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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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@MMKII, @Cariyaga, @Oneiros: I finally figured out how to articulate the problem I have with trying to fix Hazou's mental state the way that some of your plans try to. I'm working on my plan right now, and realized that there was a comment in it that should actually just be in its own post. So here it is:

I'm not explicitly including dealing with his personal issues around Akane here because IT WOULD JUST BE ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF HAZOU/THE HIVEMIND NOT RESPECTING THE AGENCY OF OTHERS. Imagine what it would be like to be Hana for a second:
  • Hana gets to where her son lives, clearly in a state of impatience or anxiety, so she can be with/around her beloved son.
  • He does drags you away, and then spends the next few hours talking about his own problems.
  • Hana would be tired, wanting to just affirm her bond with her, wanting to get to know each other again, and generally just appreciate being in each other's presence.
  • There would also be fear that those bonds have eroded over time, and anxiety about how fragile their relationship actually is right now.
  • When Hazou starts putting all his troubles on your shoulders, you'd probably feel a bit relieved that he's still treating you like his mother and confidant. But I think Hana would also feel a bit used, treated like an advice/therapy box and not a person.
  • This gets worse when Hazou actually starts talking about the specific problem, and how he has issues with respecting agency. Hana could point out that he's failing to respect agency right now, but she's already afraid that her relationship with Hazou is fragile, and what if mentioning this hurts their trust? What if he needs her support and she lets him down?
  • Mind most of the above would just be sub-concious emotions which Hana probably wouldn't directly notice, just this reinforcement of her anxiety in ways that hurt our relationship. It might not happen in exactly this way, but I'd expect something similar to happen.
  • Attempting to help Hazou by forcing his problems down Hana's throat is fraught and puts an unreasonable amount of tension on Hana. It would run counter to our (the player's) actual goals for character development.
Trying to 'fix' Hazou in a span of a few hours with Hana wouldn't be a compel by a QM. It would be entrenching the very thing we are trying to fix because the players/plan-writers lack self awareness.

We shouldn't be trying to fix a mistake by repeating it.
 
Jello_Raptor said:
@MMKII, @Cariyaga, @Oneiros: I finally figured out how to articulate the problem I have with trying to fix Hazou's mental state the way that some of your plans try to. I'm working on my plan right now, and realized that there was a comment in it that should actually just be in its own post. So here it is:

I'm not explicitly including dealing with his personal issues around Akane here because IT WOULD JUST BE ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF HAZOU/THE HIVEMIND NOT RESPECTING THE AGENCY OF OTHERS. Imagine what it would be like to be Hana for a second:
  • Hana gets to where her son lives, clearly in a state of impatience or anxiety, so she can be with/around her beloved son.
  • He does drags you away, and then spends the next few hours talking about his own problems.
  • Hana would be tired, wanting to just affirm her bond with her, wanting to get to know each other again, and generally just appreciate being in each other's presence.
  • There would also be fear that those bonds have eroded over time, and anxiety about how fragile their relationship actually is right now.
  • When Hazou starts putting all his troubles on your shoulders, you'd probably feel a bit relieved that he's still treating you like his mother and confidant. But I think Hana would also feel a bit used, treated like an advice/therapy box and not a person.
  • This gets worse when Hazou actually starts talking about the specific problem, and how he has issues with respecting agency. Hana could point out that he's failing to respect agency right now, but she's already afraid that her relationship with Hazou is fragile, and what if mentioning this hurts their trust? What if he needs her support and she lets him down?
  • Mind most of the above would just be sub-concious emotions which Hana probably wouldn't directly notice, just this reinforcement of her anxiety in ways that hurt our relationship. It might not happen in exactly this way, but I'd expect something similar to happen.
  • Attempting to help Hazou by forcing his problems down Hana's throat is fraught and puts an unreasonable amount of tension on Hana. It would run counter to our (the player's) actual goals for character development.
Trying to 'fix' Hazou in a span of a few hours with Hana wouldn't be a compel by a QM. It would be entrenching the very thing we are trying to fix because the players/plan-writers lack self awareness.

