'FOOM' in this quest has become a jargon term for a specific thing:
Learn Shadow Clone jutsu
Have access to essentially unlimited chakra, somehow
Use SC for training to generate extra XP
Pump that XP into Resolve so that you can use more clones to train
If Resolve < N (N = ~60?), goto 3
Once Resolve > N, use SC to generate extra XP that will allow you to pump stats other than Resolve
If you count levels of Resolve as useless then FOOM leaves you net negative on XP for a couple of in-game years but then allows you to advance super fast thereafter (hence the term 'FOOM', which is the sound of a jet plane flying past you). If you count levels of Resolve as useful (for, e.g., not getting knocked out by the sonic attack of bats, being able to shrug off some jōnin aura attacks, being able to resist Yamanaka mindwalkers, etc), then FOOM is immensely useful right from the jump.
Point being, if you're talking about Orochimaru getting super powerful through 3D sealing then 'FOOM' isn't the right jargon.
At the meta-level, the QM's are bored with village politics and enjoy writing about badass essie's interacting. They are offering us this choice. This choice is the equivalent of Alexander the Great cutting through the Gordian Knot, an out of the box solution to many entangled problems. We should assist Sasori in necromancy.
Nope. In point of fact, both @Velorien and I will be a little sad for a little while if you go, since we won't get to write our favorite characters (Kei and Kagome respectively), plus Velorien won't be able to get the romcom shenanigans he lives for, at least not with the current characters. This sadness will go away quickly since I'm confident that writing Akatsuki will be fun -- S-rankers usually are -- and there can undoubtedly be some attractive young ladies in Rain with whom Hazō can experience accidental and embarrassing shenanigans.
Either way, don't worry about it. We are committed to having a simulationist quest and we can undoubtedly find things that we enjoy writing no matter what y'all do.
"And to be fair to him, he wasn't the only one: Jiraiya apparently had the Air Dome seal for decades and never thought of it! He went on an entire rant about this not being the way the world operated, because apparently creativity isn't something that gets taught in the Hidden Villages! Who knew!"
Hmmm
Thinking about it
Ami's master plan has the big "does Nagato follow us just because we saved him" point of failure. Working with Akatsuki might help with that. If nothing else, Nagato actually seemed to be the only stable one worth talking to. I might be letting myself be convinced to do the do, and that it would be a good idea. You know, past the fact that they're all some of the worst people in the EN, there are really quirky people in there. Plus, they might teach us stuff. That can make up for the lack of FOOMing. Or we could FOOM on the Seventh Path anyway.
Welcome to the party! This was a seriously impressive start.
As a QM I can't comment on the content or assumptions behind such a post, but I did want to note two things:
'FOOM' in this quest has become a jargon term for a specific thing:
...
...
Point being, if you're talking about Orochimaru getting super powerful through 3D sealing then 'FOOM' isn't the right jargon
In point of fact, both @Velorien and I will be a little sad for a little while if you go, since we won't get to write our favorite characters (Kei and Kagome respectively), plus Velorien won't be able to get the romcom shenanigans he lives for, at least not with the current characters. This sadness will go away quickly since I'm confident that writing Akatsuki will be fun -- S-rankers usually are -- and there can undoubtedly be some attractive young ladies in Rain with whom Hazō can experience accidental and embarrassing shenanigans.
Either way, don't worry about it. We are committed to having a simulationist quest and we can undoubtedly find things that we enjoy writing no matter what y'all do.
random idea. if tsunade doesn't approve of it, we could get the clans to lend their support directly and defy interim kage tsunade. i think this would actually be harder than just getting tsunade to agree, the only clan block that we could maybe convince being ISC.
"And to be fair to him, he wasn't the only one: Jiraiya apparently had the Air Dome seal for decades and never thought of it! He went on an entire rant about this not being the way the world operated, because apparently creativity isn't something that gets taught in the Hidden Villages! Who knew!"
