wat about the time to mention the overview and/or specifics of wat such a deal would be?
  1. Definitions: Hereinafter, Asuma, Tsunade, Shikamaru, and Mari will be collectively referred to as "Trusted Parties".
  2. Procedure: Hazou undergoes a consensual, non-lethal vivisection (hereinafter referred to as "the procedure") at Orochimaru's hand. Orochimaru is to be allowed to gather any information he desires about the Iron Nerve bloodline via any means necessary within the scope of the procedure, provided that:
    1. Hazou survives the procedure, and suffers no permanent damage (including but not limited to: physical, psychological, cognitive, emotional, agentic, and metaphysical damage), nor moderate-to-severe damage lasting more than one (1) month.
      1. This point is considered to be violated if any one of the Trusted Parties or Hazou considers it to be violated.
    2. Hazou receives a full report on Orochimaru's findings with regards to his bloodline's and body's functionality, in a form Hazou, Noburi, or Mari could understand.
    3. The Gouketsu receive appropriate compensation for allowing the procedure to take place (appropriate forms of compensation outlined under point 3 below).
  3. Compensation:
    1. Appropriate forms of compensation include: jutsu, bioaugmentations, seals, other valuable esoteric knowledge, personal favours owed by Orochimaru to the Gouketsu.
    2. Compensatation must meet all of the following criteria, as judged by the Trusted Parties:
      1. Fair.
      2. Provided in a timely manner.
      3. Accompanied by a thorough description of its functionality, failure modes, edge cases, caveats, et cetera.
      4. Constructed in good faith.
    3. The specifics of the compensation shall be agreed upon at any later date preceding the procedure, either from a list of options presented by Orochimaru, or in the process of dynamic discussion between Orochimaru, Hazou, and any other parties Hazou would wish to include in it.
  4. Assurances:
    1. Tsunade oversees the procedure, and confirms Orochimaru's faithful adherence to points 2.1, 2.2, and 2.3 of this agreement.
    2. No less than three (3) Trusted Parties oversee the fulfillment of point 3.3, and confirm that Orochimaru fulfilled it in good faith, abstaining from games of intimidation, manipulation, misdirection, and other subtrefuge.
    3. Asuma agrees that, if the outcome of the procedure is that Hazou suffers one of the conditions outlined under point 2.1, Asuma will treat it the same way he would treat Orochimaru kidnapping and non-consensually dissecting a Clan Head for the purposes of stealing their clan's clan secrets, regardless of any explanations and justifications Orochimaru or Tsunade may provide.
    4. After familiarizing themselves with this deal, none of the Trusted Parties expect it to result in Hazou suffering one of the conditions outlined under point 2.1, or otherwise have an outcome that significantly differs from their best understanding of Hazou's expectations.
  5. Best Alternative to This Agreement: Orochimaru agrees to indefinitely stop pursuing non-consensual research into the bodies of the current Gouketsu clan members, and exert no pressure (whether of physical, financial, political, social, emotional, metaphysical, or any other kind) upon them with the goal (whether primary or secondary) of extracting such consent.
That was fun.
We can't override dice by having Hazou pre-commit to specific conversations. His injured body and brain will not be able to handle the stress of interacting with Oro.
So have someone give it to Oro in written form, then. Or have Asuma/Tsunade stand in the room making sure Oro isn't being mean or the agreement is void. Come on.
 
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I doubt it or the Wakahisa would rule the world
Maybe they do. Maybe Zabuza's actually a Wakahisa in disguise. Maybe they're everywhere. WHY ARE ALL THE TREES SHAKING?

Who would have thought celebrating the successful battle would be more dangerous than the battle itself?

.......is it possible we have a problem?
Let's be realistic. It's Hazō and us we're talking about. It was always going to be.
 
I accept your bargain: two votes in the future in exchange for a plan made and updated for this upcoming chapter. How do I cash in those votes?

