Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
I think that it was intended less as a "here's an idea for somethign we're going to do" and more of a "here's a sample of the sealcrafting rules and how difficult things are comparatively"
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
This wasn't so much "Hey QM's! We're doing this now! Determine X for us!" as it was "Here are some examples of how I would build seals using the current rules. If anything looks like an immediate problem, then now (while the rules are still being worked on) is a good time for it to be noticed."
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
I do think that we should probably be allowed to rebuild the characters somewhat, depending on how the changes work out -- for instance, Deception in Augjev was significantly more expensive than Deceit is in Fated to Die, so it should probably be a fair bit higher now. Not specializations or anything, but stuff like that.
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
Oh, yeah, I strongly support this.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The plan has always been that we'd give y'all a bunch of XP and let you sort it out, with the proviso that the characters need to end up being thematically the same (e.g., no re-speccing Keiko into a taijutsu expert). We'll probably give some bonus XP over what they've already earned, too.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
In Augjev, we spent 632 XP on social skills and attributes, and of the skills we leveled, 89.4% of the skill points that went toward them went toward Deception
A direct conversion of these numbers results in 60 XP allocated to Diplomacy and 572 XP allocated to Deception. Obviously, there are more social skills than before, so let's slide that back a bit to a 400/232 split.
This results in a Deception value for Hazou of approximately 28, though a more accurate estimate to the relative XP allocation of 572 would result in something like 33 Deception.
A direct conversion of these numbers results in 60 XP allocated to Diplomacy and 572 XP allocated to Deception. Obviously, there are more social skills than before, so let's slide that back a bit to a 400/232 split.
This results in a Deception value for Hazou of approximately 28, though a more accurate estimate to the relative XP allocation of 572 would result in something like 33 Deception.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Oh, thing I should have said in the previous post: thank you to everyone (especially @Erolki, @Cariyaga, and @MadScientist) who has been offering critique on the new rules. We appreciate the constructive approach and the willingness to offer suggestions as well as point out problems. I'm writing today and @Velorien is mostly afk so we're not going to make a lot of progress on discussing them, but rest assured that we will.
Several people made comments to the effect "chakra draining has been nerfed". I'm not sure where that's coming from, since the latest version of the rules explicitly did not include mechanics on chakra draining, with a very specific note about "not included because under heavy discussion." The previous release had a version that made chakra draining not helpful in combat, but when that was pointed out we were quick to say "oops, that's an error where the change from short chakra stress tracks to large chakra pools did not get propagated through all the rules; it's not going to work like that."
As to Noburi in general, let me pull back the curtain a little bit for a moment....
The Wakahisa were supposed to be a support clan that was useful mostly for their chakra transfer ability. The QMs made a couple of bad rulings where we didn't realize what the implications were before they were in the game and solidly established. We also allowed ourselves to be talked into the mist drain ability, which we hadn't originally intended to be a thing and went somewhat against the original conception. As a result, it took Noburi eighteen months to go from "new graduate from ninja school" to "combat god who effortlessly takes down jōnin". The bloodline now contains a poor-man's Byakugan (chakra sensing), a massive utility boost to multiple other ninja (nigh-unlimited chakra and the ability to transfer it freely), and a nigh-unstoppable combat ability. Combine that with the fact that we let him have too much chakra too cheaply, a jutsu that makes him immune to being ganged up on, and an extremely powerful and inexpensive combat jutsu that costs effectively no chakra. He is enormously more powerful than everyone else on the team and (under the old rules) his power would grow faster than theirs so it was only going to get worse.
There's a few ways we can deal with this:
Several people made comments to the effect "chakra draining has been nerfed". I'm not sure where that's coming from, since the latest version of the rules explicitly did not include mechanics on chakra draining, with a very specific note about "not included because under heavy discussion." The previous release had a version that made chakra draining not helpful in combat, but when that was pointed out we were quick to say "oops, that's an error where the change from short chakra stress tracks to large chakra pools did not get propagated through all the rules; it's not going to work like that."
As to Noburi in general, let me pull back the curtain a little bit for a moment....
