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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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@Noumero I think the plan is solid, my only two cents is that if/ when Ami brings up the black kitten (Keiko) in the room, we say that while we're interested in Ami because she's Keiko's sister, we're just here this time to get a sense of Ami, not talk about Keiko.
Make it more clear that are trying to look out for Keiko, just not talk about her, you know?

Unrelated note:
MMKII said:
complain about the price of china in Tea.
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This was quite clever/ funny and I appreciated it and felt the need to say as such.
 
Oh dear.
Inferno Vulpix said:
Objection to this: a high-grade writing instrument is a bit much for a casual meeting like this.
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Noted. @eaglejarl gave ^_^-stamp approval, so I'll be putting it in. Is that fine?
Roomba said:
[Four suggestions]
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Implemented with a modification, implemented, implemented, implemented.
Tua said:
Anyway, my suggestion would be to make it clear that "honesty where appropriate" has a lower priority than the other guide lines he has to follow, and is more constrained than "unless you are being rude". Maybe some rephrasing or reshuffling of the bullet points would make this clearer.
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Roomba said:
However, we do need to lie about some things, by omission at minimum, and that's fine as long as we understand the consequences. When Hazou tells Ami "I wanted to meet the Mori prodigy", that's technically true, but obviously not the full story, and that's fine for Ami to know.
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See, the problem with that is that it boils down to "be unconventionally honest where appropriate, but only where appropriate", and there's no clear way to divide the two except on a case-by-case basis. I tried something, but I'm not sure.
Cariyaga said:
First: You say for Hazou to be honest, but then immediately thereafter have him lying about his reasons for meeting Ami. In the chapter where Hazou asked for Jiraiya's permission to meet Ami, his reasons for doing so were political -- to help Jiraiya get a better read on her -- and for Keiko. Hazou has never expressed interest in meeting her because she is a prodigy.

Second: I have significant concerns about the topics listed under Family. Perhaps it's phrasing, but it still seems distinctly uncomfortable to discuss.
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@Roomba addressed the first point, and I've rewrote the "Frankness" section to make it clearer.

Regarding the second point: can you expand on it? "Uncomfortable" isn't very informative; do you expect it to be counter-productive? In what ways?
Tua said:
E: Can we add this second bullet point?
<...>
Cause she is definitely gonna play up the charm on a relatively inexperienced teenage boy if she thinks it will give her an advantage.
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Implemented, after a fashion.
Halberdier said:
@Noumero I think the plan is solid, my only two cents is that if/ when Ami brings up the black kitten (Keiko) in the room, we say that while we're interested in Ami because she's Keiko's sister, we're just here this time to get a sense of Ami, not talk about Keiko.
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I think it already works out this way? If Ami brings Keiko up, Hazou will suggest postponing the topic, saying that he doesn't want to talk about her behind her back. I think it would, in itself, show that he cares about her, and that he isn't meeting Ami because of her.
Restinan said:
I think CCNJ is something that's really only useful with people we really trust. Bringing it up with Ami seems foolish and pointless.
Why wall eating? What positive is there to suggesting that? All it does is make us seem silly. Ditto for the post-interaction survey.
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CCnJ: It's meant as a subtle signal that we care about Keiko, since we co-developed it with her to help with social interactions. (Also, some metagaming: according to this chapter, Ami did something similar in childhood.)

Regarding wall-eating,
Noumero said:
We took the "floor is lava" idea from her in the first place, so we know it's the kind of bizarreness she appreciates. It's a non-manipulative way of building rapport, which is useful. Similar with the post-interaction survey.
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Plan updated. Changes in blue; 499 words.

