Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
- Location
- Academy City
- Pronouns
- They
Oh no! If we kill all of the Iwa squad, we might not have a war on our hands! You're right, that would be terrible.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Don't get my hopes up!
- Location
- Potato land
I've got that old draft of our strategy for the Akatsuki date ready whenever we need it.
@MMKII I think this an important/potentially-critical point. I have been thinking this is a huge hole(s) for a while, and been arguing, offline, that something weird or important happened in those negotiations. I don't see any obvious reason Nagato would refuse to reanimate any nin from our side at all. And I find it weird or annoying and extremely unlikely that whomever on our side was negotiating didn't think to ask, or demand that, even faced with an end-of-world seal.
I read it as a "this costs a lot", combined with a touch of "my friends first", and a hint of "coincidentally I only have enough chakra for 7 people".
Alternatively, everyone has actually been alive this whole time, but Jiraya convinced everyone to play a giant trick on us to give us agency while he plans Mari's wedding.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
I don't think its that out of the blue: The anti-Akatsuki alliance was basically being led by Tsunade,Hiashi, and Ren at that point. It's entirely plausible FMPOV that these folks would be unable to look passed their preconceived notions and personal biases to try to bridge the gap there.
By the time you get to "Y'know, if you really believe in fixing the world and aren't just spouting a load of crap, you should bring back the other Kage's too, at the very least. If theres no limit, you should bring everyone back." or something of the sort, you have to jump through some logical/framing hoops that I'd argue would probably be highly nontrivial for some of the people involved to make.
@MMKII @apooooop I may be beating a dead horse but wanted to get this out of my system...
Clearly that coincidence (just enough chakra for my 7 team only) may be the actual case; but it is a step too far for me. Not to mention that Nagato can then somehow force those 7 to retire quietly, and stay retired even after he is dead. And if those two things actually happened ('just enough' and 'post death guarantee'), well it feels just too convenient. That is, it feels like a deus ex machina plot device to say 'this happened and the story is moved on and don't ask questions because it is a waste of author effort'.
In a similar vein, it is clearly possible that everyone was too tired/hurt/scared/stuck-in-their-worldview to think to ask a nin or ten to be reanimated, but I feel that would just have been too convenient. I can't prove/disprove, nor quantify likely/unlikely-ness.
So @Velorien I find this an unsatisfying response (understanding that you should not need to care, and I know that you don't have any requirement to respond at all...
) to the question RE why no one asked, or Nagato refused, to reanimate any of our nin, and the follow-on
in that it doesn't [seem to] hold together. The hokage is dead, yet we are meant to believe that the Leaf (putting aside the other villages for the time) has an organization or bureaucracy that will ingest such a report, redact and enforce a secrecy classification of the sort 'nobody except the next hokage can read this because we somehow know it is really important'. It just can't/shouldn't work in a village of our size.
Clearly that coincidence (just enough chakra for my 7 team only) may be the actual case; but it is a step too far for me. Not to mention that Nagato can then somehow force those 7 to retire quietly, and stay retired even after he is dead. And if those two things actually happened ('just enough' and 'post death guarantee'), well it feels just too convenient. That is, it feels like a deus ex machina plot device to say 'this happened and the story is moved on and don't ask questions because it is a waste of author effort'.
In a similar vein, it is clearly possible that everyone was too tired/hurt/scared/stuck-in-their-worldview to think to ask a nin or ten to be reanimated, but I feel that would just have been too convenient. I can't prove/disprove, nor quantify likely/unlikely-ness.
So @Velorien I find this an unsatisfying response (understanding that you should not need to care, and I know that you don't have any requirement to respond at all...
) to the question RE why no one asked, or Nagato refused, to reanimate any of our nin, and the follow-onin that it doesn't [seem to] hold together. The hokage is dead, yet we are meant to believe that the Leaf (putting aside the other villages for the time) has an organization or bureaucracy that will ingest such a report, redact and enforce a secrecy classification of the sort 'nobody except the next hokage can read this because we somehow know it is really important'. It just can't/shouldn't work in a village of our size.
