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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Roomba said:
I honestly have no clue what he's thinking here. His argument is that he can't be seen betraying people due to long-term effects on his clan's reputation, but it's going to be super obvious after round 2 that he, in fact, did betray the red teams, if everything goes our way.

I think we have some options in terms of preventing a multi-pronged attack. We could, for example, loudly announce that in the interest of making things easier for all the cowards from other villages, we're going to be leaving a nice and wide path towards our site, and littering the rest of the area with lethal traps. At least in principle, it'd be quite difficult to blame us for someone dying after walking into said traps afterwards.
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Well, never technically lying has some game-theoretic advantages (e. g., a reputation of upholding deals and following through on precommitments), so that part makes sense. As to his surface-level argument about not betraying allies, not sure.

Maybe he was just placating our teammates? His deal included leaving them their half-words and sparing them personally in R2. Perhaps he is perfectly willing to betray STR for us because of long-term advantages, but he thought he had to convince our temporary teammates that he never betrays, to buy their trust. It would make sense, especially if we're assuming that his hostile demeanor was an act too.

Regarding funneling STR's attack, not sure either. If someone dies, it will be a political disaster, were they suicidally stupid or not. And given the chaos of a ~40-ninja battle... I wouldn't risk it.

Edit: I mean, if we could have Jiraiya get all Kages to agree to it, like they did with the lockbox's defences...
 
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Roomba said:
If you can actually make the building useful defensively, then that's an option as well. We probably want the ability to retreat underground either way, and winning via attrition is doable in some circumstances.
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Agreed, though in my mind abandoning ship is the absolute last resort.
Roomba said:
That's still very much an if, though. The 5SB paint plans seem very speculative to me, and without that, there will inevitably exist gaps in the coverage. Fortifying the building to some extent will be necessary, but whether it'll be good enough for an effective defense remains to be seen.
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To me, making blast walls by slamming MEW constructs into Force Walls to cut them into sheets and then using them as indestructible panels behind the walls or ceiling seem like effective methods of forcing enemies to approach in specific ways, which I believe will work and doesn't require paint. What it *does* require is some prep time and chakra to fashion the MEW sheets. I'd like to spend some of the surplus chakra we get from Round 1 drains to prepare these sheets so we can stick them in storage seals and not need to worry about paint.
 
Roomba said:
The building itself needs to become an asset rather than a chain around our necks.
  • Once our external defenses are breached, and enemies reach the facility, we're sitting ducks inside. See the last two punching updates for a demonstration.
  • Solution should involve a tunnel underneath and turning the building itself into a trap somehow, I think.
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huhYeahGoodPoint said:
Enemy attack is from multiple directions/turn the building into an asset
  1. I'm lumping them together because they have the same solution; yield the building. Our goal is to defeat the enemy, not to hold onto the building forever, so if we take apart the individual enemy assaults and yield the building, their choices are to either come fight us outside the building or get penned up inside with zero preparation and getting ripped apart the exact same way. Living Roots can help us minimize the damage to our own structure.
    1. It is possible that they could decide to destroy our documents, though I don't think we've noted anyone else has means to do so safely like we do. In this case, we simply are much more aggressive in keeping people away from the building; the building itself will be the decisive engagement rather than any other place. Additionally, we can actually trap the immediate perimeter and slow the engagement down that way.
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Here's one of my ideas WRT protecting the documents and yielding the building:

Dictator4Hire said:
I was thinking of something similar: excavating and then creating an underground panic room to store the documents in in the event of an attack. We wouldn't have the documents in the room to start with because that would interfere with the normal operations of a T&I facility, but having a reliable way to safeguard our documents at a moment's notice is only sensible. To seal the documents away we should have our engineer Pangolin assist us so that as the documents in their secure filling cabinets (or w/e they are stored in) have entered the panic room said panic room then gets covered in literal tons of rocks. Once the event ends and we have to turn the documents back in to the proctors we can simply have Mr. Backhoes-for-Hands dig it out for us.

If we do the tunnel idea too though we will need to ensure a steady air supply. How many air purifier seals do we have? Could someone also do the math on exactly how large of an area we could sustain given, say only half of our supply with the other half as an emergency backup?

