It's complicated. At the end of the day, clan senior Mari sacrificed a lower-ranking member (in Yuno's eyes, at least), and Hazō praised her for it. Subsequent events can influence Yuno's interpretation of these facts, but they can't change them.

Did Hazou actually praise Mari for what she did? From what Yuno knows, Orochimaru appeared in the compound, Hazou threw himself under the bus because he knew someone of the clan was going to met him. Then unilaterally decided the priority was saving Kei(The lower-ranking member) and then decided he would throw himself under another super-bus to protect Kei.(The vivisection)
I re-read the update and maybe i'm missing it, but Hazou seems firmly to be on the "If someone goes under the bus, that someone will be me" and "I'm not going to make judgment calls on the situation because we need to resolve the problem". Maybe in the puppy update? But i don't think Yuno was there?
 
Did Hazou actually praise Mari for what she did? From what Yuno knows, Orochimaru appeared in the compound, Hazou threw himself under the bus because he knew someone of the clan was going to met him. Then unilaterally decided the priority was saving Kei(The lower-ranking member) and then decided he would throw himself under another super-bus to protect Kei.(The vivisection)
I re-read the update and maybe i'm missing it, but Hazou seems firmly to be on the "If someone goes under the bus, that someone will be me" and "I'm not going to make judgment calls on the situation because we need to resolve the problem". Maybe in the puppy update? But i don't think Yuno was there?
He praised Mari effusively in private for saving his life, per the player plan, and handwaved the Kei issue for the sake of Mari's post-Orochimaru emotional state. Yuno wasn't there for that conversation, but it seems unlikely, if only for Mari's sake, that the Hazōpilot would do a 180 in public.

Edit: Actually, that conversation wasn't in a private space, so a particularly evil QM would have Yuno overhearing it from the stairs or from around a corner. Whether the MfD QMs are that evil is left up to the reader's imagination.
 
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Random thought:

Are there any MfD readers in the NY/NJ/CT area who would like to meet up for lunch? I've always enjoyed meeting y'all and would like to do it again if anyone is interested.
 
Noburi can make the chakra in his water infinitely dense so he can just top us off with one serving. The issue with the Summoning Strategy is that it requires the Summoners to continuously drink water over long periods of time.
If Noburi can make the chakra in his water infinitely dense, then couldn't he make the water poisoning a non issue by simply topping people of with single small sips worth of water?
 
If Noburi can make the chakra in his water infinitely dense, then couldn't he make the water poisoning a non issue by simply topping people of with single small sips worth of water?
docs.google.com

PLAYERS - Known Bloodlines

Kurosawa (Iron Nerve) Summary Eidetic Physical Memory Instant Seal Recall Draw Blanks for Unfamiliar Seals / Other People’s Seals Attempt to Verify Any Blank You are Capable of Drawing Have Sharingan Babies Defy Death Mori (Frozen Skein) Summary Frozen Skein Combat Frozen Skein In Winter’s Gras...
 
If Noburi can make the chakra in his water infinitely dense, then couldn't he make the water poisoning a non issue by simply topping people of with single small sips worth of water?
if he could make his chakra in the water so dense he would not need the barrel, just a small canteen strapped to him with the appropriate seals.
 
Yesss. You must totally do this. I feel like @eaglejarl must when he hears about players wanting to solve a problem via badass speeches followed by punching.

Disclaimer: I haven't thought through what would happen; I just think it'd be awesome to write.
Understood. Can I get a bonus XP promise? I'd do it without one, of course, but, you know, the rest of the hivemind might need some additional motivation...
 
Guys there is a super simple workaround to the water poisoning problem, just teach shadow clone to all our summoners and have the clones do all the actual summoning and water drinking.
 
Guys there is a super simple workaround to the water poisoning problem, just teach shadow clone to all our summoners and have the clones do all the actual summoning and water drinking.
Yes, this has already been suggested, and while Shadow Clones can't Summon due to the need to draw blood, they can just drink the water and pop to transfer chakra back to the original.
 
I wonder if Shadow Clones can Summon using their creator's blood? Like Snowflake takes a dollop of blood from Kei when Summoning.
 
I wonder if Shadow Clones can Summon using their creator's blood? Like Snowflake takes a dollop of blood from Kei when Summoning.
Doubtful, but perhaps? Hazou has said that Summoning requires some very "primal" things ("identity, chakra, and intent").

