'Cause he's got a lot of knowledge that would help a lot of people.
Unless the memory loss is permanent, this won't be a problem, and if it is, we'll have hopefully cracked location and retrieval so we can get him quickly enough it doesn't matter. From there, we lock him up in moderately protective bubble guarded by people who actually have chakra.

The Pure Lands make one hell of a prison.
 
Unless the memory loss is permanent, this won't be a problem, and if it is, we'll have hopefully cracked location and retrieval so we can get him quickly enough it doesn't matter. From there, we lock him up in moderately protective bubble guarded by people who actually have chakra.

The Pure Lands make one hell of a prison.
Oh, if the memory loss isn't permanent, then I'm all for that.
 
Also even though we disagree about oro I think you should approve of me correcting facts. people might have believed Marshals interpretation as the undisputed fact. I reminded people it was only an interpretation
Uhhhhhh no. He explicitly was trying to force Hazou to tell him about Iron Nerve, what are you talking about? And then he literally told Mari he was expecting Kei to be at his estate by morning. There was no overreaction, he was very up front about what he was doing.
 
Unless the memory loss is permanent, this won't be a problem, and if it is, we'll have hopefully cracked location and retrieval so we can get him quickly enough it doesn't matter. From there, we lock him up in moderately protective bubble guarded by people who actually have chakra.

The Pure Lands make one hell of a prison.
Hopefully its magical handwaving memory loss and The QMs and The Thread don't have to get a neurological degree to go along with.

Minerology
Meteorology
Explosive Engineering

and various social subcategories of psychology.
 
Uhhhhhh no. He explicitly was trying to force Hazou to tell him about Iron Nerve, what are you talking about? And then he literally told Mari he was expecting Kei to be at his estate by morning. There was no overreaction, he was very up front about what he was doing.
Let's be clear that Oro's current status as a sociopath doesn't mean he isn't redeemable, but people don't get past their trauma/past/mental health issues without working with people they respect.

Oro doesn't respect anyone currently alive except for perhaps a few of the Akatsuki and Tsunade.

But right now, at absolute best, he's a massive jerk.
 
I am confused about how the Iron nerve thing happened, especially about how the mechanics and narrative intersect. Oro winning the social roll was able to make Hazou give up clan secrets without any threats, while Hazou wasn't able to make those kids in Neck talk even though he held their lives and possible torture in his hand. Hazou was able to resist Zabuza's aura briefly before. One possibility is that Oro was so interested that he unconsciously let his aura seep through to influence Hazou (he would still notice it's release eventually but by the time he noticed and pulled it back it hazou would have already revealed the secrets). And the aura was weak enough for Hazou to resist if he truly cared about clan secrets but he was just a wimp and folded.

I don't remember the exact quote of him telling Kei to be at his estate, but the feeling I got is that that's what he wanted and expected to happen. Not that he was ordering her to come and would do threats if she didn't.
Unless you mean that her coming to his estate implies he would forcibly dissect her, in which case I disagree. He could offer her enough goodies to get her to agree. Or noninvasively study her, like he did when we rented the dragon parts.
 
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Oro winning the social roll was able to make Hazou give up clan secrets without any threats, while Hazou wasn't able to make those kids in Neck talk even though he held their lives and possible torture in his hand.
The gap between Hazo and those genin (newly-frocked chuunin?) is nothing compared to the gap between Hazo and Orochimaru.

Orochimaru didn't just win the roll, he destroyed Hazo entirely. Hazo eked out a series of very small successes over a period of time, because his social stats are garbage.

Orochimaru is terrifying because if you look into his eyes your hindbrain recognizes immediately that he could flay you alive with no more effort than you eat a sandwich and far fewer compunctions. Hazo is not scary. He can act scary, but it's not part of his soul.

Orochimaru is an apex predator.
Hazou was able to resist Zabuza's aura briefly before.
Orochimaru makes Zabuza look like a child, and Zabuza didn't roll intimidation.
I don't remember the exact quote of him telling Kei to be at his estate, but the feeling I got is that that's what he wanted and expected to happen. Not that he was ordering her to come and would do threats if she didn't.
Orochimaru didn't talk to Kei. He told Mari to send Kei to his estate. Mari was very clear that this would be an awful idea, so we can be pretty clear that if she showed up she would not leave whole - mentally, physically, or both. If she showed up, leaving would not be an option for her, and if she didn't show up that day, she'd eventually disappear.

