About biosealing, keep in mind that eaglejarl said in the past that if the audience started favoring explicitly evil fucked-up options he'd stop writing for the quest. I don't know if it still stands from the chargen days but I doubt we're going to have wonderful things happen if we start operating on the logic that it's okay to be like Orochimaru because Orochimaru still has political clout as a S-ranker.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
Hmn... not sure I agree.
If med skills are following Calligraphy's "2/3" rule in biosealing, then we'd want ...40's? I think? to keep up with our Sealing? [e: 49, yeah] And people seem to think that our Sealing already surpasses Oro.
Really we need to do some biosealing, and find out how it works, ofc, but I can totally imagine that we could indeed be Oro-tier.
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Notably, we have no reason to believe that our single biggest cheat (TYS points to Sealing) would apply to Biosealing, which means we would be just another Biosealer, not an upcoming Orochimaru, as far as that is concerned. Worse still, we have ethical considerations so we would actually make a below average Sealmaster for the amount of XP we'd decide to put into that. I'll take Technique Hacking over that any day, especially when we should be scrambling to reach the afterlife before Akane is dead-dead, if that's even doable.
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Don't we?
It's sealing. the 2xTYS gets applied to Sealing, and presumably, biosealing, as a type of sealing, uses Sealing.
It could be it's own stat, ig?
We have no guarantee that it is the case is what I meant. Presumably it uses Medknow as its secondary stat the way Sealing uses Calligraphy, so I would not be surprised if it were indeed a separate skill, although I also wouldn't be surprised if it weren't.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
Eh, it probably will, I'd wager. And accordingly, we'd make an especially fast biosealer for the skill level we end up occupying, because if we're bottlenecked by Carving then we'll get a lot of shifts on each sealing roll we make.
TH is in a similar bucket where it's never going to be a primary stat and so we won't be getting the most epic jutsus out of it, but hopefully it's not to hard to get it high enough to learn the Minato seals. But if we're talking the necromancy rush, I don't think either of those stats speeds anything up (unless Minato Seal 8 turns out to not be enough), so this whole conversation would be about what we do after that's sorted.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Just to push back on this "It will take too long" narrative, let's actually look at how long it would take to bump med skills up.
I'm no longer concerned with using SC hours on notes anymore because we used to get one for free a day and it felt like a waste, but now that we will almost certainly never have the time to do that again, the XP will never get claimed without using SC for notes. And it's worth pointing out that every notes lootbox is worth more than a SC block that it replaces. When we were getting it for free we could use all our clone blocks and do notes too but now that we can't do that, notes are greatly to slightly faster than doing a typical block, though obviously only for that given skill.
4/day notes compared to .3 XP training block -> 13.3 times more XP a day for that block
3/day notes to .3 XP -> 10 times more XP
2/day notes to .3 XP -> 6.6 times more XP
1/day notes to .3 XP -> 3.3 times more XP
Additional consideration: You can read multiple note sets at once, but you may not use clones to read the same set faster. As it happens, it takes the same amount of time to read each note set for MedNin (the same is true for MedKnow.)
How many Shadow Clone blocks does Hazou have? Hazou has resolve 62, which means he can have (62 - 11 + 6) = 57 hours in a day. Divided by 3, that's 19 training blocks a day. There are 8 note sets for MedNin, and 8 note sets for MedKnow, so he could use 16 training blocks for notes and have 3 remaining.
It takes exactly 25 days for Hazou to read through all of the medical note sets using 16 clone blocks. In that time he would produce 500 notes XP for mednin, 500 notes XP for medknow, and (25 * 3 + (25 * 3 * .3)) = 98 regular XP. 500 notes XP in each skill could bring them from level 10 to about 33 each. Assuming he has no supports for either of them to be a 30, we would need to spend an additional 530 XP to get 2 10s and 2 20s, or 265 XP if those 10s and 20s are jutsu. Subtracting the 98 generated during the 25 days brings that total to 432 and 167 XP, respectively, which correlate to about 35 days of FOOM and 15 days of FOOM, respectively.
Bringing each of these skills to 39 from 33 would cost 219 XP each for a total of 438, which corresponds to about 35 more days of FOOM. The stunt itself is 125 XP, which is about 10 days of FOOM.