Noumero said:
[x] Ami Plan: One Assuredly Containing No Disastrous Oversights
Wordcount: 499.
  • Take time to prepare. Consider drawing a concept map (covertly; destroy it afterwards).
  • Thoughts:
    • Mari stated Ami wouldn't reject Keiko; Keiko trusted Ami unquestioningly. Yet, Ami met Keiko just to cut her off? Suspicious.
      • To divine a plan's goal, look at the results. Ami wanted to stop Keiko from interacting with the Mori? Perhaps it was necessary to protect her?
      • Don't share this thought with anyone.
    • Your Uplift beliefs are public now. Talking with Ami could be seen as probing for support.
    • Ami wouldn't be sure about your goals for the meeting, at first.
  • Sanity-check everything below with Jiraiya.
  • Formalities:
    • Clothes: casual; colours: politically neutral.
    • Gift: a "^_^"-stamp seal.
    • Demeanour: diplomatic but friendly, slightly joking where appropriate.
  • Guidelines:
    • Precommitments (overriding priority):
      • Avoid on-the-spot commitments, however small.
      • Under no circumstances talk about OPSEC-sensitive topics. Ami may make it sound like a good idea, but past!you knows better. If refusing to talk would be telling, stonewall.
      • Don't proactively bring up topics of uncertain confidentiality (breeding programs, scorch squads, Jiraiya's internal politics...).
    • Frankness:
      • You won't be able to deceive her, so don't play games. Unless this plan states otherwise, be honest about your plans and goals for this meeting — even if it's embarrassing.
      • Don't be rude, though.
    • Collectedness:
      • Converse at a deliberate pace. Don't get caught up, don't knee-jerk.
      • Actively work to retain mental balance. Remember meeting Shikaku, and Gisuji.
      • Be mindful of words and gestures. Observe, memorize.
  • Topics:
    • Icebreakers:
      • Suggest dining on the ceiling/wall (check if possible beforehand).
      • Trade unconventional personal questions. E. g., "what are you proud of, but never have an excuse to discuss?".
      • At some point, explain CCnJ.
    • "Social philosophy". (Avoid the particulars of political situation; stay abstract.)
      • Uplift: You've stated your position publicly. What are Ami's thoughts?
      • Existential threats:
        • Global wars are devastating. Is lasting peace possible?
          • As Chuunin Exams show, diplomacy could be effective.
        • Civilization may be gradually declining even in "peacetime", due to chakra-beasts destroying civilian villages. Can we reverse the trend? Improve on the status quo?
    • "Family".
      • To make a lasting impact, one needs to be efficient — which sometimes means ruthlessly sacrificing personal attachments and innocents for power, detachedly thinking of your loved ones as resources, or making decisions for them that would go against their wishes.
        • Is there a balance to be struck, between efficiency and humanity?
      • Don't bring Keiko up. If Ami does, suggest postponing the topic.
        • Keiko is unaware of this meeting, so you're uncomfortable discussing her.
  • Contingencies.
    • If put off-balance: keep your cool, mentally distance yourself.
      • She may try to convince you of her falling-out with Keiko (if it's fake) by e. g. subtly insulting her, or drawing parallels to Hana's exile. Don't let anger control you.
    • End meeting ASAP if Ami...
      • ... persistently pursues a crucial OPSEC topic.
      • ... invites a third party over.
  • If it went well:
    • Agree on a scheme to confirm integrity of letters. (Example: "nth letter of every sentence follows a pattern".)
    • Hand her a post-interaction survey. Collect it next time.
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Noumero said:
I think it already works out this way? If Ami brings Keiko up, Hazou will suggest postponing the topic, saying that he doesn't want to talk about her behind her back. I think it would, in itself, show that he cares about her, and that he isn't meeting Ami because of her.
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I guess my issue with that is that, for me, a large part of why we're meeting with Ami IS Keiko. Not talking to Ami about Keiko is different than talking to Ami because of Keiko. Making it clear we won't talk about Keiko is fine, but at least for me, I wouldn't have supported meeting Ami if she wasn't Keiko's important, estranged person. I don't care about the meme. But if enough other people in the thread would have, I guess it doesn't matter.
 