When Kei and Hazo discussed it with Asuma...
"Sir, if you give Orochimaru tacit content, we will be killed. And then, Leaf will riot."

"Yes," Asuma agreed. "It will. A clan head. The Nara consort. A KEI co-ordinator. I will have half of Leaf at my door, demanding that I rein in Orochimaru at once."
Asuma concurred with their assessment that Orochimaru was going to kill both Hazo and Kei. And he did so again, below.
"So what do you do, Hazō the Hokage? If the clans are unhappy, the worst they can do is depose you. If Orochimaru is unhappy, the worst he can do is doom Leaf to destruction at the hands of its enemies."

Silence.

"You are asking us to die," Kei whispered.

"I order shinobi to lay their lives on the line for Leaf every day, Keiko," Asuma said. "You signed yours away when you joined the Leaf military."
You are wrong about Orochimaru as a simple matter of what the text says, unless you think that you have a firmer grip on Orochimaru's character than Asuma, Kei, and Hazo combined.

E:
"Lady Nara, I am dispatching you to Isan, to negotiate reinforcements with Elder Takahashi and the Isan Council in accordance with the terms of our new military alliance."

A mission outside the village, alone but for a small escort, immediately after coming to Orochimaru's attention.

Then again, surely Orochimaru wouldn't sabotage a vital mission in wartime for purely selfish purposes?

Except it was by no means beyond Orochimaru's power to disappear Kei while leaving her escort untouched. With time being of the essence, they'd forge ahead to Isan instead of turning back, and Leaf would still get its reinforcements—just without the benefit of Kei's personal influence. Or, if Orochimaru was more patient, he could just estimate her return time and catch her on the way back.

Hazō could see each of these thoughts going through Kei's head as she sat motionless next to him. He could see Shikamaru staring straight ahead, thinking desperately, looking for a way out.
Again, here, it seems pretty clear that Kei's sure that if she left the village (during wartime!) Orochimaru would snatch her, Shikamaru was also worried...like, he wanted to dissect her and didn't care about social norms. He was never going to pay her or negotiate: he was going to take what he wanted.
The knives vanished and the world coagulated into existence around her. She was on her knees, bowed forward with her arms wrapped around her body the way she had been after each time her uncle finished their games. The taste of blood was on her lips; at first she thought she had bitten them but no, there were sanguine tears dripping from her ears, across her cheeks, to gather in fat drops on her lips before plummeting to the sanded wooden floor.

"Tell your daughter to report to my lab in the morning," the monster said, disinterested and remote. He turned and left.
Right, we did actually get to see how Orochimaru 'asked' Mari about Kei.

He hit her with his aura so hard she bled out of her ears and eyes. A nice, normal request. Right?
"Ma'am, please," Hazō said, struggling for breath. "Please, are we wrong? Tell me that Orochimaru would never do something like this in pursuit of research he found sufficiently interesting."

The mountain shuddered uncertainly and then faded gradually away. Tsunade said nothing, sitting motionless with lips pursed as though biting a sour fruit.
And again, even Tsunade, the person alive who knows him better than anyone, couldn't actually say he wasn't going to do something awful.

This is not a difference of opinion or matter of interpretation. What you proposed isn't just wrong, it's actively contradicted by every relevant section of the text.

(I will note here that this is not uncharacteristic of a lot of the stuff you post; @Left-Hand Mutant captured some of this in the feedback he gave you but this is another example.)
 
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The gap between Hazo and those genin (newly-frocked chuunin?) is nothing compared to the gap between Hazo and Orochimaru.
Hazou holding their lives in his hands should be an equalizer.

Orochimaru is terrifying because if you look into his eyes your hindbrain recognizes immediately that he could flay you alive with no more effort than you eat a sandwich and far fewer compunctions. Hazo is not scary. He can act scary, but it's not part of his soul.
being terrifying shouldn't be enough to bend over and divulge clan secrets if no threat has been made.