We shouldn't be trying to fix a mistake by repeating it.
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Damn. That's a good point, and well-made.
 
@Jello_Raptor

Would you prefer that we ask Hana first? I'm sort of at a loss for how to implement this in a satisfactory way here.

I can take out the "Travel to the Holage monument" bit if that eases the presumptiousness.
 
[X] A Very Simple Plan

Hana
  • Introduce Hana to the clan.
  • When asked about missing clan members, remember OPSEC and let Mari handle it.
  • Ask Mari and mom not to fight at least this evening.
  • Confide in mom about girl problems

A Very Secret Mission
  • Hazō got a sense of a huge thing potentially going down.
    • He proceed to draw skywalker seals this evening. Then implosion seals. Then whatever he deemed potentially useful in a battle.
    • Ask Kagome to assist. Remember OPSEC.
 
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[X] A Very Simple Plan... with cookies

Hana
  • Introduce Hana to the clan.
  • When asked about missing clan members, remember OPSEC and let Mari handle it.
  • Ask Mari and mom not to fight at least this evening.
  • Invite Hana to join Hazou in baking OPSEC cookies to deliver to Kakashi (OBSERVE OPSEC), and confide in mom about girl problems

A Very Secret Mission
  • Hazō got a sense of a huge thing potentially going down.
    • He proceed to draw skywalker seals this evening. Then implosion seals. Then whatever he deemed potentially useful in a battle.
    • Ask Kagome to assist. Remember OPSEC.
 
Jello_Raptor said:
@MMKII, @Cariyaga, @Oneiros: I finally figured out how to articulate the problem I have with trying to fix Hazou's mental state the way that some of your plans try to. I'm working on my plan right now, and realized that there was a comment in it that should actually just be in its own post. So here it is:

I'm not explicitly including dealing with his personal issues around Akane here because IT WOULD JUST BE ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF HAZOU/THE HIVEMIND NOT RESPECTING THE AGENCY OF OTHERS. Imagine what it would be like to be Hana for a second:
  • Hana gets to where her son lives, clearly in a state of impatience or anxiety, so she can be with/around her beloved son.
  • He does drags you away, and then spends the next few hours talking about his own problems.
  • Hana would be tired, wanting to just affirm her bond with her, wanting to get to know each other again, and generally just appreciate being in each other's presence.
  • There would also be fear that those bonds have eroded over time, and anxiety about how fragile their relationship actually is right now.
  • When Hazou starts putting all his troubles on your shoulders, you'd probably feel a bit relieved that he's still treating you like his mother and confidant. But I think Hana would also feel a bit used, treated like an advice/therapy box and not a person.
  • This gets worse when Hazou actually starts talking about the specific problem, and how he has issues with respecting agency. Hana could point out that he's failing to respect agency right now, but she's already afraid that her relationship with Hazou is fragile, and what if mentioning this hurts their trust? What if he needs her support and she lets him down?
  • Mind most of the above would just be sub-concious emotions which Hana probably wouldn't directly notice, just this reinforcement of her anxiety in ways that hurt our relationship. It might not happen in exactly this way, but I'd expect something similar to happen.
  • Attempting to help Hazou by forcing his problems down Hana's throat is fraught and puts an unreasonable amount of tension on Hana. It would run counter to our (the player's) actual goals for character development.
Trying to 'fix' Hazou in a span of a few hours with Hana wouldn't be a compel by a QM. It would be entrenching the very thing we are trying to fix because the players/plan-writers lack self awareness.

We shouldn't be trying to fix a mistake by repeating it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Honestly, it's a fair point that Hazou shouldn't just immediately start ranting at Hana, though @MMKII's plan doesn't do that. More broadly though, I'm afraid I just fundamentally don't understand your point. I don't understand how Hazou wanting to confide in his mother and ask for her advice is somehow not respecting her agency. It's not like he'd be thinking "Oh good, a solution to my problems!".