On convincing Tsunade: I'm actually conflicted. To reference the full notes that our clansmate decoded, Tsunade hard-core rationalized death as a part of life a long time ago. At least for civvies.
Hm.
Okay. My general expected outcome of going to tsunade after getting Itachi to go along with it is her trying to change the queue of resurrections. If we have a list that goes
1. Jiraiya/Pain
2. Jiraiya/Pain
3. Hiruzen
4. Nin from somewhere else. Probably an enemy to Leaf, ideally one that died helping out on Nagi Island. I propose Zabuza. Not an enemy to Leaf, but to Hazō personally. Kisame and Itachi will find it funny at least.
5. Nin from somewhere else
6. Leaf nin
7. ?????
8. Profit
She'll probably care about the details a lot less. Ideally, we get Shika, Kei, and a few other thinkers in here to create an ideal list of candidates, or at least some prioritization maps. We're likely to just grab whoever we see, while trying to look for specific people. We may need to change goals if we find 12 Leaf jonin before Hiruzen or something. Tsunade might get grumpy and cause problems if this actually happens, but that's a future problem. And not treason.
Throw in an agreement that Akatsuki retains the right to recruit returnees who could upset world peace, and I think they'll be open to it.
My read of Tsunade is literally all she wants is problems off her plate - she's a temp Hokage. Let's inform her that Asuma is actually MIA, not dead. Give us the rescue mission, please, and we'll let you go back to healing people.
OH BRAIN LIGHTNING
Akatsuki should promise Tsunade to enforce non-aggression against medics, or at least those on a pilgrimage to the hospital that Akatsuki will (now) build on their lands.
Hey this gives Noburi and the rest of the Gōketsu stuff to do as well. We're the afterlife and terrorist embassy clan.
While we're working on that, the expert punchers of the Akatsuki need to go punch some Dragons. They killed the guy in charge of that.
Hopefully, Tsunade is already committed to taking care of the Dragons and just needs to be filled in. If not... we may want to convene with Enma somehow. Sealed letters across unsummonings could work, but could also be faked pretty easily. Hazō has the friggen iron nerve.
I love the idea of Itachi and Tsunade getting frustrated from the bureaucracy, then Shika and Hazō start scolding them because "this is what leadership actually entails, doing boring stuff to mitigate risk for your constituents"
Nope. In point of fact, both @Velorien and I will be a little sad for a little while if you go, since we won't get to write our favorite characters (Kei and Kagome respectively), plus Velorien won't be able to get the romcom shenanigans he lives for, at least not with the current characters.
Ej, what do you mean? We just need to bring them with us!
Hm. Who should we bring, actually? Leaf needs a sealing expert so Kagome should actually probably stay unfortunately. Mari is probably better off running around Leaf.
Kazushi deserves more screentime!
Noburi should be our acting clan head.
I am absolutely sure we'll see Ami around.
Legit harbor ~10% chance Akane is just waiting for us in Rain.
Ooh! We could have this be the mission we bring Ino on! ^_^
Assuming the Join route: How are we navigating around the fact that Hazou currently has a Severe, and therefore pretty garbage Sealing? If this is not addressed somehow, it's possible Sasori doesn't even agree to collaborate, and it definitely starts the relationship off with Hazou being in a more subservient position, since he'll just be assumed to be "pretty good for his age", not "better than Sasori, fuck you". And even if he later recovers and proves himself, that dynamic will have inertia.
If this were fixed in any way whatsoever, I would be considerably more well-disposed towards the Join route.
The two obvious ideas are to ask to delay our recruitment, or to ask for biosealing-boosted healing. The former will likely be denied, the latter will either be denied or will immediately put us in a debt they'll claim to be massive.
Assuming the Join route: How are we navigating around the fact that Hazou currently has a Severe, and therefore pretty garbage Sealing? If this is not addressed somehow, it's possible Sasori doesn't even agree to collaborate, and it definitely starts the relationship off with Hazou being in a more subservient position, since he'll just be assumed to be "pretty good for his age", not "better than Sasori, fuck you". And even if he later recovers and proves himself, that dynamic will have inertia.
