It's something of an extreme measure, but perhaps the best way to help Mari would be to ease her most traumatic memories?

I don't know if the Yamanaka could do something like that, take the emotional sting out of memories or erase them, but it's something worth investigating.

Alternatively, there are several abilities that erase memories in canon. There's even a memory erasing seal, which would be ideal if we could get our hands on it or recreate it.

If that's not an option, Yota can erase memories if he's in Konoha in MfD.

There is Mari's own technique, as a last resort.
 
It's something of an extreme measure, but perhaps the best way to help Mari would be to ease her most traumatic memories?

I don't know if the Yamanaka could do something like that, take the emotional sting out of memories or erase them, but it's something worth investigating.

Alternatively, there are several abilities that erase memories in canon. There's even a memory erasing seal, which would be ideal if we could get our hands on it or recreate it.

If that's not an option, Yota can erase memories if he's in Konoha in MfD.

There is Mari's own technique, as a last resort.

Truth Lost in the Fog deletes happy memories, or so we speculate. That might be a large source of the problem, actually. Mari might be throwing out comparatively large portions of her positive self-image every time she uses it.
 
There's no way to fix Mari except time. We just need to constantly call her when she is lying about herself. Be a friend and help her grow. Suicidal depression isn't something you can fix by being clever. The only thing we can do is help provide the support she needs to grow.
 
Truth Lost in the Fog deletes happy memories, or so we speculate. That might be a large source of the problem, actually. Mari might be throwing out comparatively large portions of her positive self-image every time she uses it.
I wonder if there might be a way to undo the damage. The Yamanaka come to mind again.

Suicidal depression isn't something you can fix by being clever.
Not in the real world, but we do have literal magic to work with here. There might be something. I know I have traumatic memories I would dearly like to erase if I could so that they no longer ran through my head. I'd be a happier person without them.
 
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I'm still with the, "Hand her to Gai and Lee for 12 hours a day and wait for Naruto to get back and punch her into healthy friendship."

Unfortunately, Gai and Lee aren't cleared for this, but perhaps Akane can sub in, even if we have to Weekend at Bernie's it.
 
My intuition is that what Mari likely needs most right now is actually confronting and dealing with her own guilt. In the absence of real therapy, I suppose the next best thing would be a proper confession of her sins, to someone. She needs to put all of it behind her, at least to some extent, and a sense of catharsis provided by confessing everything should be a step towards that.

There's also the fact that she's incredibly self-absorbed, even in her current state. It's all about how she's evil, how she's manipulative, how she's a monster, and so on, with seemingly little reflection on the people she actually hurt in the process. I definitely think the first step towards recovery, for her, should be to properly apologize to the kids and Kagome, which she has yet to do. I feel like she uses self-pity as a kind of defense mechanism, where focusing on how awful she is lets her avoid truly engaging and reflecting on the consequences of her actions. So, confess to all of her manipulations, and apologize.

Since Hazou already came to terms with her killing her uncle, maybe a useful approach would be to schedule sessions where he just listens while she describes all the awful things she thinks she's done? I really don't think he's a very good choice for this, but I also don't see better alternatives. This way, we'd at least get to prime him emotionally not to fuck it up too badly.
 
I'm still with the, "Hand her to Gai and Lee for 12 hours a day and wait for Naruto to get back and punch her into healthy friendship."

Unfortunately, Gai and Lee aren't cleared for this, but perhaps Akane can sub in, even if we have to Weekend at Bernie's it.

Gai is probably going to Nagi...and punch Madara in his face.

No worries then, everything will be fine.
 
Uh, if Hazou doesn't hold himself in contempt then he's in denial. We are like a third of the way responsible for bear fascists slaughtering and enslaving a nation of bird people. The 'Team Uplift' moniker is absolute gallows humor at this point. He needs to do better. I don't know that we will ever be able to make up for what happened to the Condor nation, but I think we owe it to them to try.

I'm not saying, 'kill Inoue'. I'm saying that her feeling bad because she's done evil things is appropriate, and not something we need to 'fix'. She'll get through it or she won't. Honestly, if we decide to share in her wallowing a bit, maybe vow to not invent anymore ways of murder (no matter how cool they are) until we trust the people who'd be in charge of how they are used, I wouldn't hate it.
I'd just like to get something out of the way here:

I don't regret our deals with the Pangolins. Trading Skytowers to them in exchange for massive amounts of gold was, and still is, the right thing to do, and I would repeat the deal if we were in a position to rewind time and make it again.

The gold that we've gotten from the Pangolins has been instrumental in Konoha's search for Akatsuki and Jiraiya's position as Hokage, both of which are extremely necessary for us to actually uplift the world. We can't uplift jack if Akatsuki wins, and if Jiraiya loses the hat then we'll get shunted to some outpost on the border at best. If we actually care about Uplift and aren't just virtue signaling about it when there aren't any challenges, we flat-out need the money.

Yes, the deal has already caused severe negative consequences already. The Condors were enslaved (bad!), and their culture was wiped out (eh). The stakes of Uplift are the literal survival of the human species, the X-risk of the current paradigm and the danger of reaching a point where there will never be any hope for a better future ever because everyone is dead.

