Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

[MadScientist]

[] [Isan] Record Scratch

• Hazou has a horrible idea: what if the hellstorm is the result of air spirits hating the cold, and not a result of EM specifically?
• He researches a seal that imitates the Akane-level EM cold effect.
• Uh-oh.
• "Asuma, we should probably delay the decision on whether to destroy Isan until we've reassessed the situation in light of new information…"

 

[Cariyaga]

Re: The Isan plan:

We should bring up that Shikamaru has personal interest in Isan's cessation due to their having Nara lore. In this light, I suggest a moment at the start, as we're informed of the subject of it, that we pass along a note to Kei about that. It's... something that she probably wouldn't think of on her own, but will give her a way to push back against Shikamaru if he leans in favor of Isan's destruction, without getting Shikamaru pissy at us in particular for bringing this up to the table at large.

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@faflec @Left-Hand Mutant

I think this should be considered for the Isan plan. I don't know whether it's a good idea or not, but I'd like discussion of it, at least!

 

[Sir Stompy]

[X] [Isan] Free(z)ing the Jungle

 

[RandomOTP]

[Isan] Free(z)ing the Jungle

 

[Orisha91]

Hazou has a horrible idea: what if the hellstorm is the result of air spirits hating the cold, and not a result of EM specifically?

Click to shrink...

I thought Hazou-pilot came to that conclusion when players decided the jutsu was repeatable? I didn't think his natural conclusion was that this was an exclusive phenomenon to EM? I know he mentioned Harumitsu's cooling seals as a seal version of EM, but the power between the two is drastically different enough not to consider it.

Actually, maybe we should bring up that modified cooling seals as a whole could potentially do this as well...

[ ] [Isan] Record Scratch

 

[MadScientist]

Edited as promised:

[x] [Isan] Record Scratch

• Hazou has a horrible idea: what if the hellstorm is the result of air spirits hating the cold, and not a result of EM specifically?
• He researches a seal that imitates the Akane-level EM cold effect.
• Uh-oh.
• "Asuma, we should probably delay the decision on whether to destroy Isan until we've reassessed the situation in light of new information…"

Click to shrink...

 

[Cariyaga]

Y'all are aware that that plan is not valid, right? The isan plan is strictly for our response at the meeting.

 

[Orisha91]

@MadScientist
I think we can only stick to responses or thoughts. We can't actually physically prep for the meeting.

I would mention that Hazou has a vague idea that air spirits seem to respond differently to heat (civilian led flight uplift projects). The only other reference we have to air spirits interaction with the cold air is cooling seals, making ice with Alane using EM, and ...that's it I think.

If Hazō has any arguments against doing so (or, indeed, arguments for), this will be his only chance to present them. Please vote in a plan for Hazō to follow during the meeting (instructions for what to do before it will not be accepted since he has no advance warning).

Click to shrink...

 

[faflec]

Y'all are aware that that plan is not valid, right? The isan plan is strictly for our response at the meeting.

Click to shrink...

Plot twist: Hazou decides to make the EM Nuke seal during the meeting.

Plot twist twist: Hazou decides to infuse and activate the EM Nuke seal during the meeting.

HAZOU: *standing over the ruins of Leaf* Asuma, we should probably delay the decision on whether to destroy Isan until we've reassessed the situation in light of new information…

 

[MadScientist]

welp

 

[Orisha91]

Plot twist: Hazou decides to make the EM Nuke seal during the meeting.

Plot twist twist: Hazou decides to infuse and activate the EM Nuke seal during the meeting.

HAZOU: *standing over the ruins of Leaf* Asuma, we should probably delay the decision on whether to destroy Isan until we've reassessed the situation in light of new information…

Click to shrink...

JASHIN: * Nods in curiosity and amusement at the antics of the chaos fledgling. *

 

[Inferno Vulpix]

[X] [Isan] Free(z)ing the Jungle
[X][Conclave] Clear Communication

 

[Velorien]

welp

Click to shrink...

Simply put, Hazō has no idea what the meeting will be about in advance because Asuma sending any kind of message that refers to EM is a pointless OPSEC risk. On the other hand, nobody will blink an eye at the Hokage just summoning a clan head for an urgent meeting, doubly so when that clan head is Hazō.

 

[Left-Hand Mutant]

@faflec @Left-Hand Mutant

I think this should be considered for the Isan plan. I don't know whether it's a good idea or not, but I'd like discussion of it, at least!

Click to shrink...

I'd appreciate links to wherever we learned that Isan knows Nara lore, I don't remember it well.

Assuming said links are compelling, that's a significant point of concern.
Unfortunately, I'm... not sure what we can do about this?

Like, everyone at the table(including us?) places a lot of trust in Shikamaru. If Shika argues for destroying Isan, and Hazou suggests it's due to an ulterior motive, I assume he'll deny it. When he denies it, we won't have much recourse besides taking him at his word, or insisting that Asuma and Kei disregard Shikamaru's advice.

This approach doesn't seem helpful, and I don't have a better one.
I also want to avoid driving a wedge between us and Shikamaru right before we ask him for help with the rift.

