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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Velorien said:
Yes. Buying a person's own hours is just formalising an ordinary exchange of favours. "Hey, do you want this stuff in exchange for spending X time helping me with Y?"
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Upon emerging from a small, dark, and dusty corner of my mind an imaginary me went "Ah hah! We should start an insurance industry based on these! The profits would be enormous! Premiums! Mwahahaha!" before it was quickly strangled by a handful of other imaginary MMKII's and taken away.
 
Roomba said:
It's a bit difficult to get a good read on Oro from these last two updates. If he were our typical experienced and powerful ninja with good socials, I'd read this whole sequence of events as him angling to take over our clan, and using any means available to him to give himself advantages in the ensuing negotiation. That's how I'd read all of his implied threats and accusations of misconduct on our part.

However, Ami's behaviour gives me some pause. She acted as if she thought Oro was playing things completely straight, which is both possible and frightening.

In any case, I really want to ask him why he returned to Konoha in the first place. What is the benefit, to him? He has to know he's essentially putting himself in the middle of the upcoming war this way, and I can't think of anything uniquely valuable the village offers him. I do wonder if Jiraiya hadn't made some kind of deal where Oro would offer us protection in return for the pardon. In that case, his behaviour would make some sense - to him, the best way of providing said protection would be to suborn us. Again, though, Ami acted as if she thought he'd actually kill her there and then.

I am still absolutely certain I don't want him as our clan head.
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So, something that always struck me was the characterization of specialization with the 3. Jiraiya and Orochimaru were both great with seals. Orochimaru and Tsunade were really up on medicine. And Jiraiya and Tsunade were solid on socials/seduction (Tsunade's first scene with Mari, Jiraiya being Jiraiya). I also remember an interlude with the trio, Orochimaru being on a date with someone and having no idea how to interact with them.
All this leads to me thinking that Roomba's implications are right, and that Orochimaru is playing at exactly the level he seems to be. Which makes the dissection threats dire indeed. Most "he wouldn't do that, it'd get him kicked out of the village" concerns are just that, concerns, not deal breakers.

We really should find out why he came back. May live longer that way.
 
Halberdier said:
All this leads to me thinking that Roomba's implications are right, and that Orochimaru is playing at exactly the level he seems to be. Which makes the dissection threats dire indeed. Most "he wouldn't do that, it'd get him kicked out of the village" concerns are just that, concerns, not deal breakers.

We really should find out why he came back. May live longer that way.
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If Orochimaru's socials really are crap, that's *great news*. If he actually bought that octocat bullshit, then it's not Tsunade that they should be calling the "Legendary Sucker".

Sign up with him and then "yes master, but-" him into doing whatever you want.
 
I'm fairly certain Oro's socials would still be 25-30 points higher than ours in most useful categories. He probably doesn't have high Rapport or Empathy, but I imagine he has Resolve and Intimidation to spare; with a side dish of Deceit.

Its almost surely a moot point, Orochimaru probably sees incoming Social Combat and says "No thank you, and I precommit to removing your circulatory system by hand if you continue engaging." and the other party shuts the fuck up. If you aren't selling something he wants then he's not buying.
 
Look, this was always going to be the choice with Orochimaru. You want access to his goodies, you accept that you have to knuckle down and basically take his orders. Sure by all means, try to work around him if/when you disagree, but that doesn't change the fundamental relationship.

But let me give some actual helpful advice. What you're looking for here is an escape cord that Hazou can pull if Orochimaru either doesn't come through with the goods or goes so far you can no longer accept it. Orochimaru isn't going to agree to any "I get one vote out of three" bullshit, but he might be amenable to Haozou's desire for an escape clause. That's just well-reasoned rational argument.
 
eaglejarl said:
Orochimaru gave an exaggerated frown, not even pretending that his slit-pupiled eyes weren't dancing with amusement. "What what? You're in my house and I want to go to bed."

"It's our house! We bought it from the Tower!"

"I think you'll find that, as a jōnin of Leaf, I count as a one-person clan. The Tower does not have the right to expropriate clan property unless it can be demonstrated that all registered members of the clan are dead without assigned heirs."

"But...but you were a missing-nin!"

"Yes, but I wasn't dead. And I'm not missing anymore; Jiraiya gave me a full pardon and Hiashi countersigned it not an hour ago. The sale was illegal because the property never belonged to the Tower in the first place."
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This legal argument is ridiculous. Orichimaru is not the first jonin to go missing-nin and have their property confiscated. The legal precedent is already set and nobody is going to rule otherwise because the Hokage not being able to confiscate the property of missing nin would be stupid.

