Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
- Location
- Left of Center
I'm curious, mind linking the prediction?
Admittedly, I was no help, so I can't really judge.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
-
- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
I'm curious, mind linking the prediction?
Admittedly, I was no help, so I can't really judge.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I note that "it's fun" is a valid reason to at least consider an idea.
Correct me if I'm wrong about this, but it sounds like other people are saying "we want to do this because it's fun" and you're saying "I don't want to do this because it doesn't forward any of my goals for Hazō". One approach you might consider would be "this is a thing that people want to do, so getting it passed wouldn't be hard. What sort of heist would forward my goals?" For example, if you had the goal "create an intelligence network" then a heist that focused on acquiring blackmail material on a rich merchant would be useful.
Voting doesn't have to be zero-sum. Finding a way to direct the prevailing currents into pushing your agenda is the best approach.
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- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
That's a great idea! And will definitely help out the summoning scroll conspiracy
We have no reason to do a heist. Therefore, my vote will be no. I categorically refuse to do a heist until then.
In any case, we have ten bazillion things on our TODO list, which is likely to generate potential missions of some kind.
- Location
- Kiev, Ukraine
You know, your attitude just prompts me to vote for anything heist-related. This quest is a game and games are meant to be fun. Otherwise there is no sense in playing.
I don't say we should go and get ourselves killed, any heist we perform should be planned of course. But denying other people their fun is not cool.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
*woooosh*
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
First:
As @eaglejarl pointed out, pretty much any general class of ideas ("We should acquire apprentices!" "We should do a heist." "We should start a business." ) contains enough variations that it could practically be applied to advance pretty much any sort of goal in some way.
It is downright baffling to me that such things are often met with "Hello what about obvious problem? This does not account for this. Bad idea."
Often to me, this devolves into sniping over trivial low hanging fruit. I become mildly skeptical that the other individual has actually put any due dilligence into the conversation besides throwing the first reasonable objection that came to mind because it boils down to "This is a thing I don't want to do."
A simple "I don't want to do that." with no continued justifications would suffice there, though of course "I don't want to do that, but would you exchange voting for this idea I have in return if I support a reasonable implementation of yours in kind?" is much better.
It baffles me how often people declare entire classes of ideas to be garbage by fiat, without pursuing any of the other options above or seemingly examining them.
Second:
One of our main issues at the moment is lack of mid-term planning. We do not actively set up tactical elements for future plots. Even those that we have not thought up yet.
We are, consistently, the kid that rushes to do their homework ten minutes before handing it in, instead of the one that already has half the book of exercises typed up before they're even assigned. Obviously the latter is an unreasonable goal to reach for, but being content with the other side of the scale is equally bad.
Even a purely hypothetical heist plot would be a fantastic exercise. Theres so much we would have to actively get sorted out in advance that it would be really good practice in plotting things over a period of time.
(Aside: we should be put in charge of Leaf's chunin exam events next time we host. This would be a fun event to design.)
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Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Question: I know we have plots for getting ice and salt, but where are we getting the paper?
- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
There was discussion along time ago when we where first discussing setting up the merchant empire that we could use macerators to pulp wood into paper. Once we get Mountain modernized with force walls we should be able to get enough trees to make a ton of paper
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
I feel like this happens less than it appears to happen. That is, if someone presents an idea and someone spots an obvious problem with it and voices it, that doesn't have to be 'this is a bad idea and we shouldn't do it'. It can just as easily be them pointing out the first roadblock in accomplishing the idea, in an attempt to prompt discussion of how to work past the problems and actually accomplish it.
I've noticed, some situations more than others, that people often get defensive at posts like this, as if pointing out flaws in the as-stated implementation of the idea is a denouncement of the entire idea instead of a call for a more nuanced implementation.
While it is good practice to try and give ideas for solving a problem when you raise it, I don't think we should demand that of people as a prerequisite to contributing to a conversation. It's much better for both sides, I think, to assume if someone points out a problem with your plan that they're asking for you or someone else to suggest nuanced additions to the plan instead of attacking the very concept of the plan in the first place.
I've personally repeatedly run into a wall of "This idea is unorthodox so I'm going to shut it down as aggressively as I can, immediately, so as to prevent it from gaining any traction.", once said explicitly in words to that effect.
- Location
- Italy
Pity.
Those are the best ideas, especially against veterans like Jiraya/Ami/Ect...
You can't anticipate Chaos, right?
- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The wall I constantly run into is this idea has some small amount of risk so we must instantly shout it down
- Location
- Kiev, Ukraine
I fully support this.
One point though: I think the higher level play for our spy/merchant network should be a unit capable of execution of a full-scale economical warfare planing.
Elaboration:
We had a glimpse of Jiraiya's spy network and tasks it performs. It is mostly on the level of "steal some secret from your foes" and "throw a wrench in enemie's plan". This is cool and all, but what the spy network lacks is an analytical team that could perform analysis on economics of various players (countries, villages, clans, you name it). We can actually create one.