If you're not willing to make sacrifices to achieve your goals, you don't really want them in the first place. If Hazou's not willing to get his hands a little dirty to advance Uplift, then everything he's said about Uplift was just empty air, only to be followed when convenient. I refuse to take seriously the sanctimonious attitude that Hazou has to be a perfect shonen messiah who never does anything wrong ever in order for Uplift to be a meaningful goal. If anything, I would lose my respect in Hazou's talk of Uplift if we found out he expected to accomplish it with no-one dying, a perfect fairy tale happy ending.


Sorry about how aggressive that all was, but I strongly disagreed with the ideas of your post and wanted to make it really clear how I felt about the matter. To be clear, I don't like at all how the deal was necessary, and I'm fully on board with the initiative to gain economic freedom from the Pangolins and stop their Seventh Path tyranny, but making the deal in the first place is not a decision I regret, nor do I think it invalidates Hazou's goals and ideology.
 
I'd just like to get something out of the way here:

I don't regret our deals with the Pangolins. Trading Skytowers to them in exchange for massive amounts of gold was, and still is, the right thing to do, and I would repeat the deal if we were in a position to rewind time and make it again.

The gold that we've gotten from the Pangolins has been instrumental in Konoha's search for Akatsuki and Jiraiya's position as Hokage, both of which are extremely necessary for us to actually uplift the world. We can't uplift jack if Akatsuki wins, and if Jiraiya loses the hat then we'll get shunted to some outpost on the border at best. If we actually care about Uplift and aren't just virtue signaling about it when there aren't any challenges, we flat-out need the money.

Yes, the deal has already caused severe negative consequences already. The Condors were enslaved (bad!), and their culture was wiped out (eh). The stakes of Uplift are the literal survival of the human species, the X-risk of the current paradigm and the danger of reaching a point where there will never be any hope for a better future ever because everyone is dead.

If you're not willing to make sacrifices to achieve your goals, you don't really want them in the first place. If Hazou's not willing to get his hands a little dirty to advance Uplift, then everything he's said about Uplift was just empty air, only to be followed when convenient. I refuse to take seriously the sanctimonious attitude that Hazou has to be a perfect shonen messiah who never does anything wrong ever in order for Uplift to be a meaningful goal. If anything, I would lose my respect in Hazou's talk of Uplift if we found out he expected to accomplish it with no-one dying, a perfect fairy tale happy ending.


Sorry about how aggressive that all was, but I strongly disagreed with the ideas of your post and wanted to make it really clear how I felt about the matter. To be clear, I don't like at all how the deal was necessary, and I'm fully on board with the initiative to gain economic freedom from the Pangolins and stop their Seventh Path tyranny, but making the deal in the first place is not a decision I regret, nor do I think it invalidates Hazou's goals and ideology.

I'm not mad man, we clearly disagree passionately, that's fine, presumably our votes will cancel one another out.

Like, I can't exactly refute that you are the hard guy who makes hard choices. Maybe you are right, the only way to help people might be to enslave other people. You'll have to do it with me pulling the other direction every step of the way though.
 
So now that we've all checked off the "Monthly Pangolin Morality Debate" and "Weaponize a background detail from the current chapter" boxes on the MfD to-do list, how about we move on to "Brainstorming about actionable plots for the next in-character month or so ( preferably with minimal morality and preference conflicts), conditioning on several most probable outcomes of (INSERT BIG CURRENT EVENT HAPPENING THAT WE ABSOLUTELY MUST AWAIT THE RESULTS OF) instead of succumbing to decision paralysis as a result of the massive implications that (INSERT BIG CURRENT EVENT HAPPENING THAT WE ABSOLUTELY MUST AWAIT THE RESULTS OF) assuredly has on our plots." ?
 
I'd just like to get something out of the way here:

I don't regret our deals with the Pangolins. Trading Skytowers to them in exchange for massive amounts of gold was, and still is, the right thing to do, and I would repeat the deal if we were in a position to rewind time and make it again.

The gold that we've gotten from the Pangolins has been instrumental in Konoha's search for Akatsuki and Jiraiya's position as Hokage, both of which are extremely necessary for us to actually uplift the world. We can't uplift jack if Akatsuki wins, and if Jiraiya loses the hat then we'll get shunted to some outpost on the border at best. If we actually care about Uplift and aren't just virtue signaling about it when there aren't any challenges, we flat-out need the money.

Yes, the deal has already caused severe negative consequences already. The Condors were enslaved (bad!), and their culture was wiped out (eh). The stakes of Uplift are the literal survival of the human species, the X-risk of the current paradigm and the danger of reaching a point where there will never be any hope for a better future ever because everyone is dead.

If you're not willing to make sacrifices to achieve your goals, you don't really want them in the first place. If Hazou's not willing to get his hands a little dirty to advance Uplift, then everything he's said about Uplift was just empty air, only to be followed when convenient. I refuse to take seriously the sanctimonious attitude that Hazou has to be a perfect shonen messiah who never does anything wrong ever in order for Uplift to be a meaningful goal. If anything, I would lose my respect in Hazou's talk of Uplift if we found out he expected to accomplish it with no-one dying, a perfect fairy tale happy ending.


