I'm actually not sure if we want to pursue Cold Seals given the negotiations happening.
Just spotted this. I would like to, since it means we can give Harumitsu a bunch of solid tech trees that improve the amount of veterancy he has, which improves his survivability..
But I also recognize that an abbreviated voting cycle isn't the time to go for it.

Anyhow, I'm going to sign off for the day. Chronic migraines suck. I'll try to glance at the thread tomorrow before work.
 
How are we going to convince him to open the Rift in the first place without telling him what it's for? It's a dangerous surgery. He's not going to do it just cuz' Hazou askes him. He doesn't like Hazou.

This is a solvable problem. Trade Asuma the secret of opening the Rift for his full assistance rezzing Akane (and Mio's sister). I am also completely against rezzing Pain. That's just not an option IMO. I agree this does lock us out of that.

So I think just trading Asuma for his help with Akane is the best solution. It's not like he's against it.

I think that there isn't much chance of convincing Naruto to go along if we haven't told Asuma first. In fact, I expect him to ask Hazou straight away given Hazou's track record. So unless we lie to him about it I don't see this working. And if we do lie we've completely fucked ourselves long-term.

I just don't see Naruto agreeing to even open the Rift unless Asuma has okayed it. If you have a compelling reason why he wouldn't check with Asuma first, I'm all ears.
Alright, at this point I'm just going to point you at the time last night when I answered these very questions for someone else. If you've read that and are still confused as to what my plan is, feel free to ask further questions that aren't trivially answered by what I've already said.
So, let's walk through this as Naruto Uzumaki, loyal Leaf-nin who wants to believe us but still doubts the seance because for all he knows we heard about the Toad Thrust and forgot about it.

Hazou claims that the O'Uzu rift leads to the Pure Lands. You've read the report and would like it to be true, but you aren't convinced and need more proof before you believe. You know or at least strongly suspect that Asuma's in the same boat of waiting for more evidence.

Hazou says that he can open the rift, and he needs your help. You go along with this because you want it to be true. You see the scenery on the other side like he said, but that wasn't the part you were doubting. Until Hazou finds someone to rez, your priors haven't shifted. Maybe you ask him to go looking for someone as proof of concept, but maybe not. After all, this is the research trip so that they can better equip themselves for a real expedition, and the threat of Akatsuki looms over this location while there's no guarantee anyone is nearby the rift site on the other side (if it even is the afterlife in the first place). You relay all this to Asuma but this doesn't shift his priors for the same reasons it didn't shift yours.

Hazou's ready to go for a proper expedition. In this hypothetical we couldn't move the rift so we're trying stealth necromancy instead. You open the rift and Hazou walks in, and you close the rift behind him. You'll have your answers when you go back to re-open the rift, but for now you still know nothing that you didn't already know. You relay this to Asuma, the two of you both privately hope that Hazou's right and your respective loved ones can be saved, but epistemically your stance still hasn't changed: wait and see, proof will either come or it won't.

This is stealth necromancy, so Kagome goes back to exfiltrate Hazou without Naruto present. Naruto, and thus Asuma, is still under the impression that Hazou is still exploring the other side of the rift. Kagome exfiltrates Hazou and whoever Hazou found, any and all options that we've obtained from finding and rezzing people have been actualized. Maybe we found Jiraiya and he's ready to march back into Leaf and take the Hat from Asuma. Maybe we found Pein and successfully convinced him to owe us a life-debt and enshrine Uplift in the new world order. Whatever the gains, we have them now, and Naruto is none the wiser.

But maybe stealth necromancy hits a snag, and Kagome can't sync up with Hazou to exfiltrate him. Worrying for Hazou's safety, Kagome returns to Leaf and brings Naruto to the rift, just as Naruto expected would happen since he had no clue stealth necromancy was even an option. Naruto opens the rift again and Kagome et al. goes in, and hopefully Hazou's safe enough to exfiltrate. Whoever Hazou found is now known to Naruto, as well as the fact that this is truly the afterlife. Only in this scenario does Naruto run back to Leaf and tell Asuma to secure the O'Uzu site as soon as possible.

