Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
Perhaps, but I think spreading it out more than one per rank at most is excessive (1 - civilian, 2 - Genin, 3 - Chunin, 4 - Jonin, 5 - Legendary/Kage).
I'd even say you could break it down into 1 - civilian/Genin/Chunin (as the differences there are mostly coming from the separation between "uses Chakra" and "can't use Chakra", with the next level being fundamentally a skill gap as opposed to something primal), 2 Jonin, 3 Legendary/Kage. The idea of an above-average Genin beating a Chunin isn't weird the same way that a Chunin beating a Jonin is, or a Jonin beating a Kage.
Fun thought: being a Jinchuriki pushes you up a point of Scale (probably capping at Legendary/Kage, as once you're that powerful the boost makes a smaller difference).
I think the Tailed Beasts themselves (with the possible exception of the 9-tails, if its appearances ware about the same as in canon) probably should be the same Scale as the Kage - they seem to have been kept sealed fairly reliably for some time, which suggests they're dangerous but not totally out of scale from other potential threats.
I'd even say you could break it down into 1 - civilian/Genin/Chunin (as the differences there are mostly coming from the separation between "uses Chakra" and "can't use Chakra", with the next level being fundamentally a skill gap as opposed to something primal), 2 Jonin, 3 Legendary/Kage. The idea of an above-average Genin beating a Chunin isn't weird the same way that a Chunin beating a Jonin is, or a Jonin beating a Kage.
Fun thought: being a Jinchuriki pushes you up a point of Scale (probably capping at Legendary/Kage, as once you're that powerful the boost makes a smaller difference).
I think the Tailed Beasts themselves (with the possible exception of the 9-tails, if its appearances ware about the same as in canon) probably should be the same Scale as the Kage - they seem to have been kept sealed fairly reliably for some time, which suggests they're dangerous but not totally out of scale from other potential threats.
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Well, in DFAE, most things are either at the Mundane tier, or Supernatural tier, with Otherwordly being reserved for either the significantly powerful or the extremely experienced (Rashid and Arthur Langtry occupy the Otherwordly Scale, as well as the Fae Ladies and Mavra the Black Court, the Lords Raith, and Sanya as a Knight of the Cross in his Prime). The folks at Legendary are personages of ludicrous power and skill - The Fairy Queens, Leanansidhe and Erlking, as well as Nicodemus Archleone... And then Godlike for actual Gods that just can't be defined by stats, like Odin, Hades, and the Fairy Mothers.
But yeah, that five-tiers for ninja going from Civilian to Legend/Kage ought to suffice for ninja.
And Jinchuuriki jumping up a level on Scale makes sense, though I'd only say it applies when they start to leak for partial transformations. Otherwise you'd always be running at higher Scale for everything, even when you're not directly tapping into the Beast...
Still... a Tailed Beast on the loose ought to have Scale that trumps everything. These things can take out entire clans of ninja when unleashed, and slaughter Jounin. Minato Namikaze was a genius and at the Kage level, and even he had to die with Kushina in order to seal away the Kyubi. I suggest that if Legendary/Kage occupy the highest Scale of ninja, then Tailed Beasts have the next highest Scale, and may apply it in either physical combat or supernatural techniques/powers. However, they also all have the aspect "____ Tailed Beast" as their High Concept, which allows most people to figure out that if you spend a Fate Point to compel that aspect, the Tailed Beast probably can't apply Scale to defend against stuff like Sealing. And Seal Techniques to control the Tailed Beast probably are some serious "ritual magic"/fuinjutsu to even allow an attempt at beating the defenses of a Tailed Beast, or denying it the option to use Scale in its defense.
But yeah, that five-tiers for ninja going from Civilian to Legend/Kage ought to suffice for ninja.
And Jinchuuriki jumping up a level on Scale makes sense, though I'd only say it applies when they start to leak for partial transformations. Otherwise you'd always be running at higher Scale for everything, even when you're not directly tapping into the Beast...
