- Location
- Yes.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
-
- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
I think Hazou would recognize a seal if he was staring at one. Literally.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
I would prefer if Hazou didn't touch a seal someone mailed him for longer than necessary, let alone destructively interact with it. It should've been handed to ANBU two minutes ago.
Good points. Moved that section:
If it's a disguised seal, do we necessarily want to destroy it? It sounds like a good way to clandestinely convey information.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
Well, Hazou will probably download it, so we'll be able to draw the blank and study it on our leisure later. If it's an infused seal, it's more likely to be a bomb or something.
- Location
- NY
Would it be a good idea to encode the message instead of outright saying it? Maybe something like "More gyoza at home, come eat it while it's hot." Still obviously a coded message about urgent news, but it leaves the topic of that news ambiguous while simultaneously informing J-man of our concern.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Hold up there, chief, I just realized something.
>We have a way to auto-download information into Iron Nerve user's minds, permanently.
You know what this means, don't you?
Ren Sucks! Seal
This seal shines like a nightlight for approximately five seconds before running out of juice. Truly a pathetic seal. It sucks.
Also memetic warfare
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Noumero
Omit Needless Words
Not sure. The ANBU are presumably a secure channel of communication, and the current version doesn't say anything except that it's related to politics and is unexpected. I think we shouldn't sacrifice all clarity in exchange for marginal security improvements (lest Jiraiya think it's not important at all), and the "unexpected" bit may even work to our advantage: if someone intercepts it, it won't support the "proposal" narrative (while still leaving us an out for accepting).
OMAKE: Better Left Unsaid, Part 1
- Location
- Under a Rock
I'm going to be useless for voting, but I wanted to post this:
OMAKE: Better left unsaid.
Hazou had always been able to think quickly. It was his best trait, allowing him to react to impossible situations with certainty in the blink of an eye.
So when Jiraiya, his Kage, clan leader, and adoptive father said
Hazou was able to think about a lot of things. A lot of things.
For starters, common sense said that Jiraiya was fantastically unlikely to kill him.
Fear still shot through him. Ninja danger instincts are wired deep, Missing Nin danger instincts run deeper still, and Hazou had learned at the foot of Kagome, a man so wracked by paranoia he couldn't tell people he was willing to die for his real name.
Instincts that deep work their way around common sense. Especially when the most powerful ninja alive was putting effort into making sure that happened.
Oh crap, he hasn't been this angry since Hot Springs.
Think, where are the exits? Can you escape?
No, pay attention, he is talking about maybe killing you in the future, if you do something you aren't likely to do.
Also, he seemed pretty sincere about liking you.
This allowed space in his mind for another strand of thought. A ragged, renegade line of thought, which tinted both the fear and the common sense with red.
How dare he?
A speech was composed in his mind, fully formed in the space of a breath.
Sir, if you are going to sit here and chew me out for screwing up till the chakra cows come and eat the home... Well, my actions have earned that. I've screwed up more times then I can count.
But I am not going to stand here and listen to you imply that I might want to kill my godbrother. I refuse, sir.
And would like to know which action was it, precisely, that made you think I would do that? Was it completing every mission you ever gave me with flying colors? Did that make me seem too ambitious? Wait, not every mission, there was that one time you gave me bad intel and my Chuunin commander died saving me.
Was it the part where I obeyed every request you've ever actually made of me, even before I became a Leaf Ninja? And once I was a Leaf Ninja, I obeyed every order from Leaf. Was every order a suspicious amount of obedience? And I do mean every order, sir. There are fifty civilians at the bottom of the sea, that I put there because ultimately it would have caused problems for you if I showed them the slightest bit of decency. Would seventy have been enough to satisfy this... this paranoia of yours? Sir?
Maybe you think its Leaf that I'm not on board with? That is actually funny. I seem to remember having handed Leaf the SAGE DAMNED WORLD on a silver platter, Sir, even after it tried to slaughter my entire team in front of my eyes because they didn't like the words I used.
