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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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@Kiba Here's my proposed edits to your plan. I changed a lot of stuff (the apology, reformatted the discussions, altered the educational reform as per @Ipsos Custodes' suggestions earlier, added discussion on the Amori for the meetings...). Most importantly, I removed anything that wasn't relevant to the discussions specifically. I'm concerned that eaglejarl won't approve of us doing things that are in addition to the action slots.
[X] Action Plan: Meeting of the Minds Redux
Wordcount: 214

Apologize to Mari. We were extremely frustrated by the deal because of its treatment of women and Hazou's children as little more than political bargaining chips. Even so, we should not have acted in the way that we did.

Sanity-check Hazou's agenda with Mari (and the clan, if available) beforehand. Use Mari's advice and suggestions. Don't blurt out OPSEC-sensitive info (e.g., our strategic moves) unless previously cleared.

General:
  • Exchange condolences and commiseration.
  • Ask about the Amori and their particular goals. Try to figure out what they've offered so we have a better idea of how to sweeten the pot.
Ino/Chouza:
  • Confirm that they are voting for Asuma.
  • Ask what they think Hiashi/Asuma would act as Hokage.
Asuma:
  • Hazo is worried about a world war breaking out; what's his game plan for keeping the peace?
  • What are Asuma's priorities for improving Konoha?
  • Suggestions for the future:
    • (IFF Naruto's OK with it) Naruto continues his leadership training by becoming a personal assistant to the kage or to that effect.
    • Focus on economic development through till'n'fills. Ninja magic will help grow the economy faster and save more lives.
    • Education. Kagome, Honoka, and Hazo's experience with education suggests villages' education system are probably have their own strengths. Improving the academy will give Leaf an advantage.
 
Huh, with those clan ninja getting all formal... Is Hiashi going full 'Make Konoha Great Again' on us? Complete with blind nostalgia for a past that never was? Promoting a more formal and 'noble' ideal among the clans would actually be a pretty good way to counter Uplift.
 
Kiba said:
[X] Action Plan: Meeting of the Minds Redux
Wordcount: 299

Apologize to Mari. We were extremely frustrated by the deal because of its treatment of women and Hazou's children as little more than political bargaining chips. Even so, we should not have acted in the way that we did.

Sanity-check Hazou's agenda with Mari (and the clan, if available) beforehand. Use Mari's advice and suggestions. Don't blurt out OPSEC-sensitive info (e.g., our strategic moves) unless previously cleared.

General:

  • Exchange condolences and commiseration.
  • Ask about the Amori and their particular goals. Try to figure out what they've offered so we have a better idea of how to sweeten the pot.
Ino/Chouza:

  • Confirm that they are voting for Asuma.
  • Ask what they think Hiashi/Asuma would act as Hokage.

Asuma:
  • Hazo is worried about a world war breaking out; what's his game plan for keeping the peace?
  • What are Asuma's priorities for improving Konoha?
  • Suggestions for the future:
    • (IFF Naruto's OK with it) Naruto continues his leadership training by becoming a personal assistant to the kage or to that effect.
    • Focus on economic development through till'n'fills. Ninja magic will help grow the economy faster and save more lives.
    • Education. Kagome, Honoka, and Hazo's experience with education suggests villages' education system are probably have their own strengths. Improving the academy will give Leaf an advantage.

At Goketsu Compound:
  • Tell Naruto about the clan's effort to secure deals and ask Naruto what he has been up to.
  • Give Mari a broad toolkit she needed for negotiation with the Amori, such as a budget, support role training offer, trading preferences, specialty seal, etc. We want to secure a deal ASAP.
  • Accept the longer payment scheme for the Uchiha deal so that they are incentivized to keep us alive.
If there's time:
  • Work on land clearing's legal, economic, and operational aspects.
  • Ami-style training
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Updated using Faflec's suggestion.
 
traverseda said:
I don't have time to get into the rest of your post today, so sorry if I'm mischaracterizing you due to that, but I don't think the person who actually figured out some new aspect of textile machinery had that much control over how it was deployed, or what effects it had on society. That's what I was trying to communicate when I said I thought you were underestimating the effects of the environment/culture we're embedded on.