As far as I'm concerned, this is what family members and close friends do for each other. Sometimes, a person just needs to get things off their chest, to rant, to complain, to give voice to their most personal fears and insecurities. And part of being a friend or a relative, is to sometimes sit on the other side, listen, and help to the best of your ability. I don't think this is in any way objectifying.

Hazou and Hana have the absolute unicorn of a healthy, loving and supportive familial relationship in the insane bundle of dysfunction that is the MfD-verse. They'll be fine.
 
[X] A Very Simple Plan... with cookies

MadScientist said:
What distinguishes OPSEC cookies from regular cookies?
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Multiple cookies that spell out OPSEC.
@Jello_Raptor

Okay, I agree that perhaps springing all this on Hana this very night and maybe this very instant (which we are not doing) could potentially be extremely inconsiderate.

I vehemently disagree that having a 14 year old confide his problems to his mother is somehow a lack of respect for her agency. I don't really know how to phrase the content of my objection, other than that this is not a thing a 14 year old should be concerned about in general, barring extreme circumstances. Like, ever.

There is having a stiff upper lip and there is not telling your mother about Serious Problems. This is much more in the later category IMO.
 
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Okay, let's try again with the slightly modified plan format and see how it works out.

Some quick notes:
  • Comments are in grey or in spoilers marked "Comment:".
    • Comments are not part of the plan, and exist to help coordinate with other players and provide a better understanding of what the plan author is trying to do.
Word count: 254 (incl. comments 888)

[X] Action Plan: A much needed reunion


Spend FP to resist compels.

Introduce Momma
  • Hug Momma.
  • Introduce her to everyone there.
  • Pay attention to tension between her and Mari.
  • Make excuses to spend time with Hana, ask for privacy.
    • You'll be back for dinner.
Spend Time with Mom
  • Find a spot in the clan compound to talk.
  • Contingencies
    • Keep up OPSEC
    • Minimize lies.
    • Tell her "Well, the official story is ..." when needed.
    • Try to relax around Momma, let down what walls you can.
  • Sometime before dinner, talk about Mari.
    • Hazou worries about if Hana resents Mari.
    • Please play nice, for Hazou's sake.
    • Mari wants the best for Hazou too, and to please try and forgive her.
  • Go eat dinner as a group.
    • Play peacemaker/reassure both Mari and Hana as needed.
    • If you need a topic, stories about game nights.
  • Catch up (before and/or after dinner) talk about:
    • Missing each other.
    • Life since leaving Mist (w/o OPSEC breaches), for both of them.
    • Feelings about all of this.
    • Reminisce about childhood.
    • Enjoy yourself, let momma talk about her stuff too.
      • Don't let her deflect about feelings.
      • You want to support each other, not just let her support you.
  • Make sure to tell Momma that you want some advice from her when she's up to it.
    • Probably not right now/today, but when she has some time in the next few days?
    • About relationships, being a good person, and Iron Nerve stuff you might not have had a chance to learn.
  • If there's time, bake cookies with Momma.
  • Go to bed.

Spend FP to resist compels.


