Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

[Raxner]

Nope. Sure, there are pennies, but there have also been several large pots of gold. Kagome made skywalkers, we literally couldn't roll high enough to do it on our own. Kagome is also the only living seal master who can make his directional explosives.

Also, Kagome is family. You don't abandon family for "being a liability". Even ignoring characterization and story issues, suddenly leaving family out in the cold is a clear sign to the rest of your family that they had better perform or they are getting the boot too. Suddenly your family can't trust each other. At that point, you aren't really a family any more.

Now of course, that doesn't mean an itchy trigger finger isn't a real and serious problem that will bite us if we don't address it. But we need to do things like social training. Level his empathy so that he knows who is trying to attack him and who isn't. Providing a safe space where he can talk about his issues. Having him make more friends. Offering to go with him whenever he is worried he might have a panic attack.

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About skywalkers and directional explosives, assuming he comes back from the Showdown at the OK Corral, Jiraiya can do anything seal-related that Kagome can do. Sure, Kagome was indispensable once. He isn't indispensable now.

About family, if we're going to be sentimental, then we're not playing well enough to survive in ninja-land. Further, there's a difference between "Kagome was an explosive seal with a random-length fuse mechanism" and "Publish or perish." Besides, surely there must be some way to retire Kagome, render him no longer dangerous, without killing him.

Can we level Kagome's empathy or do all those other lovely things? He's an NPC, no matter how important he may be to us. As for "go with him when he is worried..." what about when he's not worried? Or what about when we're asleep, or just unable to respond in the roughly 1/10 of a second between "Kagome notices someone making an unexpected movement" and "Kagome splats five children across three city blocks?"

@faflec, would you please remind me--what was the name of the commanding officer that he very nearly splatted (and in the original version actually did splat) because we were unable to predict his literally insane response pattern?

 

[Twinnstars]

"Providing a safe space where he can talk about his issues. Having him make more friends. Offering to go with him whenever he is worried he might have a panic attack."

This might be a way for us to break mari out of her shell. Have her use and improve on her ?sweet kiss? Genjutsu (I think thats its name). If she has so much red in her ledger convince her to add black using her bullshit op jonin powers.

Magic. Therapist.

"Fine Mari. You're a master at deception and making people think whatever you want. Fine. Then what if you devoted yourself to making people happier? Isn't it sad that we can catagorize people as having 'a bad case of being a jonin'?

I know you think you can't be trusted with that power over another person, but I think you're missing something. People are selfish, and they don't want to feel guilt. It's obvious to ***kagome*** that you can't escape your guilt.

You would do your damn best helping other people, if only for your own peace of mind.

So get up, and be a selfish bitch."

 

[Cariyaga]

"Providing a safe space where he can talk about his issues. Having him make more friends. Offering to go with him whenever he is worried he might have a panic attack."

This might be a way for us to break mari out of her shell. Have her use and improve on her ?sweet kiss? Genjutsu (I think thats its name). If she has so much red in her ledger convince her to add black using her bullshit op jonin powers.

Magic. Therapist.

"Fine Mari. You're a master at deception and making people think whatever you want. Fine. Then what if you devoted yourself to making people happier? Isn't it sad that we can catagorize people as having 'a bad case of being a jonin'?

I know you think you can't be trusted with that power over another person, but I think you're missing something. People are selfish, and they don't want to feel guilt. It's obvious to ***kagome*** that you can't escape your guilt.

You would do your damn best helping other people, if only for your own peace of mind.

So get up, and be a selfish bitch."

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I think our best bet on getting Mari in shape is to ask Akane. Assuming she's alive.

 

[faflec]

@faflec, would you please remind me--what was the name of the commanding officer that he very nearly splatted (and in the original version actually did splat) because we were unable to predict his literally insane response pattern?

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Yes. Minami.

 

[firestorm440]

Also, Kagome is family. You don't abandon family for "being a liability". Even ignoring characterization and story issues, suddenly leaving family out in the cold is a clear sign to the rest of your family that they had better perform or they are getting the boot too. Suddenly your family can't trust each other. At that point, you aren't really a family any more.

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I mean, there's liabilities, and then there's existential threats.

 

[Cariyaga]

About family, if we're going to be sentimental, then we're not playing well enough to survive in ninja-land. Further, there's a difference between "Kagome was an explosive seal with a random-length fuse mechanism" and "Publish or perish." Besides, surely there must be some way to retire Kagome, render him no longer dangerous, without killing him.