This is going to take a lot of math. We should get started now, tbh.
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Dictator4Hire said:
I see your point. How about as a backup plan to the Pangolin excavation we could cover the cabinet in explosive seals in such a way that it can blow off all of the debris on top of it and then have more seals on the bottom of it detonate so it flies up and out of the crater into the field next to where the original facility was located. Maybe the pangolin engineer could help us out with the math behind this or we could have people in the thread try to figure out just how much force we would need to pull all of this off. We might need to reinforce the cabinet with some heavy metal or rocks before trying this. However, just the image of Hazou standing calmly as the Mist proctors think they've finally got him only to see the cabinet literally rocket out of the ground to be beside him would be simply glorious.
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Dictator4Hire said:
It wouldn't be for people; just the documents.

I have no intention of repeating our blunder at Hidden Mountain where we almost died inside of that cave.
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To summarize:

Make a hidey hole for the documents underneath the cabinet in which they are normally stored. Have it set up in such a way that at the first sign of trouble the cabinet will fall into the hole and get covered with rocks (and if we feel them necessary, seals) to prevent the enemy from stealing them. Once the event is over excavate the cabinet with our trench digging Pangolin friends. Not having to worry (as much) about keep our documents secure means we have more people to assist us in fighting off our attackers. Also once the security measure has been activated it means the enemy has to fully commit to taking all of us out if they want to dig through the rubble to retrieve our documents rather than trying to use diversionary tactics to do a smash and grab.

If I was the enemy going up against the Goketsu I'd certainly favor a more subtle approach since those kids essentially curb stomped all of the other teams in the first half of this event. Just because we decided to do a blitzkrieg does not mean that all of the other teams will try to attack us in the same way.
 
Roomba said:
I absolutely disagree. What you're describing is pure insanity. At an estimate, it's going to be 24 of them against 3 of us +3-4 Pangolin. That is not winnable in any kind of fair engagement. Any strategy that involves moving out to fight them on their own terms is an instant loss. Forcing a decisive engagement, as you put it, is an instant loss outside of very specific circumstances. Like, we're talking about how to possibly win with all the advantages of prepared ground, and your solution to their waiting game is to abandon said prepared ground and fight on their terms. That will not work no matter what.

I do agree that abandoning the building will be a necessity at some point. But we can't abandon it by moving outside, or they'll pin us down and win through sheer numbers.
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I think that your model of how ninja combat works is wrong; it's been described multiple times as rocket tag, so so long as we can control their movement while they are unable to control ours, we will absolutely crush all of them, especially if we take advantage of how they've all taken Moderate Consequences and/or are intentionally trying to lose, further stack negative debuffs (by using Banshees), and hit the bunched up groups with big AoEs, up to and including Pankashuran's ability to launch jonin-tier Intimidation attacks. By controlling the engagement in this fashion, it is conceivable to me that we could daze our opponents enough to Kagome Goo Bomb and Syrup Trap our opponents, without necessarily needing Jiraiya Goo Bombs, using physical combat prowess to take down whatever pockets of resistance remain.

Like, we're demonstrating right now how bad of an idea it is to be required to hold ground, and if we can make them be required to hold ground, we will absolutely destroy them.
Roomba said:
Divided in three, one group is going to be 8-9 people, we'll have 6-7, Pangolins included. That is not a victory in one or two rounds, everything else being equal. I agree that this is down to mechanics, but it's difficult for me to believe that the math can work out in favor of this kind of strategy. And it doesn't make sense to me from a simulationist point of view either.
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It makes sense to me, considering how many advantages we're stacking up going into this; all of them have Moderate Consequences to begin with, there are very few people in the Exam that can properly keep up with our ludicrous combat ability to begin with, and those few that can are going to immediately find themselves fighting uneven odds after one round of another team having a lopsided matchup.
 
Roomba said:
I honestly have no clue what he's thinking here. His argument is that he can't be seen betraying people due to long-term effects on his clan's reputation, but it's going to be super obvious after round 2 that he, in fact, did betray the red teams, if everything goes our way.
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Shika tells Ino to mention stuff in a way that will get the other teams talking about attacking us. When that happens he uses some "reverse psychology" bs: "No, trust me, you really won't like the outcome if you do that" or somethings while staying honest.

Does SV's editor being a glitchy POS on mobile make anyone else unreasonable annoyed or is that just me?
 
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Cariyaga said:
On this note, does anyone have other ideas, and mechanics for the creativity?