At the end of the day, the only thing that constitutes meaningful information to Naruto is the actual resurrecting of someone. Everything else is stuff he has no reason to disbelieve, which already proved insufficient to fully convince him. We will have, at the very minimum, until Hazou first escapes the Pure Lands before Naruto truly believes, and if we play our cards right we may have even more time than that.

I note, for instance, that even if we move the rift and remove the Akatsuki OPSEC problem we would still need Naruto's help opening it, and would thus similarly wind up exiting the rift under the watchful gaze of an unquestionably loyal Leaf-nin. (While we would not need to let the rift close again if it is in a safe location, by the same token we do not need to leave the scene quickly to avoid Akatsuki attention, and consequently Naruto is far more likely to stay there and wait through the preliminary exploration until we have proof of concept). That is to say, Naruto running back to Asuma as soon as we rez our first person isn't an unusual fail state of stealth necromancy, it is the expected outcome unless we have some way to circumvent him.

Incidentally, it's not implausible that Primordial Sealing will allow us to circumvent Naruto entirely. If it can channel vaster amounts of ambient chakra than the paper Minato seals can, it's not implausible that it will work as a serviceable substitute for Naruto's bijuu power. If this proves true, not only stealth necromancy but Plan A "move the rift" necromancy becomes much easier for us. But the core of stealth necromancy is that even without this innovation we do not necessarily need Naruto for our exfiltration, which means we can buy precious time and initiative by having only Team Uplift standing outside the rift as it opens. No Leaf, no Akatsuki, nobody even suspecting a thing, and all without needing to move the rift in the first place. I'd say it's a perfectly serviceable Plan B.
I confess to being irritated here, but don't take this as a slight against you in particular. I'm just not inclined to write the same effortpost twice in 24 hours.
 
Alright, at this point I'm just going to point you at the time last night when I answered these very questions for someone else. If you've read that and are still confused as to what my plan is, feel free to ask further questions that aren't trivially answered by what I've already said.
As far as I'm concerned you don't address my point that:

1) to even attempt "stealth" necromancy Asuma will need to be told that we are attempting such (because Naruto will demand it)
2) therefore, we will need to lie about the success of such a mission if we want to keep it from Asuma
3) this is a bad idea, and we should attempt to compromise with him instead.
 
As far as I'm concerned you don't address my point that:

1) to even attempt "stealth" necromancy Asuma will need to be told that we are attempting such (because Naruto will demand it)
2) therefore, we will need to lie about the success of such a mission if we want to keep it from Asuma
3) this is a bad idea, and we should attempt to compromise with him instead.
We'll tell Asuma that we intend to open the rift and explore the other side, keeping the rift closed in the interim to avoid Akatsuki attention. Naruto will know as well. Both of them are skeptical that the rift leads to the afterlife, and they will wait until we come back with proof one way or the other. My plan involves us completing the first resurrection while the two of them think we're still in the Pure Lands, giving us initiative and options that we didn't previously have.

There. I already covered all of that, in the very post I quoted earlier. I am not going to repeat myself a third time. Ask questions that I haven't already answered, please.
 
since it means we can give Harumitsu a bunch of solid tech trees that improve the amount of veterancy he has, which improves his survivability..
I don't want to negotiate with Ritsuo. It's going to be unpleasant and boring and it's unlikely that we get what we want.

If we want to buff Harumitsu, we can just give him some seals. Ritsuo can't complain about that, nor does he need to be involved: senseis get to give their students stuff.

If getting the Cold Seal is important to us, we can mention to Harumitsu that we'd like it but don't think we'd be able to get it from Ritsuo. From there, either he can go to Ritsuo and request permission to trade it to us (he can say that we really really want it and he can get a good deal) or we do it on the side, either with or without his knowledge.
 
We'll tell Asuma that we intend to open the rift and explore the other side, keeping the rift closed in the interim to avoid Akatsuki attention. Naruto will know as well. Both of them are skeptical that the rift leads to the afterlife, and they will wait until we come back with proof one way or the other. My plan involves us completing the first resurrection while the two of them think we're still in the Pure Lands, giving us initiative and options that we didn't previously have.