Mari was very clear that this would be an awful idea, so we can be pretty clear that if she showed up she would not leave whole - mentally, physically, or both
i think mari is irrational when it comes to Oro. she did not help with the dragon part negotiations at all when he was there.
but also it does not need to be likely for Oro to dissect kei for it to be an awful idea. as long as there is a sizable possibility, and you don't think there are many benefits to doing so

You are wrong about Orochimaru as a simple matter of what the text says, unless you think that you have a firmer grip on Orochimaru's character than Asuma, Kei, and Hazo combined.
Kei is overly pessimistic. I do not trust hazou's opinion of oro after he has been shown to not give oro the benefit of the doubt.
It is possible that Asuma was saying leaf would riot, if and only if oro actually abducted them. And that in the second quote he was talking about the worst case situation. And that asuma was more focused on making hazou like him then revealing his full opinion to hazou (i suspect asuma does that a lot). But this reasoning feels a little wrong, so for now let's say there is a high chance that Asuma thought Oro would dissect kei, although that statement also feels wrong to me. I do respect Asuma's socials and as hokage he would have info on Oro.
Contrast that with shika who thought it was more probable than not that Oro would dissect kei. More probable than not is not certainty or even enough for a court of law in modern times.
And again, even Tsunade, the person alive who knows him better than anyone, couldn't actually say he wasn't going to do something awful.
Tsunade could not be certain Oro wouldn't do it. Not being certain is a very weak statement, I'd say the same about hazou. I even think it's possible kei would say the same about hazou, although i wouldn't put high odds on that.
Tsunade did however, think Oro would probably not do it. She is less unbiased than shika, but is also more informed about Oro.

He hit her with his aura so hard she bled out of her ears and eyes. A nice, normal request. Right?
that was a dick move yes and a point against his character.

This is not a difference of opinion or matter of interpretation. What you proposed isn't just wrong, it's actively contradicted by every relevant section of the text.

(I will note here that this is not uncharacteristic of a lot of the stuff you post
thanks for pointing this out. it would be beneficial if people pointed out the supposed contradictions more often
 
Let's be clear that Oro's current status as a sociopath doesn't mean he isn't redeemable, but people don't get past their trauma/past/mental health issues without working with people they respect.

Oro doesn't respect anyone currently alive except for perhaps a few of the Akatsuki and Tsunade.

But right now, at absolute best, he's a massive jerk.
Also Hazou, to enough of an extent to share his 3D sealing notes... (which, I think, is reason enough to reciprocate; he didn't have to, and we want to encourage prosocial behavior. Couple months ain't nothing.)
 
Hazou holding their lives in his hands should be an equalizer.
And yet, it wasn't. Your model of reality is wrong.
being terrifying shouldn't be enough to bend over and divulge clan secrets if no threat has been made.
And yet, it was. Your model of reality is wrong.
Tsunade did however, think Oro would probably not do it. She is less unbiased than shika, but is also more informed about Oro.
She was sufficiently convinced that Orochimaru would do it that she left the hospital for the sole purpose of making Orochimaru swear not to harm or further coerce Kei and Hazo.

She did this for free. It took her probably an hour because she had to take 20 minutes to stabilize patients and then she had to get there and back. She charged a fortune for 15 minutes of her time but spent four times that for free. The only logical explanation for that is that she thought he'd do it.

I would appreciate you clearly acknowledging that you were definitely and completely wrong about this.
 
So Sasori can't rez Pain
As much of a threat as Sasori represents, I'd rather have Sasori kicking than let Orochimaru loot his stuff and further concentrate scary sealing knowledge into himself. Sasori and Orochimaru both alive represent two separate threats with their own expertise in sealing. Let's not make that Orochimaru with one fewer rival/deterrent and more forbidden lore.

Also, given that Sasori is a sealmaster who survived to the point that he has, I'd be amazed if he didn't have backups for anything relevant that other Akatsuki members could use.
 
And yet, it wasn't. Your model of reality is wrong
I am confused about the iron nerve incident, but am not yet confident I am wrong but it is possible. I've already stated some possible explanations earlier.
She was sufficiently convinced that Orochimaru would do it that she left the hospital for the sole purpose of making Orochimaru swear not to harm or further coerce Kei and Hazo.
No she did it because the nara threatened to leave leaf.
I would appreciate you clearly acknowledging that you were definitely and completely wrong about this.
I do not acknowledge this.
 
No she did it because the nara threatened to leave leaf.
Patently untrue. The only conditions under which the Nara would leave were if Oro followed through on his threats or if they didn't get back to the Nara compound quickly.
"They are asking you to help rein in the destructive impulses of your former comrade in arms," Shikamaru said. "At the risk of stating the obvious, what do you suppose the outcome would be were he to actually kidnap a Clan Head for medical experimentation?"

"He wouldn't do that."