Still... a Tailed Beast on the loose ought to have Scale that trumps everything. These things can take out entire clans of ninja when unleashed, and slaughter Jounin. Minato Namikaze was a genius and at the Kage level, and even he had to die with Kushina in order to seal away the Kyubi. I suggest that if Legendary/Kage occupy the highest Scale of ninja, then Tailed Beasts have the next highest Scale, and may apply it in either physical combat or supernatural techniques/powers. However, they also all have the aspect "____ Tailed Beast" as their High Concept, which allows most people to figure out that if you spend a Fate Point to compel that aspect, the Tailed Beast probably can't apply Scale to defend against stuff like Sealing. And Seal Techniques to control the Tailed Beast probably are some serious "ritual magic"/fuinjutsu to even allow an attempt at beating the defenses of a Tailed Beast, or denying it the option to use Scale in its defense.
Cariyaga
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In canon, it was more Tobi's interference that caused Minato and Kushina to die, and only then because of a self-sacrificing technique. If it hadn't been for that, I am fairly sure he would have figured out some other way of doing things.
Agreed - on top of that, would you say that the God of Shinobi wouldn't be able to wipe out entire clans of lesser ninja single-handedly? Or, consider how the Fourth Hokage earned his "flee-on-sight" order!
(also, in canon, the Nine-Tails was literally more powerful than all 8 of the others put together [because their power scaled multiplicatively by number of tails]. I suspect the gaps between tail numbers won't be so absurd here, but I'd still treat it as a special case more than anything else)
In particular, with the razor's-edge way the villages have been said to be balanced in MfD, I'd say there's an argument that controlling the Tailed Beasts might even be easier than in canon, and even there only the Nine-Tails is presented as an unstoppable force of destruction - there was a big thing in Killer B's canon backstory about how they'd attempted several Jinchuriki before him that just hadn't taken and the Eight-Tails had needed to be resealed, and if they were really a post-Kage level threat I can't see how the village would have survived that (of course, that particular thing may not be true in MfD, but it seems implausible that there hasn't been at least one Jinchuriki containment failure per generation with 9 of the damn things out there getting into fights).
I do like the idea that base Jinchuriki only get the Scale boost when actively drawing on their "tenant", that makes perfect sense.
(also, in canon, the Nine-Tails was literally more powerful than all 8 of the others put together [because their power scaled multiplicatively by number of tails]. I suspect the gaps between tail numbers won't be so absurd here, but I'd still treat it as a special case more than anything else)
In particular, with the razor's-edge way the villages have been said to be balanced in MfD, I'd say there's an argument that controlling the Tailed Beasts might even be easier than in canon, and even there only the Nine-Tails is presented as an unstoppable force of destruction - there was a big thing in Killer B's canon backstory about how they'd attempted several Jinchuriki before him that just hadn't taken and the Eight-Tails had needed to be resealed, and if they were really a post-Kage level threat I can't see how the village would have survived that (of course, that particular thing may not be true in MfD, but it seems implausible that there hasn't been at least one Jinchuriki containment failure per generation with 9 of the damn things out there getting into fights).
I do like the idea that base Jinchuriki only get the Scale boost when actively drawing on their "tenant", that makes perfect sense.
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Firstly, I'd like to say that I'm better versed with Fate Accelerated stuff, but a lot of things hold the same no matter whether you're using Fate Core, Accelerated, DFRPG (which was released before Core came out, and had some odd bugs iirc), or DFAE.
- Well, Explosive Seals are pretty easy: they're direct Attacks using a skill/approach, with the option of using Advantages/Boosts to allow them to target an entire area without having to split levels, or just add extra damage.
- Storage seals with stuff in them are just temporary Aspects and Advantages, or simply the result of someone with a Seal-related Aspect saying "I have this".
- PMYF seals are something along the lines of "move up to three zones as an action".
- Macerators in general: Create an Advantage, or Attack. See the Explosive Seals thing about using other stuff to boost them. Mostly though, they are Advantages created around setting up a bunch of mist or just spitting sawdust everywhere as a blinding attack or whatever.
- Misterators and Purifiers are Create an Advantage (or Overcome an Advantage, in the case of Purifiers).
- Air/Earth Dome - Create an Advantage to create a dome with set characteristics. Or something along the lines of "Pay 1 FP and place a new Setting Aspect called "Air/Earth Dome" on your zone. Great (+4) Difficulty to overcome." Maybe finagle with that Difficulty.
