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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Twofold said:
Do you have a quote for that? Because I can't remember if no-handseals level was ever explicitly stated for MEW, I've been assuming it's 10. Level 8 doesn't universally mean no-handseals for every jutsu. (For Substitution and Zephyr it was 8 but Transformation for example requires 10...if I remember correctly.)
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This has been the subject of some QM discussion, and will doubtless be the subject of more because I'm not sure we have a firm consensus. Originally, it was only Substitution that could be done seallessly, to fit with its canon usage and general concept (vague though the latter is because Kishimoto). Since then, you've leveled Zephyr's Reach to 8 specifically for seallessness purposes, so I don't think it would be fair to retcon that, but I would firmly advise you not to count on anything else being raisable to sealless levels until we can put together an official statement.

The scene that keeps coming back in my mind is Zabuza needing 44 seals to use his water dragon against Kakashi. I feel confident in saying that if the technique could in principle be shortened any further, Zabuza would have been both able and willing to do it.
 
Velorien said:
This has been the subject of some QM discussion, and will doubtless be the subject of more because I'm not sure we have a firm consensus. Originally, it was only Substitution that could be done seallessly, to fit with its canon usage and general concept (vague though the latter is because Kishimoto). Since then, you've leveled Zephyr's Reach to 8 specifically for seallessness purposes, so I don't think it would be fair to retcon that, but I would firmly advise you not to count on anything else being raisable to sealless levels until we can put together an official statement.

The scene that keeps coming back in my mind is Zabuza needing 44 seals to use his water dragon against Kakashi. I feel confident in saying that if the technique could in principle be shortened any further, Zabuza would have been both able and willing to do it.
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Actually later the 3rd did it in 5 hand seals and the onlookers were all very impressed.
 
Twofold said:
Do you have a quote for that? Because I can't remember if no-handseals level was ever explicitly stated for MEW, I've been assuming it's 10. Level 8 doesn't universally mean no-handseals for every jutsu. (For Substitution and Zephyr it was 8 but Transformation for example requires 10...if I remember correctly.)

Anyway, I don't consider no-handseals to be that important for Earth Wall. Not using handseals will probably mean slower wall formation or higher chakra costs and those are really crucial if we want to use it in combat. It would be a nice bonus but I'm more interested in getting stronger walls that can deflect dangerous AoE jutsu (the ones that are dangerous for us are probably rolled above 10 dice) and can't be punched through that easily. If we want to put XP on Earth Wall we should get it to a competitive level fast.

Of course that's just me assuming that if we defend with Earth Wall against enemy jutsu we roll MEW level vs. Enemy Jutsu level (or MEW level vs. Enemy TacMov level for trapping purposes) and see who comes on top. No idea if it actually works like that.
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Hmmm. Well, I can only find another player referencing the level, not the primary source, but @Radvic references it at 10, so most likely I did misremember what level it's sealless at. (Also, see ninja'd by @Velorien.) In which case, what I would actually do with MEW is put 1 or 2 levels in it now, and save the rest of the XP for other stuff. And do our big push when we're not blowing so much XP on it in one go, and only assuming that there is an official word somewhere that it has a sealless level.

In terms of what sealless MEW is useful for if it exists, it would be hard to be sure of the precise tactics until we knew about the downside, but mostly it would be that we would be able to use it while we're engaged in taijutsu with the enemy; so those specific times are less likely to be about AoE jutsu and more about messing up the battlefield. Things that we could do to people while simultaneously trying to punch them:
  • Build a maze of unconnected ankle-high walls. We should come up with a couple of different configurations and practice the hell out of TacMoving in them (as should the rest of our team). Then let our opponent(s) trip over themselves while we beat them into the ground.
  • An instantaneous acceleration of 15 m/s (at level 8, about 30 mph for those of us who aren't so great at metric) is the same as being hit by something going that speed. Depending on the speed drop that sealless would bring, that could still be a significant jolt to someone standing with us if we built a wall underneath ourselves (with us knowing to jump at exactly the right time).
  • If we're outnumbered, build walls that bunch our opponents into smaller groups. They'll be able to TacMove around them, but we should have a few moments of taijutsu with fewer people. And of course, we can always repeat if we have enough capacity.
 