I know @huhYeahGoodPoint had that collapsing the underground idea. I'm concerned about its lethality and propensity for breaking limbs -- after all, if someone's foot got caught in the collapse it'd break that for sure -- but it's the kind of ideas I'd like more of.

e: Might be able to refine it with Paneru's help, though, to make it work.
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During the break, Hazou needs to go around constantly putting his foot in his mouth, breaking opsec, insulting people, etc. Collect a ton of fate points that way, and be ready for round two. :p
 
huhYeahGoodPoint said:
I think that your model of how ninja combat works is wrong; it's been described multiple times as rocket tag, so so long as we can control their movement while they are unable to control ours, we will absolutely crush all of them, especially if we take advantage of how they've all taken Moderate Consequences and/or are intentionally trying to lose, further stack negative debuffs (by using Banshees), and hit the bunched up groups with big AoEs, up to and including Pankashuran's ability to launch jonin-tier Intimidation attacks. By controlling the engagement in this fashion, it is conceivable to me that we could daze our opponents enough to Kagome Goo Bomb and Syrup Trap our opponents, without necessarily needing Jiraiya Goo Bombs, using physical combat prowess to take down whatever pockets of resistance remain.

Like, we're demonstrating right now how bad of an idea it is to be required to hold ground, and if we can make them be required to hold ground, we will absolutely destroy them.

It makes sense to me, considering how many advantages we're stacking up going into this; all of them have Moderate Consequences to begin with, there are very few people in the Exam that can properly keep up with our ludicrous combat ability to begin with, and those few that can are going to immediately find themselves fighting uneven odds after one round of another team having a lopsided matchup.
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I'm going to be honest: Nothing short of a full simulated battle using FtD rules will convince me that this has any chance at all of working.

Right now, on the offense, with a numbers advantage, maximum abuse of the enemy's requirement to hold ground and the element of surprise, Hazou still took stress this update, and Keiko nearly did in chapter 196. We consistently lose on Initiative, and the consequence of having one's heel cut shouldn't affect that. You can talk about rocket tag all you want, we're not winning 3 vs 24 against roughly equally skilled opponents.

Dissonance said:
Shika tells Ino to mention stuff in a way that will get the other teams talking about attacking us. When that happens he uses some "reverse psychology" bs: "No, trust me, you really won't like the outcome if you do that" or somethings while staying honest.
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I guess anything can work in theory if you assume your enemies to be dumb enough.
 
Roomba said:
Right now, on the offense, with a numbers advantage, maximum abuse of the enemy's requirement to hold ground and the element of surprise, Hazou still took stress this update, and Keiko nearly did in chapter 196. We consistently lose on Initiative, and the consequence of having one's heel cut shouldn't affect that. You can talk about rocket tag all you want, we're not winning 3 vs 24 against roughly equally skilled opponents.
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TBF I'm pretty sure the Moderate Consequence we're giving out should give our R2 enemies Alertness penalties, considering how it was described as "It'll heel (er, heal) fine and they can even move around perfectly well...as long as they keep all their weight on the balls of their feet at all times and ignore a fair bit of discomfort. It would certainly interfere with combat and definitely counts as a Moderate Consequence." Personally think it would be rather distracting.
 
You know, why didn't we Slash their hands rather than their feet (or both)? That probably makes a more significant combat difference even if less-so for maneuvering
 
Roomba said:
Divided in three, one group is going to be 8-9 people, we'll have 6-7, Pangolins included. That is not a victory in one or two rounds, everything else being equal. I agree that this is down to mechanics, but it's difficult for me to believe that the math can work out in favor of this kind of strategy. And it doesn't make sense to me from a simulationist point of view either.
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Combat in our offensives were usually over in 1-2 rounds, though granted that was more often a 3v3 than a 6v9. Given how strong the pangolins are, winning one of those in a round or two does not seem unreasonable; but not sure if we can capture and kidnap the losers in time before reinforcements arrive.
 
Just to be clear, moderate consequences will inflict a continuing penalty on many combat skills. Here is what the rules have to say.

Consequences are injuries, and they impose penalties on you until they heal. These penalties apply to all your relevant skills as decided by the author of a given update. In some circumstances it might even be possible to invoke the Aspect imposed by a Consequence to assist your roll. For example, a 'Badly Burned' Consequence would definitely reduce all your physical skills but it might also reduce your social skills...although you could spend an FP to invoke it in order to get a bonus on your Intimidation roll. In some cases the negative modifier would still apply when you invoke the Aspect, so you would mostly be canceling out some/all of the penalty.
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A Moderate Consequence imposes 1 x Aspect Bonus.

