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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Unrelatedly, I'm doing some research on actually making a hot air balloon. Does anyone have a link to how Elemental Mastery works?

Also trying to figure out if there's any low-tech way to get the kind of fabric one would need.

e: It looks like we need to generate around 1200 lbs of lift according to wikipedia, adding the weight of unremovable equipment (Nobby's barrel, etc.) and removing the weight of burners and whatnot -- less, actually, as because we need less lift we also need less fabric. However, the amount of fabric needed is pretty massive and I haven't yet calculated how much less we can make it. It'd probably be better for someone else to, as I'm not very familiar with the maths involved here.
 
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Cariyaga said:
No worries, I'm pretty sure every player that's been actively involved in this quest for more than week has created work for them. :V

e: And those that haven't have made them say something to the effect of "Oh god what did we just do". I really look forward to the point where we get to make them say that with regards to thermostat no jutsu.
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Pssh, I take it as a point of pride to munchkin with as many abilities and opportunities as I can get my greedy little hands on as hard as possible:

Getting Sealing 10 ASAP,
Making a trade empire,
Using newly invented forensic accounting on the Liberator village,
Politicking with Hill Billy village rather than stealing the scroll and running,
Creating a fleet of airships from a harmless survival technique,
Making spaceships out of modified explosive seals,
Establishing the Village Hidden in Low Earth Orbit,
Constructing an Orbital Weapons Platform,
Abusing the summon realm for long range teleportation of goods with more to come,
Making lightsabers out of force walls by tricking the seal into thinking the handle's center of mass is the center of the Earth,
And some others I'm probably forgetting, all make the quest, in my opinion, much more fun. Not all of my goals panned out, but for the ones we attempted things remained interesting (or at least novel). If all we do is punch things, the whole quest will get boring. How many quests on this site alone revolve around fighting your way through all of your problems? How many allow you the freedom to attempt to choose your own path, even if it's something as insane as uplifting a society from Feudalism to the Space Age in less than one generation with the help of poorly understood yet terribly dangerous magic? Trying new ideas and pushing the envelope on what we can do keeps the story fresh, original, and engaging. It's why I keep coming back.

For me, if it's to be as fun as possible it's worth a few headaches. I sincerely hope all y'all, other players and QM's too, feel the same way.
 
Dictator4Hire said:
Pssh, I take it as a point of pride to munchkin with as many abilities and opportunities as I can get my greedy little hands on as hard as possible:

Getting Sealing 10 ASAP,
Making a trade empire,
Using newly invented forensic accounting on the Liberator village,
Politicking with Hill Billy village rather than stealing the scroll and running,
Creating a fleet of airships from a harmless survival technique,
Making spaceships out of modified explosive seals,
Establishing the Village Hidden in Low Earth Orbit,
Constructing an Orbital Weapons Platform,
Abusing the summon realm for long range teleportation of goods with more to come,
Making lightsabers out of force walls by tricking the seal into thinking the handle's center of mass is the center of the Earth,
And some others I'm probably forgetting, all make the quest, in my opinion, much more fun. Not all of my goals panned out, but for the ones we attempted things remained interesting (or at least novel). If all we do is punch things, the whole quest will get boring. How many quests on this site alone revolve around fighting your way through all of your problems? How many allow you the freedom to attempt to choose your own path, even if it's something as insane as uplifting a society from Feudalism to the Space Age in less than one generation with the help of poorly understood yet terribly dangerous magic? Trying new ideas and pushing the envelope on what we can do keeps the story fresh, original, and engaging. It's why I keep coming back.

For me, if it's to be as fun as possible it's worth a few headaches. I sincerely hope all y'all, other players and QM's too, feel the same way.
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Oh, I absolutely do. :D

Once we get to Sealing 15 or so, I think we should work with Kagome on creating summoning seals. Not cross-dimensional ones, though.
 
Cariyaga said:
Once we get to Sealing 15 or so, I think we should work with Kagome on creating summoning seals. Not cross-dimensional ones, though.
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Yep.

Leaf has an Iruka summoning scroll(s) that they used during the second stage of the chunin exam.

Edit: of course, if we make two linked seals, one that summons us to itself, and one that activates the first, then we effectively have Flying Thunder God.
 
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MadScientist said:
Yep.

Leaf has an Iruka summoning scroll(s) that they used during the second stage of the chunin exam.

Edit: of course, if we make two linked seals, one that summons us to itself, and one that activates the first, then we effectively have Flying Thunder God.
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This is, however, pointedly a project that I would like to cooperate with him on. PMYF is application of known principles, but deciphering and reapplying the principles of the Summoning Scroll is something else entirely.
 
