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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Kiba said:
There's a shitton of momentum behind the winning plan, but the author is not online to make update and not everyone's goign to revote. Would you willing to consider my version for the 'winning plan'?
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@Kiba, But your plans cover different stuff. For example, your reduced plan doesn't talk about our interest in the mysteries of chakra and the world. Should probably include that

edit: Nvm, apparently you do talk about chakra. My bad. And asking about mysteries about the world is probably too general to mean anything either.
 
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ting said:
What does "back and forth mean" here? Are we retracting our offer of adoption?
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ting said:
What does "intellectually efficient" mean? I like how you say "lack the experience" here though, it demonstrates how our current shortcomings are a temporary thing.
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Both of these are a way to apologize for having to play catch up, especially when we started off on the wrong foot (sentimentality). It's an acknowledgement that our default "appeal to emotion that works on most people" was the wrong move, and we needed a moment to realize that we can talk to Orochimaru like a sane person.

(Where "sane person" exists to imply that our current mindset is more 'natural' or core to our identity than the appeal to emotion mentality.)

roobee said:
To all the planmakers offering apprenticeship. We already offered that when we said we'd help with research. Perhaps reword it to explain you are adding on to the benefits you had earlier listed to being an apprentice.
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Part of this is to show further enthusiasm and goal alignment, it's reinforcement to our earlier words, not retraction.

ting said:
Didn't Orochimaru leave the village himself? In what way are we claiming that Leaf rejected him? What do we know about what went down and, if nothing, this is just a shot in the dark at us trying to appeal to his pride...
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I believe so, it's heavily implied he went missing-nin anyway, but Leaf rejected him by making that move neccesary. Whether he was actually pushed out or just left, it was because Leaf didn't accept him, his goals, or his methods.

ting said:
What are "the existing tactics for dealing with killing intent/intimidation" from an S-Ranker? As far as I can remember our only successful tactic thus far has been mouthing off, pissing ourselves, concussing ourselves, and then promptly passing out :)
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eaglejarl said:
"existing tactics" meaning the advice you got from Hana and Jiraiya, or something else?
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Both of you have it right, barring the 'mouthing off' part. I'd rather piss ourselves and get concussed than agree to something Orochimaru forces on us. He's one to appreciate mental strength as much (if not more than) physical.

Also, I'd argue that the mouthing off was a way to achieve our specific goal w/ Zabuza, not a tactic that's general to dealing with powerful ninja emotional manipulation.

faflec said:
OROCHIMARU: There are few people similar to me in power and fewer still similar to me in intellect.
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Sure, but even then we establish ourselves as a member of the same intellectual reference class, albeit a relatively unpolished one.

eaglejarl said:
Also, missing a word. :p Must be "...the hobby." @Kiba got it right in his version.
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Thanks, fixed.
 
Jello_Raptor said:
On second thought, those changes are important enough to warrant a new plan. Plus I want to toss stuff about giving Oro jutsu.

[X] Action Plan : You are talking with a rationalist, act like it.
  • Take a second to calibrate mentally.
    • The house isn't important, it's just stuff.
    • Your pride and fear aren't important and cloud your judgement. Crush them.
    • The people are very important.
      • Those in the clan, working with the clan, as well as those that Orochimaru might be... working with in the future.
    • The knowledge and the power Orochimaru brings is also important.
      • He is likely the only person both able and willing to help with Biosealing, bloodline research, the intricacies of life and death and a way to fix the latter, you name it.
    • Also holy shit Kagome or Mari are going to get killed if they fight Oro.

  • Apologize for the back and forth: His sudden arrival threw us off balance.
    • We've neglected to properly simulate the other clanmates' reactions and personality clashes in the future.
    • Please forgive any idiocy on our part, we lack the experience to be intellectually efficient.
      • We are working on it though.

  • Burning questions, if he would like to take a moment to satisfy someone's curiosity:
    • Ask after his long term plans.
      • We want to minimize conflicts and maximize our mutual gains, or at least not get in his way.
    • Why did you return?
      • When the war starts, you'll have to fight.
      • Leaf rejected you before and may well do so again after the war.
      • What is going to be different, this time?
    • Akatsuki, what was their plan? Who was their leader with the resurrection technique?
    • You sent Jiraiya a very-well designed board game. Are you a fan of the hobby?