There. I already covered all of that, in the very post I quoted earlier. I am not going to repeat myself a third time. Ask questions that I haven't already answered, please.
What does this gain us? If we aren't rezzing Pain. How is this better than the counterfactual situation where we tell them everything and trade them our Rift knowledge for their help with getting resurrections going.

If we are rezzing Pain, I can see the appeal, but if we ever return with resurrected ninja they will know we lied. IMO we can trust them to help us find Akane in exchange for us using the Rift to kill Akatsuki and win Leaf world dominance.
 
I see now why other clan leaders just disappear these people. They're annoying.

Also, Mio is right for the wrong reasons. We're hypocritical only because for some reason, we're trying to act like she and her sister are as important as Noburi and Mari and they're just not. Yes we changed more when our girlfriend died. Duh. She's way more important than you and your sister, especially to us. It's just common sense. There's no discourse to be had here but we keep being soft and placating people and we should tell them straight up. Yes, the core is more important, yes you'll get less support than them. That's how literally everything ever works.

But also no, we're not holding anything back. We've been super generous.

Then we should disappear Mio for the audacity.
 
Honestly none of the current necromancy plans are likely to succeed. Because best case a new world war is popping if days after it is revealed that leaf or the Akatsuki have resurrection
 
Honestly none of the current necromancy plans are likely to succeed. Because best case a new world war is popping if days after it is revealed that leaf or the Akatsuki have resurrection
IMO the best bet is to keep all the rezzed people at a black site, and only reveal the existence of necromancy when we have enough military strength to challenge Akatsuki.

If we can move the Rift, this strategy should give us plenty of time. If we can't, we'll need to be much more careful about opening and closing it. So much so that we may need to actually rez Pain (ugh)
 
What does this gain us? If we aren't rezzing Pain. How is this better than the counterfactual situation where we tell them everything and trade them our Rift knowledge for their help with getting resurrections going.

If we are rezzing Pain, I can see the appeal, but if we ever return with resurrected ninja they will know we lied. IMO we can trust them to help us find Akane in exchange for us using the Rift to kill Akatsuki and win Leaf world dominance.
Very well. This is a pretty reasonable counterargument, and I honestly wouldn't be all that surprised if it becomes one of the dominant opinions when we start finalizing our actual necromancy strategy.

Mostly what I've been trying to do with my theorycrafting about stealth necromancy is that I want to figure out what is within our means and I want to keep our options open. If the option we go with is "full disclosure and open cooperation", then so be it. I am pretty confident at this point that we could keep our first resurrection secret from both Akatsuki and Leaf if we want to, but that only means it's an option on the table.

That said, I do lean in the direction of cutting Leaf out of the first resurrection. While you strongly reject the idea that rezzing Pein could be the right play, I think it has potential value if circumstances align correctly. This is actually at the core of necromancy expeditions, for me: we have no clue who we'll find, so it's impossible to figure out what options will open up to us. Many of those options are compatible with Leaf cooperation, like if we find Gai and Kakashi first or some other Leaf heroes, but what if we find Tobirama, a man who could easily take the Hat back but would likely be much worse for our goals than Asuma? What if we find Hiashi? What if we find someone else we don't even know about, who knows things that change our understanding of the situation?

And it's easy to say "Well if we find Tobirama we just don't bring him to the rift site in the first place, easy." but once Leaf takes control of the rift site it's not Hazou that's going to be going in there and finding people to extract, it's probably gonna be ANBU agents or other ninja that Asuma can trust implicitly. If they find Tobirama in there, I'd bet he comes back.

"Leaf doesn't know that we've resurrected people" easily collapses into "Leaf knows that we've resurrected people" if our findings mean we can let Leaf know without compromising our goals. But "Leaf knows that we've resurrected people" is a genie that can't be put back in the bottle. It means we've got one chance to tip the odds in our direction and if we don't then the outcome is up to chance and someone else's value function. And we need to decide before we go in, because we won't know who we find until the expedition is already underway.