Can't we just be honest that we are currently severely injured in a way that interferes with our Sealing capabilities and that it will take us time to recover? Its not like no Sealmaster ever was injured so someone of Sasori's caliber will know and accept that as possible, especially since said injuries are still visible and serious? Furthermore... I don't think we currently have *garbage* Sealing, and on top of that any rolls made to prove ourselves would likely benefit from several of our invokes. The whole thing reeks of "Pretty Damn Far" and "Out-Touched Sealing Genius", after all. If everything fails, we can use 3D Sealing as a hook, anyway - while revealing that might not be a good idea, it might be the only way we get to actually research Lithosealing if we are working under survelliance and it instantly proves our value.
Secondarily : What does the time outlook for us healing the Severe with mednin assistance look like? Given the circumstances we can't hope for a truly prodigous medic, but I assume Rain has some capable mednin, especially with Konan reportedly being into nation-building and her being a former apprentice to one of the Sannin which likely exposed her to the idea of mednin being important - even Nagato conceded the point of medical ninjutsu being a good thing in his grand monologue.
Thirdly : We are currently near the bottom of a pyramid tier in Sealing, so depending on the timeframes involved in the whole ordeal we might be able to get up to 8 extra levels in it by just spending our XP as we gain it, and that's a massive edge?
...
...
The two obvious ideas are to ask to delay our recruitment, or to ask for biosealing-boosted healing. The former will likely be denied, the latter will either be denied or will immediately put us in a debt they'll claim to be massive.
No idea about the feasibility of bioseal based healing whatsoever, but isn't that something we could get from Oro pretty easily, assuming we are willing to trade/give him 3D sealing?
Edited: Or get high-feat level healing from Tsunade, in worlds we persuade her to help us with Necromancy, or allow our recruitment by Akatsuki without yelling treason.
you know what, fucking off from all of our responsibilities and joining the Akatsuki sounds like some quintessential Naruto to me. Kishimoto would be proud of us. I say we join!
Can't we just be honest that we are currently severely injured in a way that interferes with our Sealing capabilities and that it will take us time to recover?
My model of Sasori is not particularly eager to take such context into account when vying for dominance in the dynamic. "Results, not reasons," the ninja culture says, and we would not have the chops to back up our attempts to claim greater authority.
I suppose there's the extant research notes they just took, but IIRC it's mostly Kagome's work, and feels flimsy even then.
Garbage by an S-ranker's standards, especially if the S-ranker is not particularly eager to indulge you. See Orochimaru being unimpressed with a 74 roll here.
No idea about the feasibility of bioseal based healing whatsoever, but isn't that something we could get from Oro pretty easily, assuming we are willing to trade/give him 3D sealing?
What if (as part of my plan) we meet Oro on the 7th Path later (to exchange 3D sealing), and make arrangements for healing then? Hazo getting healed literally today vs a week from now vs a month from now isn't a dealbreaker I'd think? Assuming he will be working with Sasori for months, so long as Hazo isn't useless for months that's probably fine? Also assumes Oro could heal us on the 7th Path without his lab.
What if (as part of my plan) we meet Oro on the 7th Path later (to exchange 3D sealing), and make arrangements for healing then? Hazo getting healed literally today vs a week from now vs a month from now isn't a dealbreaker I'd think?
I assume Itachi is going to take the Dog Scroll away because Hazou isn't supposed to be able to communicate with Leaf until he "earns their trust". And communicating with the freaking Orochimaru is leagues worse than with Leaf. I rather doubt it'd be allowed.
Assuming he will be working with Sasori for months, so long as Hazo isn't useless for months that's probably fine?