I'm trying to put into words the game-theoretic mechanism that makes it so that you have to use the underhanded/evil tactics of your neighbors if you want to compete. I remember a number of years ago there were a bunch of news stories about a board game that simulated the (textile? clothing?) industry in a developing world, and even people who wanted to provide the best standard of living they could were eventually forced to change their policies so that they were only a little bit better then their peers. Can't find the article today, although it would be the perfect example of the thing I'm trying to get across.
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That sounds an interesting read if you happen to find those articles again.

I think the principle I'd consider here is that taking away someone's subsistence does make you evil in the rawest sense. They cannot trust your good will to them at that point and working together for a common good isn't possible. Taking away the income lots of people need to survive to give a smaller number of people extra luxury income is bad, so if your invention is used that way you shouldn't invent it. So if we were facing a situation where my new robots could replace everyone today that would be bad if there was no UBI replacement for the income.

traverseda said:
When scorch-squads are a tactic everyone else uses, not using scorch-squads means your nation needs to be really powerful in order to keep up. You have to compromise with sin, especially if your powerless, but you can at least try to minimize and direct that compromise. You can't just not be evil though, not if you want to compete with people who are evil.
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I'd argue that that's an argument for the survival of the state, not the morals. I would argue refusing to participate would do more to end the practice. I also see a natural counter here in arming and training your civilians to defend themselves. An oppressive state couldn't afford to mobilize it's population into a samurai army while one fighting for it's civilian's welfare imaginably could.

18scsc said:
1) I think it's hugely optimistic to assume Haishi can pursue political isolationism without causing economic effects on some level. Even if he's not outright raising tariffs he won't be helping us to send emissaries to spread the message of Uplift, he won't be helping us spread the economy improving technologies or practices we're working on, because spreading those will cause the rise of populations which means more ninja that could oppose Leaf.
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1) I agree Hiashi would be worse than Asuma for both goals and any loss of trade could be a significant loss to future civilian welfare, but unless he cuts food off I don't think it's a decisive one. The basic problem of civilians being exploited for almost everything they have and holding very little power in society remains. That's what needs to be upended and working through unfriendly or hostile rulers is probably going to be the norm trying to do that. The way I see that happening is a civilian uplift arms race where treating your civilians well is made a strategic asset and everyone is given the tools to join in. If Hiashi tries to argue that point against Tsunade he'd be in trouble and there's a good realpolitik case to go ahead anyway. Konoha has the best history with it's civilians and arable land to support expanded populations so it's at a natural advantage to it's rivals playing that game.

18scsc said:
2) You seem to think that the Akatsuki succeeding would've been good, because of the huge benefits it might entail. This, despite all the evils they've done, and this despite the fact that they'd be fucking with folks' heads without their consent (I kind of dislike the term "mindrape" for various reasons but it fits here). Which, I mean, I could make an argument for but it would have to rely on extreme utilitarianism. This seems like it conflicts with the more deontological positions you have seemed to prioritize elsewhere, and to a massive degree.
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2) I don't think weighing whether going to war with Akatsuki is a good thing depends on them behaving like I think they ideally would. What matters is whether there's something you have to defend that's worth the cost, and in this case if you had perfect information I don't think fighting them was the right choice. Talking to them to try and get the hostages free and renegotiate their plan would have been.

18scsc said:
3) I"m pretty sure we'd be dead or at least not in a position to change anything whatsoever if the thread as a whole shared your moral philosophy. MFD is just a really really shitty world and you can't really get anything done without power, because, as in the real world, there are always very powerful people with a vested interest in maintaining the status quo no matter how many other people suffer. If one can't gain their own power or leverage the power of others one will either be completely ineffectual or one will be utterly crushed.

There is only one real way I could see your basic goal of "avoid causing any conflict and suffering unless necessary for self-defense" (and forgive me if this is a misunderstanding) working, assuming we actually cared about improving things rather than just surviving. That would be to just lighthouse for years until we come up with seals powerful enough that we can threaten everyone into behaving well through sheer force. Which uhh, well it's hard to argue with that position if one assumes that stopping the Akatsuki was actually a bad thing.
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I'd say the thing to do from a purely ethical perspective is join Tsunade, probably to work on civilian applications of earth jutsu rather than seals. The risks of sealing failure and the individual nature of sealcrafting are an obstacle to mass application. Heavy labor replacing ninjutsu could improve fortifications against chakra beasts and free up labour for other work to increase living standards.