So I view stealth necromancy, specifically the expanded version that keeps the first resurrection secret from both Akatsuki and Leaf, the route that keeps our options open the most. And with as many moving parts and unknown unknowns as necromancy has, I don't think it's wise to foreclose options this early even if it sounds really likely that giving control to Asuma is in our best interest (which is a judgement I would personally disagree with until we know more).
 
I see now why other clan leaders just disappear these people. They're annoying.
I'm struggling to remain civil but what you've posted is so devoid of any trace of morality or compassion that I feel I need to say something, if only to prevent a threadlock.

It is wrong to murder people because they're annoying. It is even more wrong to murder people who are annoying because they are deeply traumatized because they're grieving the sudden death of a close family member.
Also, Mio is right for the wrong reasons. We're hypocritical only because for some reason, we're trying to act like she and her sister are as important as Noburi and Mari and they're just not.
We aren't? She said that, and our obvious rebuttal - which is at least vaguely contained within my plan - is that she didn't grieve Akane like she grieved her sister, either. The people closest to us will have that sort of impact, and people further from us won't. She has a reasonable point about our not having spent any time getting to know her or her sister, but you're accusing us of hypocrisy without any actual evidence.
Yes we changed more when our girlfriend died. Duh. She's way more important than you and your sister, especially to us. It's just common sense.
Let's all take a moment before we announce that some people are objectively more important than others, maybe? Akane was a more useful military asset, sure. But they were both irreplaceable people and their deaths were both sad.
There's no discourse to be had here but we keep being soft and placating people and we should tell them straight up. Yes, the core is more important, yes you'll get less support than them. That's how literally everything ever works.
Is your proposed course of action offering people obviously drowning in grief zero compassion, empathy, or support, even if we have obligations to them. e.g. having sworn to protect them? I hope you're either inconsistent in applying your beliefs or nowhere near a position where anyone vulnerable might rely on you or need you for anything. The line of thinking you're espousing leads to for-profit healthcare and other comparable horrors.

Having a massive problem with 'how literally everything ever works' would be a tag for the quest if it would fit.
Then we should disappear Mio for the audacity.
Are you seriously suggesting that 'people who act in contempt of decorum or with arrogant disregard for convention and accepted social norms should be murdered'?

Have you given much thought to who might qualify for death under those criteria?
 
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Very well. This is a pretty reasonable counterargument, and I honestly wouldn't be all that surprised if it becomes one of the dominant opinions when we start finalizing our actual necromancy strategy.

Mostly what I've been trying to do with my theorycrafting about stealth necromancy is that I want to figure out what is within our means and I want to keep our options open. If the option we go with is "full disclosure and open cooperation", then so be it. I am pretty confident at this point that we could keep our first resurrection secret from both Akatsuki and Leaf if we want to, but that only means it's an option on the table.

That said, I do lean in the direction of cutting Leaf out of the first resurrection. While you strongly reject the idea that rezzing Pein could be the right play, I think it has potential value if circumstances align correctly. This is actually at the core of necromancy expeditions, for me: we have no clue who we'll find, so it's impossible to figure out what options will open up to us. Many of those options are compatible with Leaf cooperation, like if we find Gai and Kakashi first or some other Leaf heroes, but what if we find Tobirama, a man who could easily take the Hat back but would likely be much worse for our goals than Asuma? What if we find Hiashi? What if we find someone else we don't even know about, who knows things that change our understanding of the situation?

And it's easy to say "Well if we find Tobirama we just don't bring him to the rift site in the first place, easy." but once Leaf takes control of the rift site it's not Hazou that's going to be going in there and finding people to extract, it's probably gonna be ANBU agents or other ninja that Asuma can trust implicitly. If they find Tobirama in there, I'd bet he comes back.