Introduce Momma
  • Hug Momma.
  • Introduce her to everyone there.
  • Pay attention to tension between her and Mari.
    • Idea is to keep this interaction quick and and end it soon enough that there's nothing to intervene in. Both Hana and Mari are civil enough to get through a bit of small talk, and discussing their relationship is not something that is done in front of others. Especially when both will be as tense as they are.
  • Make excuses to spend time with Hana, ask for privacy.
    • You'll be back for dinner.
Spend Time with Mom
  • Find a spot in the clan compound to talk.
    • Given that Hana is probably being watched by ANBU or something, leaving the compound to find a secluded space is likely to backfire. Here we at least have the protection of Jiraiya's status, the awareness of our family, the security seals, and the like.
  • Contingencies
    • Keep up OPSEC
    • Minimize lies.
    • Tell her "Well, the official story is ..." when needed.
      • This way Hana knows what she's supposed to believe, but also that it might not be the entire story.
    • Try to relax around Momma, let down what walls you can.
  • Sometime before dinner, talk about Mari.
    • Hazou worries about if Hana resents Mari.
      • We know Hana deeply dislikes that fact that Mari helped orchestrate the Noodle Incident, from the chance they got to talk to each other during the exams.
      • Speaking as a reader, I don't think she's wrong, but keep in mind that Mari is going to be especially sensitive to this resentment. She feels bad about what she did, she doesn't feel like she really can be a mother or even a good influence. She's been getting better, but frankly ...
      • I feel like Mari will fold fast in front of Hana. I mean this is the person who is actually Hazou's mother, and was clearly a good one. Mari took Hazou away from that, and sure it's worked out so far, but Mari will be intensely aware of all the ways it could have gone worse.
      • At some level I expect that Mari has been/will measure herself against Hana, and in her own mind will come out as the villian.
      • Between that dynamic and how Hazou clearly cares about Hana, I expect Mari to be very vulnerable to Hana's opinions and reactions.
    • Please play nice, for Hazou's sake.
    • Mari wants the best for Hazou too, and to please try and forgive her.
  • Go eat dinner as a group.
    • Play peacemaker/reassure both Mari and Hana as needed.
    • If you need a topic, stories about game nights.
  • Catch up (before and/or after dinner) talk about:
    • Missing each other.
    • Life since leaving Mist (w/o OPSEC breaches), for both of them.
    • Feelings about all of this.
    • Reminisce about childhood.
    • Enjoy yourself, let momma talk about her stuff too.
      • Don't let her deflect about feelings.
      • You want to support each other, not just let her support you.
  • Make sure to tell Momma that you want some advice from her when she's up to it.
    • Probably not right now/today, but when she has some time in the next few days?
    • About relationships, being a good person, and Iron Nerve stuff you might not have had a chance to learn.
  • If there's time, bake cookies with Momma.
  • Go to bed.
I'm not explicitly including dealing with his personal issues around Akane because IT WOULD JUST BE ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF HAZOU/THE HIVEMIND NOT RESPECTING THE AGENCY OF OTHERS. Imagine what it would be like to be Hana for a second:
  • Hana gets to where her son lives, clearly in a state of impatience or anxiety, so she can be with/around her beloved son.
  • He does drags you away, and then spends the next few hours talking about his own problems.
  • Hana would be tired, wanting to just affirm her bond with her, wanting to get to know each other again, and generally just appreciate being in each other's presence.
  • There would also be fear that those bonds have eroded over time, and anxiety about how fragile their relationship actually is right now.
  • When Hazou starts putting all his troubles on your shoulders, you'd probably feel a bit relieved that he's still treating you like his mother and confidant. But I think Hana would also feel a bit used, treated like an advice/therapy box and not a person.
  • This gets worse when Hazou actually starts talking about the specific problem, and how he has issues with respecting agency. Hana could point out that he's failing to respect agency right now, but she's already afraid that her relationship with Hazou is fragile, and what if mentioning this hurts their trust? What if he needs her support and she lets him down?
  • Mind most of the above would just be sub-concious emotions which Hana probably wouldn't directly notice, just this reinforcement of her anxiety in ways that hurt our relationship. It might not happen in exactly this way, but I'd expect something similar to happen.
  • Attempting to help Hazou by forcing his problems down Hana's throat is fraught and puts an unreasonable amount of tension on Hana. It would run counter to our (the player's) actual goals for character development.
 