I'm basically assuming that the next chapter after we vote "accept", Hazou is going to be brought before Sasori, who is going to run another Sealing exam on him, i. e. present Hazou with a number of TNs he has to beat. Depending on how well he does, Sasori is going to be annoyed/indifferent/begrudgingly impressed/taken aback, and the better he does, the greater our clout will be. (In particular, if we demonstrate that we're good enough that we would've been able to beat the Akatsuki to the rift, potentially even after the handicap of "they took our research", this may potentially reframe the whole thing as "alliance of equals", not "they're doing us a favor".)
My model of Sasori is not particularly eager to take such context into account when vying for dominance in the dynamic. "Results, not reasons," the ninja culture says, and we would not have the chops to back up our attempts to claim greater authority.
I suppose there's the extant research notes they just took, but IIRC it's mostly Kagome's work, and feels flimsy even then. Garbage by an S-ranker's standards, especially if the S-ranker is not particularly eager to indulge you. See Orochimaru being unimpressed with a 74 roll here.
We do have said results, including killing a Dragon and Kakuzu, inventing Skywalkers, opening a Rift to the Pure Lands and doing advanced research on it which Akatsuki just took, as you pointed out. Then there is 3D Sealing, which we could share, as well as a large array of advanced seals of which I assume we are required to share one as per the clan shakedown demand. We also usefully exchanged notes with Orochimaru, so if we use the "severely injured" excuse (which is completely true and we are horrible at lying), I don't see why anyone would disbelieve us.
Injuries are common in the ninja world. To give an abstract example - say Gai broke both his legs and needed time to recover, would he then no longer be considered a near-Essie just because he was only performing at jounin level in taijutsu while trapped on a wheelchair for 1 month? I doubt it and suspect people would go more like : "he can do WHAT with his legs broken!?"
While injuries interfering in Sealing might be more abstract than the example given above, said interference is no less true, a fact that should be clear to the eyes of a skilled Sealmaster. If Sasori was truly so blind as to fail to recognize a peer Sealmaster when he sees one just because they are temporarily injured and cannot perform anywhere near their peak capability for a month or so, then he likely would not have survived this long in a ninja deathworld. All that matters is that we tangibly demonstrate our skill and value in truth.
Oh yeah by the way, we are all aware that Sasori is going to inevitably figure out Hazou's Out-Touched Genius aspect (unless we spend the entire time sandbagging), and then vivisect him to figure out what the hell is up with him? Yes? Okay, good.
Say Gai broke both his legs and needed time to recover, would he then no longer be considered a near-Essie just because he was only performing at regular jounin level in taijutsu while on a wheelchair for a month?
If Gai was an unknown, and some passing essie challenged him to a spar while he was recovering (and the injury wasn't as obvious as a wheelchair), and then Gai ignobly lost it? Yeah, he ain't getting no respect from that essie, nor from any onlookers. He'll have lost, and that's all that matters.
And in this case it's more like the wheelchair-bound Gai is challenging the essie to a spar, but asks to be understanding of his injuries and so adjust the expectations accordingly. Which would just look pathetic.
If Sasori was truly so blind as to fail to recognize a peer Sealmaster when he sees one just because he is temporarily injured and cannot perform anywhere near peak capability for a month or so, then he likely would not have survived this long in a ninja deathworld.
This isn't really about Sasori recognizing a peer sealmaster, it's about Sasori not wanting to acknowledge Hazou as a peer, so that he's able to establish more dominance in the relationship. Regardless of how good Hazou is, it'd be ideal for Sasori if Hazou really did accept just being a lab assistant who does what's told and doesn't question him. To resist that, we need to make trying to establish this dynamic laughably unfair. Sasori might or might not still try to enforce it based on superior personal power, but in that case at least everyone would know it's a sham, and we'd have more room for maneuver with regards to upturning it.
So Sasori would try to make his best to make it look to everyone — to the other Akatsuki, to himself, and to Hazou — that he's leagues ahead of Hazou as a sealmaster, so he can relegate Hazou to a purely subordinate position. We don't want that.