"Leaf doesn't know that we've resurrected people" easily collapses into "Leaf knows that we've resurrected people" if our findings mean we can let Leaf know without compromising our goals. But "Leaf knows that we've resurrected people" is a genie that can't be put back in the bottle. It means we've got one chance to tip the odds in our direction and if we don't then the outcome is up to chance and someone else's value function. And we need to decide before we go in, because we won't know who we find until the expedition is already underway.

So I view stealth necromancy, specifically the expanded version that keeps the first resurrection secret from both Akatsuki and Leaf, the route that keeps our options open the most. And with as many moving parts and unknown unknowns as necromancy has, I don't think it's wise to foreclose options this early even if it sounds really likely that giving control to Asuma is in our best interest (which is a judgement I would personally disagree with until we know more).
Alright, this makes sense, I agree that we should keep our options open as much as possible until we can't. I do think that this might end badly, but full cooperation might end badly too, as you've said.

I do think that there's a strong chance that we won't be able to keep our options open until after the first resurrection. In which case I think going full cooperation with Leaf is our best chance.
 
@eaglejarl @Paperclipped @Velorien
Quick question from discord. Are we required to purchase the Technique Hacking stunt immediately after we finish our apprenticeship, or are we able to hold off for a few weeks/months? That is, does completing the prerequisite instruction make us eligible to purchase the stunt or required to do so?
 
IMO the best bet is to keep all the rezzed people at a black site, and only reveal the existence of necromancy when we have enough military strength to challenge Akatsuki.

Not just the Akatsuki but also every other village. But other than that I agree with the current model that's the best outcome
 
Let's all take a moment before we announce that some people are objectively more important than others, maybe? Akane was a more useful military asset, sure. But they were both irreplaceable people and their deaths were both sad.
I don't think it's a controversial statement to say that Akane was more important to Hazou than Mio's sister (whose name I don't even remember). My reading was that @Black King was saying that they are more important to Hazou, not objectively more important. (Although I could be wrong, I've been wrong before)
 
Alright, this makes sense, I agree that we should keep our options open as much as possible until we can't. I do think that this might end badly, but full cooperation might end badly too, as you've said.

I do think that there's a strong chance that we won't be able to keep our options open until after the first resurrection. In which case I think going full cooperation with Leaf is our best chance.
The routes need to be examined in more detail by smart characters like Mari (who can predict Asuma and Naruto better than us) and Ami (master of juggling complex systems with many moving parts), yeah, but these are the seeds that I want to start cultivating. Preparations, foundational work, contingencies, if we start working on this stuff now then we'll be in a better position to make the final call when we finish our research.

And I do agree that full cooperation with Leaf isn't a bad option. After all, there's good odds we find Jiraiya first and he takes the Hat and now Uplift is back in charge of it again, or we find Minato and he's just a swell guy all around and takes the Hat and makes our situation all-around better. It's just got a chance of going wrong too, so I'm shopping around.
 
I don't think it's a controversial statement to say that Akane was more important to Hazou than Mio's sister (whose name I don't even remember). My reading was that @Black King was saying that they are more important to Hazou, not objectively more important. (Although I could be wrong, I've been wrong before)
Emphasis mine:
She's way more important than you and your sister, especially to us.
"Especially" is a pretty clear statement that she's more important generally.

I'm tired of the poison some people feel comfortable spouting.
 
If you need to take them, you could try remunerating KEI. You could have any clan ninja with KEI jutsu join the exchange, but only on the teaching side. That way, the techniques continue to be taught to the KEI population, and they don't become a clan secret."
That seems like a decent idea, I like it.

"But really, I think it's fine for you to copy down the KEI ninjutsu. I think of it kinda like the Library ninjutsu – people put them out there not because they wanted to keep things secret, but because they wanted the ninjutsu to have a positive impact on the world. Now, the exchange is a little more secret than the Library, but still, no one just teaches any jutsu to a random person and expects that jutsu to be secret forever."
What a nice, sensible young man.

"I am pleased to hear, Lord Hazō, that after the previous weeks you have decided that your public image is in fact important."
Only very reluctantly, I assure you.