In total:
25 (notes binge) + 35 days (support grind, no jutsu) + 35 days (to 39) + 10 days (pay for stunt) = 105 days
25 (notes binge) + 15 days (support with jutsu) + 35 days (to 39) + 10 days (pay for stunt) = 85 days
If you were satisfied with med skills 33/33 then it would be 70 days and 50 days, respectively, to reach those levels.
I think I did my calligraphy analogue math wrong earlier. 33 corresponds to (33 * 3 / 2) = Sealing 50 with no prep, or ((33 + 16) * (3/2)) = Sealing 74 with max prep. MedSkills 39/39, assuming calligraphy analogue, correspond to (39 * (3/2)) = Sealing 59 with no prep, or ((39 + 16)*(3/2)) = Sealing 83 with max prep.
The idea that it will be some massive diversion to hit levels worth investing in is extremely likely to be wrong imo, and I will contest that narrative every time it is brought up. There are maybe social concerns (I'm skeptical cuz Asuma noted there was another biosealer in Leaf and it didn't sound like he reviled them) but like, just use biosealing to help people and the tune would change in an instant imo.
What I think is worth being concerned with is how much time we're willing to dedicate to biosealing. We already move at a glacial pace through conventional sealing backlog. Biosealing opens up a (admittedly higher potential) can of worms, especially if it has even fewer limits than conventional sealing.
EDIT: Math error, needed to add 5 more days to support grind.
I'm no longer concerned with using SC hours on notes anymore because we used to get one for free a day and it felt like a waste, but now that we will almost certainly never have the time to do that again, the XP will never get claimed without using SC for notes. And it's worth pointing out that every notes lootbox is worth more than a SC block that it replaces. When we were getting it for free we could use all our clone blocks and do notes too but now that we can't do that, notes are greatly to slightly faster than doing a typical block, though obviously only for that given skill.
4/day notes compared to .3 XP training block -> 13.3 times more XP a day for that block
3/day notes to .3 XP -> 10 times more XP
2/day notes to .3 XP -> 6.6 times more XP
1/day notes to .3 XP -> 3.3 times more XP
Additional consideration: You can read multiple note sets at once, but you may not use clones to read the same set faster. As it happens, it takes the same amount of time to read each note set for MedNin (the same is true for MedKnow.)
How many Shadow Clone blocks does Hazou have? Hazou has resolve 62, which means he can have (62 - 11 + 6) = 57 hours in a day. Divided by 3, that's 19 training blocks a day. There are 8 note sets for MedNin, and 8 note sets for MedKnow, so he could use 16 training blocks for notes and have 3 remaining.
It takes exactly 25 days for Hazou to read through all of the medical note sets using 16 clone blocks. In that time he would produce 500 notes XP for mednin, 500 notes XP for medknow, and (25 * 3 + (25 * 3 * .3)) = 98 regular XP. 500 notes XP in each skill could bring them from level 10 to about 33 each. Assuming he has no supports for either of them to be a 30, we would need to spend an additional 530 XP to get 2 10s and 2 20s, or 265 XP if those 10s and 20s are jutsu. Subtracting the 98 generated during the 25 days brings that total to 432 and 167 XP, respectively, which correlate to about 35 days of FOOM and 15 days of FOOM, respectively.
Bringing each of these skills to 39 from 33 would cost 219 XP each for a total of 438, which corresponds to about 35 more days of FOOM. The stunt itself is 125 XP, which is about 10 days of FOOM.
In total:
25 (notes binge) + 35 days (support grind, no jutsu) + 35 days (to 39) + 10 days (pay for stunt) = 105 days
25 (notes binge) + 15 days (support with jutsu) + 35 days (to 39) + 10 days (pay for stunt) = 85 days
If you were satisfied with med skills 33/33 then it would be 70 days and 50 days, respectively, to reach those levels.
I think I did my calligraphy analogue math wrong earlier. 33 corresponds to (33 * 3 / 2) = Sealing 50 with no prep, or ((33 + 16) * (3/2)) = Sealing 74 with max prep. MedSkills 39/39, assuming calligraphy analogue, correspond to (39 * (3/2)) = Sealing 59 with no prep, or ((39 + 16)*(3/2)) = Sealing 83 with max prep.