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While sentimentality plays into it, there's more to it than that. Being willing to support your clan members even when they do stupid shit is a lot of what holds clans together as a whole. If we want to play ball with other major clans, then we must support our clan members, otherwise they will see that they can pick us apart one by one.

 

[TaliesinSkye]

And what if that person, upon thoroughly inspecting Mari, decides "Yup, you're really worthless and irredeemably evil?"

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Whatever Mari did, she feels profound remorse and guilt now. Accordingly, she can't possibly be irredeemable. The people who are don't feel that they've done anything wrong.

 

[Raxner]

Whatever Mari did, she feels profound remorse and guilt now. Accordingly, she can't possibly be irredeemable. The people who are don't feel that they've done anything wrong.

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That's a good point, and I personally agree with you. I am not 100% confident that any arbitrary Yamanaka will agree with you.

I think that if we're going to give Yamanaka Whoever access to Mari's brain, we need to have a contingency plan in place in case said Yamanaka confirms Mari's current self-perception.

Yes. Minami.

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Thank you, @faflec.

Kagome is deeply dangerous. He already murdered/tried to murder a commanding officer of ours on one occasion. How do we make sure that this doesn't happen again, especially now that Hazo is acting (and will perhaps be permanent) Clan Head? I fully understand that supporting our clan is important. Part of supporting our clan is not arbitrarily destroying clan members. Part of supporting our clan is making sure that disturbed and dangerous (even by ninja standards) clan members don't destroy the clan. Can we find something that upholds both of those responsibilities?

I'm thinking that we should look to give Kagome an isolated (very isolated) research lab where he can investigate seals with all the safety protocols he can think of, but where he will not come into contact with people that he is not comfortable with (that is, members of Team Uplift).

 

[TaliesinSkye]

That's a good point, and I personally agree with you. I am not 100% confident that any arbitrary Yamanaka will agree with you.

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Nearly all of the awful stuff over her career was because she'd been given a mission to perform and had to do it, right? I don't think she was one of those ninja who went around creatively interpreting her orders to find ways to be extra cruel.

I think a ninja would understand that stuff being the responsibility of the person giving the orders, since it wasn't like she could refuse.

 

[Raxner]

Nearly all of the awful stuff over her career was because she'd been given a mission to perform and had to do it, right? I don't think she was one of those ninja who went around creatively interpreting her orders to find ways to be extra cruel.

I think a ninja would understand that stuff being the responsibility of the person giving the orders, since it wasn't like she could refuse.

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If that were the case, Hana would not have hated her so deeply. Hana's also a ninja of the Mist, she's also done terrible things because orders.

As I recall, Hana hated her because she is personally decadent (which is indisputably true), because she was part of the core team planning Shikagami's Village (which is true by her admission), because she irrevocably altered Hazo's life (and those of many others) by getting them assigned to the mission where they would inevitably become missing-nin or dead, and because she has frequently (read: continuously) used her social-spec skills to manipulate even teammates to do dangerous things for her benefit (like Hazo becoming a sealing apprentice when he was only a genin).

To boil it down to essentials: Because Mari took away Hana's son, risked his life, and usurped Hana's place in it. As a father, I sympathize with Hana. If someone did that to my family, you can be sure I would do everything possible to get my child back and destroy the kidnapper.

 

[TaliesinSkye]

If that were the case, Hana would not have hated her so deeply. Hana's also a ninja of the Mist, she's also done terrible things because orders.

As I recall, Hana hated her because she is personally decadent (which is indisputably true), because she was part of the core team planning Shikagami's Village (which is true by her admission), because she irrevocably altered Hazo's life (and those of many others) by getting them assigned to the mission where they would inevitably become missing-nin or dead, and because she has frequently (read: continuously) used her social-spec skills to manipulate even teammates to do dangerous things for her benefit (like Hazo becoming a sealing apprentice when he was only a genin).

To boil it down to essentials: Because Mari took away Hana's son, risked his life, and usurped Hana's place in it. As a father, I sympathize with Hana. If someone did that to my family, you can be sure I would do everything possible to get my child back and destroy the kidnapper.

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That's understandable. I do think Hana is more moral than most ninja, more straightforward and less treacherous. Her standards might be a bit high compared to many. (Or most ninja's are too low, really.) If Hana has a problem, it is probably that she is too honest and honorable to fit ninja life entirely well.