  • As a tactic for dealing with intelligent and powerful agents, Hazou has pre-committed to not make binding agreements until he gets time to privately ruminate and consult with trusted external parties.
    • Steel ourselves against intimidation/KI threats.

  • That said we have some ideas for Orochimaru to consider:
    • Hazou would like to become your apprentice.
      • BioSealing? Bloodline research? Necromancy? The true nature of chakra and the world? Sign us up.
      • We'd prefer not to be involved in any of the more... invasive research experiments. We'd vastly prefer to assist him in modifying the methodology of these experiments to reach a consensus, if possible. We have resources...
    • The Goketsu can help you rebrand, we're good at that.
      • The Goketsu have a good reputation with many in Leaf.
      • Oro will need to curtail actions that cause significant suffering or death in beings with human-like intelligences.
      • Past that, he can focus on his goals and let us make him a 'Leaf's Hero'.
    • What do you get if you apply the 'Veil of Ignorance' and 'I commit to tit-for-tat with agents sufficiently similar to myself' to your terminal values? (Tweaked to deal with a world more complex than a pure iterated prisoner's dilemma.)
      • Hazou has ended up with a wide interpretation of 'sufficiently similar' in his resulting instrumental values.
      • Note: This is an idea for Orochimaru to consider, not a question we are asking him.

  • As an immediate show of good faith:
    • Clan Gouketsu will remove itself, its adherents, and its belongings off the compound over the next 24 hours,
    • Give him the package Jiraiya left for him.

So, like usual I've got a bunch of goals with this plan. And how I try to achieve those goals is threaded through the plan in non-obvious ways, so I'll explain it here:
  • Understand Oro's goals:
    • Simple enough, for the most part we just ask him.
  • See if Oro trustworthy:
    • This is a bit subtler, there's a bunch of places where Oro has to signal explicitly if he wants to act in bad faith.
    • I've pulled a few of those opportunities (like keeping our belongings) into this conversation, and in such a way that Oro's better off signaling with words rather than murder or grievous bodily injury.
  • Make an initial case for the value of the Goketsu to Orochimaru:
    • Again, simple enough, we just make the arguments out loud.
    • There's also an element of speaking in Orochimaru's language, as a way of signaling that we're people he can work with, rather than work around.
  • Make Orochimaru like us:
    • We keep on making the mistake of talking to neurodivergent people like they're neurotypical. (Shikaku, Keiko, Shikamaru, and Ami all come to mind.)
    • If we can speak in Orochimaru's language, that's less explicit translating he has to do and less effort he must make to be around us. I want us to actually code-switch when talking to him.
    • Also, we can give him a few immediate concessions that he probably wants.
    • Lastly, subtle flattery. We reinforce his own view of his superiority, without making it clear that we're doing so.
      • An important part of this is framing us as very similar to Oro, while acknowledging our own inferiority/lack of experience.
    • This also means giving Orochimaru information about how we think, that he can use to understand us better.
      • Without giving him anything particularly dangerous.
      • A lot of this is encoded in the subtext, so Orochimaru has to work to get it, making that knowledge more personally meaningful and satisfying. Feelings that he'll start to associate with us if we can keep on drip feeding him.
  • Get an initial read on Orochimaru's socials:
    • Basically, see whether he notices how we flatter him, and how he reacts to our code-switching.'
    • There's also the idea about values, which is a weak memetic payload. If he reacts to that, it'll tell us a lot.
  • Keep from pinning the Goketsu in a corner:
    • Hence not making any binding agreements.
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Incorporated many of the fat trimming edits.
 
Jello_Raptor said:
On second thought, those changes are important enough to warrant a new plan. Plus I want to toss stuff about giving Oro jutsu.

[X] Action Plan : You are talking with a rationalist, act like it.

Word Count: 492
  • Take a second to calibrate mentally.
    • The house isn't important, it's just stuff.
    • Your pride and fear aren't important and cloud your judgement. Crush them.
    • The people are very important.
      • Those in the clan, working with us, as well as those that Orochimaru might... work with in the future.
    • The knowledge and the power Orochimaru brings is also important.
      • He is likely the only person both able and willing to help with Biosealing, bloodline research, the intricacies of life, and solving death.
    • Also holy shit Kagome or Mari are going to get killed if they fight Oro.