Do you think I'm keeping things from you, sir? That I don't trust you with something? I trusted you with Kagome's life! When he snapped on Minami, I told you everything! I put his life in your hands and I am enraged, sir, that you could even think that there might be some secret, short sighted scheme for power that I value more than that.
Maybe you want a fortune in gold as well before you're convinced I'm not scum? Wait a minute,"You Lot", as you so scornfully called four fifths of your family, sir, already gave you one!
So what is it you want, sir? Another super weapon? You did seem to choke on that last silver platter. A second fortune? I'm working on it. My adoptive sister's hand in marriage? You already sold that, without asking, for the sake of a boy she's never met. No chance you need to use death threats to remind her where she is in the pecking order, sir, I think she's gotten the point.
Just tell me what its going to take, sir, because I think even I'm running out of ideas. What do you give the man you've already given everything?
As the words start to come out, Hazou bites down, hard. He tastes blood.
This is not the time. Jiraiya's angry, and he has a right to be. People are listening.
I can't use this.
Blood and anger are swallowed. Different words started to form instead. Pain. Confusion. Remembered glories and shattering rose tinted glass.
Sir... I... I thought we were past this. You haven't mistrusted me this badly since you needed to prove that you could kill me. Since then you brought me into your village, into your home.
I haven't mistrusted you since I trusted you with my dream. Uplift. The full scope of it. I didn't pull any punches, I didn't put it in terms of practicality or gain. Just a dream, a prayer, a hope of a world that is something other than darkness. Laid out bare by a powerless child to one of the most powerful men in the world.
Do you remember what I said, sir? How everything that made Leaf different filled me with wonder. How I wanted more of it, and everywhere. How we were going to save the world together, sir.
And you got it. You said yes! We've been taking steps, talking to people, learning things. Till and fills! We were doing it, we are doing it!
And every time I'd ever heard you talk about Naruto, I'd always assumed that he was going to be part of it.
I know you noticed, sir. How I perk up and pay attention every time you talk about him. How I listen whenever you say that he's a little like me. How I'm hoping that there might be someone else out there who gets it.
I know you're reading my research notes. Do you not see how many times he's in there?
"Good plan, chakra intensive, check once Naruto is back."
"This could work, but it needs Naruto."
"We could save these people if we had Naruto."
Do you think all those are lies? That I'm trying to throw you off the trail?
...
Do you trust me? I need you to trust me. We still need to save the world together.
Its true. Its so true that it burns at his eyes, threatening tears. Hazou clears his mouth and starts to raise his head to speak.
Except it isn't all the truth. The injustice, the anger is still there. It stops his gaze from meeting Jiraiya's.
He has to say something. Anything.
Speeches, rants, apologies, tears, CCNJ, and incoherent screams all flash in and out, passing through his mind. They're all exactly right. They're all completely wrong.
Hazou steels himself to say something, anything, to somehow convey how angry, hurt, and sad he is to a man who could detect twenty years of plotting from how someone met his eyes.
Hazou opens his mouth...
And closes it.
OMAKE: Better left unsaid.
Hazou had always been able to think quickly. It was his best trait, allowing him to react to impossible situations with certainty in the blink of an eye.
So when Jiraiya, his Kage, clan leader, and adoptive father said
Hazou was able to think about a lot of things. A lot of things.
For starters, common sense said that Jiraiya was fantastically unlikely to kill him.
Fear still shot through him. Ninja danger instincts are wired deep, Missing Nin danger instincts run deeper still, and Hazou had learned at the foot of Kagome, a man so wracked by paranoia he couldn't tell people he was willing to die for his real name.
Instincts that deep work their way around common sense. Especially when the most powerful ninja alive was putting effort into making sure that happened.
Oh crap, he hasn't been this angry since Hot Springs.
Think, where are the exits? Can you escape?
No, pay attention, he is talking about maybe killing you in the future, if you do something you aren't likely to do.
Also, he seemed pretty sincere about liking you.
This allowed space in his mind for another strand of thought. A ragged, renegade line of thought, which tinted both the fear and the common sense with red.
How dare he?
A speech was composed in his mind, fully formed in the space of a breath.