The Wakahisa were supposed to be a support clan that was useful mostly for their chakra transfer ability. The QMs made a couple of bad rulings where we didn't realize what the implications were before they were in the game and solidly established. We also allowed ourselves to be talked into the mist drain ability, which we hadn't originally intended to be a thing and went somewhat against the original conception. As a result, it took Noburi eighteen months to go from "new graduate from ninja school" to "combat god who effortlessly takes down jōnin". The bloodline now contains a poor-man's Byakugan (chakra sensing), a massive utility boost to multiple other ninja (nigh-unlimited chakra and the ability to transfer it freely), and a nigh-unstoppable combat ability. Combine that with the fact that we let him have too much chakra too cheaply, a jutsu that makes him immune to being ganged up on, and an extremely powerful and inexpensive combat jutsu that costs effectively no chakra. He is enormously more powerful than everyone else on the team and (under the old rules) his power would grow faster than theirs so it was only going to get worse.
There's a few ways we can deal with this:
- Accept the fact that there is no longer any way to physically challenge the team with anything less than S-rank opponents, with whom they are not going to be interacting in a simulationist quest, and therefore all fight scenes can be reduced to "and then the team won".
- Nerf him by shifting the Wakahisa back to what they were supposed to be in the first place and then put up with the complaints from players.
- Write him out of the story, which would make a lot of sense. He's a medic (of which there are never enough) who can use chakra drain for anaesthetic and then put chakra back in order to get ninja on their feet more quickly. He also has a valuable bloodline that Leaf would like to study and attempt to reproduce. It would make perfect sense if he spent all day every day at the hospital from now on and never appeared on camera.
- Location
- Yes.
I read this as "We are going to kill Noburi" and went NOOOOOOOOO
Hmn...
It's been previously noted in story that Noburi was more powerful than his parents, and would be under extensive training by the Wakahisa elders had he stayed in the village. So he's sort of the Wakahisa Itachi.
The possibility occurs that Noburi is especially powerful because of some genetic(/however chakra abilities are inherited) mutation and as a result he's also suffering from some kind of illness that has yet to show symptoms.
Like Itachi, those symptoms are going to start showing themselves at some point, and once they do, he's going to have some kind of gradually worsening disability that Tsunade and Kabuto need us to go on quests (stealing medical knowledge from other countries/ searching out rare drugs and ingredients/ etc.) so that they can treat him.
So: nerf the Wakahisa, let Noburi stay powerful, hit Noburi with a gradually increasing malus that we have to go on a series of quests to remove. By the time the "cure Noburi" questline is complete, we'll probably all be S-rankers anyway.
That's how I would resolve the issue.
Edit: Sample mechanics:
- Each week from the moment symptoms start, check whether Noburi has taken medication to treat his condition.
- If he hasn't, then all physical skills take a -1 malus, cummulative with previous weeks.
- If his Athletics reaches zero then he's bedridden.
- If he's taken the medication that week then the malus is reduced by 1 instead of increased.
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Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
I think that you may be vastly overestimating the power that Vampiric Dew -- drain and mist drain, that is -- bring to bear. Under the current system he can drain 24 chakra points per round. People use way more than that in chakra boost on a single skill and this will continue to be the case: At skill level 80, people will use 100 chakra for boost and he'll still only be able to drain 80 per round. Sure, it makes fighting against one that you can't take out a losing gambit... but a Wakahisa that's mist draining is one that isn't actively killing you.
Compare this to, say, the Uchiha, who have bullshit eyes that probably gives them something ridiculous like +10 to all combat rolls, or the Inuzuka or Aburame who are capable of breaking action economy, or the Hozuki who can turn into water to avoid dying, or that blood clone clan which has shadow clone-equivalents to cheat training as a clan... I don't think its combat effectiveness is as great as you make it out to be.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
If those comments were spurred by him learning Mist Drain, which he believed to be a legendary Wakahisa technique (instead of a trump card they just don't tell blabbermouth genin about), and falsely believing that he mastered something even his parents hadn't, then, well, he's still significantly above average like Keiko and Hazo are, but not Itachi-tier.