...But "just let Shika argue for whatever when he may have an ulterior motive" is also a very bad plan.

 

[Cariyaga]

I'd appreciate links to wherever we learned that Isan knows Nara lore, I don't remember it well.

Assuming said links are compelling, that's a significant point of concern.
Unfortunately, I'm... not sure what we can do about this?

Like, everyone at the table(including us?) places a lot of trust in Shikamaru. If Shika argues for destroying Isan, and Hazou suggests it's due to an ulterior motive, I assume he'll deny it. When he denies it, we won't have much recourse besides taking him at his word, or insisting that Asuma and Kei disregard Shikamaru's advice.

This approach doesn't seem helpful, and I don't have a better one.
I also want to avoid driving a wedge between us and Shikamaru right before we ask him for help with the rift.

...But "just let Shika argue for whatever when he may have an ulterior motive" is also a very bad plan.

Click to shrink...

It was when we were going out with Kei and Yuno; we asked Yuno about Isan lore and she started going on about it in Kei's company, and then she dragged her away.

e: Oh, another thing mentioned on discord: We should mention that it's possible that Isan could have dragon-relevant lore.

 

[FaintlySorcerous]

[X] [Isan] Free(z)ing the Jungle

General horrors of destroying an allied village/killing thousands of people.

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What are the positives of bringing this up?

Destroying an entire village is horrifying, but everyone sitting at the table is aware of this and the point of being here is that we're making explicitly and exclusively rational decisions. We're not adding new information and we're very clearly signaling that we're not capable of mastering our emotions in situations where making the most rational decision is hypercritical.

Pointing to them as an ally and military asset makes sense, although depending on how Orochimaru conducted himself that might work against us.

 

[faflec]

What are the positives of bringing this up?

Destroying an entire village is horrifying, but everyone sitting at the table is aware of this and the point of being here is that we're making explicitly and exclusively rational decisions. We're not adding new information and we're very clearly signaling that we're not capable of mastering our emotions in situations where making the most rational decision is hypercritical.

Pointing to them as an ally and military asset makes sense, although depending on how Orochimaru conducted himself that might work against us.

Click to shrink...

I'd originally wanted Hazou to start by saying something like "I will set aside the ethical and moral implications of visiting death upon a village of people whose crime they are not even aware of", but then felt that was too guilt-trippy. The idea I wanted to have was to make it clear that Hazou recognizes that the topic of discussion is whether or not to commit genocide, and the implicit horror of the discussion, but that he is capable of setting aside such emotions to determine whether saving civilization would require performing such actions.

 

[FaintlySorcerous]

I'd originally wanted Hazou to start by saying something like "I will set aside the ethical and moral implications of visiting death upon a village of people whose crime they are not even aware of", but then felt that was too guilt-trippy. The idea I wanted to have was to make it clear that Hazou recognizes that the topic of discussion is whether or not to commit genocide, and the implicit horror of the discussion, but that he is capable of setting aside such emotions to determine whether saving civilization would require performing such actions.

Click to shrink...

This is not communicated as it stands.

Pulling it into a preface or a different section would provide a degree of differentiation that would probably get you to where you want to be.

 

[faflec]

This is not communicated as it stands.

Pulling it into a preface or a different section would provide a degree of differentiation that would probably get you to where you want to be.

Click to shrink...

Do you think it's a good idea to write that in?

EDIT: Proposed change

[X] [Isan] Free(z)ing the Jungle

• Hazou will set aside the ethical and moral implications of visiting death upon a village of people whose crime they are not even aware of, and look upon the situation rationally.
• Even so, Hazou is generally opposed to destroying Isan with Elemental Mastery based on his current awareness of the situation.
  • Hazou is not stubborn and is willing to change his viewpoint, but is not convinced that destroying Isan is necessary at this point in time.
• The facts as Hazou knows them:
  • Isan has agreed to trade Fire ninjutsu exclusively with Leaf, and there is a replacement for Elemental Mastery, which presumably is being traded with Isan. Both these things indicate that spread of Elemental Mastery is controlled.
  • Isan-nin with knowledge of Elemental Mastery may not be present in Isan during its destruction. These survivors represent a risk of EM proliferation.
  • Isan-nin may have undiscovered technique caches containing Elemental Mastery, and destroying Isan would make it impossible to locate them save by pure chance. These caches represent a risk of EM proliferation.
  • Other concerns not strictly related to Elemental Mastery-related Armageddon:
    • Additional difficulties related to EM Nukes in the Dragonwar.
    • AMITY destroying Leaf in retaliation.
    • Loss of a close ally with ties to Leaf.
• Things Hazou doesn't know about:
  • Capturing and interrogation of Isan patrols, and its missing-nin.

Click to shrink...

 

[coldcutconvict]

Re: The Isan plan:

We should bring up that Shikamaru has personal interest in Isan's cessation due to their having Nara lore. In this light, I suggest a moment at the start, as we're informed of the subject of it, that we pass along a note to Kei about that. It's... something that she probably wouldn't think of on her own, but will give her a way to push back against Shikamaru if he leans in favor of Isan's destruction, without getting Shikamaru pissy at us in particular for bringing this up to the table at large.

