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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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fictionfan said:
I have no idea what you are arguing for. I am arguing for lethal traps on 3 sides. Your suggestion seems best for the non-lethal traps on the 4th side.

On the lethal sides we want the clones to die in a awesome way to stop people from following them.
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The plan is to build layers of circular trap fields interspersed with circular walls/obstructions.


My last proposed defense construction planz(NOTE; I dont think we're doing the exploding MEW)
(@Cariyaga )
MMKII said:
Yes but I consider having 1/3 to 1/2 of them underground pretty much a done deal from our perspective. Way too juicy not to pass up.

Panashe trivially detected and took out a pile of 9 of these guys while they were sitting underground and unawares. Now, special circumstances aside: I think this will go similarly if they're tunneling towards us, especially if Paneru has defenses set up and we have another Pangolin or some more ninja assisting Panashe in this.

My plans for Round 2:


Rough picture of Round 2 Defenses v 3.1
Notes: The above trapfields span multiple zones. I have cut down on some so that a) we have enough to trap all of this and b) this doesn't take 10 years.


Plan Alpha:
-Obvious defensive strategy: We act as if we actually have to hold the building and optimize to this end.
-We spend 1-2 rounds of combat or so at each layer of defense. Retreat tactically, set things to blow off (babby explosive tag or Goo Bomb loaded MEWS)
-Prioritize our own safety over enemy losses (but aim for the later as much as possible)
-We will try to full out counter the underground assault with a mix of combatants + Pangolins (Panashe, Pankurashun?) fighting in Paneru's underground defenses
-If there are roughly ~6-9 left (contingent on not all of these being Super Strong Ringers like Touma or Pikachu or Wakahisa or something) then we try to actually fight them in the facility a bit.
-In a perfect world with dice on our side this day, this could actually be enough. Otherwise, continue:
Plan Beta:
-Send earth clone to Air Dome + Earth Dome + Air Dome the lockbox (and or 5SB).
- - This buys us ~20 minutes.
- We fuck off via prearranged tunnel.
- Come back around to their back lines
- Drain anyone in the outer zones (ISC at least is supposed to be here. Drain them. We can refill them afterwards. If we don't succeed at this point the gambit is fucked anyway.)
- Summon MOAR Pangolins
- Take out people likely to be there (Pikachu, Kiri, Wakahisa #2, others)
- Move on the facility. Take out everyone left.
- If no one is drainable and there are no Wakahisa in the back lines, see Plan Gamma.
Plan Gamma:
- We have no extra pangolins, likely low on chakra, likely low on safe explosives:
- Youthenize all tree walls and abbatisses still standing to create rings of fire further trapping and demoralizing everyone.
- Come in from the back lines, spamming earbusters, pangolin pepper macerators, and any and all goo bombs to take out enemy.
- Resort to vanilla CQC and ranged support.


Contingency Kagome:
- An out of context problem has destroyed every possible way of executing the above (Likely at the Plan Beta stage).
- We resort to our SOP for battles: explosions and hellfire (try not to kill anyone).
- Blow the shit out of the facility in the outwards facing direction.
- Launch all AOE nonlethal seals in the confusion.
- Start putting fist to face and pray it is enough.


Comments & Criticism welcome. Please and thank you :D:D
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faflec said:
I had assumed that you, having read @Waffle's post, believed that our enemies would send out clones to test a <hypothetically non-lethal> goo minefield and trip the traps, resulting in our net loss of material (they lose 15CP in clones, we lose Goo Bombs). My rebuttal to that argument was that we could put preliminary traps that could disable clones but didn't cost us a lot (e.g., pitfalls, tripwires), thus allowing us to prevent clones from detonating goo bomb traps without costing us much. Thus making a goo minefield (with extra stuff) viable.
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No my argument is that forcing them to attack from only one side is to our significant advantage. It means that we can add far more redundancy on that one side when it comes to non-lethal traps.

I was responding to the idea of people testing the lethal traps and dieing and said that they would use clones. If idiots did not think of it Shikamaru would suggest it or even do it first.
 
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fictionfan said:
No my argument is that forcing them to attack from only one side is to our significant advantage. It means that we can add far more redundancy on that one side when it comes to non-lethal traps.
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This can be accomplished WITHOUT lethal traps that blow everyone into chunky salsa.

Your argument on clone spam works the same for lethal trapfields by the way
 
MMKII said:
This can be accomplished WITHOUT lethal traps that blow everyone into chunky salsa.