Posting edit on new page:
That's the comment I was talking about, but it wasn't necessarily purely based on mist draining. He could have felt the drain-strength of his parents on a previous occasion (in that game Wakahisa play) and compared his current level to that.
That's the comment I was talking about, but it wasn't necessarily purely based on mist draining. He could have felt the drain-strength of his parents on a previous occasion (in that game Wakahisa play) and compared his current level to that.
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- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Oooooh. That's thoroughly evil. I like it, thank you. :>
Now I just need to talk the others into it.
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
Are you kidding, I was gonna talk YOU into it
- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I've been meaning to do an analysis on mist drain to try to get on the same page about it's power level. Won't be able to till Tuesday (go go working 16 hour days) but reasonably confident I can convince you mist drain isn't incredibly broken
I think what they're saying is that, because of how good everything else he can do is, even if Mist Drain isn't broken he still ends up OP (due to giant Chakra pool, Mist Sensing, support powers, etc).
If we're looking at retcon-ish things again... I'm going to repeat the idea of dropping Chakra Boost, because that gets rid of the issue where a larger Chakra pool means you just have more dice everywhere else. Chakra specialists haven't really been portrayed as better melee combatants, just people who can throw more and/or bigger Jutsu. Jinchuuriki are awful because of their special powers and ability to spam high-end Jutsu, not because they can just punch better. Etc.
Or, if you want a less drastic option that leaves them as a support bloodline... what if, because of their screwy Chakra networks, the Wakahisa can't Chakra Boost? That closes one loophole nicely (though it still leaves the rest of the issues
).
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Or they can only boost ninjutsu. (Though this wouldn't really solve Noburi's problem: Pantokrator's Hammer would still solve that)I think what they're saying is that, because of how good everything else he can do is, even if Mist Drain isn't broken he still ends up OP (due to giant Chakra pool, Mist Sensing, support powers, etc).
If we're looking at retcon-ish things again... I'm going to repeat the idea of dropping Chakra Boost, because that gets rid of the issue where a larger Chakra pool means you just have more dice everywhere else. Chakra specialists haven't really been portrayed as better melee combatants, just people who can throw more and/or bigger Jutsu. Jinchuuriki are awful because of their special powers and ability to spam high-end Jutsu, not because they can just punch better. Etc.
Or, if you want a less drastic option that leaves them as a support bloodline... what if, because of their screwy Chakra networks, the Wakahisa can't Chakra Boost? That closes one loophole nicely (though it still leaves the rest of the issues
Raxner
The most dangerous man in an empty room
- Location
- Israel
Here's a different idea. Contact a QM privately. Offer him, say, $500 for a favorable QM fiat. Done.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
It'd probably take a significant amount more money to overcome their professional integrity, tbh. Don't undershoot them, that's just insulting.
Looking back at the chapter, Noburi thinks that he's better than his parents before realising he has Mist drain.
- Location
- Low Earth Orbit
Have you considered adding a "take 10" mechanic? It's from dnd 3.5 or Pathfinder, and allows you to substitute your d20 roll with a 10 in circumstances where you aren't directly threatened or stressed. In FATE, you'd substitute 4df with 0. This gives a level of "normal performance" for various tasks-it's kinda silly if a character sitting in a calm room performs so radically different from time to time. E.g. a ninja with athletics X will probably be able to run a 100m dash pretty stably from one day to another, provided he wasn't in combat or under significant emotional stress, but mechanically without a "take 0" his rolls would be way different.
- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
So don't have time for full analysis of mist drain but have some commentary on last time we used mist drain
So if that how mist drain was going to work moving forward I'd all be for nerfing it. Being able to drain 2 ninja down in a round is a bit much. We fortunately have already nerfed mist drain with The even greater rebalancing. Instead of draining 24 chakra points per second Noburi only gets to drain 24 per round. So assuming that both of our opponents where down to around 60 chakra when Noburi started draining both of them would still be up and able to rain down destruction on the team. Noburi would have taken 5 rounds to drain them completely which is a lifetime in marked for death. Ninja combat is rocket tag and basically never goes on beyond 2 rounds
So if that how mist drain was going to work moving forward I'd all be for nerfing it. Being able to drain 2 ninja down in a round is a bit much. We fortunately have already nerfed mist drain with The even greater rebalancing. Instead of draining 24 chakra points per second Noburi only gets to drain 24 per round. So assuming that both of our opponents where down to around 60 chakra when Noburi started draining both of them would still be up and able to rain down destruction on the team. Noburi would have taken 5 rounds to drain them completely which is a lifetime in marked for death. Ninja combat is rocket tag and basically never goes on beyond 2 rounds
- Location
- Poland
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'd like to consider a possible alternative approach to Noburi's OP-ness, for sake of different angles:
Noburi has been growing up wrong.
By growing up I mean he was close to a puberty equivalent of Wakahisa. If he stayed with his clan, they would teach him how to train properly, or maybe take certain drugs or perform certain practices so his fragile system won't go off whack.
Wakahisa modify their chakra system in a pretty dramatic way (they literally put some of their magic organs in a barrel). It would seem logical for this to have some long-term consequences on their health, especially if left unchecked. I mean, Mori use a nihilistic mind demon to freeze their brains to ice, so that they can think in nice, orderly grids- yet even they don't modify themselves permanently.
Noburi's superb abilities could actually come from that very problem- think of a valve. When Noburi tries to suck chakra from water around him he opens this valve. He did it many times and trained a lot, so he's very good at opening it wider and keeping it open.
The disadvantage coming from that is that he'd be pretty bad at closing it.
When Noburi sucks chakra through his tendrils, he's connecting water from his barrel to water around him. There's a force that's sucking chakra in, a difference in pressure, etc.. But when Noburi doesn't use his abilities actively, does the connection from barrel to water around end? Does his valve close naturally?
It's my suggestion that Noburi has a loose chakra hole, so he has a problem keeping it in, especially in water.
It could manifest itself in him quickly losing chakra when he's in water, or a hit to his chakra capacity (since he can't hold it in), or even form a more general sickness that he has to figure out and cure in order to survive.
Just imagine other Wakahisa, when seeing his OP abilities, will actually pity him, because he's doing it wrong, harming himself for quick power boost.
It would make him less of a special snowflake, and highlight the fact that he lacks the support and know-how of the rest of his clan.
Also it's more evil and real-life kind of dramatic.
Noburi has been growing up wrong.
By growing up I mean he was close to a puberty equivalent of Wakahisa. If he stayed with his clan, they would teach him how to train properly, or maybe take certain drugs or perform certain practices so his fragile system won't go off whack.
Wakahisa modify their chakra system in a pretty dramatic way (they literally put some of their magic organs in a barrel). It would seem logical for this to have some long-term consequences on their health, especially if left unchecked. I mean, Mori use a nihilistic mind demon to freeze their brains to ice, so that they can think in nice, orderly grids- yet even they don't modify themselves permanently.
Noburi's superb abilities could actually come from that very problem- think of a valve. When Noburi tries to suck chakra from water around him he opens this valve. He did it many times and trained a lot, so he's very good at opening it wider and keeping it open.
The disadvantage coming from that is that he'd be pretty bad at closing it.
When Noburi sucks chakra through his tendrils, he's connecting water from his barrel to water around him. There's a force that's sucking chakra in, a difference in pressure, etc.. But when Noburi doesn't use his abilities actively, does the connection from barrel to water around end? Does his valve close naturally?
It's my suggestion that Noburi has a loose chakra hole, so he has a problem keeping it in, especially in water.
It could manifest itself in him quickly losing chakra when he's in water, or a hit to his chakra capacity (since he can't hold it in), or even form a more general sickness that he has to figure out and cure in order to survive.
Just imagine other Wakahisa, when seeing his OP abilities, will actually pity him, because he's doing it wrong, harming himself for quick power boost.
It would make him less of a special snowflake, and highlight the fact that he lacks the support and know-how of the rest of his clan.
Also it's more evil and real-life kind of dramatic.
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