Velorien said:
The scene that keeps coming back in my mind is Zabuza needing 44 seals to use his water dragon against Kakashi. I feel confident in saying that if the technique could in principle be shortened any further, Zabuza would have been both able and willing to do it.
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To be fair, Zabuza was pissed off because Kakashi was copying his every movements. Maybe he cracked and made his 44 hand seal jutsu to prove Kakashi was just bluffing?
 
Velorien said:
This has been the subject of some QM discussion, and will doubtless be the subject of more because I'm not sure we have a firm consensus. Originally, it was only Substitution that could be done seallessly, to fit with its canon usage and general concept (vague though the latter is because Kishimoto). Since then, you've leveled Zephyr's Reach to 8 specifically for seallessness purposes, so I don't think it would be fair to retcon that, but I would firmly advise you not to count on anything else being raisable to sealless levels until we can put together an official statement.

The scene that keeps coming back in my mind is Zabuza needing 44 seals to use his water dragon against Kakashi. I feel confident in saying that if the technique could in principle be shortened any further, Zabuza would have been both able and willing to do it.
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Huh. I thought the official word was that any jutsu could be done without seals if you were good enough at it, but that left it incomplete somehow.

Like maybe water dragon needs seals to aim properly, or has a very limited range without them. Either way, he couldn't have actually hit Kakashi with it unless he used seals.
 
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Rising above the battlefield makes us a target and feels like a trap. 2/3rd of combat is ranged. We (or whoever we sub with) will have to deal with the attention of the enemies ninjutsu and Weapons users. Not only that, we can't punch from there. Save this XP for Hiding like a Mole technique, pls. Lets us run better, sneak better and landshark better.
 
Might as well level to 10 to discount the Hiding like a Mole technique when we get it. I personally like earth wall because it is actually a constructive use of chakra which is unusual in this death world. Not sure how extra levels makes it better however. At least not for fort building.
 
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RedV said:
Rising above the battlefield makes us a target and feels like a trap. 2/3rd of combat is ranged. We (or whoever we sub with) will have to deal with the attention of the enemies ninjutsu and Weapons users. Not only that, we can't punch from there. Save this XP for Hiding like a Mole technique, pls. Lets us run better, sneak better and landshark better.
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MEW is extremely useful for reasons other than rising above the battle. Construction, decoration, speed of use (important in blocking attacks). And I only barely stopped myself from being ninja'd by fictionfan.
 
fictionfan said:
Might as well level to 10 to discount the Hiding like a Mole technique when we get it. I personally like earth wall because it is actually a constructive use of chakra which is unusual in this death world. Not sure how extra levels makes it better however. At least not for fort building.
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Earth Wall can block ninjutsu that are not lightning, I guess. And you are right about boosting Earth XP there, though given the fact that Earth Clone boosts our taijutsu we might want to level that.

Cariyaga said:
MEW is extremely useful for reasons other than rising above the battle. Construction, decoration, speed of use (important in blocking attacks). And I only barely stopped myself from being ninja'd by fictionfan.
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I'm not saying it's not useful, but that particular application is not a shining example of its usability. And honestly, why are people all over what is at most a C-ranked ninjutsu just because it's all we have atm? We have jounin on our team, it's best to wait till we can unlock better Earth ninjutsu. Or find someone with Technique hacking.
 
Sleeps Furiously said:
Hmmm. Well, I can only find another player referencing the level, not the primary source, but @Radvic references it at 10, so most likely I did misremember what level it's sealless at. (Also, see ninja'd by @Velorien.) In which case, what I would actually do with MEW is put 1 or 2 levels in it now, and save the rest of the XP for other stuff. And do our big push when we're not blowing so much XP on it in one go, and only assuming that there is an official word somewhere that it has a sealless level.
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My memory of offical word we got was that pretty much every technique could become seal-less at level 10, with the exception of some non-combat techniques which became seal-less at lower levels. Zephyr's Reach was considered a non-combat technique, so became sealless at 8, MEW is a combat technique, so presumably would become sealless at level 10. That is where I got level 10 from. My memory is this came up when we met the three Yakuza ninja with our client and were talking about Noburi being able to summon water-whip. That said, I couldn't find the exact post or a reference in a document which said that, so it's possible I misinterpreted something to get there. That's where I've been working from though. It's beginning to sound like we shouldn't count on getting seal-less jutsu as easily as getting something to a higher level though.

