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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Huh, what's with all the distress?

The way I see it, the plan that was voted in achieved exactly what it wanted to achieve. It's just that Orochimaru pointed what should be obvious to everyone... in any partnership, he will be the guiding hand and the one in charge. While it's true the Goketsu have a lot to offer, Orochimaru has infinitely more in terms of knowledge, power, contacts, and (probably) wealth. That he's willing to accept you as subordinates was a sign of great favor.

What other way could it possibly have worked?

EDIT: You want S-class Hazou? This is by far the most likely way to get S-class Hazou. And if Akane doesn't like it and walks... if Mari doesn't like it and walks... in terms of potential power, you've lost so little by comparison.
 
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Extremely-proto-plan that's really just some notes "My house is full of snakes":
  • Oro's allowed us to get ourselves in order for a second negotiation. He's playing ball, even though he wants his things back.
  • 7th path jutsu are valuable to him not because they're individually powerful, but because he is a technique hacker. The 7th path likely has totally unique jutsu traditions.
  • If we're thrown out of the compound - temporarily or otherwise - make a propaganda move out of it and spend time in KEI habitation.
  • Oro deliberately timed it such that his arrival was in the middle of a game night, thereby spreading the news faster. Honestly, hosting these game nights might have been one of the best things Gouketsu has ever done politically - anyone who wants to make a big announcement crashes them with great predictability.
  • We need to negotiate regarding acceptable methods and goals. Naruto is not to be subordinate to Snuncle - who knows what Oro might do if he got his hands on the kyuubi?
  • I would like to point out, however, that Orochimaru puts the fear of god into Mari. The fucking Heartbreaker.
 
Evenstar said:
Does Shikamaru personally owe us any time? This is something worth spending time on.
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Possibly: the dowry for Keiko's marriage involved votes, hours, and misc. intelligence, which may or may not include hours from the Nara Clan Head (which at this time is Shikamaru). Though these things are TBD last I checked, I do recall there was a discussion on it (though without anything finalized).
 
It's a bit difficult to get a good read on Oro from these last two updates. If he were our typical experienced and powerful ninja with good socials, I'd read this whole sequence of events as him angling to take over our clan, and using any means available to him to give himself advantages in the ensuing negotiation. That's how I'd read all of his implied threats and accusations of misconduct on our part.

However, Ami's behaviour gives me some pause. She acted as if she thought Oro was playing things completely straight, which is both possible and frightening.

In any case, I really want to ask him why he returned to Konoha in the first place. What is the benefit, to him? He has to know he's essentially putting himself in the middle of the upcoming war this way, and I can't think of anything uniquely valuable the village offers him. I do wonder if Jiraiya hadn't made some kind of deal where Oro would offer us protection in return for the pardon. In that case, his behaviour would make some sense - to him, the best way of providing said protection would be to suborn us. Again, though, Ami acted as if she thought he'd actually kill her there and then.

I am still absolutely certain I don't want him as our clan head.
 
Noumero said:
Edit: Also, we totally made an attempt at decontaminating it.
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By the way @Velorien, I'd like to bring this to your attention. Does it change anything about Hazou's responses, or can we just call that him being flustered and clarify in the coming update?

Also, I would like to reiterate that I am perfectly content to allow Orochimaru to lead the clan so long as we have his word -- backed by Naruto and Tsunade as guarantors -- that he won't harm us or anyone under our protection.
 
Roomba said:
It's a bit difficult to get a good read on Oro from these last two updates. If he were our typical experienced and powerful ninja with good socials, I'd read this whole sequence of events as him angling to take over our clan, and using any means available to him to give himself advantages in the ensuing negotiation. That's how I'd read all of his implied threats and accusations of misconduct on our part.

However, Ami's behaviour gives me some pause. She acted as if she thought Oro was playing things completely straight, which is both possible and frightening.