In any event, Hana's personal investment means she's too close to the issue to make a detached judgment. Parents are basically programmed to irrational violence and hatred toward anyone who is a threat to their kids. While lying to a whole bunch of people, including children, taking them away from their families and putting them in mortal danger to make her desire to escape from Mist and Yagura more likely to succeed is pretty bad, I'm not really seeing the kind of history of monstrousness that would actually inspire Hana's reaction in most ninja who weren't Hana. That'd take something like gleefully skinning people alive at every opportunity because that's how she got her jollies or something. The sort of stuff that isn't just expected behavior among ninja, like using your social skills to persuade people to do stuff for you. (Jiraiya and the other socially skilled ninja do that constantly to everybody.)

 

[Raxner]

That's understandable. I do think Hana is more moral than most ninja, more straightforward and less treacherous. Her standards might be a bit high compared to many. (Or most ninja's are too low, really.) If Hana has a problem, it is probably that she is too honest and honorable to fit ninja life entirely well.

In any event, Hana's personal investment means she's too close to the issue to make a detached judgment. Parents are basically programmed to irrational violence and hatred toward anyone who is a threat to their kids. While lying to a whole bunch of people, including children, taking them away from their families and putting them in mortal danger to make her desire to escape from Mist and Yagura more likely to succeed is pretty bad, I'm not really seeing the kind of history of monstrousness that would actually inspire Hana's reaction in most ninja who weren't Hana. That'd take something like gleefully skinning people alive at every opportunity because that's how she got her jollies or something. The sort of stuff that isn't just expected behavior among ninja, like using your social skills to persuade people to do stuff for you. (Jiraiya and the other socially skilled ninja do that constantly to everybody.)

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Again, I tend to agree with you, especially when we consider that Mari genuinely is deeply remorseful now. She deserves punishment, but not destruction. I still think the Plan Yamanaka needs a contingency plan in case Yamanaka doesn't say what we want him/her to say.

BTW, I would say that the violence that parents inherently want to inflict on people that threaten or harm their children is not irrational, though it is extreme. It's very rational. It's a deterrent--if you touch my children, I will make sure that you regret it.

 

[TaliesinSkye]

Again, I tend to agree with you, especially when we consider that Mari genuinely is deeply remorseful now. She deserves punishment, but not destruction. I still think the Plan Yamanaka needs a contingency plan in case Yamanaka doesn't say what we want him/her to say.

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Maybe it's hard for us to judge because we didn't grow up in ninja culture ourselves. Hazou might know better than we do where Mari's actions fall on the ninja morality scale.

I suppose we could ask a prospective mind reader what they think about the stuff we know Mari did before letting them actually read her mind.

BTW, I would say that the violence that parents inherently want to inflict on people that threaten or harm their children is not irrational, though it is extreme. It's very rational. It's a deterrent--if you touch my children, I will make sure that regret it.

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It's...sometimes beneficial, sometimes counterproductive, in the modern era. It certainly evolved for very good reasons. I suppose I meant irrational in the sense that it doesn't care whether violence is the best solution or not, the instinct just wants to commit violence. It is unthinking.

 

[Raxner]

It's...sometimes rational, sometimes counterproductive, in the modern era. It certainly evolved for very good reasons.

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Sure. In the modern era, we often have to restrain our instincts for the good of society generally. It's called civilization. Doesn't mean that the instincts are irrational, just that they're inappropriate to current circumstances.

The difference between a wild animal and a civilized man is simply that the civilized man can intelligently judge whether or not he should act on his instincts.

 

[Lord Marshal]

About family, if we're going to be sentimental, then we're not playing well enough to survive in ninja-land. Further, there's a difference between "Kagome was an explosive seal with a random-length fuse mechanism" and "Publish or perish." Besides, surely there must be some way to retire Kagome, render him no longer dangerous, without killing him.

Click to shrink...

I'm thinking that we should look to give Kagome an isolated (very isolated) research lab where he can investigate seals with all the safety protocols he can think of, but where he will not come into contact with people that he is not comfortable with (that is, members of Team Uplift).

Click to shrink...

You know the agency problems Hazou had, the reason Why Akane left Hazou?
These right here are that.
Hazou said it clearly the clan was made to make us safe, not the opposite.
Treating Kagome and anyone else as a variable will bite us in the ass, like it did with Akane, or Keiko, or everytime we tried to move our family like pawns to optimize them.
So, we want to do something? Let's talk to Kagome about and try to find a solution.
Seriously, THIS is exactly why we don't trust Jiraiya!

 

[Raxner]

You know the agency problems Hazou had, the reason Why Akane left Hazou?
These right here are that.
Hazou said it clearly the clan was made to make us safe, not the opposite.
Treating Kagome and anyone else as a variable will bite us in the ass, like it did with Akane, or Keiko, or everytime we tried to move our family like pawns to optimize them.
So, we want to do something? Let's talk to Kagome about and try to find a solution.
Seriously, THIS is exactly why we don't trust Jiraiya!

