I'm not sure. I just know that Vecht is usually very intentional in stuff he says. If I had to guess, it may have been less directed at you than other people, in which case they wouldn't have necessarily cared, and being very... forthright about what he meant would help in that case.
I apologise if I'm wrong, but it sounds to me like you want him to turn into a sociopath. And while I do enjoy stories with sociopath/psychopath protagonists because of the novelty of reading unusual viewpoint-perspectives, that is very much not what I come to MfD for. I'd rather Hazou become more loving/personable/compassionate than less so.
Yes, this.
 
I apologise if I'm wrong, but it sounds to me like you want him to turn into a sociopath. And while I do enjoy stories with sociopath/psychopath protagonists because of the novelty of reading unusual viewpoint-perspectives, that is very much not what I come to MfD for. I'd rather Hazou become more loving/personable/compassionate than less so.
Nahh I don't want Hazou to become a sociopath at all. I want him to keep his idealism and passion. However I do not think that based on the way the hivemind plays that we will ever not be able to see everyone as just tools to help achieve our goals. What I do want Hazou to do is become more aware of this tendency.

Let's look at Hazou and Akane's breakup as an example of this.
"I don't really know," Hazō said. "Was it an agency thing? She wasn't happy that I acted like I had the right to tell her what to do. She said some things I didn't really understand about me seeing people as tools and her not wanting to live her life as an extension of mine." His voice tightened. "Which is nothing like the way I've treated her!"
To me this is the important thing. Hazou is oblivious to the fact that because of our influence he does basically act as if everyone himself included are tools. That is a very dangerous perspective to have. Since that's what led to the drama with Akane to begin with. Hazou can use people as long as he is constantly aware of what effects he is having on them.

During the lead up to our rampage Hazou was willing to use Kei and Noburi to establish a good cop bad cop routine. He was able to do this without hurting either of them because he was cognizant of how this plan affected there emotional state. He was able to lay the groundwork of a long lasting international coalition by showing them good faith and offering them long term benefits. He was able to have the proctor quake with fear. All of these are what makes up Dark! Hazou to me. The most important thing is a willingness to consider the consequences of what it will cost to achieve your goal and rationally deciding if you are willing to pay that price
 
Nahh I don't want Hazou to become a sociopath at all. I want him to keep his idealism and passion. However I do not think that based on the way the hivemind plays that we will ever not be able to see everyone as just tools to help achieve our goals. What I do want Hazou to do is become more aware of this tendency.

Let's look at Hazou and Akane's breakup as an example of this.

To me this is the important thing. Hazou is oblivious to the fact that because of our influence he does basically act as if everyone himself included are tools. That is a very dangerous perspective to have. Since that's what led to the drama with Akane to begin with. Hazou can use people as long as he is constantly aware of what effects he is having on them.

During the lead up to our rampage Hazou was willing to use Kei and Noburi to establish a good cop bad cop routine. He was able to do this without hurting either of them because he was cognizant of how this plan affected there emotional state. He was able to lay the groundwork of a long lasting international coalition by showing them good faith and offering them long term benefits. He was able to have the proctor quake with fear. All of these are what makes up Dark! Hazou to me. The most important thing is a willingness to consider the consequences of what it will cost to achieve your goal and rationally deciding if you are willing to pay that price

Alright, that's not as bad as my initial reading. I'm perfectly willing to have Hazou gain more self-awareness, so we're agreed on that part, at least.
 
That's great, but has little to do with my original point that you took upon yourself to "fix". I was arguing that people don't think about their relationships in terms of pure value exchange, and so reimbursing them materially for poor treatment won't necessarily prevent resentment. I'm talking about the psychology of relationships, not how they can be externally modelled.

Was actually responding to another quote by you but this one was more quotable. Apologies for confusion.

Tangentially, if you want to convince people that you're right about this, you may want to try to be less passive-aggressive about it. I happen to agree with the gist of your point, but found the delivery rather off-putting.

Pick your preferred response:

Apologies if I offended you; I was going for "humorous," not passive-aggressive. I don't really care to argue, just wanted to weigh in on the larger discussion. I concede that a more tactful approach would be closer to ideal for not ruffling people's feathers, and will be sure to more carefully consider such in the future.

I don't really care that much about convincing anyone of anything in particular, but I do acknowledge that an interaction occurred between us which could plausibly be construed by observers as a dominance/power play. Further I agree that within that framing, my actions were somewhat outside accepted social bounds and could be seen as treating you as an inferior and expecting a submissive response. (That was not my intention.)