Sir, if you are going to sit here and chew me out for screwing up till the chakra cows come and eat the home... Well, my actions have earned that. I've screwed up more times then I can count.
But I am not going to stand here and listen to you imply that I might want to kill my godbrother. I refuse, sir.
And would like to know which action was it, precisely, that made you think I would do that? Was it completing every mission you ever gave me with flying colors? Did that make me seem too ambitious? Wait, not every mission, there was that one time you gave me bad intel and my Chuunin commander died saving me.
Was it the part where I obeyed every request you've ever actually made of me, even before I became a Leaf Ninja? And once I was a Leaf Ninja, I obeyed every order from Leaf. Was every order a suspicious amount of obedience? And I do mean every order, sir. There are fifty civilians at the bottom of the sea, that I put there because ultimately it would have caused problems for you if I showed them the slightest bit of decency. Would seventy have been enough to satisfy this... this paranoia of yours? Sir?
Maybe you think its Leaf that I'm not on board with? That is actually funny. I seem to remember having handed Leaf the SAGE DAMNED WORLD on a silver platter, Sir, even after it tried to slaughter my entire team in front of my eyes because they didn't like the words I used.
Do you think I'm keeping things from you, sir? That I don't trust you with something? I trusted you with Kagome's life! When he snapped on Minami, I told you everything! I put his life in your hands and I am enraged, sir, that you could even think that there might be some secret, short sighted scheme for power that I value more than that.
Maybe you want a fortune in gold as well before you're convinced I'm not scum? Wait a minute,"You Lot", as you so scornfully called four fifths of your family, sir, already gave you one!
So what is it you want, sir? Another super weapon? You did seem to choke on that last silver platter. A second fortune? I'm working on it. My adoptive sister's hand in marriage? You already sold that, without asking, for the sake of a boy she's never met. No chance you need to use death threats to remind her where she is in the pecking order, sir, I think she's gotten the point.
Just tell me what its going to take, sir, because I think even I'm running out of ideas. What do you give the man you've already given everything?
As the words start to come out, Hazou bites down, hard. He tastes blood.
This is not the time. Jiraiya's angry, and he has a right to be. People are listening.
I can't use this.
Blood and anger are swallowed. Different words started to form instead. Pain. Confusion. Remembered glories and shattering rose tinted glass.
Sir... I... I thought we were past this. You haven't mistrusted me this badly since you needed to prove that you could kill me. Since then you brought me into your village, into your home.
I haven't mistrusted you since I trusted you with my dream. Uplift. The full scope of it. I didn't pull any punches, I didn't put it in terms of practicality or gain. Just a dream, a prayer, a hope of a world that is something other than darkness. Laid out bare by a powerless child to one of the most powerful men in the world.
Do you remember what I said, sir? How everything that made Leaf different filled me with wonder. How I wanted more of it, and everywhere. How we were going to save the world together, sir.
And you got it. You said yes! We've been taking steps, talking to people, learning things. Till and fills! We were doing it, we are doing it!
And every time I'd ever heard you talk about Naruto, I'd always assumed that he was going to be part of it.
I know you noticed, sir. How I perk up and pay attention every time you talk about him. How I listen whenever you say that he's a little like me. How I'm hoping that there might be someone else out there who gets it.
I know you're reading my research notes. Do you not see how many times he's in there?
"Good plan, chakra intensive, check once Naruto is back."
"This could work, but it needs Naruto."
"We could save these people if we had Naruto."
Do you think all those are lies? That I'm trying to throw you off the trail?
...
Do you trust me? I need you to trust me. We still need to save the world together.
Its true. Its so true that it burns at his eyes, threatening tears. Hazou clears his mouth and starts to raise his head to speak.
Except it isn't all the truth. The injustice, the anger is still there. It stops his gaze from meeting Jiraiya's.
He has to say something. Anything.
Speeches, rants, apologies, tears, CCNJ, and incoherent screams all flash in and out, passing through his mind. They're all exactly right. They're all completely wrong.
