So when we go to Mountain what is our win condition there? Do we just want to build an alliance with them and Leaf? Do we want them tied directly to the Goketsu? Do we want to instate Kei as the Messiah and rule directly? What about creating a priesthood that run the village but is answerable to Kei?
I'm hesitant to declare an outright goal right now since depending on the situation there some goals will be possible and others will be impossible.

The general strokes of what I'd want to see is the more influence Leaf has over Mountain, the better. If we can get Keiko installed as their Kage and personally rule Mountain, that's great. It's likely not a realistic option, but if we can pull it off then I'd support going for it.

The highest reasonable amount of influence I can picture off the top of my head is Takahashi being Kage but needing our support to stay in charge, to the point where we can basically guide and control Mountain's resources with him as a proxy. I feel like the ideal way to do this would be to play up Keiko's religious significance until her decision on who 'operates in her stead' or w/e is the final say in who rules Mountain. This might be difficult, though, depending on how Takahashi's been doing in our year away.

If I had to plan things out now, I'd say we should attempt a strategy that aims for Keiko controlling the Kage seat, keeping an eye out for an opportunity to claim direct power, but also having contingencies prepared to fall back to just 'close alliance with Mountain as the junior partner' if our plan A fails.
 
The general strokes of what I'd want to see is the more influence Leaf has over Mountain, the better.
I generaly agree to what you say in the post, but I have arguments against this exact sentence: it should be Gouketsu's influence, not Leaf's. Even if Jiraiya manages to solidify his claim to the hat, the next Hokage can come from opposing party. In this case all Mountain resources gonna fall in wrong hands. If the influence is of Gouketsu, than our assets are more secure.
 
So when we go to Mountain what is our win condition there? Do we just want to build an alliance with them and Leaf? Do we want them tied directly to the Goketsu? Do we want to instate Kei as the Messiah and rule directly? What about creating a priesthood that run the village but is answerable to Kei?
I want them tied directly to the Goketsu if possible. If Leaf has to go through Goketsu to negotiate with Mountain it makes us even more important and hard to dispose of.

Edit:
We got rich off of being the only trade route to the pangolins. Mountain has a lot less resources to trade than them, but it also isn't committing genocide (probably). I'd say that's worth exploring.
 
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You know, we could point out to Keiko that the deadline on Mountain is coming up, and let her decide what tact with them we'll recommend to Jiraiya.
 
Now, I'll admit that I'm very skeptical of the idea that Mountain is a resource that we can lay claim to (maybe if Ami marries in and we have her do it, which is its own kind of dangerous), but something I want to head off:

I generaly agree to what you say in the post, but I have arguments against this exact sentence: it should be Gouketsu's influence, not Leaf's. Even if Jiraiya manages to solidify his claim to the hat, the next Hokage can come from opposing party. In this case all Mountain resources gonna fall in wrong hands. If the influence is of Gouketsu, than our assets are more secure.

This is very dangerous. If Jiraiya loses the hat, then the surface reason may be that he has too many other responsibilities or someone else has closer ties to Leaf's ruling powers (due to his time away as spymaster) or because they say they want him able to act away from Leaf, but at least some of it's going to be because he took in four ninja who were definitely never missing-nin (we promise!). Securing an entire separate and very visible power base plays into that narrative, and in a way that can be utilized to basically concern-troll. It's openly aggressive and very impolite to say, "should we be worried about the fact that the guy we just replaced as temporary Hokage is keeping a personal grip on this secret ninja village? what's he planning to do with it?" It is, however, socially accepted to say, "well, I know that the honorable Jiraiya of the Sannin has no ill intentions, but this looks bad, doesn't it?" And if you repeat that often enough, that sticks in people's mind even if no one takes an open stand against it.

(This can't be done with the "adopting missing nin" thing, because of the polite fiction that Team Uplift defected to Leaf from the very beginning. Calling them "missing nin" with the usual connotations of "disloyal and scary" is an open challenge to Jiraiya, so you can't concern-troll and still maintain plausible deniability.)