However, I am modeling you now as reflexively implementing a counterstrategy to the percieved threat wherein you challenge the legitimacy of said action by appealing to the fact that, should I continue to display the same lack of tact in the future, I would make a poor ally, in a way that also constrains my response to either continuing to demonstrate the same fact, or making a gesture of submission myself.

As I care nothing whatsoever for this game, I'm happy to do the latter, if you prefer (see first response). I would prefer though to -- without unduely upsetting people -- be able to reason more transparently from (what I believe to be) more precise and more predictive models than what I've seen used in the thread thus far, as getting Hazou to make higher quality/less naieve decisions on this front is somewhat instrumental to larger goals.

It's easy to say "immensely complex" in front of your model, rather harder to actually do a satisfactory model.

I want to double like this but I can't.

Also
Part of their icon is an (iirc the meaning, + extrapolating back from an old one?) abstraction of chaos.

Chaos sneks might look scary but they aren't really all that dangerous.
 
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@eaglejarl @Velorien Did you guys anticipate when the quest started getting to the point where we were researching germ theory and chakra particles? :p

e: I know you did @OliWhail, but you joined later :p
Honestly, the only thing that I'm surprised about is that we're two years in and y'all haven't gotten started yet.


On the whole "Dark!Hazou" discussion (behold, my new phone lacks the ability to use macrons. Lovely.), has anyone here had the experience of being so angry that it became cold? I have, which is why I wrote the way I did, but based on the discussion I suddenly find myself wondering if its an unusual experience.
 
Honestly, the only thing that I'm surprised about is that we're two years in and y'all haven't gotten started yet.


On the whole "Dark!Hazou" discussion (behold, my new phone lacks the ability to use macrons. Lovely.), has anyone here had the experience of being so angry that it became cold? I have, which is why I wrote the way I did, but based on the discussion I suddenly find myself wondering if its an unusual experience.
I blame all the talk about lighthousing. Psssh.

Yes. It's very, very uncomfortable.
 
Honestly, the only thing that I'm surprised about is that we're two years in and y'all haven't gotten started yet.


On the whole "Dark!Hazou" discussion (behold, my new phone lacks the ability to use macrons. Lovely.), has anyone here had the experience of being so angry that it became cold? I have, which is why I wrote the way I did, but based on the discussion I suddenly find myself wondering if its an unusual experience.
I have experienced this as well.

IMO there is a threshold for violent (well, technically all emotions IMO, but with gentler ones its more like a zen than anything else)emotions like anger, fear or hatred etc where an extreme amount of that emotion slightly overwhelms your mental state and you default to a colder more detached version of that emotion.

With sufficient clarity freshness and / or amount of such emotionally charged memories, one can often enter this mental state with a few moments of prep.
 
Well, fortunately, now we have other clanners to drag us out of lighthousing if we start going too ham on researching.
 
Honestly, the only thing that I'm surprised about is that we're two years in and y'all haven't gotten started yet.


On the whole "Dark!Hazou" discussion (behold, my new phone lacks the ability to use macrons. Lovely.), has anyone here had the experience of being so angry that it became cold? I have, which is why I wrote the way I did, but based on the discussion I suddenly find myself wondering if its an unusual experience.
Yes. I hate that feeling. It usually comes up when violence is not the anwser, but you really want to anyway.
 
has anyone here had the experience of being so angry that it became cold?

Ice. An infinite plane, compressed to a single moment. A fractal of futures, frozen in time. Categorically listing every attack against The Enemy. Fists, feet, knife. Words, emotions, ego. Indirect methods of harm. Destroy or damage that which they care for. Destroy or damage their social foundation.

And before I get much further
I must

Lose.

And then I build a wall over it and let it fester like nothing happened, and respond with a smile on my face.Goddesses damn, retail is the birthplace of the worst coping mechanisms.
 
This is a test of the new keyboard that I just installed. Hey glide typing is pretty cool. And I can type macrons: Hazō. Win! Thanks, Google... Although, I'd be happier if you didn't try to collect my keystrokes. I'm not actually that comfortable using a keyboard that came from a company that makes its money by knowing everything about everyone and therefore has an incentive to spy on me, so I wish you wouldn't rub my nose in it.
 
This is a test of the new keyboard that I just installed. Hey glide typing is pretty cool. And I can type macrons: Hazō. Win! Thanks, Google... Although, I'd be happier if you didn't try to collect my keystrokes. I'm not actually that comfortable using a keyboard that came from a company that makes its money by knowing everything about everyone and therefore has an incentive to spy on me, so I wish you wouldn't rub my nose in it.

