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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Veedrac said:
So have people just given up the pretence that the Gōketsu are the good guys?
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I fail to see how the Goketsu aren't the good guys here. The Hagoromo have unilaterally banned an entire clan from marriage, unilaterally decided to decree non-heterosexual relationships toxic to society, and are blatantly threatening every other clan in the Leaf with the same weapon.

Some of the hivemind might be divided on the "how," but we're all united in our determination to make the Hagoromo retract their statements and never do anything likes this again.

Please, do tell us how we're all evil.
 
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Shrooms said:
To clarify, based on earlier discord conversation, the term "destroy" is being used to mean "reduce the political power of the Hagoromo to 0 permanently" whether by us co-opting their political power through puppetry, or what have you.
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I am on board with reducing their political power. They are clearly not sympathetic to us and have attacked the clan by accusing us of deceiving them and refusing to marry Goketsu.

However. We are a new clan. The Hagoromo have been in Leaf for decades. They have a clan council seat. I cannot imagine a concerted campaign to destroy them in a manner that removes their clan council seat (which is needed to "reduce their political power to 0 permanently") being successful, much less without consequences for us. There is no way Asuma or other clans will allow such a precedent to be set.

(Also, given that this is the internet, I'm kind of forced to interpret things rather literally, so if I shouldn't take that to mean destroying the Hagoromo, destroy probably shouldn't be the word used then.)
Cariyaga said:
I have precious little interest in allowing a pack of theocratic homophobes to save face.
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This is the snowballing destruction train I mentioned earlier. How much collateral damage are we willing to accept? What if the Hagoromo are willing to agree to marry Goketsu again and apologize about the gay marriage thing? Are you saying that you would say no, we would not accept that because it allows you to keep some political power?

Imagine telling that to Haru, or in some cases Asuma - we could have mostly ended the feud, but because they didn't want to give up everything important to them, we decided to keep going.

What I interpret the saving face comment to be (and what my opinion on it is) is saying that if we are in a situation where the Hagoromo are almost ready to give in, it would be safer and more likely for them to accept a saving-face option where they do not have to throw away their pride. If we refuse anything other than unconditional surrender, it is possible they will just not give in and stick to their guns because if they're going to lose everything anyway, they might as well do as much damage to us as possible.

I cannot understand why we've started treating destruction as a foregone conclusion. I'm not necessarily even opposed to it, as long as we think we can get away with it and it turns out to be the most feasible option. But it should not be our only option.

RandomOTP said:
I fail to see how the Goketsu aren't the good guys here. The Hagoromo have unilaterally banned an entire clan from marriage, unilaterally decided to decree non-heterosexual relationships toxic to society, and are blatantly threatening every other clan in the Leaf with the same weapon.

Some of the hivemind might be divided on the "how," but we're all united in our determination to make the Hagoromo retract their statements and never do anything likes this again.
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We lose our moral high ground if we allow collateral damage because "we didn't win hard enough." If we truly care about civilians and we want to maintain the pretense of being pragmatic enough to, as Hazou has said before, betray trust because Uplift is so important, we need to not continue to economically destroy them over political power more than necessary. That's the very thing we often look down on at ninja for doing.
 
GlassOlive said:
We lose our moral high ground if we allow collateral damage because "we didn't win hard enough." If we truly care about civilians and we want to maintain the pretense of being pragmatic enough to, as Hazou has said before, betray trust because Uplift is so important, we need to not continue to economically destroy them over political power more than necessary. That's the very thing we often look down on at ninja for doing.
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See here the thing. Oneiro's priority at the moment seems to be "Hurt people I deem to be evil". A lot of us agree with that sentiment but also want to not slaughter a lot of people as a first resort. Thus we are going to socially hurt them financially hurt them and if neither of those work do so physically.
 