However, this was not an elaborate trap. I truly give this to you freely, in full acknowledgement of the wholly correct reasons behind your orders. Please, take it."
Damn, glad to see him being sensible as well.

However, as you are well aware, as a part of the exchange, I took an oath that I would not share the ninjutsu without confirmation and tribute to the creator, and that I would not share the ninjutsu with any clan.
Did we know this? I did not know this. Certainly I don't want to forswear our family members, and it speaks well of him that he cares about his oaths.

"Thank you for the feedback. If you have anything more you need to say, just know that my door is always open."

"It's not," Jin said. "And if it were, you're rarely there."
Yeah, I was not a fan of this line being included in the plan because it is factually nowhere near true. Should have been something like 'Noburi, Mari, or myself are usually available'.

I joined a clan hoping to be treated equally, only to discover that the clan head's inner circle was treated way better than everyone else.
I mean, they're more involved in decision-making, but if you wanted that you could have asked for a position in the clan administration to prove yourself, or something along those lines. I guess she wants more techniques? Actually, what was the OPSEC policy before we voted on it? More stuff might have been kept secret than is the case now.

"This is exactly what I fucking mean," Mio said, raising her voice. "Any of us die, my sister dies, and what happens? A funeral. An engraving on a rock. But your girlfriend dies? Suddenly you're opening up a giant charity in her honor, chaining Shinji and Kazushi to their desks to run it, reconsidering your life choices and researching new seals to make yourself feel better. If it had been me that died out in the field, you know what would have happened? Funeral. Engraving. That's it.
This is a fair point, but I feel like she would be more empathetic about it if she didn't hate us.

She was lying. She'd been planning something, and whatever it was, she knew she'd already revealed too much, that the plan would be best executed if it were done all at once, rather than leaked to the primary opposition.
Uh oh.

"If a ninja were to join a clan and be abused and ostracized by them,"
That is really not the case by any reasonable interpretation of events unless there's a whole lot she's not telling us.

Asuma sighed. "At this point, I think it's just some out-of-context problem. A new seal, or ninjutsu, or Sage-forbid, a genjutsu that extracts information and implants false memories into our staff.
So that's the official story...

That said, I don't think it's wise to give you an ANBU escort, Hazō. Hidan is unpredictable, and if he finds out about the ANBU, he may think that you're only courting Jashinism on my orders and kill you over it.
That makes sense, but I didn't see it coming.

Uh oh.

Can Hazō hide that this is, in fact, a Jashin thing? Yūma may be easy to fool, but Jin is actually quite sharp.
UH OH!

Hazō would be dedicating these kills to Jashin, of course. On the off-chance Hidan asked about Hazō's mental state while he was killing the bandits, Hazō needed to be able to answer honestly in a way that would satisfy the S-ranker. Plus, if Hazō was going to be killing the bandits anyway… there was no harm in earning the favor of a god in the process.
I think this is perfectly sensible reasoning.

However, she maintains jōnin-privilige on her best ninjutsu, which are not just of the caliber that might be useful in jōnin-on-jōnin fights, but could potentially be an edge against "even greater opponents".
Okay, that makes perfect sense actually.

If you vote for it, we can have Hazō start regularly taking bandit clearing missions.
This might be a good idea, but I'm worried about what it would do to Hazō's already fragile mental state.

Hazō has attended some religious purification rituals. The Hagoromo were surprised that Hazō was there, and Hazō, after biting down his first several rude remarks, managed to take part without issue. The Hagoromo priest that performed the Fivefold Anointment on Hazō had an interesting comment. Some people had claimed that Hazō would never attend a proper religious service, and that this would be proof of his guilt. The priest was pleased to be proven otherwise, and commended Hazō for taking his spiritual health as seriously as a clan head should.
Are we expected to do more purification rituals? Or are we now considered purified and don't need to do more.

By definition, Harumistu's cold-creating seals are a Hagoromo clan secret. Hazō
But independently researching a seal which does the exact same thing would be fine, right? Maybe we should just research it ourselves and send Harumitsu some presents as a courtesy.

No sealing research was performed.
Insufficient FP? Oof.
 
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