Hazou steels himself to say something, anything, to somehow convey how angry, hurt, and sad he is to a man who could detect twenty years of plotting from how someone met his eyes.
Hazou opens his mouth...
And closes it.
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- Location
- NY
I highly doubt J will miss the gyoza reference, but you are right that if the ANBU are compromised we have far bigger problems than this letter.
"The times in which we are living have just become more interesting."
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
Time for a step-by-step analysis of the letter to see if it meets fae court standards of truthfulness:
So far so good, assuming it was Ami who wrote this.
We did call it a date, and it meaning a lot to Ami is subjective so I'm sure there's a perspective where that passes muster.
Arguably subjective, but I think Ami can make the case that she genuinely believes these things about Hazou.
Subjective. The implications are potentially true, but it's more likely that it's true by virtue of there being plenty of nuanced emotions, emotion sets, and emotion permutations that sufficiently rigorous introspection could reveal one of those.
Easily true if Ami's been making plans about us.
Here's the tricky one. After future lines the implication is obviously a marriage offer, but that's not necessarily true so we'll dispense with subtext. Hazou made 'an offer' that was 'largely political' and that 'Jiraiya told us' to do. The best alternative explanation for this is the offer for lunch in the first place. It was a largely political offer (we specifically avoided personal topics, focusing on getting intel for Jiraiya's political endeavors) that Hazou made with Jiraiya's consent and direction.
If this is so, then Ami is also saying that Jiraiya told us to do this 'as part of his efforts to unite the clans of Mist and Leaf, and to secure support for his own new clan', and it might sound like a bit of a stretch but Hazou making friendly contact with Ami does qualify as this. It's an amicable personal connection between Leaf's Goketsu and Mist's Mori that may eventually be used to help breed good sentiment between villages and solidify the status of the Goketsu.
Moving on:
If we're really talking about an offer for lunch then this is a non-issue, if a little melodramatic.
You don't say.
I think I just got whiplash from how quickly the topic went from an offer for lunch to marriage and love
. And yet, if you disconnect this sentence from the ones that came before it there really isn't a lie here necessarily. Even if Ami feels no romantic affection towards us she can still be 'anxious' to marry us if it is the only way to fulfill one or more major goals of hers, like reconnecting with Keiko or advancing her goals of world domination.A bit of tricky wording here, Ami doesn't specify exactly in what way she thinks she's coming to love to Hazou, so she has a remarkable amount of wiggle room. A zero quantity of love (or relatively miniscule, at least) is still 'a way' that Ami could be talking about.
This line's explicitly about marriage, but it's not explicitly about love or romance. If Ami does seek to marry us for ulterior motives, then this is what she obviously intends.
Ami is enthusiastic about world domination and her other main goals and stuff. It checks out.
Once again, this works as long as Ami was the one who wrote this.
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- Location
- Under a Rock
@eaglejarl the threadmark says part 1. Part 2 seems like it would be Jiraiya or Keiko. I don't think I can do Jiraiya's voice well enough for his half, and I know I can't do Keiko's. So unless you know something I don't...
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
Good analysis, @Inferno Vulpix. It's nice that we've established that Ami isn't not a fae.
Did you not notice yet that Ami and mood whiplashes go hand in hand? And that the Fourth Wall offers no protection against her?I think I just got whiplash from how quickly the topic went from an offer for lunch to marriage and love
- Location
- Somewhere over the rainbow
oh god that's a horrifying thought
our hivemind abilities will mean that we might have a greater resistance to repeated exposure
but it means we're going to be subjected to this ride for the next long while
mr. bones i want off
Omake: Better Left Unsaid, Part 2
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Jiraiya studied him carefully. "Say it."
"Sir?"
"I could see the speech writing itself across your face. Maybe more than one. Then you sat on them...which was good. Shows you're developing politically. So go ahead."
"It's fine."
Jiraiya crossed his ankles casually, not looking away. "No harm, no foul. I'd rather hear it now, rude and raw, than have it spew poison later."