[X] Action Plan: Safety in Numbers
  • Return to our game night as quickly and as safely as Hazou deems possible, asking for assistance from trusted sources (like Akane) if necessary
  • Keep the party going while sending a trusted and fast runner to the Tower with the following message:
    • "Orochimaru is 'inadvertently' causing an interclan incident. Need your help to stay out of his basement, will explain more later. - Hazou"
  • Find Kei and tell her not to leave since Orochimaru is suddenly very interested in her bloodline side effects
  • Spend 1 FP (if necessary) to ensure Shikamaru is at the party
    • Once we find him and Kei explain the situation in full, prioritizing the most pertinent information
      • The Nara might have a plan for this happening to anyone/Kei that could be implemented
    • If Nara contingencies for Orochimaru are unsatisfactory, begin brainstorming:
      • Will Asuma's authority be enough to keep Orochimaru away?
      • Should we inform the other clan ninja here about what transpired?
      • Can we have someone capable of withstanding Orochimaru's intimidations barter with him before he gets back?
        • Can any of us think of someone who would be able to do so on our behalf and on such short notice?
          • {Suggestions welcome from the thread. Will edit in names or edit this line out if we can't think of anyone}
      • Should Kei and Hazou reverse summon to keep themselves safe in the short term?
      • Should they instead skywalk with Akane carrying Hazou to the Tower or wherever they believe Asuma to be at this time?
  • Execute the following contingencies based on when Orochimaru finds us:
    • Still outside? Reverse summon
    • Back in the compound? Have Akane physically keep Hazou's jaw shut so he can't blab clan secrets and carry him to Asuma
    • After coming to a conclusion with Kei and Shikamaru? Execute the plan the three of them created

Current word count: 301 including blue text

Further suggestions welcome

Oh, I meant that Kei still runs away, just not Hazou. Though vote cashing is just pinging me for a vote your like my support on in the future.
 
  1. Definitions: Hereinafter, Asuma, Tsunade, Shikamaru, and Mari will be collectively referred to as "Trusted Parties".
  2. Procedure: Hazou undergoes a consensual, non-lethal vivisection (hereinafter referred to as "the procedure") at Orochimaru's hand. Orochimaru is to be allowed to gather any information he desires about the Iron Nerve bloodline via any means necessary within the scope of the procedure, provided that:
    1. Hazou survives the procedure, and suffers no permanent damage (including but not limited to: physical, psychological, cognitive, emotional, agentic, and metaphysical damage), nor moderate-to-severe damage lasting more than one (1) month.
      1. This point is considered to be violated if any one of the Trusted Parties or Hazou considers it to be violated.
    2. Hazou receives a full report on Orochimaru's findings with regards to his bloodline's and body's functionality, in a form Hazou, Noburi, or Mari could understand.
    3. The Gouketsu receive appropriate compensation for allowing the procedure to take place (appropriate forms of compensation outlined under point 3 below).
  3. Compensation:
    1. Appropriate forms of compensation include: jutsu, bioaugmentations, seals, other valuable esoteric knowledge, personal favours owed by Orochimaru to the Gouketsu.
    2. Compensatation must meet all of the following criteria, as judged by the Trusted Parties:
      1. Fair.
      2. Provided in a timely manner.
      3. Accompanied by a thorough description of its functionality, failure modes, edge cases, caveats, et cetera.
      4. Constructed in good faith.
    3. The specifics of the compensation shall be agreed upon at any later date preceding the procedure, either from a list of options presented by Orochimaru, or in the process of dynamic discussion between Orochimaru, Hazou, and any other parties Hazou would wish to include in it.
  4. Assurances:
    1. Tsunade oversees the procedure, and confirms Orochimaru's faithful adherence to points 2.1, 2.2, and 2.3 of this agreement.
    2. No less than three (3) Trusted Parties oversee the fulfillment of point 3.3, and confirm that Orochimaru fulfilled it in good faith, abstaining from games of intimidation, manipulation, misdirection, and other subtrefuge.
    3. Asuma agrees that, if the outcome of the procedure is that Hazou suffers one of the conditions outlined under point 2.1, Asuma will treat it the same way he would treat Orochimaru kidnapping and non-consensually dissecting a Clan Head for the purposes of stealing their clan's clan secrets.
    4. After familiarizing themselves with this deal, none of the Trusted Parties expect it to result in Hazou suffering one of the conditions outlined under point 2.1, or otherwise have an outcome that significantly differs from their best understanding of Hazou's expectations.
  5. Best Alternative to This Agreement: Orochimaru agrees to indefinitely stop pursuing non-consensual research into the bodies of the current Gouketsu clan members, and exert no pressure (whether of physical, financial, political, social, emotional, metaphysical, or any other kind) upon them with the goal (whether primary or secondary) of extracting such consent.
That was fun.