I suppose it all depends on how similar a Shadow Clone's identity and chakra are to their creator? We know that even non-Mori Shadow Clones aren't 100% recreations of the original, and Kei's Shadow Clones are especially different than her.

I suppose it all comes down to what is "close enough" to be accepted by the Summoning Scroll, and what the dangers are when it comes to testing this (which I suspect are many).
 
yes, sorry, i followed the notification into the Story only thread, since is notifying me of that one since my first mistaken post.
No worries. Thanks for moving it, I enjoyed reading.

If Noburi can make the chakra in his water infinitely dense, then couldn't he make the water poisoning a non issue by simply topping people of with single small sips worth of water?
@faflec linked the rules doc, but to answer directly: You need to drink at least 0.5 liters of water to get any benefit, but he can put as much chakra as desired in that water.

if he could make his chakra in the water so dense he would not need the barrel, just a small canteen strapped to him with the appropriate seals.
He can in fact use a canteen to store water, but it won't last as long as it does in the barrel. Why the seals can't be put on a canteen is a question you need to talk to a Wakahisa cooper about, but the fact that they aren't using them suggests that they can't.

Wish you hadn't said that....
Now we gotta do all these things, for the both of yous
:)
Understood. Can I get a bonus XP promise? I'd do it without one, of course, but, you know, the rest of the hivemind might need some additional motivation...
This is pretty much what the "QM had fun" category of XP awards was created for.
 
Yesss. You must totally do this. I feel like @eaglejarl must when he hears about players wanting to solve a problem via badass speeches followed by punching.

Disclaimer: I haven't thought through what would happen; I just think it'd be awesome to write.
...on one hand: I don't see how this will fix anything at all.

On the other hand: I'm so far out of my depth, that I can't think of anything that could possibly help the situation. So I don't have a better alternative.

On the third hand: maybe we could tempt you away from this with a fluffy, romance-tinged Snowflake chapter? Maybe Hazou apologizing for voicing the private names of Snowflake's yet-unborn sisters, and embarrassingly admitting that his instinctual thought (sacrifice self, save them) wasn't very helpful to the overall discussion.

Edit: perhaps complimenting Snowflake on her attire during Yuno's party? Between this and the other ideas, it'd create a romantic air that would allow Hazou-pilot to being thinking on whether or not he views Snowflake in a romantic light. Or perhaps it'll finally get Snowflake to make a move? Albeit, one could argue that her going on a date with Akane counts?
 
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!!!!!!!Effort post incoming!!!!!!!


We've seen hygp speculate on why people wage war, but there's another aspect we're still in the dark about. I'd like to speculate on HOW people wage war.


The first thing I feel like needs to be addressed is how the fuck are borders decided? Historically in the real world, it reflects how much land your military can cover/patrol. This is still somewhat the case in MfD as we saw Rock initiate war by killing our border patrols. However, the two situations aren't really analogous. You can't just march your battalions all over enemy land in secret - and if you could, that would be your land, not your enemy's. Compare that to ninja warfare where a single jonin can be anywhere at any time and obliterate swaths of chuunin and genin a day at a time. Sprinting across the entirety of the EN doesn't even take two weeks, compared to the long slog that was moving ground troops in the middle ages. So how would you define borders in this context? My current model is that different countries probably have different opinions about where the borders are, but they approximately represent a statement from the local village: "Within our borders, we ALWAYS have ninja close enough to kill you at any given moment." There's only so many ninja to patrol your claimed territory, so you can only claim you own as much land as you can immediately repel attackers from. You could have your jonin wandering around and murdering people in other countries, and indeed they likely do sometimes, but that leaves you open to the enemy doing the same with their jonin, and then your statement claiming you can immediately repel them isn't true - it's not really "your" territory at that point, it's contested, and if they get a foothold it may become theirs entirely.


So fundamentally, the ownership of land comes down to your ability to have ninja presence in all of your claimed land, or at least, to be present enough that the enemy can't be sure if you're there or not. The borders are like electron shells, where there's high probability of finding ninja anywhere, and the enemy has to chance an encounter with defenders to go anywhere. However - it's not as simple as just having ninja around. Ninja are too difficult to pin down to engage in effective invasions. Rather, you attack the most important aspect of all warfare - logistics. Ninja that are playing defense and occupying your territory need to eat, resupply, and receive medical treatment, and a vast majority of the borders are multiple days away from the village. That means either local civilian villages are critical to providing those supplies, or you need ninja runners, likely genin or chuunin, sprinting all over to deliver food and supplies in storage seals. An enemy village waging war on another nation would then attack these supply chains while expanding their own. If your enemy can't feed themselves, they have to retreat to a place they can resupply from. Conversely, if you can provide for yourself further and further from home, you are capable of having patrolling ninja further and further away from your village, which is ultimately what border expansion is.