The idea that it will be some massive diversion to hit levels worth investing in is extremely likely to be wrong imo, and I will contest that narrative every time it is brought up. There are maybe social concerns (I'm skeptical cuz Asuma noted there was another biosealer in Leaf and it didn't sound like he reviled them) but like, just use biosealing to help people and the tune would change in an instant imo.
What I think is worth being concerned with is how much time we're willing to dedicate to biosealing. We already move at a glacial pace through conventional sealing backlog. Biosealing opens up a (admittedly higher potential) can of worms, especially if it has even fewer limits than conventional sealing.
EDIT: Math error, needed to add 5 more days to support grind.
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Unaligned Player
Agony that desires to meet Extinction
- Location
- Adrift between sanity and madness
- Pronouns
- Shrug
Everyday we grow closer to canon.
Hey, sealing is sealing. More seriously, there is a tremendous variety of chakra beasts out there that can do some really weird things, and modifying chakra beasts seems like potentially a simpler way to achieve some of our objectives than designing a seal from scratch. It opens up a lot of possibilities. But that's long-term, we still have a lot of low-hanging fruit to pick with regular sealing (and hopefully soon 3D sealing), and we can't yet spare the XP when Hazō's build is so compromised. I support spending XP on (a) high chūnin combat skills, (b) clan head appropriate social skills, and (c) calligraphy and earthshaping (the sealing skill is high enough already). Once Hazō is no longer desperately needing to raise ten skills, he can invest in something brand new like biosealing or technique hacking.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
For what it's worth, my arguments have already been operating under the assumption that it's trivial to get our biosealing support stat(s) to 30, I was rather saying that we won't have room pyramid-wise for higher than that until quite a ways in the future, not when we have combat and social stats both desperately begging to be raised. Under this framework that bio-support(s) to 30 is fast and bio-support(s) to 40/50 is very slow for pyramid reasons, the question in my mind was what our skill level would look like with bio-support in the 30's and how valuable that could be compared to our more developed research stats.
Also minor quibble: the 74/83 with max prep describes the max sealing roll we can accommodate, not the max sealing level we can accomodate. Some napkin math suggests that when you're doing full prep you'd get rolls of 74 and 83 at around levels 60 and 69 respectively, which is still more impressive than I previous thought but not quite as high as the raw number might suggest. I still personally doubt that it'd be all that useful for combat, but I'm revising upwards the odds that we can do meaningful things with crops and chakra beasts and the like.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
For the record I still subscribe to the build plan linked in my signature
(Though at the moment I'm thinking of doing Alertness to 39, raising Calligraphy to 49, and then going back to raising Alertness to 50.)
HAZOU: Atomu turned himself into a pickle! A fucking pickle! Funniest shit I've ever seen!
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Now I'm picturing Hazou as the Rick to Harumitsu's Morty
"Ah j-j-jeez Hazou, I-I-I-I don't know..."
"FIVE MINUTE PORTAL ADVENTURE HARUMITSU, IN AND OUT, IT'LL BE FUN"
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
Why, I am very interested in cutting Hidan into compactly-sized pieces and storing them separately so he can't—
Oh. Nevermind. Forget I said anything.
- Location
- Texas
As an aside, Hazo-pilot recently decided that it's preferable to use SSA on MS7. I think we've left the realm of chuunin level sealing and we're not even a third of the way done with them.
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
CATEARS (the next improvement on MARS) was found to be chunnin difficulty.
- Location
- Texas
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
Well, chuunin+prep still sounds like it'd work out, but I see your point. My guess about why the Minato seal chain is so long was that he not only wanted something that would work, but something that others could recreate in the future. Between the likely TH inclusion and the steadily rising difficulty, that's looking less probable by the day.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Maybe the chain is so long so he could make it in the first place. He legitimately might not have had the skill to manage the final product without grinding the veterancy himself, if it's like TN 120+ normally or something.
I have to say that would be a pretty interesting approach, pick a final seal you know will be exceptionally strong but aren't quite skilled enough to make, then make a bunch of derivative seals until you can make it. Maybe that's how he did FTG too. No one can replicate it because no one has the patience to do months or years of prep seals first lmao
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
Something to keep in mind if our first go at rift-opening seals doesn't work out, I'd imagine.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
I dunno, didn't he do it for Kushina's sake? Seems unlikely to willingly take that long.
- Location
- Texas
Probably started the moment he found out Kushina was pregnant. Hazo said he got the feeling Minato was working through the seals at a frantic pace, just like him.