You should ask yourself: are you willing to let Leaf have the resources, even if Jiraiya loses the hat? If you are, sure, go ahead and act. If not, then you should advocate for hanging back and not securing ties to Mountain until you're sure Jiraiya has the hat secure--but be aware that Jiraiya's stated opinion on such matters is that Leaf always comes first for him, and that advocating for this course (even quietly and discreetly) will likely not be received well. So if you want the resources for Goketsu and Goketsu alone, it's a good idea to stay away from Mountain until the matter of the hat is resolved, so as to try and ensure that the issue never comes up at all.
 
Now, I'll admit that I'm very skeptical of the idea that Mountain is a resource that we can lay claim to (maybe if Ami marries in and we have her do it, which is its own kind of dangerous), but something I want to head off:



This is very dangerous. If Jiraiya loses the hat, then the surface reason may be that he has too many other responsibilities or someone else has closer ties to Leaf's ruling powers (due to his time away as spymaster) or because they say they want him able to act away from Leaf, but at least some of it's going to be because he took in four ninja who were definitely never missing-nin (we promise!). Securing an entire separate and very visible power base plays into that narrative, and in a way that can be utilized to basically concern-troll. It's openly aggressive and very impolite to say, "should we be worried about the fact that the guy we just replaced as temporary Hokage is keeping a personal grip on this secret ninja village? what's he planning to do with it?" It is, however, socially accepted to say, "well, I know that the honorable Jiraiya of the Sannin has no ill intentions, but this looks bad, doesn't it?" And if you repeat that often enough, that sticks in people's mind even if no one takes an open stand against it.

(This can't be done with the "adopting missing nin" thing, because of the polite fiction that Team Uplift defected to Leaf from the very beginning. Calling them "missing nin" with the usual connotations of "disloyal and scary" is an open challenge to Jiraiya, so you can't concern-troll and still maintain plausible deniability.)

You should ask yourself: are you willing to let Leaf have the resources, even if Jiraiya loses the hat? If you are, sure, go ahead and act. If not, then you should advocate for hanging back and not securing ties to Mountain until you're sure Jiraiya has the hat secure--but be aware that Jiraiya's stated opinion on such matters is that Leaf always comes first for him, and that advocating for this course (even quietly and discreetly) will likely not be received well. So if you want the resources for Goketsu and Goketsu alone, it's a good idea to stay away from Mountain until the matter of the hat is resolved, so as to try and ensure that the issue never comes up at all.
I suspect even Jiraiya would be hesitant to let certain resources fall into the lap of his main competitor if he felt the competitor was likely to misuse them for his own personal ends.

Also, knowing about Hidden Mountain is actually a pretty good trump card if the clan ever needs to run for it and have a safe place to go, so that's another good argument for keeping it under wraps for a while, as a backup escape plan.

As for personal accumulation of power being looked at askance, you make a good point. On the other hand, ANBU are literally the Hokage's sworn personal army and nobody finds that terribly worrisome for some reason like I would if I were there. There might be a much higher tolerance for that sort of thing in ninja world than we're accustomed to in a democratic society that is extremely suspicious of personal loyalty and concentration of power because we're anti-dictator in a way that ninja aren't.
 
As much politicking as there is in Leaf, it's good to remember that the only reason Jiraiya's hat is properly 'on the line' right now is that he's only temporarily Hokage in order to search for Naruto. At the end of the day the Hokage is the military dictator of Leaf, so whether it's Jiraiya or Hiashi who keeps the hat they're going to keep it.

That doesn't mean politicking is pointless once the hat's on firm, of course, the clans are major parts of Leaf's economy and administration and such so they do still have meaningful power, and there's always the next Hokage election once the current Hokage dies or retires, but we shouldn't be worried that Jiraiya'll get impeached if Hiashi gets the support of more clans than Jiraiya does for a moment or anything like that.
 
As much politicking as there is in Leaf, it's good to remember that the only reason Jiraiya's hat is properly 'on the line' right now is that he's only temporarily Hokage in order to search for Naruto. At the end of the day the Hokage is the military dictator of Leaf, so whether it's Jiraiya or Hiashi who keeps the hat they're going to keep it.