  • Apologize for the back and forth: His sudden arrival threw us off balance.
    • We've neglected to properly simulate the other clanmates' reactions and personality clashes in the future.
    • Please forgive any idiocy on our part, we lack the experience to be intellectually efficient.
      • We are working on it though.

  • Burning questions, if he would like to take a moment to satisfy someone's curiosity:
    • Ask after his long term plans.
      • We want to minimize conflicts and maximize our mutual gains, or at least not get in his way.
    • Why did you return?
      • When the war starts, you'll have to fight.
      • Leaf rejected you before and may well do so again after the war.
      • What is going to be different, this time?
    • Akatsuki, what was their plan? Who was their leader with the resurrection technique?
    • You sent Jiraiya a very-well designed board game. Are you a fan of the hobby?

  • As a tactic for dealing with intelligent and powerful agents, Hazou has pre-committed to not make binding agreements until he gets time to privately ruminate and consult with trusted external parties.
    • Steel ourselves against intimidation/KI threats.

  • That said we have some ideas for Orochimaru to consider:
    • Hazou would like to become your apprentice.
      • BioSealing? Bloodline research? Necromancy? The true nature of chakra and the world? Sign us up.
      • We'd prefer not to be involved in any of the more... invasive research experiments. We'd rather assist him in modifying the methodology of these experiments. We have resources...
    • The Goketsu can help you rebrand, we're good at that.
      • The Goketsu have a good reputation with many in Leaf.
      • Oro will need to curtail actions that cause significant suffering or death in beings with human-like intelligences.
      • Past that, he can focus on his goals and let us make him 'Leaf's Hero'.
    • What do you get if you apply the 'Veil of Ignorance' and 'I commit to tit-for-tat with sufficiently similar agents' to your terminal values? (Tweaked to preserve the spirit question in a complex world.)
      • Hazou has ended up with a wide interpretation of 'sufficiently similar' in his resulting instrumental values.
      • Note: This is an idea for Orochimaru to consider, not a question we are asking him.

  • As an immediate show of good faith:
    • Clan Gouketsu will remove itself, its adherents, and its belongings off the compound over the next 24 hours,
    • Give him the package Jiraiya left for him.

So, like usual I've got a bunch of goals with this plan. And how I try to achieve those goals is threaded through the plan in non-obvious ways, so I'll explain it here:
  • Understand Oro's goals:
    • Simple enough, for the most part we just ask him.
  • See if Oro trustworthy:
    • This is a bit subtler, there's a bunch of places where Oro has to signal explicitly if he wants to act in bad faith.
    • I've pulled a few of those opportunities (like keeping our belongings) into this conversation, and in such a way that Oro's better off signaling with words rather than murder or grievous bodily injury.
  • Make an initial case for the value of the Goketsu to Orochimaru:
    • Again, simple enough, we just make the arguments out loud.
    • There's also an element of speaking in Orochimaru's language, as a way of signaling that we're people he can work with, rather than work around.
  • Make Orochimaru like us:
    • We keep on making the mistake of talking to neurodivergent people like they're neurotypical. (Shikaku, Keiko, Shikamaru, and Ami all come to mind.)
    • If we can speak in Orochimaru's language, that's less explicit translating he has to do and less effort he must make to be around us. I want us to actually code-switch when talking to him.
    • Also, we can give him a few immediate concessions that he probably wants.
    • Lastly, subtle flattery. We reinforce his own view of his superiority, without making it clear that we're doing so.
      • An important part of this is framing us as very similar to Oro, while acknowledging our own inferiority/lack of experience.
    • This also means giving Orochimaru information about how we think, that he can use to understand us better.
      • Without giving him anything particularly dangerous.
      • A lot of this is encoded in the subtext, so Orochimaru has to work to get it, making that knowledge more personally meaningful and satisfying. Feelings that he'll start to associate with us if we can keep on drip feeding him.
  • Get an initial read on Orochimaru's socials:
    • Basically, see whether he notices how we flatter him, and how he reacts to our code-switching.'
    • There's also the idea about values, which is a weak memetic payload. If he reacts to that, it'll tell us a lot.
  • Keep from pinning the Goketsu in a corner:
    • Hence not making any binding agreements.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Got it to 492 words.
 