The original confiscation being unlawful may mean that he is entitled to compensation from the Tower. It wouldn't mean he could just steal his stuff back from whomever the Tower sold them to.
 
MrCogmor said:
This legal argument is ridiculous. Orichimaru is not the first jonin to go missing-nin and have their property confiscated. The legal precedent is already set and nobody is going to rule otherwise because the Hokage not being able to confiscate the property of missing nin would be stupid.

The original confiscation being unlawful may mean that he is entitled to compensation from the Tower. It wouldn't mean he could just steal his stuff back from whomever the Tower sold them to.
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The issue isn't that he went missing-nin, it's that he went missing-nin and had that status rescinded.

Before, nobody would give any fucks because the missing-nin would be executed and not have the opportunity to contest the selling of their stuff, so any loopholes/flaws in the official lawbook was just ignored.
 
faflec said:
The issue isn't that he went missing-nin, it's that he went missing-nin and had that status rescinded.

Before, nobody would give any fucks because the missing-nin would be executed and not have the opportunity to contest the selling of their stuff, so any loopholes/flaws in the official lawbook was just ignored.
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Doesn't matter. There will be a precedent that missing nin stuff gets confiscated instead of going to their next of kin or distributed according to their will. The courts won't support an interpretation of the laws that contradicts that for obvious reasons.
 
MrCogmor said:
This legal argument is ridiculous. Orichimaru is not the first jonin to go missing-nin and have their property confiscated. The legal precedent is already set and nobody is going to rule otherwise because the Hokage not being able to confiscate the property of missing nin would be stupid.

The original confiscation being unlawful may mean that he is entitled to compensation from the Tower. It wouldn't mean he could just steal his stuff back from whomever the Tower sold them to.
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And yet....

Straightforwardly bribing Orochimaru wouldn't work. As one of the few guarantees of Leaf's immediate survival, right now Orochimaru could ask for a chakra pony and Hyūga would start sending out capture teams.
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I mean, what does it matter? Hypothetically in some fair and just and neutral court, perhaps it would go the way you say. But Leaf is looking down the barrel of Armageddon and Orochimaru is the Man who can maybe dig them out.

The "original confiscation" may not entitle Orochimaru to "just steal his stuff back". Being Orochimaru entitles him to steal his stuff back.

EDIT: Remember when Tsunade pointed out she could kill Mari and no one would do anything about it?
 
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MMKII said:
There are maybe, maybe two other individuals in this village (Naruto and Tsunade) that would be able to stop him from yoinking whatever top secret research stuff he wants and going "Mine mine mine." as long as he has decent legal pre-text to do so. I'm willing to bet post-pardon and Senior mednin appointment Oro-- given that Hiashi is probably willing to bend himself into political knots to keep the guy happy --there are astonishingly few things he couldn't do now.
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Note that both Tsunade and Naruto are still far from physically healthy.

Oneiros said:
Why are we letting Orochimaru terrify us? Why are we letting him sit and dictate the terms of our life? Sure he is powerful and dangerous but so what? All of our rivals and opponents are. We have faced down Zabuza the greatest hunter in the world. We have negotiated with Tsunade who has a legacy of killing those who irritate her. We where constantly threatened by Jiraiya greatest of the three and yet we where his family. We have traded barbs with the greatest diplomat in the Mizukage. We have looked into the eyes of the bijuu of the Kyuibu and told him we would do whatever is necessary to save our family no matter if he opposed us. We have looked into the out and ripped the secrets of the universe from the void. We are the Seal Smith to the gods. Who is this to think he can waltz in and claim the legacy of both Jiraiya and Uplift. Gōketsu means guts and we need to show them
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Damnit, SV, why is there no 'Inspiring' rating?!

I'm awarding +1 XP for being awesome, and I'm making a note of this. Unless you object, I'm going to use it the next time there is good occasion for Hazō to make a Badass Boast.


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Briefvoice said:
EDIT: Remember when Tsunade pointed out she could kill Mari and no one would do anything about it?
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In fairness, Tsunade is something of a special case in a lot of ways. She's enormously powerful and she's got the hearts and minds of the public, ninja and civilian both, to a truly ridiculous degree.
 
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Briefvoice said:
I mean, what does it matter? Hypothetically in some fair and just and neutral court, perhaps it would go the way you say. But Leaf is looking down the barrel of Armageddon and Orochimaru is the Man who can maybe dig them out.