That said, we can do the impossible with seals! All we need to do is make jewelry with seals inscribed on it which does each of our jutsus, then wear a ring for each jutsu we use. So, for instance, give Noburi a water-whip summoning ring, Keiko a Zephyr's Reach summoning ring, and Hazou a MEW summoning ring (even if it's just a basic defense). Alternatively, make a bunch of MEW summoning rings (all just basic stuff), and give them to our teammates so they can summon barrier walls if necessary.
 
Also, if sealless jutsu is mostly not an option, we could look at a tactic around having Akane and Hazou fight as a pair. They could taijutsu-bonus each other and, especially once we get Akane some fire jutsu, they could screen each other in the fight momentarily to let the other get a jutsu out in combat.
 
Voting is closed.

CounterBot by eaglejarl, version 1.2


Plan name: Action Plan: Village Get
Voters: @Cariyaga, @ChronOblivion, @faflec, @fictionfan, @HoratioVonBecker, @HyperCatnip, @Jello_Raptor, @MadScientist, @Radvic, @RedV, @Ridiculously Average Guy, @Rozencrantz, @Sigil, @Sleeps Furiously, @ThatOneCrazyChic
Num votes: 15


Plan name: Training Akane: The Fist of Civil Engineering v2
Voters: @ChronOblivion, @GoldenFalls, @Jello_Raptor, @MadScientist, @Muer'ci, @Radvic, @Sleeps Furiously, @Twofold
Num votes: 8


Plan name: Training Hazou: Deception Deluxe
Voters: @Cariyaga, @fictionfan, @HyperCatnip, @MadScientist, @Muer'ci, @Twofold
Num votes: 6


Plan name: Training Keiko: Nope
Voters: @ChronOblivion, @HyperCatnip, @Jello_Raptor, @Muer'ci, @Sleeps Furiously, @Twofold
Num votes: 6


Plan name: Heist
Voters: @HyperCatnip, @Inf0mercial, @Muer'ci, @WheelbarrowWight, @will408914
Num votes: 5


Plan name: Training Noburi: Smooth Operator with Control
Voters: @ChronOblivion, @MadScientist, @Radvic, @Sleeps Furiously, @Twofold
Num votes: 5


Plan name: Action Plan: Boring Bargaining
Voters: @Citrus, @Traiden, @Twofold, @WheelbarrowWight
Num votes: 4


Plan name: Training Hazou: Exploding Walls
Voters: @ChronOblivion, @fictionfan, @MadScientist, @Sleeps Furiously
Num votes: 4


Plan name: Training Hazou: Nope
Voters: @HyperCatnip, @Jello_Raptor, @Radvic, @Sigil
Num votes: 4


Plan name: Training Hazou: Preparing for heist
Voters: @fictionfan, @HyperCatnip, @Radvic, @Sleeps Furiously
Num votes: 4


Plan name: Training Hazou: Deceptive Punching
Voters: @fictionfan, @Muer'ci, @Twofold
Num votes: 3


Plan name: Training Noburi: Smooth Operator
Voters: @Jello_Raptor, @Muer'ci, @Twofold
Num votes: 3


Plan name: Action Plan: Heist
Voters: @RedV, @Rozencrantz
Num votes: 2


Plan name: Action Plan: Sneaky ninjas who sneak and ninja
Voters: @ClawClawBite, @Orisha91
Num votes: 2


Plan name: Reminiscence
Voters: @HoratioVonBecker, @will408914
Num votes: 2


Plan name: Training Akane: Close Combat Specialist
Voters: @Cariyaga, @Radvic
Num votes: 2