Irrespective of what I think 'saving face' means (I suspect some of this disconnect is it meaning different things to different people), here's what I consider to be a desirable end-state to reach:
  • First things first, we extract an official and unambiguous change of stance on homosexuality, such that they actively say it's perfectly fine according to the Will of Fire.
  • The Goketsu look strong (they aren't pushovers, we shouldn't mess with them easily) without looking scary (if we don't rally against them now we might be in danger) to the other clans of Konoha.
    • I care about this because I want us to FOOM in relative peace, without shenanigans like the conservative half of the village biting the bullet and plotting a vote to revoke our clanship or something difficult like that before we make it to demigodhood.
  • Beyond that I don't really have a strong noted preference.
With that being my established goal, here's my take on what a desirable approach to the Hags would be once we're dangling them over the abyss.
  • We make it very clear to the Hagoromo that if we wanted to we could render them permanently destitute and beholden to us for our every whim.
  • Then, as a show of good faith to the rest of the village (i.e. make us look less scary), we visibly help the Hagoromo back up to 'making ends meet'.
  • Reiterate, however, that if they cross us again we won't be merciful a second time, so as to ensure that they don't change their doctrine back to homophobia and generally err on the side of Goketsu-friendly doctrinal interpretations.
While it would be satisfying in a way to just drop them into the abyss, I believe this plan of approach still saves all the people currently suffering from their bigotry while also leaving us in the most advantageous political situation for FOOM and thus our endgame plans to save everyone, and so it's the approach I would most like to see happen.
 
Ipsos Custodes said:
Hazo, roll for perception. Did he notice the glance to Haru?
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I mean, almost surely? I would be watching the Oyabun like a particularly friendly hawk during this meeting, if I were Hazō.

Now, the interesting thing, is that this glance is actually very telling in and of itself. It isn't a "Double check to make sure the super strongest person in the room is still comfy with the conversation.", because that person is Mari. In pretty much every capacity by a mile.

The Oyabun should know this. I know he should know this, because everyone knows the difference between Jonin and the rest of the pack.

So then, why is he looking at our wallflower bodyguard that I just brought along to get some experience and generally be silent and gloomy in the background?

Suspicious, that.
 
My minimum end goals for the Hag arc are as follows, in order of importance
  1. Dismiss/Recant their statement about non-heterosexual relationship being actively toxic to the Will of Fire, and replace it with a statement of (if not acceptance, then) neutrality (i.e. "sexual orientation doesn't have any impact the WoF whatsoever")
  2. Agree to return to the Goketsu the basic right of every other Leaf denizen: marriage
  3. The Goketsu have sufficient political/financial influence over the Hagoromo to prevent the Hag from doing this to us again
    1. Ideally, they would be in our debt, we would own businesses that they rely on, or we would have horrible Hag blackmail (etc, etc)
  4. Lord Hag apologize to Keiko (private or public, I don't care. Just that it happens)
I don't want the Hag to be fertilizer for our gardens (as tempting as an idea as that is), but mainly because it would draw the Clans' eye towards the Goketsu in ways I'd rather not happen. Right now the Clans of the Leaf see what's going on between the Hag and the Goketsu, and are wondering "Is my clan devout enough," "Do the Hagormo see our piety," "Are we next," "Is this the start of a witch hunt," and the infinite variations thereof. However, if we destroy the Hag (by which I mean: leave them in such a ruinous state that the whole clan collapses and disbands) then the collective fear and paranoia will shift towards the Goketsu, and we're not ready to face that level of hostility.

"Eaglejarl on discord:" said:
I think what's happening is that people are trying to sort out which world they want to live in:

1. The Nara damage the Hag, Hazō apologizes to them
2. The Nara damage the Hag, Hazō damages them. They continue to exist and are allowed to save face so long as they announce that same-sex relationships/marriages are fine.
3. The Nara damage the Hag, Hazō damages them. They continue to exist and are utterly humiliated. They are forced to announce that same-sex relationships/marriages are fine.
4. The Nara damage the Hag, Hazō destroys them. They no longer exist.
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Number 1 doesn't seem like enough to keep the Hag Clan from coming at us again.

