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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Oneiros said:
Well I wouldn't have Team Uplift do the work in setting this up. Whomever we find to run it should do the legwork
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But that still would require us to find such individuals, which (personal opinion here) is best-suited being an actual native to the area (in the example I'm running, Noodle). Which would mean we'd want to spend time in Noodle finding said individual(s).
 
faflec said:
But that still would require us to find such individuals, which (personal opinion here) is best-suited being an actual native to the area (in the example I'm running, Noodle). Which would mean we'd want to spend time in Noodle finding said individual(s).
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Then, first, we plan a mission there so we can figure out how to get our bearing.

But do we have any contact with Noodle merchants? Maybe we can get reference from them.
 
faflec said:
But that still would require us to find such individuals, which (personal opinion here) is best-suited being an actual native to the area (in the example I'm running, Noodle). Which would mean we'd want to spend time in Noodle finding said individual(s).
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Sure sure. Risk vs rewards. We could recruit people from different parts of noodle or wherever and move them to other spots
 
So, let's think constructively on how we might achieve some of these ambitious goals. I'll take the merchant spy network. Questions I can think of, that we're going to need to answer in order to make this work:
  • Recruitment and vetting. How do we find the right people and how do we ensure they can be trusted (and how much)?
  • Incentives. What reason do they have to work for us? Are we paying in ryo? Favors and contacts? Ideological satisfaction?
  • Levels of involvement and trust. Are we looking for full-time dedicated agents? Or just normal merchants willing to keep an ear out and sell information? Something in between?
  • Structure and infosec practices. Solo operatives or cells? Do we want regional coordinators? How do we make them not single points of failure?
  • How big of a central organization in Leaf are we envisioning? Do we plan for Hazou do just run it on his own like Jiraiya did? If not, who is going to do it and how do we convince them to do so?
  • How do we build out? We currently have nothing, what are the steps to get from this state to the organization we're envisioning?
Anyone want to do something similar for scrolls? We have some leads there, so a good question to answer would be, say, how to find Grandmaster F and what to offer them for their scroll.
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
I feel like this happens less than it appears to happen. That is, if someone presents an idea and someone spots an obvious problem with it and voices it, that doesn't have to be 'this is a bad idea and we shouldn't do it'. It can just as easily be them pointing out the first roadblock in accomplishing the idea, in an attempt to prompt discussion of how to work past the problems and actually accomplish it.

I've noticed, some situations more than others, that people often get defensive at posts like this, as if pointing out flaws in the as-stated implementation of the idea is a denouncement of the entire idea instead of a call for a more nuanced implementation.

While it is good practice to try and give ideas for solving a problem when you raise it, I don't think we should demand that of people as a prerequisite to contributing to a conversation. It's much better for both sides, I think, to assume if someone points out a problem with your plan that they're asking for you or someone else to suggest nuanced additions to the plan instead of attacking the very concept of the plan in the first place.
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This would be kosher with me if people were able to differentiate "Spitballing on potential future plots." and "Things that need to be put into an action plan, like right now."

It's unreasonable to expect spitballing to be entirely error free.

Less of "The problem with this is X." and more of "I think this could maybe work, modulo X or Y being resolved in a way that doesn't cause problems."

Kiba said:
I am not opposed to the idea of a heist itself.
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Don't let me get in the way of you walking back your past statements, but I find this hard to reconcile with said past statements.

Your responses when you noticed this idea being bandied about were roughly along the lines of

"Why the fuck are we talking about this?"

"There's no analysis done on what we stand to gain, NO NO NO NO!"

"At this stage, it's an automatic veto."

"Yes, I shot the heist idea down."

"We have no reason to do a heist. Therefore, my vote will be no. I categorically refuse to do a heist until then. "

Furthermore, in this very response you state:

It's too specific of an idea at this stage, and ruining a merchant strikes me as immoral at first impression, and it's not the only way to ruin a merchant. Before we commit to a single plan for ruining a merchant, we should first ask ourselves whether that accomplish our goal and concerns of ethic/morality, benefit and cost analysis.

When/if a mission come up that really required a heist, only then I will support it.