Your argument on clone spam works the same for lethal trapfields by the way
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Oh, I see you believe that non-lethal traps are a sufficient deterrent to force everyone to attack from one side where we will have no traps? Is that your position?
Edit: Not that can't be it. You talk about using non-lethal traps on that side as well so I must still be misunderstanding you.
 
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fictionfan said:
Oh, I see you believe that non-lethal traps are a sufficient deterrent to force everyone to attack from one side where we will have no traps? Is that your position?
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...yes?

I mean, the logic is that nonlethal traps would still be damaging enough that it would deter people from attacking from that side, when compared to attacking from a *relatively* less-trapped location. In this situation, the difference between "kill the person" and "prevent the person from doing anything" is academic IMO.
 
Here's a question: Do we want them all to attack from the same side? I mean, if we can get Ka-goo-me technique to work somehow, that'd be fine in that context, but if we get them to split up, we can defeat them in detail so long as our base is sufficiently-well defended.
 
faflec said:
...yes?

I mean, the logic is that nonlethal traps would still be damaging enough that it would deter people from attacking from that side, when compared to attacking from a *relatively* less-trapped location. In this situation, the difference between "kill the person" and "prevent the person from doing anything" is academic IMO.
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I don't expect that to work. The difference between full of non-lethal traps and less full of non-lethal traps is not a big enough difference to force attacking from one side.
 
fictionfan said:
Oh, I see you believe that non-lethal traps are a sufficient deterrent to force everyone to attack from one side where we will have no traps? Is that your position?
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Combined with ranged support? Yeah. Specifically, Goo Bombs serve very well for area denial. In a way that explosives do not.

I dont see why upping the boom rating solves anything. Theyre still one and done, and if the enemy really does feel like sitting around and clone spamming, they can still defeat this as well if they are willing to sacrifice a pile of clones. I dont see why your proposed counterattack cant be applied to the strategy you are promoting, basically.
 
Cariyaga said:
Here's a question: Do we want them all to attack from the same side? I mean, if we can get Ka-goo-me technique to work somehow, that'd be fine in that context, but if we get them to split up, we can defeat them in detail so long as our base is sufficiently-well defended.
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Multipronged attacks from multiple directions are a pain to deal with, since we have a limited number of actions and have to choose between multiple Zones-worth of enemies to fight. Limiting enemy combatants to a single direction (Zone, or group of Zones) allows us to maximize the effectiveness of our AOE, which is crucial to keeping them at bay.
 
MMKII said:
Combined with ranged support? Yeah. Specifically, Goo Bombs serve very well for area denial. In a way that explosives do not.

I dont see why upping the boom rating solves anything. Theyre still one and done, and if the enemy really does feel like sitting around and clone spamming, they can still defeat this as well if they are willing to sacrifice a pile of clones. I dont see why your proposed counterattack cant be applied to the strategy you are promoting, basically.
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The problem is that we then have no traps on that side. Also you underestimate the effect of fear. There are mine field with less then one bomb per 100 meters yet people do not walk on them to avoid the bombs. Known explosives are far more effective at area denial.
 
What about just saying that we'll be using explosive traps on those sides (instead of saying lethal), and using 0-strength explosive seals mixed with our nonlethal variants?
 
fictionfan said:
The problem is that we then have no traps on that side. Also you underestimate the effect of fear. There are mine field with less then one bomb per mile yet people do not walk on them to avoid the bombs. Known explosives are far more effective at area denial.
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Theyre not, because once they blow up theyre no longer there.

I dont see psychological effects as a valid point.

None of this is worth accidentally blowing someone up IMO, accidentally or otherwise.

Im not really gonna engage on this point further though.
 
I think our time is much better spent working on our plan for the base design rather than spending eight hours hashing over "lethal or not", tbh.
 
If they try to get rid of the traps by shear weight of clones or something else then you can never be sure that you have in fact gotten all of them. Even if a clone gets though it might have just missed the triggers. Furthermore we would prefer to have them all attacking the same side full of non-lethal traps.

Edit: Also we should add mist after the first few clones die to add uncertainty.
 
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fictionfan said:
Doesn't work that way. If it did we could just say at the beginning "Give up or we will kill you".
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It does work this way, and we could say this. But then everyone else will say it too, thereby defecting against the social contract of the Chuunin Exams and either cancelling the entire thing, or causing direct Mist intervention, or starting a genuine war.

It could work as a one-time thing by us, given our reputation (R1 performance, former missing-nin...), abilities (sealmaster), and circumstances (3 vs. 27). It could also crash and burn if someone decides to copy us.
 