So have someone give it to Oro in written form, then. Or have Asuma/Tsunade stand in the room making sure Oro isn't being mean or the agreement is void. Come on.
See this is why you should be in charge of negotiations. I would suggest that we include Oro providing some Collateral to be held by a trusted party
 
Adhoc vote count started by Velorien on Oct 27, 2021 at 7:22 AM, finished with 146 posts and 14 votes.
  • 18

    [X] Action Plan: "Get Help"
    [X] Action Plan: Sufficiently Straightforward Steps Supply Secrecy
    [X] Action Plan: Safety in Numbers
    [X] Action Plan: The Soul of Iron forged in the crucible of The God Flaying knife
    [X] Action Plan: Why waste time say lot word when few word do trick?
    [X] Action Plan: "Get Help" + Spend FP
    [X] Action Plan: "Get Help" + Mention Idea
    [X] Action Plan: "Get Help" + Spend FP + Mention Idea
    [X] Action Plan: Sufficiently Straightforward Steps Supply Secrecy + Spend FP
    [X] Action Plan: Sufficiently Straightforward Steps Supply Secrecy + Mention Idea
    [X] Action Plan: Sufficiently Straightforward Steps Supply Secrecy + Spend FP + Mention Idea
Voting is closed.

 
Hazou can't. We can. We can draft a deal here, load it into Hazou's mind, have him commit to not deviating from it, then present it to Oro and ask him to take it or leave it, with maybe some minor implementation details as variables.

I think it could be done, and would be fairly beneficial — more beneficial than the run-away-get-help approaches — though I don't have the time/spoons to campaign for it.
Reminder: Hazou-pilot exists and can/will act independently to alter or veto details of an action plan. We-the-hivemind have no control over Hazou-pilot's executive decisions.

Reminder: The hivemind can draft a perfect action plan, but Hazou-the-character can fail to perfectly implement it. The Minami Trade Deal Discussion had a damn near perfect action plan, but Hazou-the-character was unable to execute it perfectly due to social stats.

Point of Order: I am highly uncomfortable with the potential body horror/dysmorphia inherent with the player character voluntarily submitting to Orochimaru's experimentation/research. I will actively vote against such action plans, for reasons mentioned many times before.

Edit:

Suggestion: We give Orochimaru a different Kurosawa as a distraction. Perhaps Shin?
 
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Reminder: Hazou-pilot exists and can/will act independently to alter or veto details of action plans. We-the-hivemind have no control over Hazou-pilot's executive decisions.

Reminder: The hivemind can draft a perfect action plan, but Hazou-the-character can fail to perfectly implement it. The Minami Trade Deal Discussion had a damn near perfect action plan, but Hazou-the-character was unable to execute it perfectly due to social stats.
Then once again don't send Hazou to negotiate it. We can send Mari backed by Tsunade to send are written draft. We can send a summon to deliver the message and then return a response from Orochimaru and then send a rebuttal with an updated plan for next update. If you are saying that you inherently believe that negotiating with Oro can not be done that's one thing but there are ways to circumvent Oro being able to threaten Hazou to thwart negotiations being in good face
 
Tsunade may not want to willingly allow a patient to hurt themselves
Yes that might be a problem. Which is why trusted parties would need to agree to provide arbitration in the first place. That is one of the steps that we would be required to complete before initiating negotiations with Orochimaru
 
Have we ever considered that Hazou-pilot will go "no that's bonkers" if we ever vote in a voluntary vivisection plan? I mean, it is bonkers, so I don't blame him.
 
Point of Order: I am highly uncomfortable with the potential body horror/dysmorphia inherent with the player character voluntarily submitting to Orochimaru's experimentation/research. I will actively vote against such action plans, for reasons mentioned many times before.
How would you feel about a non-invasive procedure? If Oro has ability to do scans comparable to x-ray, MRI's or other such procedures would you be willing to accept going through them provided Tsunade gave her expert opinion that they would be safe?

Second question how would you feel about providing Oro with a periodic donation of blood from all of the Goketsu who have novel bloodlines
 
How would you feel about a non-invasive procedure? If Oro has ability to do scans comparable to x-ray, MRI's or other such procedures would you be willing to accept going through them provided Tsunade gave her expert opinion that they would be safe?

Question, if Hazou is important enough to convince Oro to not murder him, and instead obtaining incomplete data, why wouldn't Oro just kidnap another Iron Nerve user instead of going with this complicated research?
In short, if we have enough power to stop him from killing us, then my model of Oro says "He kidnap someone else" not "He accepts non-invasive procedures". It seems just a needlessly complicated idea in my opinion.
 