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eaglejarl said:
I will make the point that the lives of commoners suck. You could likely recruit a bunch just by offering protection, three meals a day, and a sense of purpose. And they'd be delighted at the offer and ridiculously loyal if treated well.
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we could maybe staff the NUN with well-trained seal-bearing civilians?

Dictator4Hire said:
Account is less than a week old, already had his first plan win an election, and now he's already planning how to pull off a coup d'etat.

...they just grow up so fast.
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Psh, ~24 hours old at this point

Cariyaga said:
Unrelatedly, I'm doing some research on actually making a hot air balloon. Does anyone have a link to how Elemental Mastery works?

Also trying to figure out if there's any low-tech way to get the kind of fabric one would need.

e: It looks like we need to generate around 1200 lbs of lift according to wikipedia, adding the weight of unremovable equipment (Nobby's barrel, etc.) and removing the weight of burners and whatnot -- less, actually, as because we need less lift we also need less fabric. However, the amount of fabric needed is pretty massive and I haven't yet calculated how much less we can make it. It'd probably be better for someone else to, as I'm not very familiar with the maths involved here.
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Gonna try and do the math here... brand spanking new engineering undergrad degree don't fail me now...

Description of EM is here:
Velorien said:
​
Elemental Mastery Technique details:

Effect: The user can raise or lower ambient temperature of a fixed area by 5 °C/level over a few seconds. The insides of objects and creatures are not affected directly.

Duration: Concentration (hand seals maintained) + 10 min/level. Afterwards, the temperature gradually drifts back to normal.

Cost: 3 chakra/5 °C

Area: 3 m radius + 1 m/level

Requirements: Resolve x 3, Control x 3
​
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According to google, 1200lbs is 5337.866 newtons in sanity units.

Using sea-level conditions (288.15K, air at a density of 1.225 kg/m3​ according to a quick search) and akane's current maximum increase of 25K at EM 5:

1.225/((288.15+25)/288.15) gives us 1.12720341689 kg/m3​ for a difference of 0.0977965831 kg/m3​

Multiply that by 9.80665 for force of gravity to get a net force of 0.95905686172 n per cubic meter of air.

Akane's current max radius of 8m means a volume of 2144.66058485m

Overall she can produce 2056.85144998 newtons of lift, less than half of what we need. She will be able to produce sufficient lift at EM 7 (roughly 5450 n). This may change at higher altitudes due to differences in atmospheric pressure and temperature, but since we definitely need to take off from the ground it's a good starting point.

Note that this will require a sphere of fabric 20m across, total surface area around 1256 square meters. Anyone want to check my math?
(Lift = 4/3*pi*(EM level + 3)^3*(9.80665*(1.225-1.225/((288.15+ EM level * 5)/288.15)))
 
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OliWhail said:
Given:

we could maybe staff the NUN with well-trained seal-bearing civilians?


Psh, ~24 hours old at this point



Gonna try and do the math here... brand spanking new engineering undergrad degree don't fail me now...

Description of EM is here:

According to google, 1200lbs is 5337.866 newtons in sanity units.

Using sea-level conditions (288.15K, air at a density of 1.225 kg/m3​ according to a quick search) and akane's current maximum increase of 25K at EM 5:

1.225/((288.15+25)/288.15) gives us 1.12720341689 kg/m3​ for a difference of 0.0977965831 kg/m3​

Multiply that by 9.80665 for force of gravity to get a net force of 0.95905686172 n per cubic meter of air.

Akane's current max radius of 8m means a volume of 2144.66058485m

Overall she can produce 2056.85144998 newtons of lift, less than half of what we need. She will be able to produce sufficient lift at EM 7 (roughly 5450 n). This may change at higher altitudes due to differences in atmospheric pressure and temperature, but since we definitely need to take off from the ground it's a good starting point.

Note that this will require a sphere of fabric 20m across, total surface area around 1256 square meters. Anyone want to check my math?
(Lift = 4/3*pi*(EM level + 3)^3*(9.80665*(1.225-1.225/((288.15+ EM level * 5)/288.15)))
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Here's the wikipedia page on hot air balloons; it has several formulas and stuff that are beyond my comprehension, but you might be able to do something with them.

So, I had a thought regarding the nature of our condition as missing nin. For anyone familiar with the setting of Shadowrun, our position bears some similarity to SINners in the shadows. I haven't played around with it much myself, but I thought this analogy might give one of you some inspiration.

re: Seal-bearing civilians, that's a thought. We could train them in the use of chakra just enough to be able to use seals.
 
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MadScientist said:
Yep.

Leaf has an Iruka summoning scroll(s) that they used during the second stage of the chunin exam.

Edit: of course, if we make two linked seals, one that summons us to itself, and one that activates the first, then we effectively have Flying Thunder God.
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Ah, another of the many, many ninjutsu hapax legomena of the Narutoverse that exist solely to make the lives of QMs difficult. You realise that those scrolls didn't even need chakra to activate?
 