"With respect, Lady Tsunade, I believe it to be more probable than not. I say this based on a minimized-bias examination of the evidence available to me and I say it with the full weight of my office as Clan Head of the Nara. I also state, for the record, that if Orochimaru does this thing, or if I become convinced that he has done this thing, then the Nara Clan will depart from Leaf forever, as is our right under the Founding Charter. Before leaving, I will inform all of the other Clan Heads of the reasons for the Nara's departure. I will not advise them on what course of action to take, but I am essentially certain that the Yamanaka and the Akimichi will go with us. I am confident that at least the Aburame and Inuzuka will go as well. If you would like me to perform a full analysis of the probable actions of the other founding clans then I will need twelve hours."

Tsunade raised an eyebrow. "Orochimaru expresses interest in your wife and you're going to destroy Leaf."

"No, ma'am. He may express whatever interest he wishes, provided it is done in a polite and prosocial manner. What he may not do is cause her to feel threatened, either for her own safety or that of her loved ones."

Hazō could see the muscle in Tsunade's jaw jumping as her teeth ground together. He thanked his lucky stars that Shikamaru had vetoed the idea of telling Tsunade about Noburi's threat to stop providing chakra-transfer support, or Kei's threat to disrupt the Seventh Path embassy. The Nara's far deeper political credit and reputation gave Shikamaru more room to maneuver without getting crushed.

"I will note," Shikamaru continued, "that I have left contingency orders at the Nara estate. These orders will be opened four hours from now unless I have returned to the Nara estate with Kei and Hazō beside me, and all three of us have passed a battery of tests intended to demonstrate that we are mentally competent and not under duress. If any of us do not appear or do not pass the tests, those orders will be opened and the Nara clan will be gone from Leaf within the week."
If she was convinced that Oro wasn't going to do anything, she could have let them go back to the Nara compound fully confident that the Nara would remain in Leaf indefinitely.

You haven't read the source material lately, or perhaps accurately. You keep making mistakes about what was said, at least. It makes it very difficult to engage with you because your ideas are based on faulty premises.
 
I had not considered that. But I think she did it because shika showed how important he viewed the situation, to give him peace of mind.

edit: it wasn't a mistake in remembering what was said. but a failure to consider the possible implications of it
 
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I had not considered that. But I think she did it because shika showed how important he viewed the situation, to give him peace of mind.
You think that she took an hour away from her hospital, for free, so he'd sleep better at night, after demanding a fortune from him for 15 minutes of her time for the exact same thing (e.g. his peace of mind)?

She would have charged him or gone on her own later if that were the case. Occam's Razor slices your supposition to shreds.

Again: it does not seem like you've read the material recently or thoroughly. It makes it hard to engage with you when your opinions are contradicted by the text.
 
You think that she took an hour away from her hospital, for free, so he'd sleep better at night, after demanding a fortune from him for 15 minutes of her time for the exact same thing (e.g. his peace of mind)?
yes. a powerful clan head sleeping better at night is very good for leaf's internal political situation. charging him sounds plausible but it's also plausible that she doesn't charge him. again, he was taking this issue very seriously.

Again: it does not seem like you've read the material recently or thoroughly. It makes it hard to engage with you when your opinions are contradicted by the text.
I have glanced your linked chapters recently, not thoroughly yes. But it has not yet caused my opinions to be contradicted by the text, so I think it is not necessary for me to read them more thoroughly yet. I don't know if you saw my edit
edit: it wasn't a mistake in remembering what was said. but a failure to consider the possible implications of it
You also mention multiple instances. But this example is the only one I can recall you mentioning
 
yes. a powerful clan head sleeping better at night is very good for leaf's internal political situation. charging him sounds plausible but it's also plausible that she doesn't charge him. again, he was taking this issue very seriously.
Then why didn't she do it for free the first time, if she values Shikamaru's peace of mind more than she values an hour at her hospital?

Your version of Tsunade values Shikamaru's peace of mind more than time in her hospital but less than cash. Therefore, she values cash more than her time in the hospital. But we know this is not true because she spends all her time in the hospital when it would be trivial for her to make a lot more money outside of the hospital.

Unless you're suggesting that she's completely irrational, what you're saying makes no logical sense.
 
Then why didn't she do it for free the first time, if she values Shikamaru's peace of mind more than she values an hour at her hospital?
She didn't know Shika was willing to leave Leaf over it before she heard him out. And so before hearing him out she charged money.
Your version of Tsunade values Shikamaru's peace of mind more than time in her hospital but less than cash
I think she just didn't think of charging him for the extra time. I didn't think of the possibility until you pointed it out
 
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