Sorry about how aggressive that all was, but I strongly disagreed with the ideas of your post and wanted to make it really clear how I felt about the matter. To be clear, I don't like at all how the deal was necessary, and I'm fully on board with the initiative to gain economic freedom from the Pangolins and stop their Seventh Path tyranny, but making the deal in the first place is not a decision I regret, nor do I think it invalidates Hazou's goals and ideology.

I kind of agree, with my usual caveat that our ends only justify our means if we can actually make real progress towards said ends. "We'll eventually save the world" is a justification for many things, but only if you actually do get around to saving the world, eventually.

We've made some serious sacrifices to achieve a position where we can implement our Uplift ideas effectively. But until we actually start doing that, the justification rings hollow to me. In particular when I see attempts to push our ledger even more into the red, with even more promises of future utopias.

The fact that the people on the Sunset Racer and the Condors suffered to get us here, should be a strong motivation to start using our ill-gotten capital for the betterment of mankind. We've gotten derailed by various fires along the way, but I, for one, am slowly losing patience with this status quo. I'm probably even going to vote for blunt instruments like spending our own money to sponsor Till'n'Fills at this point, just to get something going.
 
So now that we've all checked off the "Monthly Pangolin Morality Debate" and "Weaponize a background detail from the current chapter" boxes on the MfD to-do list, how about we move on to "Brainstorming about actionable plots for the next in-character month or so ( preferably with minimal morality and preference conflicts), conditioning on several most probable outcomes of (INSERT BIG CURRENT EVENT HAPPENING THAT WE ABSOLUTELY MUST AWAIT THE RESULTS OF) instead of succumbing to decision paralysis as a result of the massive implications that (INSERT BIG CURRENT EVENT HAPPENING THAT WE ABSOLUTELY MUST AWAIT THE RESULTS OF) assuredly has on our plots." ?
We should get a bunch of high powered explosion seals, some skywalkers, and some ninja villages, and acquaint the three.
 
So...random thought, but some of the merchants we talked to in Mist are expecting to be escorted to Leaf with Jiraiya or something. We should probably have a dude or two ready to escort in case Jiraiya doesn't come back or something.
 
@eaglejarl I assume (perhaps incorrectly) that voting is still open?

(Also are we counting votes from the last threadmark or from the last chapter? Sometimes we do one or the other and I just want to make sure [i.e. do I have to edit stuff still:p or is someone else with really interesting and clever plans like @huhYeahGoodPoint or @Oneiros cool to take the reins?].)
 
I kind of agree, with my usual caveat that our ends only justify our means if we can actually make real progress towards said ends. "We'll eventually save the world" is a justification for many things, but only if you actually do get around to saving the world, eventually.

We've made some serious sacrifices to achieve a position where we can implement our Uplift ideas effectively. But until we actually start doing that, the justification rings hollow to me. In particular when I see attempts to push our ledger even more into the red, with even more promises of future utopias.

The fact that the people on the Sunset Racer and the Condors suffered to get us here, should be a strong motivation to start using our ill-gotten capital for the betterment of mankind. We've gotten derailed by various fires along the way, but I, for one, am slowly losing patience with this status quo. I'm probably even going to vote for blunt instruments like spending our own money to sponsor Till'n'Fills at this point, just to get something going.
Yeah, that's part of why I'm in support of the Victory Tour idea. There's the practical arguments about PR, identifying sympathizers, etc., but I also really want Hazou to have more confidence in investing effort into direct Uplift actions now that that's an option, and to get a good first step on making up for the red in our ledger from getting here.
 
I kind of agree, with my usual caveat that our ends only justify our means if we can actually make real progress towards said ends. "We'll eventually save the world" is a justification for many things, but only if you actually do get around to saving the world, eventually.
Agreed. I also think we have to be extremely careful with any ethical argument that attempts to justify immoral acts by claiming that we cannot do good if we don't maintain power and the immoral acts in question are needed to maintain that power. The argument can be used to justify all sorts of horrors. I don't believe it has much persuasive value because of how expansive it is.

So...random thought, but some of the merchants we talked to in Mist are expecting to be escorted to Leaf with Jiraiya or something. We should probably have a dude or two ready to escort in case Jiraiya doesn't come back or something.
I'm fairly sure we just promised a ninja escort.

True. Fifi needs a friend. A chakra puppy(?) Sounds like just the thing.
You know, I wonder what happened with Keiko's promised chakra pony that she bargained out of Jiraiya.
 
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I'm fairly sure we just promised a ninja escort.
"Three days will be fine," Keiko said firmly. "Jiraiya may still be here at that time, in which case you could return with the rest of the Leaf contingent. Failing that, I will arrange for two of the Leaf ninja to remain and serve as your escorts." She hesitated. "In the unlikely event that that cannot be arranged, I will hire two Mist ninja to escort you, if that's acceptable?"
Yes, and we have to arrange for it to happen.
 
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