18scsc said:
4)
I'm gonna be nice, and note this is actually a rather astute observation.
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Thank you.
 
@Kiba
Word count: 299

Morningtime clan meeting:
  • Apologize to Mari. We were extremely frustrated by the deal because of its treatment of women and Hazou's children as little more than political bargaining chips. Even so, we should not have acted in the way that we did.
  • Tell Naruto about the clan's efforts to secure deals and ask Naruto what he's been up to.
  • Mari's in charge of Amori negotiations. Give her a list of things we're 100% willing to offer for their vote, like money, training, trade deals, specialized seals.... We want to secure a deal ASAP.
  • Accept the longer payment scheme for the Uchiha deal. It incentivizes them to keep us alive.
  • Sanity-check Hazou's agenda with Mari (and the clan, if available) beforehand. Use Mari's advice and suggestions. Don't blurt out OPSEC-sensitive info (e.g., our strategic moves) unless previously cleared.
Afternoon: Meetings
  • General:
    • Exchange condolences and commiseration.
    • Ask about the Amori and their particular goals. Try to figure out what they've offered so we have a better idea of how to sweeten the pot.
  • (Off-screened) Ino/Chouza:
    • Confirm that they are voting for Asuma.
    • Ask what they think Hiashi/Asuma would act as Hokage.
  • Asuma:
    • Hazo is worried about a world war breaking out; what's his game plan for keeping the peace?
    • What are Asuma's priorities for improving Konoha?
    • Suggestions for the future:
      • (IFF Naruto's OK with it) Naruto continues his leadership training by becoming a personal assistant to the kage or to that effect.
      • Focus on economic development through till'n'fills. Ninja magic will help grow the economy faster and save more lives.
      • Education. Kagome, Honoka, and Hazo's experience with education suggests villages' education system are probably have their own strengths. Improving the academy will give Leaf an advantage.
Misc.:
  • Work on land clearing's legal, economic, and operational aspects.
  • Ami-style training.
 
Huh, spoilering a vote still counts it as one. Gonna re-cast it anyway, in case the first one gets cut out due to system changes.

[X] Action Plan: Meeting of the Minds Redux
 
Immortal Lurker said:
I'm going to be useless for voting, but I wanted to post this:

OMAKE: Better left unsaid.

Hazou had always been able to think quickly. It was his best trait, allowing him to react to impossible situations with certainty in the blink of an eye.

So when Jiraiya, his Kage, clan leader, and adoptive father said



Hazou was able to think about a lot of things. A lot of things.

For starters, common sense said that Jiraiya was fantastically unlikely to kill him.

Fear still shot through him. Ninja danger instincts are wired deep, Missing Nin danger instincts run deeper still, and Hazou had learned at the foot of Kagome, a man so wracked by paranoia he couldn't tell people he was willing to die for his real name.

Instincts that deep work their way around common sense. Especially when the most powerful ninja alive was putting effort into making sure that happened.

Oh crap, he hasn't been this angry since Hot Springs.

Think, where are the exits? Can you escape?

No, pay attention, he is talking about maybe killing you in the future, if you do something you aren't likely to do.

Also, he seemed pretty sincere about liking you.

This allowed space in his mind for another strand of thought. A ragged, renegade line of thought, which tinted both the fear and the common sense with red.

How dare he?

A speech was composed in his mind, fully formed in the space of a breath.

Sir, if you are going to sit here and chew me out for screwing up till the chakra cows come and eat the home... Well, my actions have earned that. I've screwed up more times then I can count.

But I am not going to stand here and listen to you imply that I might want to kill my godbrother. I refuse, sir.

And would like to know which action was it, precisely, that made you think I would do that? Was it completing every mission you ever gave me with flying colors? Did that make me seem too ambitious? Wait, not every mission, there was that one time you gave me bad intel and my Chuunin commander died saving me.