Jello_Raptor said:
Some quick notes:
  • Comments are in grey or in spoilers marked "Comment:".
    • Comments are not part of the plan, and exist to help coordinate with other players and provide a better understanding of what the plan author is trying to do.
Word count: 254 (incl. comments 888)
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I'm echoing @Kiba 's objection to the wordcount (my own critique of your rationale outstanding) that we should definitely not abuse the word count like this. This is going to be negative XP, to the tune of -2 or -3.
 
Kiba said:
@Jello_Raptor Please don't rule lawyer the wordcount incentive.
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MMKII said:
I'm echoing @Kiba 's objection to the wordcount (my own critique of your rationale outstanding) that we should definitely not abuse the word count like this. This is going to be negative XP, to the tune of -2 or -3.
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*sigh*

You do realize that not only did I include the stripped version immidiately after the vote mark, so the QMs don't even have to look at the comments, but also the word counts for both cases are included?

The comments are for the other players, so that we can explain design choices, and don't have the usual rigamarole about good ideas being discarded because nobody explained why they're good, or because the reasoning is in a post two pages away from the actual plan the nobody looks like.

Not to mention criticism is easier when there's reasoning to criticize.

Frankly, I don't put much stock in these objections when it would take literally no effort to just copy the (already provided) stripped version of the plan, ask the QMs their thoughts on the matter, or half a dozen other responses that would actually be productive.

MMKII said:
@Jello_Raptor

Okay, I agree that perhaps springing all this on Hana this very night and maybe this very instant (which we are not doing) could potentially be extremely inconsiderate.

I vehemently disagree that having a 14 year old confide his problems to his mother is somehow a lack of respect for her agency. I don't really know how to phrase the content of my objection, other than that this is not a thing a 14 year old should be concerned about in general, barring extreme circumstances. Like, ever.

There is having a stiff upper lip and there is not telling your mother about Serious Problems. This is much more in the later category IMO.
Click to expand...
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Good job, you managed to agree with the point I was actually making, then rant about a strawman.

My plan makes sure Hana knows there's stuff to talk about so that we can, relatively rapidly, find a time to do so.

We should do it, but not today, there's social prerequisites that need to met for the conversation to be healthy for both Hazou and Hana.
 
Jello_Raptor said:
Good job, you managed to agree with the point I was actually making, then rant about a strawman.
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This is a potentially inflammatory phrasing of "I don't think you actually addressed my point." I am attempting to engage you in good faith. Would it kill to be a bit less snarky?

Perhaps I don't adequately understand the point you are making here. Would you care to elaborate? I would like to understand, so that if there is an issue with my plan then we can work to fix it.
My plan makes sure Hana knows there's stuff to talk about so that we can, relatively rapidly, find a time to do so.

We should do it, but not today, there's social prerequisites that need to met for the conversation to be healthy for both Hazou and Hana.
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As far as I see it, you make some possibly spurious assumptions after "Pretend what its like to be Hana for a minute."

I dispute that your mental model of her is accurate.

E: I was saying "perhaps" here, in the sense that I consider this possible but not likely.

E^2: I am/was also using the phrase "inconsiderate" to mean that I believe this is at worst a bit rude and not necessarily indicative of any agency disrespect in any sense.
 
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Jello_Raptor said:
Good job, you managed to agree with the point I was actually making, then rant about a strawman.
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Hey.

Can we head off unproductive arguments? I know it can be frustrating trying to get people to understand your points, and feeling misinterpreted or that others aren't doing their part. Still, good communication is hard enough as is without lashing out at the people you're trying to communicate with.

I think it's fair to say @MMKII is interested in hearing you out, and also wants to help solve our problems here wrt Hazou and avoid potential issues with Hana.
 
Jello_Raptor said:
The comments are for the other players, so that we can explain design choices, and don't have the usual rigamarole about good ideas being discarded because nobody explained why they're good, or because the reasoning is in a post two pages away from the actual plan the nobody looks like.