We saw some of this strategy in the Hashirama ?interlude? where the Senju and Uchiha were starving each other to death by constantly destroying food supplies and farms. Modern warfare applies this tactic too, but with a twist. Larger armies means you can afford to actually defend these locations, just not all of them. It's usually better and easier for both sides to simply kill each other directly and leave the natural resources intact, those only become targets of last resort when you don't know where the enemy is. This turns warfare into a Spy vs Spy type situation, which is appropriately a core aspect of being a ninja. Rather than dedicating forces to hard targets, you can trick your enemy into believing your forces are elsewhere and ambush their undefended regions. Or you can trick them into thinking one area's forces are weaker than they actually are, a la USOUD. However, the enemy would know these tricks too and be on the lookout to pull the exact same thing. Thus, each side is intentionally leaking Intel, trying to deceive the other into over-dedicating their forces to an empty location or ambushing with a much larger force and wiping them out. The victors are decided not just by who has the larger army but who has the better intelligence gathering, and who is better at pulling the wool over the eyes of their enemy.


What would a typical operation look like, then? Rock Genin comes to Funkytown to find out what he can. Rocky is a disposable grunt, and only expected to determine if the village is relevant to the local ninja, he's not experienced enough to know how to blend in, or notice a disguised ninja. A Leaf chuunin hiding amongst the farmers notices the intruder and surveils him to determine if he can be used against Rock or not. Ultimately, Rocky leaves before Leafy decides to assassinate him, as he found out a caravan of steel would be coming through. Leafy would find out from the farmers that Rocky will return with more forces to intercept the caravan, and reports this to a nearby runner, likely another chuunin or a genin, who would relay plans from Leaf. From there it becomes an escalating game of who is better prepared to take on the other. Rocky failed to notice Leafy's presence, likely giving Leaf village the edge. However, were Rock to instead determine the region deserves more direct focus, and send an infiltrator similar to Mari, Leafy may not notice the new foe. The infiltrator might even trick Leafy into providing bad Intel or bringing a force of Leaf nin that end up getting wiped out.


Ultimately in the scenario provided, a steel caravan is the centerpiece of the struggle, but the conflict would grow beyond it to become who is sending the correct number of ninja for a showdown. If Rock overcommits, Leaf could kill their thinned ranks elsewhere. If they undercommit, Leaf would successfully fend them off. Reversing the roles would demonstrate similar consequences for Leaf, either they lose the territory or get invaded elsewhere, and more importantly, lose a chunk of their military. And these types of conflict are happening all over the place, all at once. This is why Thinker clans and strategists are so crucial.


So, why haven't the Goketsu been sent on any of these types of missions yet? Well, think about their specialties. Mari is a jonin infiltrator, if Leafy hasn't noticed anything important enough to warrant her attention yet it would be a waste to send one of Leaf's few jonin. The rest of the clan are combat specialists. The War just broke out, and both sides are mostly gathering information and killing scouts they come across. Major skirmishes haven't actually been planned yet, though I'm sure they're coming together, and when they do that's when I expect Akane, Yuno, Haru, and Kei will be sent to assassinate/murder some chuunin or back up a jonin against another jonin. Mari is pretty good at everything so there's a lot they could use her for. I doubt Noburi will be deployed because he's so powerful on defense and Hazou is more useful as a sealmaster but I can see him getting sent when he heals. The crippled Goketsu are already being deployed - they're the messenger/supply runner role I described above.


To put it in terms of chess, we are only in the opening, and prepping for the midgame. We've claimed some early material in the Battle of Five Clans, but ultimately everyone is still moving their pawns (genin) around to establish intelligence, letting the minor pieces (chuunin) control space. Once the board opens up, the rooks (jonin) will start sweeping material away. And Queens (essies) can do whatever they want, wherever they are needed. There's no king in this analogy, whoever loses more material loses the war. And right now, Rock and Cloud are both up in material. There's no checkmates to go for, we have to beat them in tactics.
 
!!!!!!!Effort post incoming!!!!!!!