We have a very good analytic/logistitian at hand (Keiko) and possibly even two (Ami) as well as support (at least for now) for the smartest clan in all EN (Nara). We can add a bunch of civilians to perform raw data analysis and statistics reports. Feed them with data from reports sent by our spies/merchants. Make Nara+Mori analyze it to find week points or points of interest.
The possibilities it will open before us are enormous.
- We will now exactly where is surplus/deficit of each good we can trade and we can exploit it to maximize our profits.
- We can diminish some country to poverty by denying them access to vital products/services without single kunai thrown or jutsu casted.
- IIRC Jiraiya said at one point that Fire is the country that is closer to self-sufficiency than any other, but even it hasn't reached it yet. Hence, currently any country depends on some import and we can just buy out every bit of it to sell it at double/triple/quadruple price in a few weeks/months.
- We can find Akatsuki and/or Snekuncle locations with small margin of error because there are traces left in economy that our unit will find sooner or later.
- Other possibilities that haven't crossed my mind. Yet.
a) we should start early on, because it doesn't depend on our level
b) it will not consume all our time: we can delegate data collection and analytics to other people and only read reports. It will still leave us plenty of time for various shenanigans
c) it will make a lot of other things much easier for us since having information is having an upper hand in any negotiation, and we will have plenty of information
d) it furthers both of our main goals: uplift and to stay alive
I am not opposed to the idea of a heist itself. It's too specific of an idea at this stage, and ruining a merchant strikes me as immoral at first impression, and it's not the only way to ruin a merchant. Before we commit to a single plan for ruining a merchant, we should first ask ourselves whether that accomplish our goal and concerns of ethic/morality, benefit and cost analysis.
When/if a mission come up that really required a heist, only then I will support it.
We haven't even done the unsexy part, such as setting up merchant spy network, talking to people, etc.
When/if a mission come up that really required a heist, only then I will support it.
We haven't even done the unsexy part, such as setting up merchant spy network, talking to people, etc.
- Location
- Yes.
There's a voice in my head screaming about how the Yakuza are gonna gank us...but I think if we're going to do this we should start in Noodle. It's where Tanaka (the guy who got ganked and collapsed part of Jiraiya's spy network) lived, it's got somewhat of a friendly disposition towards Leaf (due to Leaf helping them repel Mist back during the start of the quest), and its coastal location means merchants we set up in Noodle can get intel on the Eastern Continent, which Jiraiya desperately needs more intel on (he maybe has the Mist Yakuza, but it's not a guarantee).
Short-term (after getting to Leaf and spending the XP we have banked) we might want to consider looking into missions that take us to Noodle or the surrounding area (Tea? might want to listen on rumours on the Capybara clan loss and how it's affecting their control over the country), especially escort missions (NB: merchants) or similar missions that benefit well-placed civilians in the towns/cities. This would obviously take place in between doing research on seals that make salt/paper. Not sure about ice due to the CSK comparison, and also because Akane may or may not be dead. Edit: I think salt and paper may be more valuable anyway in this day and age?
Oh, also it might be a good idea to check Leaf's imports/exports so that if we do overload the market with our stuff we don't crash Leaf's economy, since that would probably make everyone angry at us (or at the least make preparations for dealing with the market crash. Probably should do that anyway, hm.).
Are they still going to be friendly to us after we killed two of their nin and the yak there not liking us? I don't know, but we should figure out its current status.
Also, the Yak are not going to gank us for buying debt from them?
- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The way you keep the Yakuza from ganking us is to make sure any business we set up pays there protection money
How does this setting up bar business work?
- Location
- Yes.
I was referring to Goda's capture, actually, and the possibility of the Noodle Yakuza knowing it was us and then murderizing us for it. But that's the paranoia screaming and (assuming Jiraiya did a good job getting the Mist Yakuza on board with our story) I don't think it's the most likely possibility.
What do you think of the rest of my thoughts? Taking missions from relatively wealthy merchants/shopkeepers could be a viable alternative to simply bribing them, and doing the former gives us the excuse to go to towns and places to do the latter.
- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Well you find someone that you can get some kind of leverage over. Own their debt, blackmail them, help them with some small scale trouble. Stuff like that. You then pick whatever city you want to base them in. Find a location and purchase a bar. Pay off the local Yakuza or other power brokers.
Well I wouldn't have Team Uplift do the work in setting this up. Whomever we find to run it should do the legwork
There's only so many bars that can exist within a town. The problem with your idea is that spymasters already thought of this and did the legwork. They have recruited innkeepers, barkeepers, etc.
In which case we will be entering fierce competition to support bars unless we have competitive advantages.
- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Nahhh most bars are for getting people drunk. Also you have vastly overestimated the amount of spys in the world. Also non of the ventures have to turn a profit. We will fund them with our other business ventures