458 words, still working on it. There's a lot of extra stuff you have (like the veil of ignorance thing) that I'm not removing, but did alter.
  • Take a second to calibrate mentally.
    • The house isn't important, it's just stuff.
    • Your pride and fear aren't important and cloud your judgement. Crush them.
    • The people are very important.
      • Those in the clan, working with the clan, and those that Orochimaru'll be... working with.
    • Orochimaru's knowledge/power is alsoimportant.
      • He's likely the only person able and willing to help with Biosealing, bloodline research, immortality, etc.
    • Also holy shit Kagome or Mari are fucked if they fight Orochimaru.


  • Apologize for the back and forth: His sudden arrival threw us off balance.
    • We haven't sufficiently simulated our clanmates' potential reactions and personality clashes.
    • Please forgive any idiocy on our part, we lack the experience to be intellectually efficient. But we are learning.


  • Burning questions, if he would like to take a moment to satisfy someone's curiosity:
    • Ask after his long term plans.
      • We want to minimize conflicts and maximize our mutual gains, or at least not get in his way.
    • Why did you return?
      • When the war starts, you'll have to fight.
      • Leaf rejected you before and may well do so again after the war.
      • What make this time different?
    • What was Akatsuki's plan? Who was their leader with the resurrection technique?
    • You sent Jiraiya a very-well designed board game. Are you a fan of the hobby?


  • When dealing with more intelligent/powerful agents, Hazou's pre-committed to not make binding agreements until he gets time to privately ruminate and consult with the clan.
    • Steel ourselves against intimidation/KI threats.


  • That said we have some ideas for Orochimaru to consider:
    • Hazou would like to become your apprentice.
      • BioSealing? Bloodline research? Necromancy? The true nature of chakra and the world? Sign us up.
      • We'd prefer to disinvolve ourselves from the more... invasive research experiments, but would want to help modify their methodology to reach a consensus, if possible. We have resources...
    • The Goketsu can help you rebrand, we're good at that.
      • The Goketsu have a good reputation with many in Leaf.
      • We have a good reputation with many in Leaf. Orochimaru would need to curtail actions that cause suffering/death of sapient beings.
      • Past that, he can focus on his goals and let us make him 'Leaf's hero'.
    • What happens if you apply 'Veil of Ignorance' and 'Committing to tit-for-tatwith sufficiently-similar agents' to your terminal values? (Tweaked to deal with a world more complex than a pure iterated prisoner's dilemma.)
      • Hazou's ended up with a wide interpretation of 'sufficiently similar' in his resulting instrumental values.
      • Note: This is an idea for Orochimaru to consider, not a question we are asking him.


  • As a show of good faith:
    • Clan Gouketsu and their followers will remove themselves from the estate within 24 hours.
    • Give him the package Jiraiya left for him.

Edit: Well this is awkward.
 
faflec said:
458 words, still working on it. There's a lot of extra stuff you have (like the veil of ignorance thing) that I'm not removing, but did alter.
  • Take a second to calibrate mentally.
    • The house isn't important, it's just stuff.
    • Your pride and fear aren't important and cloud your judgement. Crush them.
    • The people are very important.
      • Those in the clan, working with the clan, and those that Orochimaru'll be... working with.
    • Orochimaru's knowledge/power is alsoimportant.
      • He's likely the only person able and willing to help with Biosealing, bloodline research, immortality, etc.
    • Also holy shit Kagome or Mari are fucked if they fight Orochimaru.


  • Apologize for the back and forth: His sudden arrival threw us off balance.
    • We haven't sufficiently simulated our clanmates' potential reactions and personality clashes.
    • Please forgive any idiocy on our part, we lack the experience to be intellectually efficient. But we are learning.


  • Burning questions, if he would like to take a moment to satisfy someone's curiosity:
    • Ask after his long term plans.
      • We want to minimize conflicts and maximize our mutual gains, or at least not get in his way.
    • Why did you return?
      • When the war starts, you'll have to fight.
      • Leaf rejected you before and may well do so again after the war.
      • What make this time different?
    • What was Akatsuki's plan? Who was their leader with the resurrection technique?
    • You sent Jiraiya a very-well designed board game. Are you a fan of the hobby?