Halberdier said:
I guess my issue with that is that, for me, a large part of why we're meeting with Ami IS Keiko. Not talking to Ami about Keiko is different than talking to Ami because of Keiko. Making it clear we won't talk about Keiko is fine, but at least for me, I wouldn't have supported meeting Ami if she wasn't Keiko's important, estranged person. I don't care about the meme. But if enough other people in the thread would have, I guess it doesn't matter.
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I don't think it would be tactful to bring this up on the first meeting? Could be a bit of a sore topic.
 
Halberdier said:
I guess my issue with that is that, for me, a large part of why we're meeting with Ami IS Keiko.
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I want to talk about Keiko as well but this isn't something to be rushed. There is a good chance she will just shut us down immediately and then all of this was for nothing.

Having a meeting or two without bringing her up increases the chances of her shutting us down and telling us to get lost. And even if she does, we still gained some intel on her during the first meeting(s) so it wasn't all for nothing.
 
MMKII said:
I don't think it would be tactful to bring this up on the first meeting? Could be a bit of a sore topic.
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I don't recall saying that at all? I'm not saying to bring up Keiko, I'm saying that if Ami brings up Keiko, be willing to say that Ami being Keiko's sister is a factor for us meeting with her, but we're not here to talk about Keiko. I don't think that's unreasonable, rather than ignoring it.
 
Halberdier said:
Ami being Keiko's sister is a factor for us meeting with her, but we're not here to talk about Keiko.
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So my thoughts are that "Ami being Keiko's sister is a factor for us meeting with her" is blatantly obvious to her in some way or another, regardless of if we mention it or not. So just saying "We're not really here to talk about it." suffices to convey this then?
 
Hazou doesn't actually have to carve the stamp himself. There's nothing stopping him from using calligraphy to make a decorative design and then just paying a professional to etch it onto a stamp. In that case he could probably even get it made of polished glass or obsidian as a subtle nod to the Mori voice.



MMKII said:
Lets try a different argument for why I think this might be a good idea. One aspect of this (and of the Ami thing and other things we could/should be doing) is:

FMPOV pretty much everyone else has their clan knowledge safely tucked away in the heads of a handful of old geezers that sit around and drink tea/sake all day and complain about the price of china in Tea.

We're sorely lacking that advantage. Unfortunately, the fount of our clans bullshit OP knowledge is also the Hokage, who is very busy. Too busy to help us with stuff at the moment or teach us much.

Solution: Make J's life easier in exchange for shinies and a few hours of his time each week. I don't even care if its not feasible for Jiraiya to personally help us out for quite a while, we can still get things like "Permission slip to attend the next two week long ANBU infosec training course." or "Funds from the war chest to start your zany business ideas." or "Command of a few dozen Earth genin to send on these wall building trips, and tacit approval thereof (pending funding)." outta that.

It sounds pretty reasonable to me. The guy is going to be easier to work with and more likely to give us a hand if we actively make his life less of a living hell.
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I'm a little surprised that he hasn't just hooked Noburi's barrel up to an IV and started spamming shadow clones. It can be dangerous to take it too far, but then that's also true for borderline overdosing on Akimichi stims.



Evenstar said:
"Attend an ANBU InfoSec training course" sounds like it'd be a great plan.
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"The first rule of ANBU is that we do not talk about ANBU."​
 
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[x] Ami Plan: One Assuredly Containing No Disastrous Oversights

MMKII said:
So my thoughts are that "Ami being Keiko's sister is a factor for us meeting with her" is blatantly obvious to her in some way or another, regardless of if we mention it or not. So just saying "We're not really here to talk about it." suffices to convey this then?
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I don't think "we're not here to talk about it" necessarily conveys that it is an important thing for us. And I think stating, if asked, that that's partially why we're here says something as well. Ami may think she knows that being Keiko's sister has something to do with it, but Hazou explicitly stating it also has impact, and one I wouldn't mind seeing spelling out. We've certainly over- specified things less important. We don't actually know what Ami thinks of us, or Keiko, and HDK for sure.
 
- okay, time to make an alternate plan. The current one isn't doing it for me.