Click to shrink...

Feels like Asuma would defer to Shikamaru on eliminating dangerous lore. Been burned before when we only had hearsay.

You are not in the wrong for trying your best to offer constructive criticism and feedback: you have nothing you need to apologize for but your willingness to make peace with others does your personal character credit.

I for one would be flattered if you gave my previous post any discussion.

Click to shrink...

Gratitude for the kind words. Every player here has smart, well thought out reasons for thinking what they think and limited time, energy. Moving well thought out positions is demanding. No hard feelings when we do not reach agreement.

Not in the headspace to properly discuss. Good points. Keep fighting the good fight. Maybe safer to keep Isan poorer by outbidding them to their trade partners.

 

[Inferno Vulpix]

It's not a dealbreaker for me, but I have a preference for including a line about extracting and preserving Isan's lore if we go through with this. Beyond the simple fact that I do, in fact, want Isan's lore to survive so we can get our hands on it, it also signals that Hazou is thinking about the problem beyond just "coming up with reasons to not do this". If Hazou is demonstrably thinking through how he would want such an operation to go, that helps better convey the opening lines about him not being stubborn about it.

Feels like Asuma would defer to Shikamaru on eliminating dangerous lore. Been burned before when we only had hearsay.

Click to shrink...

For this angle, like, I don't think we need to drag Shikamaru's incentives into it. We should just bring up the fact that Isan's lore quite possibly includes the only surviving records of information that dates back hundreds of years, which is priceless and irreplaceable. If Shikamaru objects that some of it can be dangerous, we can afford to defer to him about it. Better the lore survives in the Nara archives than be lost forever to the cold fire.

 

[ProperAttorney]

[X] [Isan] Free(z)ing the Jungle

[X] [Isan] Free(z)ing the Jungle

• Hazou is generally opposed to destroying Isan with Elemental Mastery based on his current awareness of the situation.
  • Hazou is not stubborn and is willing to change his viewpoint, but is not convinced that destroying Isan is necessary at this point in time.
• The facts as Hazou knows them:
  • Isan has agreed to trade Fire ninjutsu exclusively with Leaf, and there is a replacement for Elemental Mastery, which presumably is being traded with Isan. Both these things indicate that spread of Elemental Mastery is controlled.
  • Isan-nin with knowledge of Elemental Mastery may not be present in Isan during its destruction. These survivors represent a risk of EM proliferation.
  • Isan-nin may have undiscovered technique caches containing Elemental Mastery, and destroying Isan would make it impossible to locate them save by pure chance. These caches represent a risk of EM proliferation.
  • Other concerns not strictly related to Elemental Mastery-related Armageddon:
    • Additional difficulties related to EM Nukes in the Dragonwar.
    • AMITY destroying Leaf in retaliation.
    • General horrors of destroying an allied village/killing thousands of people.
• Things Hazou doesn't know about:
  • Capturing and interrogation of Isan patrols, and its missing-nin.

Click to shrink...

For your consideration:
There is always the EM saturation option. Air that passes through EM can't have its temperature changed again, and there's no duration, no time at which the temperature change resets. If you can somehow scale up EM's size and lower the temperature Delta, maybe with TH, you can make it so that a hell of a lot of air can never again be used for EM nukes. If you have these larger scale, lower intensity variants of EM cast in, around, and above Leaf every day, it would possibly prevent EM nukes from ever working there.

 

[coldcutconvict]

[X] [Isan] Free(z)ing the Jungle

 

[_The_Bomb]

Additional difficulties related to EM Nukes in the Dragonwar.

Click to shrink...

Can you expand on this. Something like:

HAZŌ: If you use the EM nuke now, you can't use it on the dragons without Akatsuki razing Leaf for violating AMITY.​

@RandomX2 and I think this is the strongest argument we could make, so it's defiantly worth expanding on in the plan, especially since we have the word count.

Also, you should add something like:

HAZŌ: Asuma, I firmly believe that Isan hold lore that may be essential to DRAGONWAR. If you absolutely **must** destroy them, I strongly urge you to allow Mari and I time to extract as much lore from them as possible beforehand.​

This, at the very least, Asuma is likely to accept. There's no extremely urgent need to destroy Isan and he'll more then likely give us at least a month to squeeze as much lore out of them as we can before the nuke.

 

[coldcutconvict]

[] [Isan] Record Scratch

• Hazou has a horrible idea: what if the hellstorm is the result of air spirits hating the cold, and not a result of EM specifically?
• He researches a seal that imitates the Akane-level EM cold effect.
• Uh-oh.
• "Asuma, we should probably delay the decision on whether to destroy Isan until we've reassessed the situation in light of new information…"

Click to shrink...

Bring this up in the meeting without the seal? Ask Asuma for time or to do tests. What happens when a weak EM zone is choked with water? Does it kill the duration or does it keep going when the water is removed? Hollow, underwater corundum sphere, protected with five seal barrier. What happens when Asuma SC casts EM inside? Should show that the storm is emergent, not direct effect of EM.