In any case, I really want to ask him why he returned to Konoha in the first place. What is the benefit, to him? He has to know he's essentially putting himself in the middle of the upcoming war this way, and I can't think of anything uniquely valuable the village offers him. I do wonder if Jiraiya hadn't made some kind of deal where Oro would offer us protection in return for the pardon. In that case, his behaviour would make some sense - to him, the best way of providing said protection would be to suborn us. Again, though, Ami acted as if she thought he'd actually kill her there and then.

I am still absolutely certain I don't want him as our clan head.
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I think Jiraiya's giving Orochimaru a senior medical research position (citation needed: not sure this is the exact term) also factored into it. S-rank badass or no, losing Leaf's resources had to be an inconvenience to his research.
 
As a counterproposal for those who don't want Orochimaru as clan head, what if we split the clan head position three ways: Orochimaru, Hazou, and Naruto (or Mari if he wants to stay an Uzumaki), with a two-third majority needed for major decisions?
 
Roomba said:
It's a bit difficult to get a good read on Oro from these last two updates. If he were our typical experienced and powerful ninja with good socials, I'd read this whole sequence of events as him angling to take over our clan, and using any means available to him to give himself advantages in the ensuing negotiation. That's how I'd read all of his implied threats and accusations of misconduct on our part.

However, Ami's behaviour gives me some pause. She acted as if she thought Oro was playing things completely straight, which is both possible and frightening.
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Yes, that was my thought process as well. One possibility here, although it feels unlikely, is that they were collaborating (e: having agreed on the performance prior to the party) — that he deliberately brought her so she could play along with his threats, thereby indirectly convincing us they're real. Certainly that was the main outcome of her presence in that conversation, and it would also explain why she had the octocat plushy out in the open...
 
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Roomba said:
What is the benefit, to him? He has to know he's essentially putting himself in the middle of the upcoming war this way, and I can't think of anything uniquely valuable the village offers him.
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There are maybe, maybe two other individuals in this village (Naruto and Tsunade) that would be able to stop him from yoinking whatever top secret research stuff he wants and going "Mine mine mine." as long as he has decent legal pre-text to do so. I'm willing to bet post-pardon and Senior mednin appointment Oro-- given that Hiashi is probably willing to bend himself into political knots to keep the guy happy --there are astonishingly few things he couldn't do now.
 
MadScientist said:
As a counterproposal for those who don't want Orochimaru as clan head, what if we split the clan head position three ways: Orochimaru, Hazou, and Naruto (or Mari if he wants to stay an Uzumaki), with a two-third majority needed for major decisions?
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I don't think Orochimaru would accept this, since it sounds like he'll be constantly overruled by the Mari/Naruto-Hazou bloc. Imagine if we adopted Kabuto and Oro proposed the same split, except with Orochimaru, Kabuto, Hazou as Clan Heads.
 
Why are we letting Orochimaru terrify us? Why are we letting him sit and dictate the terms of our life? Sure he is powerful and dangerous but so what? All of our rivals and opponents are. We have faced down Zabuza the greatest hunter in the world. We have negotiated with Tsunade who has a legacy of killing those who irritate her. We where constantly threatened by Jiraiya greatest of the three and yet we where his family. We have traded barbs with the greatest diplomat in the Mizukage. We have looked into the eyes of the bijuu of the Kyuibu and told him we would do whatever is necessary to save our family no matter if he opposed us. We have looked into the out and ripped the secrets of the universe from the void. We are the Seal Smith to the gods. Who is this to think he can waltz in and claim the legacy of both Jiraiya and Uplift. Gōketsu means guts and we need to show them
 
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faflec said:
Possibly: the dowry for Keiko's marriage involved votes, hours, and misc. intelligence, which may or may not include hours from the Nara Clan Head (which at this time is Shikamaru). Though these things are TBD last I checked, I do recall there was a discussion on it (though without anything finalized).
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Hours were not part of the dowry. It may have been stated at some point that they were, in which case please consider this statement to supersede that one. Hours are an internal Nara currency, which they do not use outside the clan except on an individual personal basis.
Cariyaga said:
By the way @Velorien, I'd like to bring this to your attention. Does it change anything about Hazou's responses, or can we just call that him being flustered and clarify in the coming update?
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He was flustered, but also Orochimaru's ominous behaviour made him doubt whether Noburi's basic once-over was sufficient when dealing with Orochimaru's work. (Also, "decontamination" really isn't a word in your typical Academy-educated ninja's vocabulary.)
 