  1. Definitions: Hereinafter, Asuma, Tsunade, Shikamaru, and Mari will be collectively referred to as "Trusted Parties".
  2. Procedure: Hazou undergoes a consensual, non-lethal vivisection (hereinafter referred to as "the procedure") at Orochimaru's hand. Orochimaru is to be allowed to gather any information he desires about the Iron Nerve bloodline via any means necessary within the scope of the procedure, provided that:
    1. Hazou survives the procedure, and suffers no permanent damage (including but not limited to: physical, psychological, cognitive, emotional, agentic, and metaphysical damage), nor moderate-to-severe damage lasting more than one (1) month.
      1. This point is considered to be violated if any one of the Trusted Parties or Hazou considers it to be violated.
    2. Hazou receives a full report on Orochimaru's findings with regards to his bloodline's and body's functionality, in a form Hazou, Noburi, or Mari could understand.
    3. The Gouketsu receive appropriate compensation for allowing the procedure to take place (appropriate forms of compensation outlined under point 3 below).
  3. Compensation:
    1. Appropriate forms of compensation include: jutsu, bioaugmentations, seals, other valuable esoteric knowledge, personal favours owed by Orochimaru to the Gouketsu.
    2. Compensatation must meet all of the following criteria, as judged by the Trusted Parties:
      1. Fair.
      2. Provided in a timely manner.
      3. Accompanied by a thorough description of its functionality, failure modes, edge cases, caveats, et cetera.
      4. Constructed in good faith.
    3. The specifics of the compensation shall be agreed upon at any later date preceding the procedure, either from a list of options presented by Orochimaru, or in the process of dynamic discussion between Orochimaru, Hazou, and any other parties Hazou would wish to include in it.
  4. Assurances:
    1. Tsunade oversees the procedure, and confirms Orochimaru's faithful adherence to points 2.1, 2.2, and 2.3 of this agreement.
    2. No less than three (3) Trusted Parties oversee the fulfillment of point 3.3, and confirm that Orochimaru fulfilled it in good faith, abstaining from games of intimidation, manipulation, misdirection, and other subtrefuge.
    3. Asuma agrees that, if the outcome of the procedure is that Hazou suffers one of the conditions outlined under point 2.1, Asuma will treat it the same way he would treat Orochimaru kidnapping and non-consensually dissecting a Clan Head for the purposes of stealing their clan's clan secrets.
    4. After familiarizing themselves with this deal, none of the Trusted Parties expect it to result in Hazou suffering one of the conditions outlined under point 2.1, or otherwise have an outcome that significantly differs from their best understanding of Hazou's expectations.
  5. Best Alternative to This Agreement: Orochimaru agrees to indefinitely stop pursuing non-consensual research into the bodies of the current Gouketsu clan members, and exert no pressure (whether of physical, financial, political, social, emotional, metaphysical, or any other kind) upon them with the goal (whether primary or secondary) of extracting such consent.
That was fun.

So have someone give it to Oro in written form, then. Or have Asuma/Tsunade stand in the room making sure Oro isn't being mean or the agreement is void. Come on.
This is really solid. My only concern is making it a... continuous deterrent, I guess? May need to include a stipulation for how frequently Oro can do this kind of procedure so he doesn't try to pressure for more
 
I'm not eager to give away bloodline secrets to Oro for basically nothing. Since there's no guarantee he wouldn't take what we offer, then get more interested in the IN and decide that he doesn't mind breaking the agreement after all. He almost kidnapped Hazou in the last update for that very reason.

I have no idea why you guys seem to think he can get all he wants from Hazou without permanent damage. To put it mildly, that does not seem likely to me.
 
Any interaction we have with Oro is going to involve dice.

Again, not currently mechanically possible.
I disagree.

I'm less worried about immediate dissection and more concerned with Hazou blabbing anything and everything Oro could want to hear about clan and bloodline secrets.
Why would Oro intimidate Hazou into blabbing all his secrets in response to Hazou giving Oro a suggestion?
Betting that Oro has a sense of morality seems like a losing bet to me.
It's not betting. It's gathering info.
Is this a joke? He regularly used to kidnap and torture/murder people. He'll sure as shit intimidate anyone if he wants to.
As I've said before, we don't know the full details of that.
 
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If Oro has ability to do scans comparable to x-ray, MRI's or other such procedures

I think that's why he got so excited in the first place. For Oro it wasn't "I can instantly download seals" it was "I can save a 3D image in my head".

But yes, non invasive procedures sound nice. We can also ask Ren for some of our blood-relative corpses for Uncle Oro.