If Gai was an unknown, and some passing essie challenged him to a spar while he was recovering (and the injury wasn't as obvious as a wheelchair), and then Gai ignobly lost it? Yeah, he ain't getting no respect from that essie, nor from any onlookers. He'll have lost, and that's all that matters.
And in this case it's more like the wheelchair-bound Gai is challenging the essie to a spar, but asks to be understanding of his injuries and so adjust the expectations accordingly. Which would just look pathetic.
Um, but we are not an unknown in the Sealing world. I dare say our achievements at this point trump Sasori's, especially at our age. We have a host of Sealing miracles to our name already, greater than any Sealmaster in recent history, including Sasori, Jiraiya and Orochimaru :
- Skywalkers which turned the ninja world on its head
- Skyslicers which killed a Dragon and Kakuzu
- Making Sealing Jounin by age 16, which is Itachi-like.
- A host of custom jounin seals, which, to research all these within 4 years of academy graduation...
- 3D Sealing, an entire new world which we can share if need be
- Opening a Rift to the Pure Lands and doing research on it, valuable enough for Akatsuki to steal in a shakedown as a primary demand
- Written records of competent Sealing collaboration with Orochimaru - a world-class S-rank Sealmaster whom Sasori likely recognizes as more than a peer, and these are already likely in Akatsuki's hands.
I might have forgotten a bunch because there is certainly more. Either way we have credentials enough that "we are injured and can't perform at peak capacity for a while" is an impossible claim to dismiss, especially when said injuries are fresh and visible, and our Deceit is laughable. We need only be honest about it. I fail to see how a ninja that's temporarily confined to a wheelchair asking for a spar and demonstrating jounin level taijutsu prowess from said wheelchair would somehow look pathetic. If we were crippled it'd be another story but injuries heal and it is obvious that if your legs are broken you won't be nearly as good at kicking and punching as usual, but once you recover in time...
Oh yeah by the way, we are all aware that Sasori is going to inevitably figure out Hazou's Out-Touched Genius aspect (unless we spend the entire time sandbagging), and then vivisect him to figure out what the hell is up with him? Yes? Okay, good.
To your before point, I misread "Leaf fellows" as family, so true. Oro contact is much less likely to be allowed. Plausibly it could be negotiated for as part of the overall bargain, under supervision of course.
Edit: Also, a good point I hadn't considered. Presumably rest of Akatsuki could overrule him for resurrections purposes though?
So I still think Akatsuki quest is probably not a great idea, still predicated on the belief that Itachi may well be lying and just wants to get us into a compromising state where we are out of options. That said, if we assume good faith for the offer, it seems likely that they have some sort of medical solution that means we would not need Orochimaru. This seems likely to me as they are frequently in combat, and also Hidan had weird skywalkers that were not subject to explosions or becoming wet, which made me think biosealed skywalkers immediately, though that is a hunch.
TL;DR: If we are pursuing Akatsuki deal, we can ask if they can help with our severe I think, and reasonably expect that they have a solution.
- Skywalkers which turned the ninja world on its head
- Skyslicers which killed a Dragon and Kakuzu
- Making Sealing Jounin by age 16, which is Itachi-like.
- A host of custom jounin seals, which, to research these at our age...
- 3D Sealing, an entire discipline which we can share if need be
- Opening a Rift to the Pure Lands and doing research on it, valuable enough for Akatsuki to steal in a shakedown as a primary demand
- Written records of competent Sealing collaboration with Orochimaru - a world-class S-rank Sealmaster whom Sasori likely recognizes as more than a peer, and these are already likely in Akatsuki's hands.
- I might have forgotten a bunch because there is certainly more. Either way we have credentials enough that "we are injured and can't perform at peak capacity for a while" is an impossible claim to disbelieve, especially when our injuries are still fresh and visible, and our Deceit is laughable.
Skywalkers: Kagome did those, we just came up with the idea.