Noumero said:
I don't think Orochimaru would accept this, since it sounds like he'll be constantly overruled by the Mari/Naruto-Hazou bloc. Imagine if we adopted Kabuto and Oro proposed the same split, except with Orochimaru, Kabuto, Hazou as Clan Heads.
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The difference is that Hazou is largely aligned with Orochimaru's goals (necromancy/immortality, plenty of research, get Jiraiya back), and Naruto is also an S-ranker and kinda called dibs. While it's true that Hazou may sometimes side with Naruto against Oro, I personally think he'll more usually side with Oro against Naruto.
 
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MadScientist said:
The difference is that Hazou is largely aligned with Orochimaru's goals (necromancy/immortality, plenty of research, get Jiraiya back), and Naruto is also an S-ranker and kinda called dibs. While it's true that Hazou may sometimes side with Naruto against Oro, I personally think he'll more usually side with Oro against Naruto.
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But would Orochimaru think that? Hazou might have impressed him with his anti-death sentiments, but I'm not sure it goes that far.
 
Velorien said:
Hours were not part of the dowry. It may have been stated at some point that they were, in which case please consider this statement to supersede that one. Hours are an internal Nara currency, which they do not use outside the clan except on an individual personal basis.
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So....you're saying we can talk to Shikamaru individually and offer to void some of our other favors/votes/etc. for his personal hours? Xor am I interpreting that incorrectly?
 
@Velorien @eaglejarl @OliWhail
Considering Hazo was trying to adopt Kabuto does he know the legal duties and social (specific to adopted clanmembers) expectations of clan members toward their clan heads? And the consequences of breaking them? Besides what we already know of the tax/mission stuff.

Thoughts:
Oro never threatened us publicly. Yet he also never mentioned the basement publicly.
Will Oro kill us for insisting Mari enter negotiations? There seems no practical benefit to doing it, although he might get annoyed. Will Oro kill us for annoying him/wasting his time, even if he thinks we have more value alive?
Ask if Oro wants to be de facto or de jure clan head
Jiraiya asked Tsunade to help us, so if we disappeared he'd have problems. Don't word it as something that we would cause to happen as leverage, but as something that happens regardless of our intentions.
If Oro is clan head we might not have the authority to order Keiko to disclose the pangolin jutsu.
If Oro doesn't promise not harming his clan than we don't benefit from making Oro clan head. Mention if he will make us his lab experiments in both scenarios we have no reason to teach him the pangolin jutsu.
Mention oh that's what decontaminate means. We did in fact decontaminate the cat.
We don't have Nara hours but we can probably pay a Nara to think for us.
Naruto didn't adopt Jiraiya because it would make Naruto Jiraiya's clan head. We might be unable to make Oro a clan head after adopting him. If Oro wants to make an entirely knew clan he'd have to get permission from whoever, which might be difficult. And we might be unable to tell him pangolin jutsu legally.
Give Oro jiraiya's package.
Oro seems actually interested in the pangolin stuff. seems best bargaining chip
If oro says he'll extract info from our brains mention we can quickly committ suicide, and figure out the quickest way so it's not a bluff.
noburi has been apprenticing under kabuto. he, us, and kagome can provide intellectual labor. which works best when not under coercion as he should realize with his relationship with kabuto.
potential attack tactics. ask orochimaru how long he's had his disguise kit
oro called hiashi a boy. he might not care about consequences from the hokage or the tower.
didn't see any opsec precautions on that room
 
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faflec said:
So....you're saying we can talk to Shikamaru individually and offer to void some of our other favors/votes/etc. for his personal hours? Xor am I interpreting that incorrectly?
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Yes. Buying a person's own hours is just formalising an ordinary exchange of favours. "Hey, do you want this stuff in exchange for spending X time helping me with Y?"
 
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