Hazō's jaw worked without him telling it to, chewing the words to bits before they could vomit forth in a surging wave of rage and pain. Once they were crushed small enough, he allowed them to come out in a measured trickle.
"It...bothers me that you would suggest I might betray you like that," he said at last. "That I might betray Naruto. What the f--" He bit down hard, cutting the words in half, and took a breath. "What have I ever done that would suggest anything less than complete loyalty? What have I ever not done? There's--" Another pause. "I think I've given exemplary service. As have all of my team. My family. Which I thought you were part of, but apparently you don't think so."
Jiraiya held his gaze for a moment, then nodded. "Fair."
Hazō said nothing, but he didn't look away.
Jiraiya sighed and rubbed his face. "It's reasonable for you to be angry, but I'm not going to apologize." He shook his head in disgust that seemed more inwardly directed than anything else.
"Hazō, I've been a ninja for more than forty years, and the Leaf spymaster for the majority of it. Shoot, I've been the Leaf spymaster since before your mother was born." He chuckled. "I think. I don't actually remember how old your mother is. Maybe she was playing with Baby's First Kunai when I took the job." He chuckled, the sound hollow. "Do you know what the job of a spymaster is?"
"No."
"The job of a spymaster is to protect the village. The main way you do that is to betray people. You make friends so that you can twist those friendships in order to put people on a string, turn them into assets. You sacrifice those assets whenever it provides a sufficient tactical advantage. You spend every minute of every day figuring out how to break the security of everyone around you, and imagining all the ways that your own security could be broken. You're constantly thinking about the fact that no security is impenetrable, which means that someday yours is going to be broken...and that when that happens, people you care about are going to die.
"Then there's the everyday life. There has literally not been a single day in the last twenty years that I haven't spotted someone tailing me. Some of those sightings were even real.
"There's an attempt on my life...." He paused, thinking. "Probably every six weeks or so. After the first five years they stopped sending hitters and looked for alternatives. One time, back when I still used servants, Cloud infected the daughter of my maid with spotted pox. It's got a fairly long incubation period before symptoms show, so the idea was that the daughter would give it to the mother who would give it to me, all before anyone knew what was happening.
"I've had deathweaver spiders in my chamberpot, black rope snakes in my bed...I've been poisoned seven times; the first two, Tsunade saved me. Since then I've kept a variety of antidotes on me at all times. I didn't have an antidote for one of the poisons, but fortunately I didn't get a strong enough dose to actually kill me. I was hallucinating nightmares for seventy-two hours then puking constantly and shitting blood for five weeks. I lost nineteen pounds, looked like a skeleton, but I lived."
He was no longer looking at Hazō; his head lay back against the wall, eyes staring up through the rock to somewhere far off in the halls of memory. "Every time I bed a woman, I check to see if she's got a knife under her pillow or musculature that suggests combat training. I don't bathe without a Toad standing guard, because there isn't a single human being that I trust for that job. I've lost literally everyone I've ever been close to -- Minato died, Oro ran off, Sunny hates me, Sensei died, Naruto was taken, pretty much everyone I went to the Academy with or served with died or is crippled or hates my guts because I put the mission ahead of them."
He looked back at Hazō with eyes that were empty and sad. "So yes, you're justified to be angry, but I'm not going to apologize. You're angry because you killed a boatful of civilians in service to Leaf and that weighs on you. I have literally waded through rivers of blood. I have done things that.... I have done things. For decades, I have seen everyone do something wrong, have some secret shame that got leveraged against them -- usually just in a small way, but sometimes not. Everyone has weaknesses and can be turned. So yes, I don't trust easily."
He thumped his head on the wall lightly and rubbed at his eyes for a moment. When he spoke, he was looking down at his hands, studying them as though they were the most fascinating thing ever, and his voice was quiet.
"No matter what you think, I actually do trust you...as much as I trust anyone, I guess. Oh, I'm aware of your issues with OPSEC and I certainly wouldn't give you information you didn't need to have, but that's true of everyone. You know how you know that I trust you? Because I warned you. I don't warn people that I actually believe to be a threat, I just clean them away.