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Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Well, keep in mind that they just saw all of their friends die, everyone for the most part was severely injured save Nagato, and that negotiating with the closest thing to ninja-Jesus-on-the-warpath might not've crossed their minds as an option (of the "Well, he might decide to murder us all and then execute his evil plan." variety, or of the "Literally none of the characters present actually believe they would be able to convince someone so clearly EvilWrongBadAssholeWithAnOpposingViewpoint to do something that benefits them/" or "It literally wouldn't occur to them to ask an enemy this thing in good faith." since they have blindspots.) at all.
I dunno, maybe I'm just not giving them enough credit, but I have a pretty dim view of older ninja generations in a vacuum. They're just inherently unreasonable people in many ways, for the most part.
- Location
- Academy City
- Pronouns
- They
Was this in doubt?
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
A good exercise for...well, life in general, is to practice steelmanning a viewpoint that you don't hold. With that said, I have a challenge for you: Come up with three reasons why things might have worked out the way they did. Here are some things to consider:So @Velorien I find this an unsatisfying response (understanding that you should not need to care, and I know that you don't have any requirement to respond at all...
- Why do you believe that no one asked?
- What was the marginal cost to Nagato for bringing a person back?
- Aside from chakra, what factors (if any) did you include when calculating that cost?
- What was the precise mechanism for bringing them back? Did that mechanism require preparation of any sort?
- Would Nagato have wanted to bring people other than his friends back? Why or why not?
- What were Nagato's goals?
- Did he give up on them when he died or is he hoping they will be achieved after his death?
- By what methods might they be achieved?
- Does the current state of the world (geopolitical + inter- and intra-national socioeconomics) help or hinder those goals?
- Location
- USA
Sooo, I don't think either of those solutions seem particularly "realistic."
Convincing Mari that she's not actually loved anymore just so she can reform a positive, genuine relationship, even if it's possible, is ignoring the fact that she believes she's bad because she can manipulate people into doing what she wants, and as long as she wants a relationship with Hazo and the others again, then even if they convince her they no longer love her somehow, she'll just feel that much more motivated to manipulate them... and if she somehow manages to keep herself from overtly doing so, there's nothing in her negative perception of herself that makes me think she won't just believe she's done it again anyway once they do start to like her.
Getting Mari in a position to do genuine, uncomplicated good is also going to be eternally warped by her perception. When someone falls down the rabbit hole of "all altruism is just self-serving," they can't actually see real compassion or care for others as selfless. When someone believes that's true just for themselves, the cynicism combined with self-hate gets ramped up to 11. Starting an orphanage or puppy rescue shelter would just be seen as a way to get vulnerable things to care about her and get status as someone who cares about others. This might work is if a) She goes off to a place where no one she cares about knows her and dedicates herself to unglamorous but helpful work, which would likely make her feel like she's being banished and also deprives everyone of her continued presence and the ability to show they care about her, so I doubt anyone would be likely to go for it, or b) she's told to do good works completely anonymously. The problem with both is she would likely feel like it's penance, not actual demonstration of caring about others or genuine change of heart/goodness, because she had to be TOLD to do it, she's not naturally selfless enough to just come up with it on her own.
The real problem is that her mental breakdown was extremely thorough, and her recovery since has been mildly miraculous, even if she's just holding it all together with duct tape internally for the good of the clan. If I had her as a client in therapy, there are plenty of things I would try to do and hope that one would resonate with her... Cognitive Behavioral Therapy to challenge her perspective that she's tricked people into loving her, Internal Family Systems to try and resolve her past trauma and self-perception as someone broken and evil, Narrative Therapy to restructure her perception of her lifestory by examining exceptions and the source of her self-image... it would be neat to see ninja therapists using similar techniques, potentially also with genjutsu to help. Maybe one would stick.
If things do end up going the therapy route, if you or @Velorien or @OliWhail want I could probably find some time to RP a ninja therapist while one of you takes Mari and we see how that plays out, but I can also talk to you guys more about what these therapies would look like and see if you think one might work for her.