[ ] Protoplan Fae Visit (337 Words):
Safety:
- Treat this as an important negotiation, like Keiko did with the Pangolins.
- You can't lie reliably to a Mori social-spec. Be honest or silent.
- Don't tell her anything you wouldn't tell the hypothetical offspring of Rock Lee and Zabuza.
- Be prepared to like and respect her. That doesn't make you her ally.
- Similarly, don't let her bait you.
- Prepare a mental list of 100% safe topics beforehand, so that you'll have filler to let your brain catch up and your emotions cool down when you become flustered.
- Precommit to leaving if Ami tries to pry info out of you or invites a third party.
- Don't agree to any favours. You don't know what they might mean.
- Jaraiya is negotiating with the Mori. He gets to nitpick the plan as much as he wants.
- Don't even attempt to hide things from Jaraiya. He's your clan head and your Kage.​
Good First Impression:
- Put in some basic effort to look nice. Don't wear clothes that would associate you with a faction.
- Gift her a ^_^ stamp.
- Gift her CCnJ, in repayment for her "floor is lava" training methods.
- Talk a bit about taking weird ideas seriously.​
Objectives:
- Attempt to figure out why Ami might want to separate Keiko from her clan.
- Don't discuss Keiko.
- Get Ami's thoughts on Uplift.
- Get a better understanding of Ami's personality.​
The Deep Questions:
- What are ninja for?
- What makes a good ninja?
- Are victory and humanity opposed?
- If they are, what should we do about it?
- Is real peace possible?
- Is peace enough to fix the world?
- How important are civilians, really?
- Are the things that make a good ninja the same things that make a good civilian?​
Good Last Impression:
- Give her a post-interaction survey.
- If all went well, try to arrange a way of verifying messages are from her.​
 
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- wait, shit

We developed CCNJ together with Keiko.

If we give it to Ami behind Keiko's back, she has perfect emotional blackmail material to drive a spike between Keiko and us.

Let us not do this thing.
 
To clarify, imagine what kind of stamp you personally would carve with no prior experience and within a handful of hours. That is also the position Hazō is in.
 
Evenstar said:
- okay, time to make an alternate plan. The current one isn't doing it for me.

[ ] Protoplan Fae Visit (337 Words):
Safety:
- Treat this as an important negotiation, like Keiko did with the Pangolins.
- You can't lie reliably to a Mori social-spec. Be honest or silent.
- Don't tell her anything you wouldn't tell the hypothetical offspring of Rock Lee and Zabuza.
- Be prepared to like and respect her. That doesn't make you her ally.
- Similarly, don't let her bait you.
- Prepare a mental list of 100% safe topics beforehand, so that you'll have filler to let your brain catch up and your emotions cool down when you become flustered.
- Precommit to leaving if Ami tries to pry info out of you or invites a third party.
- Don't agree to any favours. You don't know what they might mean.
- Jaraiya is negotiating with the Mori. He gets to nitpick the plan as much as he wants.
- Don't even attempt to hide things from Jaraiya. He's your clan head and your Kage.​
Good First Impression:
- Put in some basic effort to look nice. Don't wear clothes that would associate you with a faction.
- Gift her a ^_^ stamp.
- Gift her CCnJ, in repayment for her "floor is lava" training methods.
- Talk a bit about taking weird ideas seriously.​
Objectives:
- Attempt to figure out why Ami might want to separate Keiko from her clan.
- Don't discuss Keiko.
- Get Ami's thoughts on Uplift.
- Get a better understanding of Ami's personality.​
The Deep Questions:
- What are ninja for?
- What makes a good ninja?
- Are victory and humanity opposed?
- If they are, what should we do about it?
- Is real peace possible?
- Is peace enough to fix the world?
- How important are civilians, really?
- Are the things that make a good ninja the same things that make a good civilian?​
Good Last Impression:
- Give her a post-interaction survey.
- If all went well, try to arrange a way of verifying messages are from her.​
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Ami didn't gift Hazou any training methods. The players only know about them from having seen her thinking about them inside her own head. As far as Hazou knows, he independently came up with the idea during a particularly manic episode.