We have practically given away all IN Bloodline secrets, might as well ask them if they want to cooperate with the greates amoral biosealmaster on Earth. If he gets interested enough he will just abdut them anyway.

I have no idea why you guys seem to think he can get all he wants from Hazou without permanent damage. To put it mildly, that does not seem likely to me.

Ask Ren, they have been studying their bloodline for whatever centuries. Maybe get some corpses from our "allies" in Mist.

Also welcome to the quest, how did you find us?
 
Question, if Hazou is important enough to convince Oro to not murder him, and instead obtaining incomplete data, why wouldn't Oro just kidnap another Iron Nerve user instead of going with this complicated research?
In short, if we have enough power to stop him from killing us, then my model of Oro says "He kidnap someone else" not "He accepts non-invasive procedures". It seems just a needlessly complicated idea in my opinion.
He might, the point is we are offering a way to get some data that he wants with minimal efforts without suffering the consequences that comes from abducting someone of our stature

This is really solid. My only concern is making it a... continuous deterrent, I guess? May need to include a stipulation for how frequently Oro can do this kind of procedure so he doesn't try to pressure for more

I would make sure that any agreement we make include that any proposal must go through arbitrage with the trusted parties. With a penalty defined to be enforced by the arbitrator

Since there's no guarantee he wouldn't take what we offer, then get more interested in the IN and decide that he doesn't mind breaking the agreement after all. He almost kidnapped Hazou in the last update for that very reason.
Because there would a step penalty for breaking the agreement which we would work out with Asuma in the first place. I would also expand the penalty to include contacting Mist that Oro has forcibly tried to obtain clan secrets from our former clans.
 
Because there would a step penalty for breaking the agreement which we would work out with Asuma in the first place. I would also expand the penalty to include contacting Mist that Oro has forcibly tried to obtain clan secrets from our former clans.

There exists no force in Leaf that would actually deter Orochimaru from breaking the deal if he chooses to. Tsunade is his comrade(?), and Naruto doesn't care about Hazou enough to risk his life punishing Orochimaru. Asuma isn't strong enough without their support.

I've said as much previously. But say Oro claims that a tragic accident occurred and Hazou died on the table because of an unexpected allergic reaction (or whatever). By doing so he presents any enforcer with a fait accompli, accept what happened and move on, or destroy 1/3 of Leaf's S-Rankers with no guarantee of victory.

Oro doesn't need an ironclad story, all he needs to do is create enough doubt that Asuma can let things go without too much of a fuss. Which would be unquestionably the right decision from a realpolitik point of view. Oro is too valuable to the defense of Leaf.

Obviously Asuma would have to make restitution to the Goketsu, but that won't really matter because the quest will be over.
 
There exists no force in Leaf that would actually deter Orochimaru from breaking the deal if he chooses to. Tsunade is his comrade(?), and Naruto doesn't care about Hazou enough to risk his life punishing Orochimaru. Asuma isn't strong enough without their support.

I've said as much previously. But say Oro claims that a tragic accident occurred and Hazou died on the table because of an unexpected allergic reaction (or whatever). By doing so he presents any enforcer with a fait accompli, accept what happened and move on, or destroy 1/3 of Leaf's S-Rankers with no guarantee of victory.

Oro doesn't need an ironclad story, all he needs to do is create enough doubt that Asuma can let things go without too much of a fuss. Which would be unquestionably the right decision from a realpolitik point of view. Oro is too valuable to the defense of Leaf.

Obviously Asuma would have to make restitution to the Goketsu, but that won't really matter because the quest will be over.
Your conclusions might be right but as of right now we don't have enough information to know that these are true.
Regardless we currently have a problem. Orochimaru is currently planning on kidnapping Hazou and or Kei. This is a line that we a pursuing to keep that from being a game over. I would appreciate it if instead of just saying an idea is unworkable offer up alternatives to solving the problem. That way we would have more lines to try to polish into a workable plan
 
Your conclusions might be right but as of right now we don't have enough information to know that these are true.
Regardless we currently have a problem. Orochimaru is currently planning on kidnapping Hazou and or Kei. This is a line that we a pursuing to keep that from being a game over. I would appreciate it if instead of just saying an idea is unworkable offer up alternatives to solving the problem. That way we would have more lines to try to polish into a workable plan
Fair enough, we'll have to wait and see how the update plays out. I am currently in favor of "manage the current crisis, don't make drastic moves, hope Oro goes back to his den lab sooner rather than later".
 
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