  • When dealing with more intelligent/powerful agents, Hazou's pre-committed to not make binding agreements until he gets time to privately ruminate and consult with the clan.
    • Steel ourselves against intimidation/KI threats.


  • That said we have some ideas for Orochimaru to consider:
    • Hazou would like to become your apprentice.
      • BioSealing? Bloodline research? Necromancy? The true nature of chakra and the world? Sign us up.
      • We'd prefer to disinvolve ourselves from the more... invasive research experiments, but would want to help modify their methodology to reach a consensus, if possible. We have resources...
    • The Goketsu can help you rebrand, we're good at that.
      • The Goketsu have a good reputation with many in Leaf.
      • We have a good reputation with many in Leaf. Orochimaru would need to curtail actions that cause suffering/death of sapient beings.
      • Past that, he can focus on his goals and let us make him 'Leaf's hero'.
    • What happens if you apply 'Veil of Ignorance' and 'Committing to tit-for-tatwith sufficiently-similar agents' to your terminal values? (Tweaked to deal with a world more complex than a pure iterated prisoner's dilemma.)
      • Hazou's ended up with a wide interpretation of 'sufficiently similar' in his resulting instrumental values.
      • Note: This is an idea for Orochimaru to consider, not a question we are asking him.


  • As a show of good faith:
    • Clan Gouketsu and their followers will remove themselves from the estate within 24 hours.
    • Give him the package Jiraiya left for him.

Edit: Well this is awkward.
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:ninja:
 
[X] Action Plan : You are talking with a rationalist, act like it.
[X] Action Plan : You are talking with a rationalist, act like it. (FAT TRIM)
 
roobee said:
Is the veil of ignorance the only difference between Kiba and Jello's plans?
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That and the +100-or-so words, which equates to -1XP. There's probably a way to shrink Jello's plan to 399 words or less, I think, but I'm not sure if it's possible.

Don't take my word for it, there are probably some other differences I can't recall off the top of my head.
 
I find the XP maluses acceptable. We're talking to Orochimaru afterall.
 
[X] Action Plan : You are talking with a rationalist, act like it.

It sounds like @Jello_Raptor has a well-developed approach in mind, and I'm not willing to throw out parts of it for one measly XP, given the current stakes.
 
[X] Action Plan : You are talking with a rationalist, act like it. (FAT TRIM)

Probably not unvoting the other plan unless I see a more compelling argument than XP, but this seems reasonable too.
 
Jello_Raptor said:
Both of these are a way to apologize for having to play catch up, especially when we started off on the wrong foot (sentimentality). It's an acknowledgement that our default "appeal to emotion that works on most people" was the wrong move, and we needed a moment to realize that we can talk to Orochimaru like a sane person.

(Where "sane person" exists to imply that our current mindset is more 'natural' or core to our identity than the appeal to emotion mentality.)



Part of this is to show further enthusiasm and goal alignment, it's reinforcement to our earlier words, not retraction.
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Makes sense (with your explanation); could you maybe change it to "back and forth with respect to tone" to make that clearer?

Since it seems that this section doesn't pertain to the adoption details, I assume the part of the plan that addresses that is the "no binding agreements" bit? If so, it might make sense to move that to the top, since that's the conversation we're currently having when the update ended. It also makes it more obvious that "sorry for the back and forth" isn't the response to his most recent statement about adoption/taking over the clan.

Jello_Raptor said:
Both of you have it right, barring the 'mouthing off' part. I'd rather piss ourselves and get concussed than agree to something Orochimaru forces on us. He's one to appreciate mental strength as much (if not more than) physical.

Also, I'd argue that the mouthing off was a way to achieve our specific goal w/ Zabuza, not a tactic that's general to dealing with powerful ninja emotional manipulation.
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I was mostly kidding, I think Hazou played the Zabuza situation essentially perfectly! but I did want to highlight that we don't really have any techniques for this. I see you've changed is to "steel yourself against..." Which I agree is the best we can do.


[X] Action Plan : You are talking with a rationalist, act like it.
 
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