"I don't trust, Hazō. I don't trust anyone, because anyone can be turned. And anyone can make a mistake. Better for you to be afraid, constantly thinking about your every word and action because you know that there's a threat hanging over your head. Much better that you're afraid than thinking that you're safe and so you don't need to worry. In our business, fear keeps you safe. Safety makes you sloppy, makes you make mistakes.
"You've made mistakes before, just like every young ninja. For most people, that's not a big deal -- their mistakes endanger them, maybe their teammates. Your mistake in Hot Springs nearly caused a war and it did rewrite the balance of power across the continent. Now you're the son and trusted agent of the Hokage, as well as a sealmaster of Leaf and a person who regularly interacts with clan heirs and high-clearance senior officials. You can't afford mistakes anymore, so you need to be afraid, constantly."
He sighed and rolled his head down so he could see Hazō again. "Don't screw up, please. I really want to have a family."
Hazō could find no words in reply, so he settled for nodding.
- Location
- Pacific standard
Oh man those Omakes were beautiful. I got shivers from J's speech.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
You know, I don't recall Jiraiya ever decrying Kagome's paranoia, as frustrated as he might be at it, at times. Perhaps that's why.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
!!
Inasmuch as this is an omake and not canon, this is still one of the few details we have from Jiraiya about Orochimaru. It's not "Oro betrayed us", it's "Oro ran off".
OMAKE: Better Left Unsaid, Part 3
- Location
- CA
Hazō could find no words in reply. The anger had drained away, replaced with a familiar exhausted frustration, the sense that the world was so simple and yet people always made it so ridiculously complicated.
For a second, he considered simply nodding, and yet--
'You need to be afraid, constantly.'
"Sir." He spoke slowly. "In your experience, in the field, in politics, in relationships... Do people usually make very good decisions, when they're always afraid?"
Jiraiya's eyes sharpened, just as Hazō had expected. This, a part of him had already realized, was part of the heart of his adoptive father: one of the keys to everything about him, one of the little axioms he'd rarely ever think to question. It was rare at all that people would talk about something kept so close to the chest, and it was rarer still that they'd even so much as consider changing their minds.
But 'rarely' wasn't 'never.' Even if this didn't make a difference--what did it say about his convictions, if he was afraid of speaking out even among those who had bared their own hearts to him?
"I know I've barely climbed my way out of the holes I've fallen into, most of my own volition. I may not be green, not entirely, but I know I'm not one-tenth the ninja you are. And yet..." He sighed. "Sir, saving the world isn't hard, because it's people that are the problem. Every time you want to help a stranger, you have to work your way past their defenses first... And the more history piles up, the more we assume the sins of those before us before we even meet each other, the higher those walls rise up between us. And the first brick in that wall is always fear, and so are nine-tenths of the bricks that follow after. And even if those walls keep us safe, they bound the world. Eventually, we have to leave those walls, or else we'll die all the same. When is that? How much of a wall can we afford, now or then? And what can we do to convince people to leave the walls behind us?"
He held up his hands, palms up, in a gesture of helplessness.
"I don't know the answers. I don't know how much fear is safe, and how much fear makes you slap away hands that only want to help. But I can't be afraid all the time, sir, I can't. The world can't afford that. The moment I let fear guide me, every word of Uplift becomes a lie." He met Jiraiya's eyes. "I'll bow to your experience, sir. Right now, I don't know enough of the history, and so I can't see all the path ahead or behind. I have to learn. But I want to leave this world a better place than I entered it, once I have the power to stand somewhere like you've stood. Not just for my family, and not just for Leaf. I just..."
He sighed, staring out across a distance that felt so short, and yet so far. Jiraiya was looking at him like a stupid kid, and he knew it, and he felt like a stupid kid. But what did it mean to be wise in the ways of the world, when all the world was mad?
"There has to be something better than this, sir. There has to be. If there isn't, then what's the point of any of our power?"
- Location
- Europe
[x] Action Plan: Everything Is Still Going According To Our Plans Leaving Us In Complete Control Of The Situation With No Reasons To Worry