Interlude: Wilting Flowers
- Location
- USA
Interlude: Wilting Flowers
Set the day after Chapter 599...
"Congratulations!"
Ino threw herself into Hazō's arms with a tight hug. After a couple seconds, she pulled her head back, and Hazō obligingly lowered his head so she could kiss him.
Eventually, they separated, and Ino presented the bouquet she'd brought. "For you."
Hazō took a moment to take in the various flowers. The art of crafting a bouquet was something beyond him, but Mari had insisted that he learn the bare basics of Leaf flower language, since clan heads would often use flowers to subtly communicate the mood without being crass. Walking into a meeting without whether they'd left out a vase of edelweiss or anemone could be disastrous.
"Let's see…. Love, pride, piety," he said, pointing at the flowers one by one. There was definitely a correct order to take them in that would spell out a message, but he could only manage naming what they symbolized. "The blessings of fortune, longing for the object of your dreams, and… congratulations for my new child!?"
Ino blushed deeply. "What? That's not- I mean-" she breathed deeply. "That's a yellow poppy, Hazō. Not purple."
"Oh," he said, blushing in turn. "Success then. Congratulations on my success."
Ino laughed, and slung her arms around his neck. They kissed again.
"You got there. It's cute watching you figure things out. Was it hard?"
"Figuring out the bouquet?"
Ino raised an eyebrow.
"Oh, the test," Hazō said. "Honestly, it wasn't anything challenging. It's just…" he gestured at his head.
"More headaches?" Ino asked sympathetically.
"Yeah," Hazō said.
She pulled away from him and rested her hands on the outsides of his shoulders, looking up into his eyes.
"I'm worried about that, Hazō. There are parts of the mind that are dangerous, and certain thoughts that can hurt you, but they're not supposed to hurt you physically. Forcing yourself to relive old traumas sounds bad enough, but having those memories somehow contain… some new information that's still useful to you, and also some quality that gives you a lasting, physical headache for days? That sounds dangerous. Like, really dangerous."
Hazō shook his head. Gently, so the headache wouldn't flare up. "It's fine. I know how to handle it. I can keep myself from slipping in too deep, and then it's not dangerous."
Ino looked at him doubtfully for several seconds. She sighed. "Sure. I trust your judgment. Still, if you turn yourself into a vegetable because you wanted to finish a sealing project just a little bit faster… I'll be very sad. So don't do that."
"Yes ma'am," Hazō said, giving Ino a kiss that she accepted only somewhat reluctantly. She stepped away from him and finally took off her coat, shaking off the snow that had stuck onto it from the slow, steady flurry outside and hanging it up on one of the hooks on the door.
"So, Ino, what's been on your mind?"
"The investigation," Ino said.
"Oh."
Once she'd unlaced her shoes and kicked them off by the door, Ino walked deeper into the main house, towards Hazō's room. He'd already taken care to deactivate all the traps before she came, so he followed behind her.
"I'm just… frustrated," Ino said with a sigh, flopping down onto the low couch next to the hibachi Hazō had lit in the center of the room. She extended both arms to Hazō and repeatedly opened and closed her hands in grabby motions, making it clear to him that she wanted him to sit down and cuddle. Hazō obliged.
"Shika thinks we've found everything there is to find and that more effort is wasted, but I can't help but feel like we missed something. I know I'm biased, but things don't add up. Sure, we've done one day in-and-out assassinations or kidnap jobs before. That's something you almost always need information to do. As best as Canvass could tell, Rock's team moved out soon after Akane left, so they must have been waiting on the border. Fine, whatever. That's also a pattern that we've seen before, and they could have dropped a team off in Iron on their way to the Exams. Still, the team would have needed information to know that a viable target was within their strike zone. They needed it to move out at the right time and head to the right general area.
"So if they needed information, where are the fucking informants, Hazō? I interrogated every one of the Tower's ninja staff. Unless they're good enough deep cover operatives to not let a single thing slip under six hours of interrogation with one of Leaf's best, not one of them is the informant! And I doubt any of them is a deep-cover operative like that because every single one of them is a Leaf ninja that ended up in their position because they took a career-ending injury while putting their life on the line for the village.