We haven't even done the unsexy part, such as setting up merchant spy network, talking to people, etc.
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The above checks off the following from my Bullshit Sensors(which is not to say that you were bullshitting me, of course):

  • Claimed that idea was too specific simultaneously with using the specific example as representative of the overall idea class.
  • Moralizing
  • Vaguely stated criteria for approval.
  • Implication that this needs to be gatekeeped behind scenario specific details (merchant spy network, talking to people, etc.)

You could instead have just said "I don't want to do this." or "Maybe later but I don't really see the value now." or "I don't see why this is helpful, can someone enlighten me?" or a number of things and stopped posting further objections. Instead, it seems like you feel the need to actively shout this down for some reason, and the only objective that that accomplished was to raise the noise quotient.

Someone responded to you with a very thoughtful post more or less outlining that its highly possible that , whatever your goals may be, this could in some way be implemented in such a way as to help them, and pointed out that it is rarely the case that there is no reason to do something. Your immediate response was to double down on your position that "There is no reason to do Thing." and ignore anything they actually said.

As a general rule of thumb(for me personally) this sort of behavior does not convince me that I should grant heavy weight to your opinions on the matter in question. Similarly, it doesn't really make me want to spend that much effort discussing this point with you, since you don't appear to be very open to changing your mind on things you already have an opinion on and I have finite time to spend.




Roomba said:
So, let's think constructively on how we might achieve some of these ambitious goals. I'll take the merchant spy network. Questions I can think of, that we're going to need to answer in order to make this work:
  • Recruitment and vetting. How do we find the right people and how do we ensure they can be trusted (and how much)?
  • Incentives. What reason do they have to work for us? Are we paying in ryo? Favors and contacts? Ideological satisfaction?
  • Levels of involvement and trust. Are we looking for full-time dedicated agents? Or just normal merchants willing to keep an ear out and sell information? Something in between?
  • Structure and infosec practices. Solo operatives or cells? Do we want regional coordinators? How do we make them not single points of failure?
  • How big of a central organization in Leaf are we envisioning? Do we plan for Hazou do just run it on his own like Jiraiya did? If not, who is going to do it and how do we convince them to do so?
  • How do we build out? We currently have nothing, what are the steps to get from this state to the organization we're envisioning?
Anyone want to do something similar for scrolls? We have some leads there, so a good question to answer would be, say, how to find Grandmaster F and what to offer them for their scroll.
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See, this is productive discussion and a great way to address potential issues!

I will vote for your plan(s) for a voting cycle of your choosing in return for being an exemplar of jolly cooperation!
 
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MMKII said:
The above checks off the following from my Bullshit Sensors(which is not to say that you were bullshitting me, of course):

  • Claimed that idea was too specific simultaneously with using the specific example as a representative of the overall idea class.
  • Moralizing
  • Vaguely stated criteria for approval.
  • Implication that this needs to be gatekeeped behind scenario specific details (merchant spy network, talking to people, etc.)

You could instead have just said "I don't want to do this." or "Maybe later but I don't really see the value now." or "I don't see why this is helpful, can someone enlighten me?" or a number of things and stopped posting further objections. Instead, it seems like you feel the need to actively shout this down for some reason, and the only objective that that accomplished was to raise the noise quotient.

Someone responded to you with a very thoughtful post more or less outlining that its highly possible that , whatever your goals may be, this could in some way be implemented in such a way as to help them, and pointed out that it is rarely the case that there is no reason to do something. Your immediate response was to double down on your position that "There is no reason to do Thing." and ignore anything they actually said.
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Well, I have changed my mind a little bit to come to what I thought was a thoughtful, flexible response. Maybe we will do a heist, maybe we don't. But it looked to me that we're jumping on a mission when we barely have yet to consider what we are trying to do.

But, there seem to be a question needed to be asked with regard to the merchant spy network. Mainly, what are we trying to do with this network and how does that fit within the uplift goal.
 
MMKII said:
This would be kosher with me if people were able to differentiate "Spitballing on potential future plots." and "Things that need to be put into an action plan, like right now."
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It would be significantly easier to differentiate if folks would not make jokes about making up heists with Ami, or, along similar lines, act as if we will never do a thing because we are not doing it right this instant.
 