Skyslicers: Not a novel seal idea, just a creative application of an already known seal.
So Hazou bribed his Kage to get a shiny new rank. Big deal. (See Kiba trying this approach here, likewise in order to resist acknowledging Hazou's now-superior status.)
Merely learning some extant seals seems weak to me. Sure, if Sasori were to make a careful, unbiased review, that would stand out as evidence of Hazou's ability. But he isn't going to do that.
I would prefer not to leak that. Also, we still haven't infused even one lithoseal.
We didn't open it, a sealing failure/Jashin did. Most of the research was, again, done by Kagome.
Okay, I guess that one goes through. But it's also weak.
Factually speaking, Hazou has no S-rank feats he has accomplished by rolling big Sealing numbers. That's the ground truth. Even when we were rolling big Sealing numbers, we mostly did it to speed up lower-level research, not to hit TNs that strictly require that. (IIRC. I admittedly didn't pay much attention to that stuff, but that's my impression based on the meme of our never researching anything + the circumstances around the latest sealing failure.)
And so if you want to spin up a narrative of Hazou not actually being all that impressive, you definitely can.
Edit: Oh, and in the two cases we know of where Hazou was evaluated for his ability by peers — the sealing exam for the spec-jounin rank, and Orochimaru — it involved Hazou rolling Sealing vs. TN live. Not a careful review of his past accomplishments; an undeniable demonstration of skill.
I mean sure, if Sasori wants to be a dick and lowball Hazou's ability and ignore the fact that he is severely injured impeding it massively, he could do that. While remaining perfectly aware that he is consciously lowballing him, because there is no way he fails to notice that we are on the figurative wheelchair, especially if he is told that outright. Its not like its difficult to verify. The question thus becomes, why is the default stance assumed to be "Sasori wants to act dismissive of our skill"?
The only thing that matters to Sasori is whether we are skilled in truth, which there is no way he fails to notice. He can underplay it yes, because we can't perform at S-rank level right now due to injuries, but what reason does he have to do so? Even if we were a Sage-level Sealmaster, he could still force us to run errands for him if he wants to, he has the position of power here, so in his eyes the more skilled we are, the better. And its just a matter of some mednin-accelerated healing before we easily exceed his expectations.
As for revealing Lithosealing - how exactly do we plan to level it in the future if we are to keep it secret from Sasori who will be puppet-breathing down our necks at all times? And mind you, 3D Sealing is likely to be massively useful to Project Necromancy at a competent level, considering its gargantuan chakra requirements and the properties of Runes vs Seals which make the latter a much better fit for the task. Revealing Sealing : Sage Edition to Akatsuki would buy us a lot of trust, in our ability and of the personal kind both.
I think Noumero just listed all the ways that could happen. FMPOV anyone not already intimately familiar with Hazo is likely to consider him creative and talented but not recognize that he's capable of getting 120+ on a sealing roll with prep.
edit for clarity: I don't think this requires a biased point of view. Most of our most impressive work has simply not been obvious to anyone not personally witnessing it, or isn't based on raw sealing skill. I do think that Sasori is likely to consider Hazo a normal amount of skilled based on what can be observed.
I think Noumero just listed all the ways that could happen. FMPOV anyone not already intimately familiar with Hazo is likely to consider him creative and talented but not recognize that he's capable of getting 120+ on a sealing roll with prep.
I would expect an S-rank Sealmaster to recognize the extent to which injuries inhibit ones ability (though maybe not their theoretical knowledge) in the field just as easily as an average person would connect the dots between "being on a wheelchair" and "taijutsu prowess". Are we expecting Sasori to never ever in his life have suffered a serious injury and thus observed on himself the detoriation of his Sealing ability until it healed?
I could see the argument working if we did not specifically point out that we are injured and/or didn't have the credentials. But our credentials are sky-high, our injury is fresh and visibly debilitating and our Deceit score is laughable, so the truth on that is plain to see.