Was it the part where I obeyed every request you've ever actually made of me, even before I became a Leaf Ninja? And once I was a Leaf Ninja, I obeyed every order from Leaf. Was every order a suspicious amount of obedience? And I do mean every order, sir. There are fifty civilians at the bottom of the sea, that I put there because ultimately it would have caused problems for you if I showed them the slightest bit of decency. Would seventy have been enough to satisfy this... this paranoia of yours? Sir?

Maybe you think its Leaf that I'm not on board with? That is actually funny. I seem to remember having handed Leaf the SAGE DAMNED WORLD on a silver platter, Sir, even after it tried to slaughter my entire team in front of my eyes because they didn't like the words I used.

Do you think I'm keeping things from you, sir? That I don't trust you with something? I trusted you with Kagome's life! When he snapped on Minami, I told you everything! I put his life in your hands and I am enraged, sir, that you could even think that there might be some secret, short sighted scheme for power that I value more than that.

Maybe you want a fortune in gold as well before you're convinced I'm not scum? Wait a minute,"You Lot", as you so scornfully called four fifths of your family, sir, already gave you one!

So what is it you want, sir? Another super weapon? You did seem to choke on that last silver platter. A second fortune? I'm working on it. My adoptive sister's hand in marriage? You already sold that, without asking, for the sake of a boy she's never met. No chance you need to use death threats to remind her where she is in the pecking order, sir, I think she's gotten the point.

Just tell me what its going to take, sir, because I think even I'm running out of ideas. What do you give the man you've already given everything?

As the words start to come out, Hazou bites down, hard. He tastes blood.

This is not the time. Jiraiya's angry, and he has a right to be. People are listening.

I can't use this.

Blood and anger are swallowed. Different words started to form instead. Pain. Confusion. Remembered glories and shattering rose tinted glass.

Sir... I... I thought we were past this. You haven't mistrusted me this badly since you needed to prove that you could kill me. Since then you brought me into your village, into your home.

I haven't mistrusted you since I trusted you with my dream. Uplift. The full scope of it. I didn't pull any punches, I didn't put it in terms of practicality or gain. Just a dream, a prayer, a hope of a world that is something other than darkness. Laid out bare by a powerless child to one of the most powerful men in the world.

Do you remember what I said, sir? How everything that made Leaf different filled me with wonder. How I wanted more of it, and everywhere. How we were going to save the world together, sir.

And you got it. You said yes! We've been taking steps, talking to people, learning things. Till and fills! We were doing it, we are doing it!

And every time I'd ever heard you talk about Naruto, I'd always assumed that he was going to be part of it.

I know you noticed, sir. How I perk up and pay attention every time you talk about him. How I listen whenever you say that he's a little like me. How I'm hoping that there might be someone else out there who gets it.

I know you're reading my research notes. Do you not see how many times he's in there?

"Good plan, chakra intensive, check once Naruto is back."

"This could work, but it needs Naruto."

"We could save these people if we had Naruto."

Do you think all those are lies? That I'm trying to throw you off the trail?

...

Do you trust me? I need you to trust me. We still need to save the world together.

Its true. Its so true that it burns at his eyes, threatening tears. Hazou clears his mouth and starts to raise his head to speak.

Except it isn't all the truth. The injustice, the anger is still there. It stops his gaze from meeting Jiraiya's.

He has to say something. Anything.

Speeches, rants, apologies, tears, CCNJ, and incoherent screams all flash in and out, passing through his mind. They're all exactly right. They're all completely wrong.

Hazou steels himself to say something, anything, to somehow convey how angry, hurt, and sad he is to a man who could detect twenty years of plotting from how someone met his eyes.

Hazou opens his mouth...

And closes it.
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@eaglejarl, @Velorien, @OliWhail: Now that Jiraya is dead and it'll have no impact on the world, would you consider canonizing Better Left Unsaid 1 and 2?