Click to shrink...

Do you know what's the difference between a genin teammate and a Clan Head? It's the Clan Head's job to keep the clan safe. It is his job to figure out how to use the strengths and minimize the weaknesses of the clan members in order to keep the clan alive. Be diplomatic? Sure. Allow Kagome to continue posing an existential threat to the Clan, to the actual physical lives of its members? No.

You can be a good family guy or you can be a good clan leader. You can't really be both.

 

[MrCogmor]

We are not killing Kagome because he might somehow lose the restraint we have taught him and become a political inconvenience. The very idea is absurd on multiple levels. It isn't pragmatic, moral, or in character.

 

[Lailoken]

Could you...clarify this? I'm reading this as "Did Hazou talk to anyone about Hana hating Mari as opposed to Hana's behavior towards Mari"?

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Boom squish.

Seriously, while there's no doubt that he's hugely entertaining as a character, is there really any debate about the fact that he's a liability to the Goketsu and to anyone else that he associates with? Sooner or later he's going to reflex-squish the wrong someone (or several someones) and anyone that has connections to him is going to pay the price. Keeping him around is a perfect example of collecting pennies on the highway.

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He doesn't even need to. Remember Mia? Exactly.

Nearly all of the awful stuff over her career was because she'd been given a mission to perform and had to do it, right? I don't think she was one of those ninja who went around creatively interpreting her orders to find ways to be extra cruel.

I think a ninja would understand that stuff being the responsibility of the person giving the orders, since it wasn't like she could refuse.

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No. She enjoyed her work and did awful things to people in her own village. Any plan which starts from the assumption that she is some innocent flower bent by malevolent foreign winds is doomed to failure.

Again, I tend to agree with you, especially when we consider that Mari genuinely is deeply remorseful now. She deserves punishment, but not destruction. I still think the Plan Yamanaka needs a contingency plan in case Yamanaka doesn't say what we want him/her to say.

BTW, I would say that the violence that parents inherently want to inflict on people that threaten or harm their children is not irrational, though it is extreme. It's very rational. It's a deterrent--if you touch my children, I will make sure that you regret it.

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Again, she's shown zero indication of actual remorse. She hates what her actions imply about her character. That is not the same thing.

 

[Raxner]

We are not killing Kagome because he might somehow lose the restraint we have taught him and become a political inconvenience. The very idea is absurd on multiple levels. It isn't pragmatic, moral, or in character.

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Allow Kagome to continue posing an existential threat to the Clan, to the actual physical lives of its members? No.

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I'm thinking that we should look to give Kagome an isolated (very isolated) research lab where he can investigate seals with all the safety protocols he can think of, but where he will not come into contact with people that he is not comfortable with (that is, members of Team Uplift).

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I've addressed your points, I think.

 

[18scsc]

@Raxner I would've been more on board with your point, not to the full extent you are, but more on board. If not for the recent interludes thatve shown Kagome can exercise SOME measure or restraint and not just blow people up. Besides Kagome seemed to feel really guilty and upset when we lectured him on the fact that killing Minami would've hurt the clan more than help us.

You make a good point in that there's an inherent trade-off in that one can't be a good family man whilist also being a good clan leader, but the entire ethos of this thread throughout the vast majority of the quest has revolved around a willingness to play on hard mode. We've literally always tried to thread the needle between being moral and being effective. It's hard as shit and we've made a ton of notable failures, but I do think out willingness to try has been one of the defining features of this quest. Personally it's core to my enjoyment. Playing as a bloodless realpolitik machine would be boring.

 

[Raxner]

@Raxner I would've been more on board with your point, not to the full extent you are, but more on board. If not for the recent interludes thatve shown Kagome can exercise SOME measure or restraint and not just blow people up. Besides Kagome seemed to feel really guilty and upset when we lectured him on the fact that killing Minami would've hurt the clan more than help us.

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That is a good point, and I agree that, based on his recent behavior, the risk is lower than it otherwise might be. I still think that the risk is unacceptably high. The problem here is that he's not rational. He's mentally unstable. I don't doubt his regret over the Minami Incident. I doubt that it will restrain him the next time his mental illness manifests.

You make a good point in that there's an inherent trade-off in that one can't be a good family man whilist also being a good clan leader, but the entire ethos of this thread throughout the vast majority of the quest has revolved around a willingness to play on hard mode. We've literally always tried to thread the needle between being moral and being effective. It's hard as shit and we've made a ton of notable failures, but I do think out willingness to try has been one of the defining features of this quest. Personally it's core to my enjoyment. Playing as a bloodless realpolitik machine would be boring.