We've seen hygp speculate on why people wage war, but there's another aspect we're still in the dark about. I'd like to speculate on HOW people wage war.


The first thing I feel like needs to be addressed is how the fuck are borders decided? Historically in the real world, it reflects how much land your military can cover/patrol. This is still somewhat the case in MfD as we saw Rock initiate war by killing our border patrols. However, the two situations aren't really analogous. You can't just march your battalions all over enemy land in secret - and if you could, that would be your land, not your enemy's. Compare that to ninja warfare where a single jonin can be anywhere at any time and obliterate swaths of chuunin and genin a day at a time. Sprinting across the entirety of the EN doesn't even take two weeks, compared to the long slog that was moving ground troops in the middle ages. So how would you define borders in this context? My current model is that different countries probably have different opinions about where the borders are, but they approximately represent a statement from the local village: "Within our borders, we ALWAYS have ninja close enough to kill you at any given moment." There's only so many ninja to patrol your claimed territory, so you can only claim you own as much land as you can immediately repel attackers from. You could have your jonin wandering around and murdering people in other countries, and indeed they likely do sometimes, but that leaves you open to the enemy doing the same with their jonin, and then your statement claiming you can immediately repel them isn't true - it's not really "your" territory at that point, it's contested, and if they get a foothold it may become theirs entirely.


So fundamentally, the ownership of land comes down to your ability to have ninja presence in all of your claimed land, or at least, to be present enough that the enemy can't be sure if you're there or not. The borders are like electron shells, where there's high probability of finding ninja anywhere, and the enemy has to chance an encounter with defenders to go anywhere. However - it's not as simple as just having ninja around. Ninja are too difficult to pin down to engage in effective invasions. Rather, you attack the most important aspect of all warfare - logistics. Ninja that are playing defense and occupying your territory need to eat, resupply, and receive medical treatment, and a vast majority of the borders are multiple days away from the village. That means either local civilian villages are critical to providing those supplies, or you need ninja runners, likely genin or chuunin, sprinting all over to deliver food and supplies in storage seals. An enemy village waging war on another nation would then attack these supply chains while expanding their own. If your enemy can't feed themselves, they have to retreat to a place they can resupply from. Conversely, if you can provide for yourself further and further from home, you are capable of having patrolling ninja further and further away from your village, which is ultimately what border expansion is.


We saw some of this strategy in the Hashirama ?interlude? where the Senju and Uchiha were starving each other to death by constantly destroying food supplies and farms. Modern warfare applies this tactic too, but with a twist. Larger armies means you can afford to actually defend these locations, just not all of them. It's usually better and easier for both sides to simply kill each other directly and leave the natural resources intact, those only become targets of last resort when you don't know where the enemy is. This turns warfare into a Spy vs Spy type situation, which is appropriately a core aspect of being a ninja. Rather than dedicating forces to hard targets, you can trick your enemy into believing your forces are elsewhere and ambush their undefended regions. Or you can trick them into thinking one area's forces are weaker than they actually are, a la USOUD. However, the enemy would know these tricks too and be on the lookout to pull the exact same thing. Thus, each side is intentionally leaking Intel, trying to deceive the other into over-dedicating their forces to an empty location or ambushing with a much larger force and wiping them out. The victors are decided not just by who has the larger army but who has the better intelligence gathering, and who is better at pulling the wool over the eyes of their enemy.


What would a typical operation look like, then? Rock Genin comes to Funkytown to find out what he can. Rocky is a disposable grunt, and only expected to determine if the village is relevant to the local ninja, he's not experienced enough to know how to blend in, or notice a disguised ninja. A Leaf chuunin hiding amongst the farmers notices the intruder and surveils him to determine if he can be used against Rock or not. Ultimately, Rocky leaves before Leafy decides to assassinate him, as he found out a caravan of steel would be coming through. Leafy would find out from the farmers that Rocky will return with more forces to intercept the caravan, and reports this to a nearby runner, likely another chuunin or a genin, who would relay plans from Leaf. From there it becomes an escalating game of who is better prepared to take on the other. Rocky failed to notice Leafy's presence, likely giving Leaf village the edge. However, were Rock to instead determine the region deserves more direct focus, and send an infiltrator similar to Mari, Leafy may not notice the new foe. The infiltrator might even trick Leafy into providing bad Intel or bringing a force of Leaf nin that end up getting wiped out.