What the kids and Kagome can do is think of times when Mari has been unambiguously selfless, like attempted to sacrifice herself to save one or all of them. If she's ever done that, I think she's forgotten about it, and it should help a lot if one of them forces her to recognize it, or if it comes up in the hypothetical therapy, if it's a group thing (or maybe the Goketsu alternates, like the therapist brings each of them in, either with Mari there too or not, to discuss whether they do think she manipulated them into loving her, and if not why not, or if they forgive her why).
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
Saving someone from themselves is one of the hardest things you can do. Mari's case is not helped by that fact that every form of interaction is manipulation of some kind, and she's good enough at it that she can't ever tell where her attempts to control people end and where she is just being herself. In her previous state she had decided they were one and the same.
She needs professional help, but those literally don't exist.
She needs professional help, but those literally don't exist.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
That would definitely be interesting, but the first step will be for the players to invent therapy, since it doesn't exist yet! The closest was when Neira used her skills as an interrogator to get Kagome to chill out a little bit.
Thank you for the offer; we really appreciate it. We'll definitely reach out if the opportunity comes up.
- Location
- Yes.
We can start by asking Mari to teach us. Surely she has psychological tactics for getting people to think a certain way!
- Location
- United States
Ninja-Milgram: torture this other ninja for not learning well enough, I'm your superior and I'm telling you to continue torturing even if it means you kill the (non-)learning ninja.
Good thing there's no ninja IRB!
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
...You know. That is a good point, actually. We should bring up to both Tsunade and Ino (as Yamanaka representative) that mental health is a relatively unexplored field and provide funding for research into therapeutic use of Yamanaka techniques and therapeutic use of talking.
- Location
- Yes.
Buy out that one bar with ninja on standby to talk to the traumatized ninjas....You know. That is a good point, actually. We should bring up to both Tsunade and Ino (as Yamanaka representative) that mental health is a relatively unexplored field and provide funding for research into therapeutic use of Yamanaka techniques and therapeutic use of talking.
KABUTO: Gah! No! Do you know how expensive a mental health department would be?!
I was thinking basic, fundamental research. Like how memories work.
Interlude: The View from Below
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Interlude: The View from Below
Various times, various places...
Rikio straightened up and wiped the sweat off his face before rubbing his back. The sun was hotter than Mom's oven and his feet were sore and bleeding from where the rice plants' claws kept scratching at them.
The heat and frequent rain had accelerated the growth of the rice plants, and the farmers were falling behind. They had only gotten to this field today, and the plants were already on the cusp of adulthood. In a few days or a week the coleoptile, currently soft and blunt, would finish hardening and sharpening while the rootclaws would become sturdy enough to support locomotion. If the crew didn't get the plants pithed and stripped soon then the entire field might walk away and there'd be nothing left for next year. Plus, these plants had been harvested for generations; everyone knew perfectly well that if they were ever allowed to fully mature then they would seek out their tormentors for retribution.
"Hey! You! Back to work!" The overseer came trotting over on his horse, riding crop upraised.
"Yes, sir!" Rikio quickly bent back to his work. Long practice made his hands quick and sure; both hands went on the stalk, thumbs facing in with right hand over left. Right hand went up, stripping all the coleoptiles with their delicious seeds off and tossing them over his shoulder into the wicker basket on his back. Left hand went down under the water, following the stalk down to where it met the rootclaws. He kept his wrist close the stalk as the still-soft claws frantically thrash at him. Thumb and finger went under the root bundle to where the bulb was growing, dug in, twisted and yanked, and tossed the bulb into the basket. He'd gotten the full bulb on the first go, so the plant immediately went quiescent. He swiped his face across his shoulder to try to get the stinging sweat out of his eyes, then took one step forward to the next plant.
From off in the distance—and not the far-enough distance!—came the sound of an explosion and shouting voices. Seconds later came the splashing of sandaled feet running across the flooded paddy. Running across it, on top of the water.
Rikio threw himself flat, not caring that his basket tipped and spilled an entire day's work into the water.