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I think that my suggestion of giving Kagome a research facility where he can interact only with people that he's comfortable with and where he can research seals with all the safety protocols he can imagine achieves that threading of the needle. It safeguards the clan, and it does so in a way which seems likely to make Kagome happier than he is now.

I'm not arguing against being moral. I'm arguing for safeguarding Clan Goketsu from a known existential threat.

I do think that ignoring the possibility that he may murder one or more innocent people (perhaps children) in a fit of panic entails a certain degree of moral compromise, quite independent of its effect upon the clan. Put otherwise: sentimental fondness for Kagome is not actually a synonym for morality.

 

[MrCogmor]

That is a good point, and I agree that, based on his recent behavior, the risk is lower than it otherwise might be. I still think that the risk is unacceptably high. The problem here is that he's not rational. He's mentally unstable. I don't doubt his regret over the Minami Incident. I doubt that it will restrain him the next time his mental illness manifests.

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He is emotionally damaged not mentally unstable. He doesn't get violent fits out of nowhere. He is just liable to overreact to things that he perceives as immediate threats to him and his family. He has learned from his mistakes and will be fine in the village provided he isn't intentionally provoked. We just need to avoid sending him on missions with unfamiliar ninja or making him engage in hostile negotiations with the clans.

 

[Lord Marshal]

Do you know what's the difference between a genin teammate and a Clan Head? It's the Clan Head's job to keep the clan safe. It is his job to figure out how to use the strengths and minimize the weaknesses of the clan members in order to keep the clan alive. Be diplomatic? Sure. Allow Kagome to continue posing an existential threat to the Clan, to the actual physical lives of its members? No.

You can be a good family guy or you can be a good clan leader. You can't really be both.

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As Hazou put it:
"Fuck the clan"
A big part of Hazou's character can be distilled to "protect the ones you care about, fuck the rules".
Thia doesn't means ignoring Kagome problem, but it also doesn't going full tyrant on our family or making their choices for them.
And if someone has a problem with out conduct as a Clan Leader, it can eat our massive amount of explosive.

I mean, aside from the fact that it would be stupid thing, at least in the context is being proposed.
We are two jonin and three chunin, the only way we get out this alive if Jiraya dies is if we are together, like when we were missin-nin, and cooperative.
This right here, would bring a massive crack in our relationship with everyone inside the clan, that is the only real advantage we have.
Seriously, we are five, not an army, bteaking unity now is the best way to get everyone killed.

I repeat, not that it matters, because as Hazou put it
"Fuck the clan"
Goketsu exist for us, not the opposite.

This said, the Kagome problem is greatly exaggerated, he doesn't kill anyone that moves, only people he consider threatening, so civilians are generally save, considering he's a jonin.
The problem is in missions, when pressure is high, but that wouldn't be resolved by your solution,this again doesn't mean we are not going to help him.

 

[Raxner]

The problem is in missions, when pressure is high, but that wouldn't be resolved by your solution,this again doesn't mean we are not going to help him.

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Am I imagining things, or did he just seriously consider murdering an instructor in the Academy? And I thought that the only reason that he didn't murder that instructor is that Honoka begged him not to, and he's putting him through mental torture instead. That strikes me as the kind of thing that could have consequences.

As for "the clan exists for us," that's useless. The clan is us. My concern is not that some abstract Clan Goketsu will lose power and prestige. My concern is that Hazo, Noburi, and Keiko (unprotected by Jiraiya if he doesn't come back) will end up in a kill-box, or forced to go missing-nin again, the next time that their mentally unstable (yes, mentally unstable) jonin seal-master mentor/uncle/clanmate does something like murdering an Academy instructor.

Of course giving him a research facility would solve the issue. All those people that scare him, that provoke the "boom squish stinker" response? He won't see them anymore. He needs to be a research-nin, not a mission-nin. He'll get to happily research seals and not be bothered by scary stinkers that stinkily scare him. Literally the only people in the world that he wants to see are Hazo, Noburi, Keiko, Akane, Mari, and Hokona. That's it. They can come visit him, talk with him, learn from him--while he can have the emotional security that he so desperately needs.

 

[KaGoGoGadgetMe]

Literally the only people in the world that he wants to see are Hazo, Noburi, Keiko, Akane, Mari, and Hokona. That's it.

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I don't know, he seemed pretty chummy with that librarian lady, Grandma Deathglare.