I'd prefer number 3 over number 2, but if humiliating them means that the Hag don't make the announcement, I'm (begrudgingly) alright with allowing the Hag Clan to save face (still want to put them 6 feet under, but that's not the goal here. Not for me, anyway). So... main goal is 3, but I'll accept 2 with a humph and a sigh.

I want to avoid number 4, because destroying the Hag (until they are dead/disbanded) is a bad outcome for the Goketsu, because it makes us seem like a feral dog, it makes it seem that we don't pull punches, and that every altercation with the Goketsu will be an existential one.

I also feel an extremely reluctant obligation to point out that (previous to their current scheme) the Hagoromo have served a useful role in Leaf society, do positively contribute to social stability (important during things like war and recent national tragedies), and have been (until recently) a net plus for Leaf. Their recent radicalization, paired with their newfound abuse of power, have made the Hagoromo (as they currently are) untenable. However, they still serve as useful role and --provided they recant their dual statements and apologize to Keiko (the apology can happen behind closed doors for all I care, I just want it to happen).
 
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Inferno Vulpix said:
Goals
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RandomOTP said:
Goals
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Both of these are very good analyses that I agree with, especially the emphasis on making sure this makes the Goketsu appear strong (and sane) to the rest of the village. I tend to lean towards having 2 and 3 with equal priority in RandomOTP's list of ways for this to go - I don't see the need for utter humiliation from a more objective viewpoint, although I'm not against it in principle.
 
The Hag Clan serves an important function (religious leaders, promotes unity and stability) in Leaf society. It's a social niche that needs to be filled, and if not for the Hag, someone else would've risen to fill the role. And a transition from one clan filling this niche to a different clan doing it would be difficult, causing various amounts of chaos and unrest --since the Hag have done the job for so long, if nothing else. People believe that the Hagoromo are the pillars of tradition and their religious leaders. Like Yuno pointed out, they believe it, and they can point to a line ancestors who believed it (ancestral ties are culturally important in the EN).

I'd like to be... charitable and assume that the Hag Clan did a lot of good during the sinkhole tragedy (even if it was just the minimum "keep people from rioting/looting," though I admit that the ANBU might've also had a secret role in that). We know that, radicalization aside, there's a nontrivial amount of Hagoromo who struggle to balance their faith with their more "modern" Leaf-raised sensibilities, much in the same way that many modern Catholic priests struggle with the "traditional" doctrine versus "modern" morality. Keeping in line with this metaphor, could we kick out Pope Benedict (Hag's current asshole leader) and install a Pope Francis (not perfect, but more tolerant beliefs, falling more in-line with modern moralities).

Does anyone (@eaglejarl, @Velorien, @OliWhail) recall what the process for kicking out a Clan Head and installing a different one is? I know that it's said that a clan and the wider Village has a voice in who becomes Clan Head. It might be a way to humiliate the Hagoromo while also making change. Since the Hag have proven their willingness to use their power, and the other clans have to be freaking out, we could use that to force a change in their leadership while also forcing them to recant their declarations.

GlassOlive said:
Both of these are very good analyses that I agree with, especially the emphasis on making sure this makes the Goketsu appear strong (and sane) to the rest of the village. I tend to lean towards having 2 and 3 with equal priority in RandomOTP's list of ways for this to go - I don't see the need for utter humiliation from a more objective viewpoint, although I'm not against it in principle.
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(Minor quibble: The list of possible endstates was a direct quote from EJ over on the discord.)
 
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Reminder that the Mist-nin is going to be being watched like a hawk 24/7, the Hokage has literal mind-readers, and the Goeketsu are inevitably going to be the first suspects in any information leaks or interclan strife.
 