Got more data using this site Aerospaceweb.org | Atmospheric Properties Calculator and went into MATLAB to produce the following plot of lift at different altitudes for various levels of EM (the line with triangles is how much we need in order to fly):
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According to these estimates, we actually need EM 8 to make an airship viable.

Cariyaga said:
For anyone familiar with the setting of Shadowrun...
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Ah, my people! Man, a Shadowrun quest like this one would be stupendous.
 
@eaglejarl @Velorien Be prepared for loads of sealing questions as soon as we get out of the VHitM. You have been warned. (that sounds a lot more foreboding than I'd intended... although I'm sure it evokes a feeling of dread regardless.)
OliWhail said:
Got more data using this site Aerospaceweb.org | Atmospheric Properties Calculator and went into MATLAB to produce the following plot of lift at different altitudes for various levels of EM (the line with triangles is how much we need in order to fly):
​

According to these estimates, we actually need EM 8 to make an airship viable.


Ah, my people! Man, a Shadowrun quest like this one would be stupendous.
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We'll also need some kind of technique to steer the ship, although Mari, Jiraiya, the pangolin, or someone might be able to find something like that. Otherwise we'll have to depend on the whims of the winds. Or we could make a proper airship with seal-reinforced, lightweight materials. That might work, though it would be a more expensive project.

Still, that's far less EM than I might have thought. This... is actually quite doable. I wanna see Mari's response to Akane's faith being rewarded.
 
For reference:
Hot Air Balloon Physics

Maybe we don't need to worry about it (since it would make all of our lives easier), but how does EM interact with the air outside of the affected radius, if at all? I'm only asking because in EM's description it says that the technique raises the temperature in a fixed area, but according to the ideal gas law (PV = nRT) you can't affect the temperature without affecting the volume of air. Could we clarify the technique so that the air stays heated evenly inside the designated radius but begins to cool off once the change in pressure causes the air to move outside of the affected zone?

Overriding the laws of physics makes things weird and I doubt it was intended. A simple WoG would be great.
 
Dictator4Hire said:
For reference:
Hot Air Balloon Physics

Maybe we don't need to worry about it (since it would make all of our lives easier), but how does EM interact with the air outside of the affected radius, if at all? I'm only asking because in EM's description it says that the technique raises the temperature in a fixed area, but according to the ideal gas law (PV = nRT) you can't affect the temperature without affecting the volume of air. Could we clarify the technique so that the air stays heated evenly inside the designated radius but begins to cool off once the change in pressure causes the air to move outside of the affected zone?

Overriding the laws of physics makes things weird and I doubt it was intended. A simple WoG would be great.
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I've sort of been presuming that the extra gas will just sort of leave as it all expands, or a sealed container will get more pressurized, as with any other heat source
 
OliWhail said:
I've sort of been presuming that the extra gas will just sort of leave as it all expands, or a sealed container will get more pressurized, as with any other heat source
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Which is the sane and logical thing to do. I might be misremembering, but I think there was something said a long time ago that EM creates a sort of pocket of heated air that has a defined edge of hot inside and cold outside with the normally dissipating gas going ??? because magic. I think it was meant as a way to explain why everyone in Hill Billy Mountain had to learn the technique for the winter and not just stack up EM users together for centralized heating or something. Or it was a way to ensure that things made by chakra don't last and they were applying the same logic behind the water from water techniques vanishing after a set duration. It definitely wasn't (or wouldn't have been) just "because we said so".

I hope I'm wrong, not remembering it properly, or had poor reading comprehension at the time.
 
Dictator4Hire said:
Which is the sane and logical thing to do. I might be misremembering, but I think there was something said a long time ago that EM creates a sort of pocket of heated air that has a defined edge of hot inside and cold outside with the normally dissipating gas going ??? because magic. I think it was meant as a way to explain why everyone in Hill Billy Mountain had to learn the technique for the winter and not just stack up EM users together for centralized heating or something. Or it was a way to ensure that things made by chakra don't last and they were applying the same logic behind the water from water techniques vanishing after a set duration. It definitely wasn't (or wouldn't have been) just "because we said so".

I hope I'm wrong, not remembering it properly, or had poor reading comprehension at the time.
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I mean, either way, she could target it near the top of the hot air balloon; most of the air in one is relatively cool. It'd require more math to determine exactly what impact this would have on our plans, but...
 
So I thought about sneaking back to Mist and becoming Mizukage. Since, you know, conquering them will be hard, and won't win us any favours. And waiting for the rebellion to happen due to bloodline purges (if any of that even happens) will take too long. So, if we're going to get this done anywhere near quickly, sneaking back in is the way to go.