Kiba said:
Mainly, what are we trying to do with this network and how. does that fit within the uplift.
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To clarify: Is "Obtain a consistent stream of semi-reliable intelligence about the goings on in the EN, which we use to make more informed decisions and plots on any large-scale ideas." sufficient?
 
eaglejarl said:
I note that "it's fun" is a valid reason to at least consider an idea.

Correct me if I'm wrong about this, but it sounds like other people are saying "we want to do this because it's fun" and you're saying "I don't want to do this because it doesn't forward any of my goals for Hazō". One approach you might consider would be "this is a thing that people want to do, so getting it passed wouldn't be hard. What sort of heist would forward my goals?" For example, if you had the goal "create an intelligence network" then a heist that focused on acquiring blackmail material on a rich merchant would be useful.

Voting doesn't have to be zero-sum. Finding a way to direct the prevailing currents into pushing your agenda is the best approach.
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OK. Allow me to rethink my opinion. I do not think "fun" by itself a valid criteria for selecting missions. If anything, I want the least dramatic victory as possible in the sense that it is the easiest, most efficient way to achieve victory.

However, I think a 'heist' doesn't make sense as a goal and too specific as a tactic and that I think we should be tactically open for whatever goals we might have. Right now, we do not currently have anything yet to connect to a heist.

MMKII said:
To clarify: Is "Obtain a consistent stream of semi-reliable intelligence about the goings on in the EN, which we use to make more informed decisions and plots on any large-scale ideas." sufficient?
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I thought it would be about economic and business intelligence. Jiraiya already had a spy network for that, though our merchant spy network would certainly complement this.
 
Kiba said:
I thought it would be about economic and business intelligence. Jiraiya already had a spy network for that, though our merchant spy network would certainly complement this.
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I note that "Economic and business intelligence" is subsumed in "intelligence about the goings on in the EN.", and that more semi-reliable information is pretty much always better, yes.
 
Buying a bunch of debt in Mist would be valuable.

It is dangerous though. Mist and Leaf need to come out of this with an alliance, or at least peace. Attempts to gain spies in Mist will be resisted, possibly violently.

There is also a moral risk. Do we really want to threaten helpless merchants?

Fortunately, both of these problems have a solution. Essentially, we use empathy rolls to find visiting merchants (not Mist natives) who are either sympathetic to us/uplift/Leaf, or could use extra ryo.

We then use them to sell salt/paper/whatever. We sell it to them at a massive discount, but still above our manufacturing costs. This relationship is contingent on them feeding us information.

We could also give them storage seals, if they ever hire ninja guards that can use them. We can't give them our seals though, they would get recognized. So we set up a seal laundering operation in Leaf. We tell the world that we want to study storage seals and how they break after use, so we offer a 1 to 1 trade in, with an extra bonus for seals from other villages, as we see less of those.

We can then give the foreign seals to foreign merchants.

We get money, the spies get money, the people get more goods, and we get the start of a spy network.
 
Oneiros said:
Personally I want to use it to find leads on summoning scrolls.
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You know...if we went to Tea and investigated clues for who exactly stole the Capybara contract...I wouldn't vote against the idea. Said contract would IMO be the safest one to go after, given that from the others we know about one is Cloud-aligned, one is (most likely) Mist-aligned, and the other is Uchiha Itachi.
 
I think sealing scroll is hard to obtain and in any case, people are already working hard on this.

So maybe 3 years to obtain one.

Immortal Lurker said:
We can then give the foreign seals to foreign merchants.

We get money, the spies get money, the people get more goods, and we get the start of a spy network.
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We don't need merchants to become dangerous undercover spies. IF all they do is report on economic conditions, then it's good to me.
 
Roomba said:
Are you comfortable with a timeline of 3+ years? That's my optimistic estimate of how long it'd take to build a spy network capable of yielding useful intelligence on summoning scrolls, with the resources of the heir of Leaf's ruling clan.
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Yeah. I honestly don't expect this to pay out. But it's useful to work on at the same time as other ventures. This is also a good way to sit up empire of salt at the same time
 
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