Plan name: Training Akane: The Fist of Civil Engineering
Voters: @Muer'ci, @Twofold
Num votes: 2


Plan name: Training Hazou: Battlefield Control
Voters: @Radvic, @Sleeps Furiously
Num votes: 2


Plan name: Action Plan: Open Your Country, I mean Gate
Voters: @Traiden
Num votes: 1


Plan name: Iron Nerve: Explosive Square
Voters: @Sigil
Num votes: 1


Plan name: Training Akane: Nope
Voters: @HyperCatnip
Num votes: 1


Plan name: Training Hazou: Storage Seal Research
Voters: @faflec
Num votes: 1


Plan name: Training Hazou: Taijutsu Instructor
Voters: @Radvic
Num votes: 1


Plan name: Training Keiko: Somebody's gotta keep watch!
Voters: @Radvic
Num votes: 1


Plan name: Training Noburi: Nope
Voters: @HyperCatnip
Num votes: 1


Plan name: Training Noburi: Wandering Healer
Voters: @fictionfan
Num votes: 1



Number of voters: 25
 
will408914 said:
Lying to an enemy with higher deception than us springs to mind.
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Lying? I was intending to tell the truth. There are some things in our memories and our Iron Nerve that don't quite add up, we're being properly paranoid, and keeping secrets from the people you rely on, about them, is a bad idea.
Velorien said:
I'd normally avoid explaining such things OOC, but basically this, reinforced by a certain amount of "does not compute" from twelve-year-old boys in regard to their first encounter with homosexuality.
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I see. Could you maybe make it clearer in the text? Hazō, going by his willingness to recognize the problems in his and Noburi's dynamic, really doesn't seem like he'd just forget Keiko's admission, or Noburi's own crush, for that matter.
Twofold said:
Apparently we can turn MEW into a seal design if we research it. Then we just need to combine it with a flashbang and we'll have The One Wall Seal that produces an actual wall that blinds you.

That almost sounds like a practical idea. People will inevitably be tricked to look at a big wall raising from the ground and the flash effect will be far more effective if they look at it straight. Plus you'll have a nice big wall.

Not sure if it's worth the research time. Then again, a flashbang and a standard wall seal sound like good research projects and The One Wall would only be a combination of those two.
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If you've read Lighting Up the Dark, we could emulate Naruto's Dimensional Prison technique very effectively. Hey, @AugSphere, what level does Multiple Earth Wall have to be for us to make circular ones?
 
Out of curiosity I went back and checked. The voting round after Snipe Hunt was 190 replies long from update to the end of voting.

The voting round that just ended was 297 replies long. My gut feeling is that we also stayed in-topic way better this time around. I think we also got some new voters? I could be wrong about that.

So, um, yay us? I'm sure Jashin-sama will smile on us and bequeath his favor upon our efforts.
 
I had skimmed through the "Village Get" plan before, but I hadn't read it in detail. I sat down to start writing the update and I came across this line:

"Kagome work on making sure our mini-fort is safe. Maybe make more explosive seals if he thinks we need more?"


...really? Really? This is a thing you felt like you needed to ask? I am ashamed of all of you. Ashamed, I say. Of course you need more explosives!
 
eaglejarl said:
I had skimmed through the "Village Get" plan before, but I hadn't read it in detail. I sat down to start writing the update and I came across this line:

"Kagome work on making sure our mini-fort is safe. Maybe make more explosive seals if he thinks we need more?"


...really? Really? This is a thing you felt like you needed to ask? I am ashamed of all of you. Ashamed, I say. Of course you need more explosives!
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I added that line partially for the humor, and partially for properly bonding with Kagome.
 
HoratioVonBecker said:
I see. Could you maybe make it clearer in the text? Hazō, going by his willingness to recognize the problems in his and Noburi's dynamic, really doesn't seem like he'd just forget Keiko's admission, or Noburi's own crush, for that matter.
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I'll think about it, but there's the problem that you can't just have a character go "oh, hey, there is something of which I remain unaware".
 
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