Noumero said:
It does work this way, and we could say this. But then everyone else will say it too, thereby defecting against the social contract of the Chuunin Exams and either cancelling the entire thing, or causing direct Mist intervention, or starting a genuine war.

It could work as a one-time thing by us, given our reputation (R1 performance, former missing-nin...), abilities (sealmaster), and circumstances (3 vs. 27). It could also crash and burn if someone decides to copy us.
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There is a huge difference between putting down a trap warning and people about the trap then threatening people with death to corse action.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Waffle on Aug 17, 2018 at 5:31 PM, finished with 172 posts and 25 votes.
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So do we have any ideas for a working Ka-goo-me maneuver?

Oh, incidentally.

[X] Training Hazou: Awareness is the Key To Victory
Alertness 31 [31]
3.5 XP left
[X] Training Noburi: Be Sure to Never Let Your Guard Down
Alertness 31 [31]
Alertness 32 [63]
-0.5 XP left :(

@eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail Is our experiences over the past day enough to bump awareness up a bit? (Also, can Noburi use the bonus XP for voting Speech Yes for this?)
 
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So, if I understand the arguments right, here are the pros and cons:

Pros:
No lethal:
Everyone comes at us from one side.
That side can be made as small as we want , since if the enemies fall out of it they just get goo'd.
No risk of people dying.

Lethal:
Everyone comes at us from one side.
That side is still heavily trapped, just non lethal.


Cons:
No lethal:
The side everyone will be on will have no traps.
Tunnelers.

Lethal:
People might die.
The side people are on must be fairly wide to prevent people from accidentally falling out into the lethal zone.
Tunnelers.
 
MMKII said:
These people have two full consequences already so unless they really dont give a shit about their score (unlikely) nonlethal will be enough to take them out easily.

Obviously we're doing the speech.
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The issue is that there are classes of traps which we can use for lethal purposes which we cannot for non-lethal purposes. For instance, this lets us set up Force Wall decapitation traps, it lets us stick fire-log macerators on the edges of Lesser Barrier Formation, It lets use use Jiraiya's Banshee seals, it gets us more milage out of our explosive seals in general, letting us use the full strength ones for more than just clearing ground. Ultimately, it lets us utilize far more of our resources which would improve our defenses all around.

Mechanically, I suspect this would be represented by an additional aspect like "Pure Lethality" added to the lethal traps, while potentially allowing for another zone of traps that people need to travel through to account for us having more defenses available. This becomes highly relevant when we consider the magnitude of the opposition which we will be facing. Defense is significantly harder than offense, and the attacking teams will have more firepower than we had due to sheer volume. Additionally, anybody with any brains understands how strong we are now. If we say we're going full lethal and somebody doesn't pay attention, that's on them. Especially if we're excessively open about it. Now, an idiot might go for it anyways, but I think that's a position of strength we can stand in.

Similarly, doing the speech seems like a bad move to me for two reasons. First, as with the rational behind purely lethal traps, I think we will have significant opposition already, and so inciting more opposition seems counter to the goals of winning, especially when you consider the possibility of Shikimaru to just rampage as we did and capture Red Teams. Second, it changes the caliber of our interactions with foreign ninja. To me, it seems unnecessarily antagonistic, which goes directly against our goals of global cooperation, trade, and sealing. This will likely undermine future messages of peace which we bring in a way which not doing the speech would not. Admittedly, much of this would depend on what is covered in the speech, but I am hard-pressed to think of a speech which both insults people sufficiently to cause them to choose to gang up on us, while also not burning long-term bridges.

For these reasons, I think we should do full lethality -- and announce it vocally, but we should not do a speech prompting other to attack us, because I'm not sure we can take them (especially if we aren't going full lethality), and because I believe it will harm our long-term goals to needlessly antagonize like that.

Also, @eaglejarl I just wanted to say, I think this sort of "Yes - No" vote on clearly delineated issues is a great way to increase voter participation and shape discussion.
 
@OliWhail
The pangolin mentioned raising the facility with a thin layer of MEW (or MEW-like) for 5SB.

Does MEW from a building foundation not need to be 30 cm thick? How much Chakra does Hazō think it would take to raise the building over the course of, say, 10 min? The floor is about 10x17 m, so about 170 m^2. At a rate of about 2.85 m^3/6 bass CP (from memory, might be a tad off), this gives about 90 m^2 at 30 cm thick, so the whole floor needs just about all of 2 castings worth, or around all of Hazou's Chakra.

If pangolins have a MEW-like, that could help.
 
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