Not to mention criticism is easier when there's reasoning to criticize.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I might be slightly off the mark here, but I do believe a nontrivial part of the "low word count" initiative is also to make the planning process itself less of a barrier to participation. In that regard, adding comments is more of a mixed bag.

(E: Limited attention at present, ignore previous suggestion that was placed here.)
 
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Vecht said:
Hey.

Can we head off unproductive arguments? I know it can be frustrating trying to get people to understand your points, and feeling misinterpreted or that others aren't doing their part. Still, good communication is hard enough as is without lashing out at the people you're trying to communicate with.

I think it's fair to say @MMKII is interested in hearing you out, and also wants to help solve our problems here wrt Hazou and avoid potential issues with Hana.
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@Jello_Raptor
(To be clear: I am not upset or salty or anything)

My fundamental issue is that I'm not really sure I understand the point you are trying to make?

With respect to accomplishing this in a way that respects Hana's agency, does the following not suffice ( after general introductions, spending some time with everyone, and catching up in our room):

"Hey Mom. I know we haven't spent much time together recently, and I'm sorry to ask this... but I've been having some problems recently. Do you mind if I talk to you about them? If you are tired, we can talk about it tomorrow and just enjoy the rest of the night, and thats totally okay."

This seems like a perfectly mature and reasonable way to begin such an interaction (especially for a teenager) to me.

Are you arguing that any attempt to begin this conversation today/tonight is (in some way) a failure to respect Hana's agency, or otherwise damaging to their relationship?
 
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So... for those of you who have objected to a short plan for XP reasons...

This is the last chapter with a plan of the same type, back during the beach episode.

It got us 20 XP.
 
Potential edits, gauging the room temperature.

Perhaps the plan (as is) is a bit too strong on "Mom pls halp these fucking problems holy shit I am a mess"

Proposed edits below, seek to just catch up Hana on what we've been up to. The good, and the bad (well, sorta, OPSEC) without just throwing all of our problems at her to solve.

How do people feel?
MMKII said:
Wordcount: 251
[X] Action Plan: Tonight We Fix the Kid

Spend FP to resist any compels.
Hazou maintains strict OPSEC despite his emotionally vulnerable state.

  • Quickly take Mom aside.
    • Explain how we would rather she be civil to Mari at least until tomorrow.
      • Please?
  • Introduce her to everyone!
  • Spend some quality time with Mom after dinner making OPSEC "cookies".
    • We should have acquired the ingredients
  • Come home and chill in your room with Hana.
    • Put up air domes in case of emotional outburst.
  • Catch up:
    • Talk about your team.
    • Give her highlights of your adventures (keep OPSEC in mind!)
    • Explain your dream of uplift, concrete steps made in bringing it into reality.
  • Ask Hana if she minds if you talk to her about some problems you've been having.
    • If not or if shes tired then its totally okay to talk about them later.
      • Really, it is.
  • Talk about:
    • Pressure your goal put on your shoulders.
    • Recent doubts about morality of your actions (OPSEC: No specifics!).
    • Trouble with: social interactions, respecting agency of others.
    • Break-up with Akane, which made you: feel miserable, start lashing out at close friends or strangers.
    • Mist spared no effort in making your life hell during the exams (proctors)
  • Reflect on how you've been a bit unfair to your friends and family lately.
  • Reflect on your thoughts regarding Tsunade at yesterday's dinner:
    • Several issues: reduce Tsunade to a political tool, demonstrate willingness to sacrifice international medical work for more power, put your dream as the most important thing.
  • Hug Momma.
  • Thank her for being there.
  • Go to bed.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
@MMKII Does your model of a loving mother who hasn't seen her child more than 30 minutes at a time in years respond to

  • Ask Hana if she minds if you talk to her about some problems you've been having.
    • If not or if shes tired then its totally okay to talk about them later.
      • Really, it is.

with anything other than "yes of course" regardless of how she's feeling?
 
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