That doesn't mean politicking is pointless once the hat's on firm, of course, the clans are major parts of Leaf's economy and administration and such so they do still have meaningful power, and there's always the next Hokage election once the current Hokage dies or retires, but we shouldn't be worried that Jiraiya'll get impeached if Hiashi gets the support of more clans than Jiraiya does for a moment or anything like that.
Correct me if I'm wrong but we don't actually understand how politics in the villages function. How much is controlled by the hokage and how much is controlled by the councils. For all we know having a hostile council would cripple Jiraiya giving further reason to replace him.

I probably shouldnt post this but I am: Consider it like American politics right now. Trump was fine for two years, no one called him out on his lack of delivery of his campaign promise because no large news organization or politican wanted to force him into doing it. When he lost the support of the house (aka council) it became a big deal again because it'd make him look bad and he wouldn't be able to effectively fight it.

Note I actually voted Dem. Posturing is still posturing.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but we don't actually understand how politics in the villages function. How much is controlled by the hokage and how much is controlled by the councils. For all we know having a hostile council would cripple Jiraiya giving further reason to replace him.
Right, that's what I mean by the clans being a major part of Leaf's economy and administration and such. We don't know how much power the Clans have over the running of Leaf but we do know that the Hokage hat is not something that can just be taken if you have a strong voting bloc. So yeah, if Jiraiya keeps the hat then he'll still have to play nice with the Hyuuga and he won't have total control over how Leaf runs, but he should feel pretty safe in keeping the power he does have.

I suppose in theory a Hokage with particularly weak support could be 'convinced' to retire and let someone else take up the hat, but it would take a really serious imbalance of power to get away with a power play that blatant.
 
Just as well. I often re-read earlier points in the thread, and I can't stand to read my first few dozen chapters.
I know how you feel. It's amazing how many people stuck with us during those early chapters--and in a way that's still true since those are the first thing prospective readers see.

Edit: This anti-nostalgia prompted me to look back at the early days of the quest. @MadScientist and @faflec have been with us since posts #20 and #58 respectively, and that's counting QM posts. Thanks for sticking with us, guys. You are truly extraordinary.

Edit 2: Any other "early adopters" out there? I didn't glance beyond the first few couple of hundred (which notably featured @Dictator4Hire), but I'd be curious to know who else got drawn in and still hasn't managed to escape.
 
I believe that before we get shadow clones for Keiko we need to address her addictive personality with respect to mind-altering techniques.

e: To be clear, this absolutely is not a joke. I strongly believe that Keiko is addicted -- in some regard -- to using the Frozen Skein to dull her negative emotions.

e2: It's like how alcohol's a depressant but people who are depressed use it to dull their emotions all the same.

We do need to hack shadow clone into an educational knowledge-transfer system. A few disposable genin accidentally fused into chimeric abominations are a small price to pay. I recommend starting with Kiba. It probably won't even be noticed.



So when we go to Mountain what is our win condition there? Do we just want to build an alliance with them and Leaf? Do we want them tied directly to the Goketsu? Do we want to instate Kei as the Messiah and rule directly? What about creating a priesthood that run the village but is answerable to Kei?

Figure out exactly why the last pangolin summoner coordinated with the tapiers to seal the pangolins away.

-also, where the heck they got a Jinchuuriki.
 
Right, that's what I mean by the clans being a major part of Leaf's economy and administration and such. We don't know how much power the Clans have over the running of Leaf but we do know that the Hokage hat is not something that can just be taken if you have a strong voting bloc. So yeah, if Jiraiya keeps the hat then he'll still have to play nice with the Hyuuga and he won't have total control over how Leaf runs, but he should feel pretty safe in keeping the power he does have.

I suppose in theory a Hokage with particularly weak support could be 'convinced' to retire and let someone else take up the hat, but it would take a really serious imbalance of power to get away with a power play that blatant.
IIRC Jiraiya told us once that Hyuga can withdraw their nins from missions, which would decrease military power of the Leaf. That is if Hyuga were really upset with Hokage.