I still really want at least those to be canon '>_>
 
@Kiba . What do you think about these additions?
For sanity checking agenda with Mari consider explicitly mentioning: Uchiha deal convinced Mari we prioritize the hat over long term political power. Does she think putting more focus on the long term instead of the hat in negotiations with the Amori would help Uplift goals better?
Demand as Mari's clan head to give an honest estimate of her mental health, unless she thinks talking about it would significantly worsen it.
Asking Ino/Chouza
-how much power in practice the Hokage has in comparison to a clan/founding clan.
-why they support Asuma. If answer is because Shika support ask why Shika support? This question can help us learn how to prevent Hyuga from flipping other clans votes, and to learn about Asuma
Taking half an hour to skim through Jiraiya's notes about 6th path politics
 
Last edited:
roobee said:
@Kiba . What do you think about these additions?
For sanity checking agenda with Mari consider explicitly mentioning: Uchiha deal convinced Mari we prioritize the hat over long term political power. Does she think putting more focus on the long term instead of the hat in negotiations with the Amori would help Uplift goals better?
Demand as Mari's clan head to give an honest estimate of her mental health, unless she thinks talking about it would significantly worsen it.
Asking Ino/Chouza
-how much power in practice the Hokage has in comparison to a clan/founding clan.
-why they support Asuma. If answer is because Shika support ask why Shika support? This question can help us learn how to prevent Hyuga from flipping other clans votes, and to learn about Asuma
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Those additions aren't worth talking about without word count reduction to make rooms for the additions, and only if it doesn't reduce readability.

We are already near the limit of 300 words.
 
About how much of a difference does the bonus XP make? Not in terms of numbers but in terms of a story of what you could do with and without the XP?
 
roobee said:
About how much of a difference does the bonus XP make? Not in terms of numbers but in terms of a story of what you could do with and without the XP?
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We get one bonus XP max per action plan and we generally keep to under 300 words since it is about what the QMs can do.

Unless there is something really important that required more words.
 
roobee said:
About how much of a difference does the bonus XP make? Not in terms of numbers but in terms of a story of what you could do with and without the XP?
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Hazou's base XP rate is somewhere between 3.5 and 4 XP per IC day, and at the rate the story's been going we tend to cover less than one IC day per plan, so if we make a policy of getting the plan XP every cycle we'll be increasing Hazou's XP gain by over 25% until the story speeds up, at which point I will be too busy celebrating the story having sped up to care about the depreciation of bonus XP marginal value.

Gamerlord said:
I seem unable to locate a link to the discord; could you assist?
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Check his signature.
 
Kiba said:
[X] Action Plan: Meeting of the Minds Redux
Wordcount: 297

Clan Meeting:

  • Apologize to Mari. We were extremely frustrated by the deal because of its treatment of women and Hazou's children as little more than political bargaining chips. Even so, we should not have acted in the way that we did.
  • Tell Naruto about the clan's efforts to secure deals and ask Naruto what he's been up to.
  • Mari's in charge of Amori negotiations. Give her a list of things we're 100% willing to offer for their vote, like money, training, trade deals, specialized seals.... We want to secure a deal ASAP.
  • Accept the longer payment scheme for the Uchiha deal. It incentivizes them to keep us alive.
  • Sanity-check Hazou's agenda with Mari (and the clan, if available) beforehand. Use Mari's advice and suggestions. Don't blurt out OPSEC-sensitive info (e.g., our strategic moves) unless previously cleared.
Social Calls/Meetings:

  • General:
    • Exchange condolences and commiseration.
    • Ask about the Amori and their particular goals. Try to figure out what they've offered so we have a better idea of how to sweeten the pot.
  • (Off-screened) Ino/Chouza:
    • Confirm that they are voting for Asuma.
    • Ask what they think Hiashi/Asuma would act as Hokage.
  • Asuma:
    • Hazo is worried about a world war breaking out; what's his game plan for keeping the peace?
    • What are Asuma's priorities for improving Konoha?
    • Suggestions for the future:
      • (IFF Naruto's OK with it) Naruto continues his leadership training by becoming a personal assistant to the kage or to that effect.
      • Focus on economic development through till'n'fills. Ninja magic will help grow the economy faster and save more lives.
      • Kagome, Honoka, and Hazo's experience with education suggests villages' education system still have ways they can improve. Focusing efforts here'll give Leaf an advantage.
Misc.:

  • Work on land clearing's legal, economic, and operational aspects.
  • Ami-style training.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Renamed morning meeting to clan meeting and afternoon to simply social calls/meeting so that whatever was the original schedule didn't conflict with the plan.
 
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