Of course, sneaking back in is hard. We have the advantage of actually knowing the city and mannerisms and people, but we're still sneaking into a ninja village. Not to mention the fact that the only way I see it happening is if we have everyone (or at least Hazou due to Iron Nerve making it easier to copy and replace someone) get a fuckton of levels in henge and deception. From there we become/replace academy students. Preferably orphans. If Mari can swing it, she should replace another jounin.

Failing that, at least have everyone level Deception and have Noburi surgically alter all of bodies then enter as a family looking to settle down. Noburi can fake being a civilian easily, he just has to drop his water barrel. Of the rest of us, Mari has little enough chakra that she might be able to fake being a hopeful that the nin never picked up. But 3 of her children? They're young. (this is going to require henge levels for Hazou and kei so they can fake being a growing child).

Akane, of course, would be an adopted daughter, whose mother died giving birth on the road with them. She had nobody else, so they took her in. Akane is self taught since when she realized she had chakra. She's too old to be a proper ninja though.

Of course, this still needs some bait for them to swallow if we're going to get in. In this case it would be an Uzumaki trained sealer, Kagome our paranoid father. Mom (Inoue) talked him into joining a village for the children since, while he's very good at sealing, that's all he knows. He doesn't care about Mist attacking Uzu since they left him behind, he's been hiding for the past few decades.
 
Ridiculously Average Guy said:
Noburi can fake being a civilian easily, he just has to drop his water barrel.
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At which point he's down to 1 CP, so he effectively IS a civilian.

Ridiculously Average Guy said:
Of the rest of us, Mari has little enough chakra that she might be able to fake being a hopeful that the nin never picked up.
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*blink* Mari has little enough chakra? You've seen her make a dozen water clones at the same time, and no one runs their chakra dry in semi-hostile territory just to make carrying water easier.

Ridiculously Average Guy said:
Of course, this still needs some bait for them to swallow if we're going to get in. In this case it would be an Uzumaki trained sealer, Kagome our paranoid father.
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I am terribly excited to write that scene. Kagome will leave a Kagome-shaped hole in the wall as he goes running for the hills so fast his shadow has to catch up to him.

Citrus said:
Yeah Idk if Kagome would be for that, assuming he had more than 1 level in deception or diplomacy by then to boot
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Hey! Be nice -- he's has 2 in Deception!
 
I think Keiko's main priorities are Summoning, Capacity, and Diplomacy for the foreseeable future. Her Weapons are already stupid high, so she needs to focus entirely on maximizing her Summons Contract.

EDIT: Actually, thinking about it, the two exceptions are her remedial Taijutsu 8 training and getting Sub high enough to use PMYF easily.
 
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@eaglejarl @Velorien @Jackercracks

Sealing questions:

Are sealing languages better at some things than others?
  • If yes, what things are Hazou's language good and bad at?
  • If yes, is it possible to deliberately make your language better in specific fields?

Is it easier to invent a seal if you've already invented seals in the same field (if you aren't directly copying parts from previously designed seals)?

Is Kagome doing any research himself, that Hazou's aware of?

What factors are Hazou aware of that influence how difficult a seal is to invent?
What factors are Kagome aware of that he's willing to explain?
 
eaglejarl said:
At which point he's down to 1 CP, so he effectively IS a civilian.
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Perfect, his best feature is socializing anyways, we don't need him slinging jutsu. He'll be the public face talk with people, maybe build up a movement.
eaglejarl said:
*blink* Mari has little enough chakra? You've seen her make a dozen water clones at the same time, and no one runs their chakra dry in semi-hostile territory just to make carrying water easier.
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From the backstory update, I was under the impression that she didn't atually have all that much chakra. A good amount, sure, but 'she'll never be mizukage or anything'. Given that she would be moving constantly if she was a civilian merchant, if she didn't have all that much chakra when she was younger it would be believable for her to not have been picked up to be a nin.
eaglejarl said:
I am terribly excited to write that scene. Kagome will leave a Kagome-shaped hole in the wall as he goes running for the hills so fast his shadow has to catch up to him.
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Yeah, he'll be the biggest issue, it'll probably take intensive training for him to pick up some deception. That, or spending several weeks/months actually acting in the role (going cross country as traders while never using our real names, even in private) until he's used to it.
 
Ridiculously Average Guy said:
From the backstory update, I was under the impression that she didn't atually have all that much chakra. A good amount, sure, but 'she'll never be mizukage or anything'. Given that she would be moving constantly if she was a civilian merchant, if she didn't have all that much chakra when she was younger it would be believable for her to not have been picked up to be a nin.
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At the age of five or so, she had lower than average chakra reserves for a child of five or so who has chakra reserves.
 
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