Honestly didn't expect that reaction to my comment. Then again I didn't expect the whole 'genocide is OK as long as it's for the long term payoff' angle either. I didn't mean it as an insult, I just figured voters thought this would be more fun. They're not real people, you can do what you want.

1.

A scorched earth policy isn't just harmful to 'the bad guys', it tears down the very fabric of civilization, the trust people have in their ability to negotiate in good faith. The Gōketsu will to destroy the livelihoods of many, over a political slight that came from a bad-faith proposal, without even spending a moment on whether perhaps there was an amicable or legal way to resolve this. It is not enough to merely act like a tyrant only to harm the bad guys; you need to not act like a tyrant ever, to draw a line that says some forms of escalation are fundamentally improper. I do not hit burgers out of people's hands, as much as factory farmed meat is ethically unjustifiable. I do not arson Catholic churches, as wrong as their teachings are. I do not brandish a knife in front of homeopathists, though I am convinced their pseudoscience hurts people. I do not wish people to deny Trump his elected power, even if he is a horrible person, and even if he lost the popular vote. Good guys do not obsess about how they can maximize harm to prove a point, despite the chaos it inflicts on the guilty, and the damage it does to the progress of civilization as a whole.

2.

Bad people are still people. I'm tempted to just throw in Daryl Davis quotes here, "Respect is the key. Sitting down and talking, not necessarily agreeing, but respecting each other to air their points of view; because of that respect, and my willingness to listen, and his willingness to listen to me, he ended up leaving the Klan, and there is his robe right there." But really, that's too strong a comparison. You're talking about drugging people and "accidents" and Yakuza and mass destruction of goods and destroying a longstanding clan and somehow even harnessing Orochimaru to make things even worse though thank Sage that last part doesn't seem to have come from the plan because the guy literally kidnaps and tortures people.
 
Veedrac said:
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Wow. This makes so many unsubstantiated claims of hypocrisy, amorality, and downright malevolence along with an entirely naive mindset that we are dealing with people that actually want things to be good if not get better that I'm honestly impressed. Even at my absolute most cynical, I did not seriously entertain the thought that we were doing this to get our jollies off or to spitefully hurt someone for not existing with the right thoughts. I did not seriously think we were going to launch straight into a campaign designed to torture and kill every last Hagoromo for a 'political slight' as you called it. We always talk of doing comically bad things to people because this a fucking death world populated by people of the wildbow variety. People that honestly want to push the world to its violent bloody death for whatever reason or simply don't care to stop it. Of course we joke about stabbing these people in the face. Of course we use underhanded strategies to remove them from our board of play because newsflash this village is an awful place and still one of the best on the planet. Reasonability and change for the better is directly opposed by everyone with power so that leaves us with doing nothing or going underhanded and trying to minimize damage. Your insinuations that we are acting like whining immature children hitting the thing we don't like for the crime of existing is quite frankly a massive insult and I demand your apology for putting that where anyone would read it.
 
I'm demanding an apology for the outright slander you are typing into the thread onto everyone here. I myself am insulted every day and could not care less about someone trying to degrade my self-worth with insults at this point so don't try to spin this as me taking this as a personal attack on myself where none was meant. I am treating you with the respect I give everyone who doesn't have the power to break my arm at any given point.
 
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Veedrac said:
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You don't read through the thread very much, do you? Calling the playerbase bloodthirsty, indiscriminate, and foolishly shortsighted? Look two posts above yours, you'll find someone offering a possible bloodless solution. Before that? Lively conversation about what the playerbase is willing to compromise on, if it means this is ended peacefully. On the discord? A near-continuous back and forth on what our options are, and the morality of each one --with players coming up with yet more options so that we don't become too focused on just what was suggested in the story's narrative.

Veedrac said:
@Unaligned Player

You are not the Gōketsu. My differences of opinion are not personal attacks on you.