Level Aspect Bonus

Level 0-9: +1

Level 10-19: +2

Level 20-29: +3

Level 30-39: +4
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The Cut Heel consequence that Noburi is inflicting will primarily effect Athletics checks... I doubt Alertness, though, so you shouldn't expect their initiative to go down.
 
Briefvoice said:
The Cut Heel consequence that Noburi is inflicting will primarily effect Athletics checks... I doubt Alertness, though, so you shouldn't expect their initiative to go down.
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Wouldn't the pain be distracting enough though?

I am also wondering if the fact that they might be expecting betrayal from other teams participating in the assault is also going to be worth negative modifiers.

Any chance you can chime in if it's not too spoilery, @eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail?
 
Briefvoice said:
The Cut Heel consequence that Noburi is inflicting will primarily effect Athletics checks... I doubt Alertness, though, so you shouldn't expect their initiative to go down.
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I think affecting Alertness might be context sensitive. A wound wouldn't likely affect your ability to spot a trap as you cautiously move through a hallway, for instance. But Alertness in the context of initiative is more about who reacts faster, being something like reflexes - someone that has a wound that would slow down their ability to react quickly would likely be penalized.

What the person intends to do might also matter. Someone who just intends to cast a jutsu without moving might be ok, but someone intending to move could be penalized. Mind you, moves aren't necessarily determined in advance since initiative differences will determine what someone does in reaction to what the people ahead of them do, so the QMs might just apply the penalty regardless to save on headaches.
 
faflec said:
I feel betrayal would be a Social Consequence more than anything.
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But don't consequences do the same thing, i.e. Moderate Consequences from physical injury or mental injury have the same effect on rolls? We did inflict the MC but that doesn't mean that this is the only malus they are going to have, especially for genin not at all used to working with other nations who would probably want to see them dead if they could get away with it.

Or to say it another way: I would be extremely surprised if there was no suspicions/hate between each other that hindered the assault groups via maluses or even splintering the force during the assault itself. Anything else would be plain unrealistic in my opinion.
 
Citrus said:
also won't typically bother them when they aren't using their hands
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Which is why the Consequence wouldn't be constantly there.
Tua said:
But don't consequences do the same thing, i.e. Moderate Consequences from physical injury or mental injury have the same effect on rolls? We did inflict the MC but that doesn't mean that this is the only malus they are going to have, especially for genin not at all used to working with other nations who would probably want to see them dead if they could get away with it.

Or to say it another way: I would be extremely surprised if there was no suspicions/hate between each other that hindered the assault groups via maluses or even splintering the force during the assault itself. Anything else would be plain unrealistic in my opinion.
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Eh...they mostly stay on the track they're on. Physical Consequences work mostly on combat-related skills, whereas Mental Consequences work mostly on social-related skills.
 
Briefvoice said:
Just to be clear, moderate consequences will inflict a continuing penalty on many combat skills. Here is what the rules have to say.



A Moderate Consequence imposes 1 x Aspect Bonus.



The Cut Heel consequence that Noburi is inflicting will primarily effect Athletics checks... I doubt Alertness, though, so you shouldn't expect their initiative to go down.
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Part of initiative is ability to react, which a cut heel would affect. Also, frankly, if it's a mental thing we could just have Keiko traumatize all of them.
 
I would find it a bit odd from a simulationist perspective if Moderate Conseq. dont affect an Initiative Roll.


That said we should try VERY hard to set up some sort of defensive ambush at rhe start. If we can knock out 5-6 ninja in an ambush before having to resort to standard combat that would be ideal.
 
MMKII said:
I would find it a bit odd from a simulationist perspective if Moderate Conseq. dont affect an Initiative Roll.
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That should depend entirely on the consequence in question, in my opinion. It makes sense that someone blinded by pangolin pepper dust, deafened by a Banshee, or distracted by some Mental consequence (like having been recently dumped by his girfriend, as a completely hypothetical example) would receive an Alertness malus. You could argue that pain is distracting, but adrenaline and plain old focus can counteract that temporarily.

Ultimately, it's up to the QMs to decide. If it were me, I wouldn't let the Cut Heel malus apply to Alertness, but I would also permit an Aspect like "My Teammates Might Betray Me" to affect Initiative.
 
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