Good luck using the quick replace function while on SV if you swipe something and it almost gets it right. I don't even know how to define what the hell happens in that circumstance. I just end up having to backspace the entire bit of gibberish and manually type the word.

Sincerely,
-A purely mobile user.
 
So, gambit ideas so far (that I can recall), in order of use:
  1. Traps Shikamaru, et al, sets off (Goo Bomb, low-grade explosive to let us know they're coming)
  2. (as they approach) Explosive Log Intimidation (gives tags on mental 'injuries'), followed by Goo Storm Technique. This should take out anywhere between a third and half of them. Potentially more, depending on the effectiveness of Explosive Log Intimidation; it's possible it could knock people out of the fight through overflowing their mental stress pools.
  3. Generic Traps set by Paneru, et al, to be used by leading enemies into them for momentary advantage during fights (create aspect) or to break up an assault team momentarily as they stumble across them.
  4. Collapse the underground slightly as they pass the traps, enough to unsettle footing but not break bones, etc. (likely gives aspect, tags)
 
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So, gambit ideas so far (that I can recall), in order of use:
  1. Traps Shikamaru, et al, sets off (Goo Bomb, low-grade explosive to let us know they're coming)
  2. (as they approach) Explosive Log Intimidation (gives tags on mental 'injuries'), followed by Goo Storm Technique. This should take out anywhere between a third and half of them. Potentially more, depending on the effectiveness of Explosive Log Intimidation; it's possible it could knock people out of the fight through overflowing their mental stress pools.
  3. Generic Traps set by Paneru, et al, to be used by leading enemies into them for momentary advantage during fights (create aspect) or to break up an assault team momentarily as they stumble across them.
  4. Collapse the underground slightly as they pass the traps, enough to unsettle footing but not break bones, etc. (likely gives aspect, tags)
Also loudly bluffing that we're using lethal traps on one side of our defenses, with a proctor on hand to rule that if anyone falls prey to them it's their own stupid fault. Either they fall for it and attack from the other direction, or they call our bluff but we don't really lose much of anything.
 
I also think we'd actually be well off to create a firewall or regular wall -- not for protection, just to slow them down. Mechanically, it'd serve to increase the Border of the zone, meaning they'd have to use a sprint action to get over them; the supplemental to move zones wouldn't work.
 
I also think we'd actually be well off to create a firewall or regular wall -- not for protection, just to slow them down. Mechanically, it'd serve to increase the Border of the zone, meaning they'd have to use a sprint action to get over them; the supplemental to move zones wouldn't work.
Yes.

Also underground tunnel can be used for ambush purposes.
 
So, I'm not sure if this has been brought up before, but have we considered the possibility of being paired with a Mist squad that is intending to sabotage us in the heat of combat?
 
So, I'm not sure if this has been brought up before, but have we considered the possibility of being paired with a Mist squad that is intending to sabotage us in the heat of combat?
Not specifically a Mist squad, no; but the general idea based on previous discussion is to interrogate everyone that seems suspicious and chakra drain them if they seem untrustworthy for any reason.

OTOH based on Shikamaru's analysis of Ren's situation she wouldn't do that to us, as she needs our team to do well. Sabotaging us in this manner is...not a good idea, as it wouldn't have a logical benefit that we could exploit. Plus she needs Mist to look good too, and having a Mist squad get fucked with us is bad.
 
Not specifically a Mist squad, no; but the general idea based on previous discussion is to interrogate everyone that seems suspicious and chakra drain them if they seem untrustworthy for any reason.

OTOH based on Shikamaru's analysis of Ren's situation she wouldn't do that to us, as she needs our team to do well. Sabotaging us in this manner is...not a good idea, as it wouldn't have a logical benefit that we could exploit. Plus she needs Mist to look good too, and having a Mist squad get fucked with us is bad.

Yeah, I believe that, but how probable is a Mist squad deciding to do this on their own initiative, because "fuck traitors"?
 
Not specifically a Mist squad, no; but the general idea based on previous discussion is to interrogate everyone that seems suspicious and chakra drain them if they seem untrustworthy for any reason.

OTOH based on Shikamaru's analysis of Ren's situation she wouldn't do that to us, as she needs our team to do well. Sabotaging us in this manner is...not a good idea, as it wouldn't have a logical benefit that we could exploit. Plus she needs Mist to look good too, and having a Mist squad get fucked with us is bad.

If we do well, it makes Mist look good in spite of Mist trying to sabotage us every step of the way because the Mizukage can always point out that we're a Mist trained team paired to an elite Mist jonin.
 
I've been operating under the impression that we'll need to social consequence our round 2 partners into grudiging cooperation, or else confine them to chakra-drained quarters.
 
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