OTOH, I am Veedrac. I do not appreciate the tone. Act with respect.
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I feel as though simply waving away his offense by saying "You are not the Goketsu" is rather facile. The Goketsu are led by the player-insert character. Through this character, the playerbase has a vast amount of influence on the growth and development of the remaining Goketsu characters. Furthermore, the most of the remaining Goketsu characters have been with the player-insert character since the beginning of this quest --allowing for a huge amount of time for that influence take place, and its impact seen. So the lines between "player" and "player-character(s)" are far more blurry than they appear --especially in this case, where the playerbase's narrative influence extends beyond just the player-insert character.

Furthermore, saying you don't appreciate a "tone," followed by a demand for another to "act with respect" implies threat. This is especially so when conveyed through short, simple sentences which conveys a "clipped" tone when read. If that wasn't your intent, then use longer sentences to properly convey your message --that way, you have more control of the "tone" of your message. If it was a threat, then I would ask that you not imply threats over the internet, especially after saying that you'd rather not be treated with disrespect.
 
@Veedrac

I somewhat agree with the notion that the Goketsu and the players are different entities, though they can never be completely seperated either. I consider the Goketsu a more idealized version of what I would want to do with the world if I had the power and influence to act on it. Even within the crapsack world they have to live in, they have already started to become a force for good.

(But that's just me, there are people who might want to get something else out of the game.)

And for my interpretation, that doesn't mesh with the aggressive nature on how to treat the Hagoromo. They need to be taken down a peg, that's for sure, but the scorched earth policy or not even attempting a diplomatic resolution at the very least doesn't sit right with me.

Objectively, the Hagoromo are no more villainous than, say, the Yakuza that people are perfectly willing to talk to. Because those are criminals who beat or kill civilians, extort them for money and contribute to the misery in the world. They really, really are not the good guys here and if they had any power of ninja things would look even worse.

But subjectively, there is one key difference: I doubt many of the people participating in this quest actually ran into the Yakuza equivalent in real life so it's easier to seperate fiction from reality.

On the other hand, this is clearly not true for homophobia, especially -- especially considering the forum we are are on. So there are clearly some real life aspects influencing the Hagoromo voting cycle, and understandable ones at that.

I have never had to deal with these things in real life myself so I find myself in a dilemma where I don't know what to do in the voting cycle. I'd like a different resolution of the Hagoromo issue but then I am not the one that has suffered from what they represent. And I generally lack the eloquence to be sure that I don't look like someone who condones their actions - and by extension homophobia IRL - because I disagree with how the fictional Goketsu should deal with a very non-fictional problem.

So my decision was to stay out of this until it's done and over with in the story and we can move on to less sensitive issues. I do hope that the people who have suffered from the issue will take some satisfaction from what will happen to the Hagoromo if all goes well (and I mean that genuinely) and that it won't have too many bad consequences on how the Goketsu will be seen by the other clans in Leaf for choosing aggression over diplomacy as their first instinct.

Or well, there is something that could get me to vote:

Noumero said:
I will exclusively vote for your plan this cycle and give you two exclusive future votes if you implement @Tua's suggestion and get the plan passed.
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I will offer you the same thing, @MMKII. Injecting some levity could be nice.

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RandomOTP said:
On the discord? A near-continuous back and forth on what our options are, and the morality of each one --with players coming up with yet more options so that we don't become too focused on just what was suggested in the story's narrative.
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Do keep in mind that not everyone is on Discord and can only see the end result of what is posted here.
 
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While i agree that certain parties are having minor extended meltdowns over the issue I raise an eyebrow at the implication that we are not attempting to mitigate the collateral damage from destroying the Hagoromo's tops @Tua.
 