The "original confiscation" may not entitle Orochimaru to "just steal his stuff back". Being Orochimaru entitles him to steal his stuff back.
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It is important for negotiating compensation from the Tower and getting the support of the other clans to do so. If the Tower is going to take away our clan compound to appease Orichimaru then they have need to pay us for it since as just explained
The Tower does not have the right to expropriate clan property unless it can be demonstrated that all registered members of the clan are dead without assigned heirs."
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MrCogmor said:
It is important for negotiating compensation from the Tower and getting the support of the other clans to do so. If the Tower is going to take away our clan compound to appease Orichimaru then they have need to pay us for it since as just explained
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We'll be getting the money back. That isn't really a concern. Oh, Hiashi will delay it to fuck with us, but we'll get the money back.
 
Byzantine said:
We'll be getting the money back. That isn't really a concern. Oh, Hiashi will delay it to fuck with us, but we'll get the money back.
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The issue isn't whether or not we will get the money back, but what's going to happen to us in the interim.

Side note: I had this weird idle thought about how the schizotech in canon!Naruto was because a Grue/nightmare seal failure ate certain concepts from the EN, but didn't eat the ideas that came from those technological advancements. Probably too much to ask for, but was amusing to think about.
 
eaglejarl said:
Note that both Tsunade and Naruto are still far from physically healthy.
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Ah, right.


Look folks, there's a new sheriff in town, and he's a fan of snakes, possesses questionable moral framework, and is really into immortality.







...Ok close enough
 
Byzantine said:
We'll be getting the money back. That isn't really a concern. Oh, Hiashi will delay it to fuck with us, but we'll get the money back.
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How long do you think Hiashi can keep "forgetting" or "being too busy" to sign before suffering actual problems given that he is Hokage? I'd rather that the time be as short as possible.
 
Do we know or think it is possible to have Gouketsu persist as a named political entity, if we label ourselves as a branch family within the Yasha? Even at the expense of our council vote under the name Gouketsu, it seems like that would be good for branding, and it offers a framework for Uzumaki to be adopted under later. Presumably, then, Kabuto would want to be adopted as Yasha Kabuto, although even he could maintain the name Yakushi if he desired.
 
KaGoGoGadgetMe said:
Presumably, then, Kabuto would want to be adopted as Yasha Kabuto, although even he could maintain the name Yakushi if he desired.
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I don't think Kabuto wants to do anything of the sort.

In retrospect, Kabuto had to have learned some time when we were doing our sealing research mission outside the Village that his master was still alive. And that's why he changed tracks and pretended he wanted to be adopted. Suspiciously, he was busy the day we wanted to finalize things* but was happy to come to game night and not-so-subtly be giddy about waiting for Orochimaru to come back and put us in our place.

That also lends credence to the fact that Orochimaru definitely timed this and that there is a good chance that he was threatening us to see what we'd do. Oh, I still believe he could hurt us with little repercussion if he wanted to but what for? We could be useful to him as allies and he didn't strike me as the irrational type to break his toys for no reason.

*Which probably was a good thing. If we had adopted him and taught him Pangolin jutsu he very likely would have passed that on to Orochimaru - clan secrets or not. If Orochimaru protects him there'd be little we could have done to punish him. Plus now teaching Oro Pangolin jutsu could be part of the bargain we can strike if Keiko is amenable.
 
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Proto-Plan: A Considered Approach

  • Take a moment. Deep breath.
    • You've survived less than friendly meetings with more S ranks than most people have met in their lives.
    • It's obvious in retrospect that Orochimaru would be unwilling to cede his agency to even the most friendly of clan heads -- he left Leaf rather than do that before.
    • There are, however, alternatives to be considered that could leave him the same level of agency while being more tenable to the Goketsu
      • Orochimaru joins as the branch family Yasha -- or whatever term would be appropriate -- of the Goketsu which is contractually outside the Goketsu chain of command. Neither he nor the other members of the Goketsu are required to listen to orders from the other.
      • Orochimaru joins and changes the Goketsu to the Yasha, allowing the Goketsu to exist as a branch family with the same strictures as above
      • Orochimaru makes a pledge, with Tsunade and Naruto as guarantors, against harming the Goketsu or anyone under their protection [this latter stricture is intended to refer to the clanless nin following Mari].
  • Regardless, inform Orochimaru that Jiraiya left a message for him. He'll need to retrieve it in order to deliver it, of course.

Just getting my thoughts out there.
 
roobee said:
Considering Hazo was trying to adopt Kabuto does he know the legal duties and social (specific to adopted clanmembers) expectations of clan members toward their clan heads? And the consequences of breaking them? Besides what we already know of the tax/mission stuff.
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Probably more or less what you would imagine: Unswerving loyalty, obedience, actively working to protect and enhance the power and prestige of the clan, actively avoiding embarrassing them, etc. That's the general outline; we haven't had cause to make up specifics beyond that, but I doubt you'll find any of it too surprising.
 
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