"Water Element: Death of a Thousand Blades!"
Rikio pressed himself into the muck, keeping his eyes and ears barely above the surface; it was important to know which way they were coming from.
"Earth Element: Fortress of the Earth!"
A screaming whine erupted, probably not more than two dozen yards from where Rikio hid. It was like the sound made by Shinya's sharpening wheel when he was putting the rough hone on a badly dulled blade, except overlapping on itself as though an entire village of Shinyas were working a wheel at once.
"Fire Element: Fire Snake!" The voice cracked in mid-word, the changing register showing a boy becoming a man.
"Fire Element: Eternal Serpents!" This voice was unmistakably female; she sounded surprisingly like Rikio's youngest sister. Of course, Rikio's youngest sister couldn't send twenty-foot-long snakes made of fire whirling through the air in a twisting, darting, terrifying dance that made Rikio shiver and press himself deeper into the muck.
One of the rice plants, this one a little older and stronger, jammed a claw into the meat of his calf. It didn't go in more than half an inch and the venom was still too weak to be dangerous, but that didn't stop it from feeling as though his leg was on fire. Rikio screamed, then immediately dropped completely under the water. One thing you did not want to do during a ninja fight was attract attention. He kicked hard at the base of the plant, tearing it out of the mud and dislodging the claw in his leg.
A thick leg with a heavy hoof came down next to his face as the overseer galloped past. It was good; the horse didn't step on Rikio but it did stir up the mud, providing better cover in the foot-deep water.
Rikio stayed down as long as he could, so long that his lungs burned, then slowly raised his head just enough to be able to see. Burning air scorched him; the entire paddy was on fire, all the stalks blazing like torches. He breathed out, breathed in, and dove under the water, awkwardly frog-kicking his way towards the trees that surrounded the paddy.
There were going to be some difficult conversations when the tax collector came around next month and was met with empty baskets and empty fields.
o-o-o-o
Bunji carefully suppressed his excitement; Machi still had three figs on her stall! Mom would be so excited—fig jam had been her favorite since she was a little girl. Her joint-ache had been acting up and the treat would make her smile. Still, excited or not, it was important not to seem excited.
"Is this all you've got?" he demanded of the stall owner. "Where are the greens?"
"Sold out to people who don't lie in bed all day," Machi sneered. That was hardly fair; the sun had been above the East Gate trees not even half an hour.
Bunji gave a put-upon sigh. "Ugh. Wilted carrots, pathetic tubers...are those boreworms in the apples?"
"There are no boreworms in my apples! I wrap each one of them in netting so that they can grow undisturbed. That's why they are the largest and finest examples of appledom you've ever seen!" The old woman snorted dismissively. "I'll warn you, they're dear. Fifty ryō each."
"Pah! As if! I'd barely pay one ryō! They look mealy."
"Well, then you'd best move on. I've already had a dozen people happy to pay my price, so I don't need a ragamuffin like you wasting time at my stall."
"I suppose I could stretch as far as five ryō each for three of them, if you threw in a dozen carrots as well."
"What?! Are you trying to beggar me?! The carrots are twelve ryō the one!" She flapped wrinkled hands at him. "Go on! Get out of here and come back when you actually have money. I wouldn't let my apples go for less that forty-eight ryō each."
"Forty-eight?! Forty-eight??!! That's highway robbery! Maybe I'd give you six, but only because you look like you haven't had a good meal in a week."
"Hah! I eat better than a beggar like you! Can't even muster up a measly forty-five ryō for a decent apple? What, is your ugly face keeping you from getting work?"
"Bah! Forget your apples and forget you. Nagasu has better produce over in Minato Plaza, and he has some idea what decent prices look like. I only stopped here because it was on my way." Bunji turned away as if to walk off.
"Now, hold on there! I suppose I could come down to forty."
Bunji turned back, giving the old woman a histrionic gape. "Forty? Forty? Woman, they aren't worth more than ten!" He paused, surveying the produce and shaking his head in disgust. "Tell you what. I'm in a hurry. I'll give you fifteen ryō for an apple and...ugh, none of this is any good. Well, the figs are least bad, I guess. Fifteen ryō for the apple and those three figs."