Ultimately in the scenario provided, a steel caravan is the centerpiece of the struggle, but the conflict would grow beyond it to become who is sending the correct number of ninja for a showdown. If Rock overcommits, Leaf could kill their thinned ranks elsewhere. If they undercommit, Leaf would successfully fend them off. Reversing the roles would demonstrate similar consequences for Leaf, either they lose the territory or get invaded elsewhere, and more importantly, lose a chunk of their military. And these types of conflict are happening all over the place, all at once. This is why Thinker clans and strategists are so crucial.


So, why haven't the Goketsu been sent on any of these types of missions yet? Well, think about their specialties. Mari is a jonin infiltrator, if Leafy hasn't noticed anything important enough to warrant her attention yet it would be a waste to send one of Leaf's few jonin. The rest of the clan are combat specialists. The War just broke out, and both sides are mostly gathering information and killing scouts they come across. Major skirmishes haven't actually been planned yet, though I'm sure they're coming together, and when they do that's when I expect Akane, Yuno, Haru, and Kei will be sent to assassinate/murder some chuunin or back up a jonin against another jonin. Mari is pretty good at everything so there's a lot they could use her for. I doubt Noburi will be deployed because he's so powerful on defense and Hazou is more useful as a sealmaster but I can see him getting sent when he heals. The crippled Goketsu are already being deployed - they're the messenger/supply runner role I described above.


To put it in terms of chess, we are only in the opening, and prepping for the midgame. We've claimed some early material in the Battle of Five Clans, but ultimately everyone is still moving their pawns (genin) around to establish intelligence, letting the minor pieces (chuunin) control space. Once the board opens up, the rooks (jonin) will start sweeping material away. And Queens (essies) can do whatever they want, wherever they are needed. There's no king in this analogy, whoever loses more material loses the war. And right now, Rock and Cloud are both up in material. There's no checkmates to go for, we have to beat them in tactics.
So what you're saying is that Leaf has the massive advantage due to having Skytowers to provide lasting platforms for long-ranged reconnaissance.
 
Ultimately it depends on if your tax collectors or daimyo can collect taxes, because otherwise there's no real reason in guarding villages that you don't collect taxes on.
 
Mari is a jonin infiltrator, if Leafy hasn't noticed anything important enough to warrant her attention yet it would be a waste to send one of Leaf's few jonin.
She's also a potent combat asset with the wombo combo that is Shadow Clone and TLitF (no Price), enough so that Leaf may be unwilling to risk her as an infiltration asset when she could be one of the Rooks or Queens being deployed later in the game.
 
  • Scribe and deliver skytowers and skywalkers.
I would recommend deleting this entirely for similar reasons as those stated here.
  • Orochimaru situation is hopefully resolved.
    • Orochimaru psychically attacked Mari and she shouldn't be deployed for a week.
    • Explain if requested, don't mention Shikamaru's ultimatum or Mari-Kei split.
Asuma knows the Orochimaru situation's been resolved. I don't...expect him to summon Mari to a mission in a week and she would absolutely tell Asuma if her injuries are that bad. Possibly nix this.
If Mist allies with us, a home-front Wakahisa could chakra-fill a summoner, then Noburi can retrieve that chakra from the Seventh Path and distribute it to summoners anywhere in the EN.
  • Allows a summoner to have all their summons out at once and still fight at full capacity.
  • Works with Noburi and Wakahisa flipped.
  • OPSEC concerns?
If we're talking Wakahisa-Summoner stuff, we should talk about how to handle the whole water poisoning thing.
 
This seems disingenuous. Given that Snowflake is a ninjutsu effect and also will pop if he so much as pokes her with a scalpel, what do you expect him to do in order to study her?
Presumably non-violent/damaging tests. The way most scientists would. It's a cognitive difference here that he's searching for, and on a shadow clone, something he should know is fragile, cutting her open first thing doesn't really make sense. Also more importantly, she's a nice distraction that can save time for others to avoid Orochimaru's wrath/interest.
 
@eaglejarl @Velorien
I am a little unsure how detailed I can or should be on how to research 3D sealing. On the one hand, saying "theorize how to do 3D seals" is pretty useless and put's a lot of the work on y'all, but on the other sealing is pure technobabble and is thus too abstracted for me to outline any actual experiments. I tried to strike a middle ground here by leaving most of specifics up to Hazōpilot while still suggesting useful avenues of exploration and resources that might be helpful. Let me know if things need to be less (or, in theory, more) specific.
Bumping this
@eaglejarl @Velorien
 
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