RandomOTP said:
You don't read through the thread very much, do you? Calling the playerbase bloodthirsty, indiscriminate, and foolishly shortsighted? Look two posts above yours, you'll find someone offering a possible bloodless solution. Before that? Lively conversation about what the playerbase is willing to compromise on, if it means this is ended peacefully. On the discord? A near-continuous back and forth on what our options are, and the morality of each one --with players coming up with yet more options so that we don't become too focused on just what was suggested in the story's narrative.
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I never said this wouldn't work, I only said this was bad for civilization.
But no, I don't read the thread much.
I feel as though simply waving away his offense by saying "You are not the Goketsu" is rather facile. The Goketsu are led by the player-insert character.
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I think you are missing my point. What you chose to enact in fiction is still fiction. Even when I let myself get wound up with the pangolin genocide stuff, I was still aware that it was fiction. The players weren't actually killing people. The real-world moral implications are distinct.
Furthermore, saying you don't appreciate a "tone," followed by a demand for another to "act with respect" implies threat. This is especially so when conveyed through short, simple sentences which conveys a "clipped" tone when read. If that wasn't your intent, then use longer sentences to properly convey your message --that way, you have more control of the "tone" of your message. If it was a threat, then I would ask that you not imply threats over the internet, especially after saying that you'd rather not be treated with disrespect.
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The comment was meant to be taken literally. I certainly meant no threat, except perhaps the threat of being ignored or reported. (Full disclosure, I've done the former, not the latter.)
 
Unaligned Player said:
While i agree that certain parties are having minor extended meltdowns over the issue I raise an eyebrow at the implication that we are not attempting to mitigate the collateral damage from destroying the Hagoromo's tops @Tua.
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I acknowledge that the plan to destroy the Hagoromo has been softened somewhat from "putting them all unconditionally on the street" to adding some form of mitigations, but I primarily critizised the fact that we didn't even try diplomacy. Their unchanging culpability was instantly assumed and the fact that the Hyuuga are the source of the information was not looked into enough.

If, after all this, the Hagoromo still refuse to back down, sure go to town and minimize the collateral to the non-guilty parties (preferably with an option to let them surrender).

But that's all I want to say on the issue since I made my stance on why I don't feel comfortable pushing too much against it clear in the previous post.
 
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Tua said:
But subjectively, there is one key difference: I doubt many of the people participating in this quest actually ran into the Yakuza equivalent in real life so it's easier to seperate fiction from reality.

On the other hand, this is clearly not true for homophobia, especially -- especially considering the forum we are are on. So there are clearly some real life aspects influencing the Hagoromo voting cycle, and understandable ones at that.

I have never had to deal with these things in real life myself so I find myself in a dilemma where I don't know what to do in the voting cycle. I'd like a different resolution of the Hagoromo issue but then I am not the one that has suffered from what they represent. And I generally lack the eloquence to be sure that I don't look like someone who condones their actions - and by extension homophobia IRL - because I disagree with how the fictional Goketsu should deal with a very non-fictional problem.

So my decision was to stay out of this until it's done and over with in the story and we can move on to less sensitive issues. I do hope that the people who have suffered from the issue will take some satisfaction from what will happen to the Hagoromo if all goes well (and I mean that genuinely) and that it won't have too many bad consequences on how the Goketsu will be seen by the other clans in Leaf for choosing aggression over diplomacy as their first instinct.
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I would just like to say that this is very well put. This arc has not been the easiest for me to engage in even though I feel it is very important for my voice to be heard loudly during it. Thank you for your generosity
 
Veedrac said:
I never said this wouldn't work, I only said this was bad for civilization.
But no, I don't read the thread much.
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As I said previously, there was lively discussion about how to avoid turning this into a complete bloodbath on the same page as your post, not even two posts above your original post. I can understand not being up to date on the discord discussions --after all, I, myself, only joined mere days ago. I could even understand it if the aforementioned discussion had been 2+ pages prior to the page your post was on, but the discussion was literally on the same page, literally inches away from your own post.

Thus, your posts read as blatantly and offensively false.
 
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Personally, as someone who grew up in Arkansas in the deep south, having the ability to tell homophobic jackasses off with relatively little drawback that I care about will be extremely cathartic.
 
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