"Three?! You do want to beggar me! The figs are priceless! These are the finest figs in all of Leaf! Lovingly tended by my virgin daughter, watered only with water blessed by my ancestors!"
"Did you pass the water before getting it blessed? Look at how shriveled they are!" He reached out and picked up one of the fruit, turning it back and forth while sneering magnificently. In truth it was luscious, tender and undoubtedly bursting with flavor. He could feel his mouth watering just thinking about it. It had been a good week at the tannery and he had a full hundred and fifty ryō in his pocket. He'd been meaning to get some meat as a treat for the kids, but if he skipped that and got the figs instead he could probably make it work as long as Uncle Choki managed to bring in a few fish to make up the difference. And Mom really would be happy to have the fig jam. If they were sparing, he could even give a little to the kids.
"Oh, neat, figs! Hold up a minute, Hidehito."
Bunji had barely started to turn before a girl pushed past him—thirteen, maybe fourteen, but she wore a uniform and a Leaf's ninja headband. She grabbed the fig out of his hand and took a bite, then scooped up the other two.
"Damn, these are great! How much, old woman?"
Machi bowed low. "For you, mighty ninja, I give the discount due to our protectors. Merely a hundred for the lot."
"Cool." She reached into her pocket and tossed some coins at the stall owner, then turned and walked off, handing one of the figs to her friend as she went.
o-o-o-o
Tamio couldn't stop his foot from tapping furiously as he waited in the entrance room of the hospital. How long had it been? He'd been here for hours already. His stomach was growling and he really needed to pee, but he was afraid that if he ducked out to the alley to relieve himself he might miss his chance.
Just as he was about to decide that the demands of his bladder could no longer be refused, the door opened and two men walked in from the street, unwinding their thick wool scarves as they did. Tall, well-muscled and well-fed, with ninja headbands. The one on the right had the white eyes and crest of the omnipotent Hyūga clan, while the one on the left wore the crest of the Kurusu on his chest and the double red stripe of the medical corps on his armband. They were chatting and laughing, but they both stepped back as Tamio put himself in their way.
"Please, Mr Doctor Sir! Please! A moment, please!" He bowed deeply and repeatedly. "Please, sir, I need your help!"
"Ugh," said the Kurusu. "I can't believe they let softfeet in here. And now it's the nits as well as the lice?"
It was hard to tell when a Hyūga rolled his eyes, but the doctor seemed to do so. "I know, right? Lady Tsunade's fault. She lets them dash around underfoot all the time. What do you want, boy?"
"Please, Mr Doctor Sir, my mother is sick. She stepped on a nail three days ago, and now her whole foot is swole up and red! She's all hot and everything!"
The doctor shook his head in aggravation. "Is that all? Just tell her to soak it in some urine for an hour or two." He shook his head and looked at his friend. "Honestly, they don't even know the basics. Can you believe that Lady Tsunade has made us go out and try to teach them? Most infuriating experience of my life."
"I can imagine," the Hyūga said sympathetically. "The one who cleans my room can't even make a bed properly. The pillows are never plumped. If I've told her once I've told her thrice and she just can't remember. I keep wanting a replacement, but all the good ones are taken and Lord Hiashi won't allow non-clan workers on the grounds."
"Please, Mr Doctor Sir," Tamio said desperately. "Please, won't you come?"
"Look, boy," the doctor said. "I've got twelve hours of rounds to do. I've got two genin squads who got mauled by something or other and barely made it home. Lady Tsunade herself worked on the surviving squad leader, and he's raving off his head and trying to cast jutsu at us unless we dope him unconscious. I've got someone who ran into a genjutsu user, probably a Rock spy from what the Yamanaka have been able to dig out. He constantly thinks he's being eaten by rats and we can't knock him out because he needs to be awake for the Yamanaka to work on undoing as much of the damage as possible, so he's in full restraints and screaming at the top of his lungs. I've got six members of the Daimyo's court down with what might be the red pox or might just be hives and I'm expected to minister to all of them. I don't have time to go running off after every softfoot old woman so careless as to not watch where she puts her feet. Soak her foot in urine until it gets better, bring her in if it doesn't improve within a few days. Now move."