Velorien said:
To clarify, imagine what kind of stamp you personally would carve with no prior experience and within a handful of hours. That is also the position Hazō is in.
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Again, everybody, there is absolutely no reason that Hazou needs to carve the stamp himself. He can make a calligraphic design and then just pay a professional to etch it onto a nice stamp. Ideally, glass.
 
Lailoken said:
Ami didn't gift Hazou any training methods. The players only know about them from having seen her thinking about them inside her own head. As far as Hazou knows, he independently came up with the idea during a particularly manic episode.
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- ah. I was under the impression Keiko had told us about her sister's habits.

Well, scratch that then.
 
Evenstar said:
We developed CCNJ together with Keiko.
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Ami also developed a form of CCnJ for Keiko (because of course she did) and @Noumero's plan does not actually use it on Ami, just explains the theory about it.

Which isn't even meta-gaming because it is there as a reminder that we take care of Keiko without explicitly mentioning her. That it also reminds Ami of her time with Keiko (and possibly cause some unintentional guilt in her) is a nice bonus.
 
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Velorien said:
To clarify, imagine what kind of stamp you personally would carve with no prior experience and within a handful of hours. That is also the position Hazō is in.
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Not no experience.

Hazou has also carved other things for members of the Mori family. And in this case all he needs is something very blocky and therefore the easiest to carve.
Roomba said:
So the way I think about this is that Ami will be able to tell Hazou is lying whenever he does so. Part of the reason for the somewhat brutally honest approach in @Noumero's plan is that trying to hide irrelevant stuff will only give Ami leverage, and the honesty could even surprise her a bit.

However, we do need to lie about some things, by omission at minimum, and that's fine as long as we understand the consequences. When Hazou tells Ami "I wanted to meet the Mori prodigy", that's technically true, but obviously not the full story, and that's fine for Ami to know.

Does that sound ok? I don't think being completely truthful and telling her we'd like to reconcile her and Keiko will gain us anything.
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I don't expect being completely truthful, but similarly, I don't think any of us want to talk to her just because she's a prodigy -- it's not like we jumped to talk to Sasuke or Naruto when we first arrived in Leaf. Just find a different thing to say that is less dishonest. I don't think saying "I want to talk to you to get to know my step-sister" is necessarily bad or dishonest.

Or, alternatively, just shrug and be sardonically honest, saying with a shit-eating grin, "You're a wild card politically. Those are dangerous, you know."
 
KaGoGoGadgetMe said:
Can Keiko travel to the Seventh by herself, or does she need to be reverse summoned by somepang else?
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She needs a pangolin to 'carry' her back.

Kalkin said:
This wouldn't be insensitive? I'd assumed Naruto was the heir.
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Fair point. I hadn't considered him, and yes, Jiraiya might see it that way -- I'd need to talk to the others about it.

Roomba said:
So, how about that ^_^ stamp seal? @eaglejarl gave it the green light.
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Noumero said:
Noted. @eaglejarl gave ^_^-stamp approval, so I'll be putting it in. Is that fine?
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Recall that I also said it would look like crud because Hazō has no skill at carving.
 
I take it back. He should carve it himself instead of getting an impressive result by just doing the part he actually has the slightest skill in. -but, that's not taking it far enough. He also needs to manufacture the tools he uses to carve it. Though, before that, he's going to need to personally photosynthesize the wood out of carbon he personally fused from primordial hydrogen. This is important, people.
 
Lailoken said:
I take it back. He should carve it himself instead of getting an impressive result by just doing the part he actually has the slightest skill in. -but, that's not taking it far enough. He also needs to manufacture the tools he uses to carve it. Though, before that, he's going to need to personally photosynthesize the wood out of carbon he personally fused from primordial hydrogen. This is important, people.
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> using primordial hydrgogen he didn't even create himself by forging the raw axioms of physics ex nihilo
 
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