Also, I did not manage to communicate well: what I meant is that yes, HM should remain Hidden as long as possible, but we can strenghten our influence on them while Leaf stays oblivious.

Another reminded I want to make is that the Third had all external politics and half of trade tied up to himself, as started by Jiraiya. I didn't saw much opposition to that from other clans, granted we were not around at the time and don't know the details. My prediction is that we can get with almost any excessive power we accumulate if we don't mind to share. E. g. Sarutobi receive control over Wind-Fire trade and gives some discounts to, say, Hyuga. Hyuga gets richer, more grateful and support Sarutobi more. The actual power to make decisions is still in Sarutobi's hands, but everyone are Happy.

E:
-also, where the heck they got a Jinchuuriki.

They have WHAT? How did I missed that? :Citation Needed:
 
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Everyone name your candidate for "Most Stupidly OP Canon Jutsu"

I would almost surely go with Edo Tensei, myself.

Henge. So easy to break the setting with and it is being taught to freaking children in the setting.

Edo Tensei is also powerful, I'm sure. But the fact that it is usually limited to just one guy every half a century or whatever is a balancing factor for that.

Henge has no such excuse.
 
"Hazō! Get down here!"

Hazō dropped the seal brush he'd been using to make explosives (Kagome-sensei was right: so soothing!) and leaped over the balcony's railing. Given his Clan Head's tone, there was no time to waste on stairs.

"What's going on, sir?"

"The Kage just received a message. We've found Akatsuki's base where Naruto and the other jinchūriki are being held captive! We're going to go punch them all in the face until they stop moving, then take Naruto back."

"..."

Hazō shook his head to get rid of the mental paralysis. "Yes sir. How can I help?"

"You, Keiko, and Noburi are going with us. While they're getting ready I want you to come to the strategy meeting with the other Kage."

"...You want me, a fourteen-year-old genin, to sit in on a meeting with you and the other Kage?"

"Yep. And then you're coming along when we go to superawesomely punch Akatsuki in the face. I hope you've kept up your taijutsu training."

"Uhhh...."

"Cool. Hurry up, they're waiting."

"Yes, si--"

"EJ."

"Hm?" <guilty look, rapid pounding on boss key> "Oh, hey @Velorien. How's it going?"

"What are you writing, EJ?"

"...nothing?"

"Don't try that. What are you writing?"

"Um...a superawesome thing where we get to show high-level diplomacy and then a huge punching scene with all these epically powerful people?"

"This is not the plan, EJ."

"But...but...."

"Stick to the plan."

"But...but punching! And superawesomness!"

"The players want to help Jiraiya find a clean shirt."

"But...but...! Awesome!"

"And then they want to do a bunch of stuff with Ami."

"They want to plan about Ami. And there's no way I'm writing that--you do Ami way better. C'mon, just a little punching?"

"They want to go to the finals and watch Shino and Keiko punch each other. That's punching."

"Yeah, but those two can't pull the moon out of the sky and throw it at someone or punch a twenty-mile crater in the earth!"

"Stick to the plan. It's a good plan."

<sigh> "Fine. Yes, it's solid. Not as superawesome as the Kage punching Akatsuki in the face while Hazō watches, but it's got some fun parts. I just wanted to write the superawesome punching stuff."

"Stick to the plan and I'll buy you an icey."

"Ooooh!"
 
Do you think Gai would teach us how to punch 20 mile long craters if we asked really nicely and promised to do our sit-ups, push-ups, and drink lots of low-carb almond milk?
 
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"Yeah, but those two can't pull the moon out of the sky and throw it at someone or punch a twenty-mile crater in the earth!"
You should play Exalted. It has stuff like a martial arts move that lets you throw your victim twenty miles. It takes them five minutes to finally land, and when they do the shockwave has an effect on anyone near the impact point similar to an artillery shell.

And if you describe the most over the top, extra difficult, awesome way of doing something you actually get bonuses because the pattern spiders that maintain reality are really bored and like it when people come up with new and interesting things.

Also, the post was hilarious :)
 
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