He pushed Tamio aside and strode past the nurse's station with a nod to the civilian auxiliary at the desk. He had barely lifted the latch on the door when it slammed open. Only ninja reflexes allowed him to jump back in time to avoid getting his nose broken as a middle-aged blonde woman limped violently into the room.
"Ko!" she bellowed at the civilian woman. "Where is that lazy—" She cut herself off as she saw the doctor standing there. "Fina-fucking-ly! You're late!"
Tamio watched wide-eyed as Mr Doctor Sir bowed to the blonde woman, bowed so deeply that his back was past horizontal.
"Your pardon, Lady Tsunade! It won't happen again!"
"You're fucking right it won't. When rounds start, I shouldn't have to be looking for you." She glanced over his shoulder at the Hyūga and Tamio. "Who're these lot?"
The Hyūga bowed deeply. "I am Hyūga Tadafumi, My Lady. I came to visit my cousin, Hyūga Nozomi."
Lady Tsunade grunted. "Nozomi...that the whiny bint with the boo-boo on her arm or the snotty brat with the busted foot?"
The Hyūga's face crimped up as though he were trying very hard not to frown. "Nozomi was stabbed during weapons practice, My Lady. With the greatest respect, I would not call it a 'boo-boo'."
"Well, I fucking would. It's just the muscle, no tendon or nerve damage. She'll be fine in a couple weeks; hardly worth the walk here and definitely not worth having her stick around." She glanced behind the Hyūga to where Tamio was fidgeting and shifting from foot to foot. "Hey, kid, what's up with you? Got ants in your pants or what?"
"P-please, Lady Tsunade, ma'am!" Tamio bowed, over and over, trying hard not to panic. This was Lady Tsunade herself! The Slug Princess, a member of the Three! The woman who shattered the Blue Mountain because its shade caused her a chill, and breathed life back into her teammates during the Great War!
Lady Tsunade sighed. "Spit it out, kid. I've got sick people waiting and a doctor I need to finish tearing strips off of."
"It's his mother, ma'am," the doctor said dismissively. "Apparently she stepped on a nail. I told the boy to have her soak it in some urine and bring her in if it doesn't get better in a few days."
"Please, Lady Tsunade! It's all swole up and red, and she's hot and having waking dreams."
Lady Tsunade frowned. "Is there anything coming out of the hole? Yellow pus, maybe?"
Tamio nodded. "Yes, ma'am. But it's more green than yellow."
"Veins on her leg swollen?"
Lady Tsunade looked angry at having him waste her time; Tamio had to force himself to swallow before he could answer her question. "Y-Y-yes, m-ma'am."
Lady Tsunade swore and backhanded Mr Doctor Sir across the face. "You stupid fuck! She's got blood sickness and you told her to soak it in piss?!"
Mr Doctor Sir staggered back, eyes flashing in anger. One hand started to come up to his face and then froze, locked at his side because he very clearly knew that even appearing as though he were raising a hand in anger might be worth his life, given the mood the Slug Princess was in.
"He didn't tell me that part," Mr Doctor Sir hissed through clenched teeth. "He just said it was swollen up and red, with a little fever."
Lady Tsunade started to shout, then saw how Tamio was cowering at being stuck in a room with angry ninja. She visibly forced herself to take a deep breath and speak calmly.
"Doctor Kurusu," she said, smiling with teeth. "Did you actually ask the boy anything about his mother's symptoms?"
"I...uh..."
"I will deal with you later." She walked forward and he scrambled to get out of her way. "C'mon, kid," she said to Tamio, opening the coat closet and slinging a cloak over her shoulders. "Show me where your mom is."
o-o-o-o
All praise be to @eaglejarl, in case it wasn't obvious from the US English.
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