"Shika interrogated the Tower's civilian staff, but he found nothing there, either – not that any of the civilians should have been close to the mission assignment process. For a bit, I thought one of the civilians might have fled Leaf, but they'd just fallen sick. Everyone's accounted for. I wish," Ino said, clenching her fists as if crushing a rotten apple, "we had anything. I would crack open anyone's brain to get some intel and a lead. Instead, nothing. Sage, I wish I could break open Hagoromo's mind and see what she really thought when she was assigning that mission. But Asuma-sensei is right that she's outwardly showing no tells at all of lying or anything but negligence.
"So what could it have been? Did Rock sneak a bloodline ninja close enough to the Tower to get intel on our mission deployments? The Hyūga are supposed to catch that. Did they invent some new undetectable spying seal, or spying jutsu? We're crazy screwed if so. Or did they somehow slip an informant past us?"
She went limp in his arms for a moment. Hazō stayed silent.
"This is what I'm supposed to be good at," Ino said. "I'm supposed to be able to talk with people and ferret out their secrets. Instead, there's nothing I can do here. It's depressing."
"Sometimes," Hazō said eventually, "there's nothing to find. That doesn't mean there was nothing there. It might just mean that whoever you're playing against covered it up perfectly."
"That's the thing, Hazō. There's no such thing as a perfect cover-up. They clearly thought their attack was pretty sneaky. If it weren't for Canvass, we'd have searched, found nothing, and figured that she'd died to a chakra beast. They tried to cover that up and failed, because we had enough tools to figure it out and we applied them in the right way. I refuse to believe that they have memory editing good enough to fool a Yamanaka. Somewhere, someone in Leaf has information in their head that I could scrape out. But I don't know who it is, and it doesn't look like it's anyone in the Tower. Who in the Sage's name could it be, then?"
"I don't know, Ino."
"I don't know either," Ino said with a sigh. "I'm going to go through all the Tower staff's immediate family and friends, just to see if any of the Tower ninja mentioned Akane's mission to a secondary spy accidentally, but that seems unlikely. If that turns up nothing… I think I'm going to have to just let it go."
Hazō had nothing to say to that. They sat together and listened to the crackling of the hibachi, set against the too-quiet sound of snowfall outside.
"Anyway," Ino said, "I'm tired of letting things go. I'm going to try to make things better, now. Hazō, will you sell me your Goo Bombs?"
"Oh? Right, I told you that I learned them earlier. My best seals aren't nearly as good as Jiraiya's best ones yet, but I think my Goo Bombs have to be pretty close to his. What do you need them for?"
"After you reminded me about them, I thought back to how you used them during the Chūnin Exams. I think they could help keep Yamanaka genin alive. Just one of those bombs could stop an attacking chakra beast or instantly end a fight with an enemy genin. I know it would be a lot of work on your end, but I figured that I needed to try if it had a chance of saving Yamanaka lives. Oh, and don't worry about the Tower trying to buy out the whole supply without giving us any. I'll convince Asuma-sensei to let you trade with me without those bureaucrats playing middleman."
"Interesting," Hazō said. "I'll have to think about it. Seals are our clans' main advantage. Even if the Goo Bomb isn't a clan secret, it's still one of our stronger seals, and I'd need to talk with everyone to make sure that it's something that's okay to sell."
Ino nodded, pressed up against the back of his shoulder. "Take your time. It's just… something that I needed to ask about. I don't want to guilt you by saying this, but after all those regrets I had thinking about what I maybe could have done for Akane, I want to spend more time focusing on the lives I can still save."
"I get that," Hazō said. "Actually, Mari was talking earlier about a new intervention the Ministry is trying out to save civilian lives out in the boonies of Fire. See, even though the harvests have been great this year, the chakra beast attacks have also been much worse than average…"
I wrote this scene for Chapter 600, but decided it didn't fit with the chapter's rapidly cycling viewpoints, so I cut it. I had intended to make it a Patreon exclusive to drive subscriptions, but then I ended up writing the Hidan plan. And then I was too slow on writing that. So, the next chapter will (hopefully) be out tomorrow, and this little scene should tide you all over in the meantime.
- Location
- United States
I assume she means all the ones that aren't in a clan, right @Paperclipped @eaglejarl @Velorien? Ruka, who was the most suspicious person, wasn't allowed to be interrogated by anyone at T&I and was allowed to not answer any question she didn't want to and end the interrogation at any time.
Shika did it. (probably)
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