- Alarm Seals - Create an Advantage called "Security System In Place"
- Banshee Slayers - Create an Advantage called "No Sound", or Overcome Advantages related to sound
- Banshees - See Explosive Seals, only describe them as sonics rather than explosives
- Silence Mines - Create Advantage "Zone of Silence"
- Party Trick - Create an Advantage "whizz! bang! zap! Fireworks!"
- Goo Bombs - Create an Advantage "Sticky Goo Everywhere!"
- Implosion Seals - see Explosive Seals, only more hardcore
- Force Walls, LBF, 5SB - see Air/Earth Dome, flavor to taste
- Wide-Cone Directional Explosives - again, see Explosive Seals about Attacks and AoE, and edit fluff text
- Pantokrator's Eyes / Skytowers - Create an Advantage to declare a new zone in the sky called "Skytower" and expend an activation to move to it.
- Skywalkers - Allows you to move to zones that can't normally be moved to without running on air.
If it's not already clear, the Seals the team currently uses are either A) Attacks of various sorts, resolved normally through combat; B) Create an Advantage actions of various sorts; C) Temporary stunts to allow faster movement or fudge the rules a bit like attacking everyone in a zone without splitting shifts or move to zones that can't be gotten to normally.
Seals are either an application of various Approaches (in FAE), or the result of application of the Crafts skill (unless Fuinjutsu falls under another skill, or is simply an independent skill of its own). You either use your own approach/skill, or maybe a static value based on the skill of the seal's creator (probably a static of Fair +2 or Great +4). I dunno, hadn't really thought that far ahead.
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Cariyaga
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See, that's the part I'm worried about. At the point of "Seals are just fancy ways of Creating Advantage"... what's the point in being a sealmaster, again?
Part of the issue here, I think, is a bit of game-specific terminology confusion: for example, with the Earth Dome mention above, when he says "Create an Advantage", that's actually the type of action (the same way "Quick Action: Activate Seal" is a type of action). Create an Advantage literally just means "do anything that somehow helps you and/or someone on your team in the situation you're in". Advantage is just the Fate term for "useful thing you made in a conflict". So, saying "Seals are just a fancy way of creating Advantages" is a little like saying "Seals are just a fancy way of making Attack rolls" - perhaps technically true, but generalized/simplified to the point of being less helpful.
The thing with Aspects and Advantages is while they don't usually give the sort of constant numerical bonuses you see in a lot of RPGs, they're still things that are true in the world, and tagging them for number bonus is just representing that it can take a little effort to properly take advantage of an unusual situation (after all, once a ninja's seen you using Skywalkers, they won't really be too shocked and you might not have any melee edge from it - until you do something clever!).
The advantage of Seals is still that they let you do things that you couldn't without them, because aspects/advantages are things that are true. Without a seal (or, to be fair, appropriate jutsu), you wouldn't be able to apply an advantage like "Fog Cloud" to an entire zone, or use Implosion Seals/Banshees to attack many targets at once (I would guess most of the AoE seals will probably be able to just attack multiple close-together targets with one roll, which is a pretty big deal for the action economy). Things like Skywalkers may not have quite the same flat bonus, but a) allow you to just do things you can't do without them (like, say, run 10 meters straight up and be immune to melee attacks) and b) likely give you an Aspect or Advantage you can tag for flat advantage points (especially since "Activate Skywalkers" is likely a Create an Advantage roll, meaning you get to tag it for free at least once).
I don't think everything needs to be tagged to do something useful - once Skywalkers are up, you can move in 3D. If there's a Skytower, that's just a zone that you can't access without Skywalkers (or some other movement power). If Banshee Slayers are suppressing noise in an area, there is no noise in that area - but, because people can still see you coming, you'd still need to tag the Advantage to represent the effort taken to stay out of sight to get a Stealth bonus (however, if someone was unable to look behind themselves for some reason, and that's the direction you were coming from, you could probably just declare success).
The thing with Aspects and Advantages is while they don't usually give the sort of constant numerical bonuses you see in a lot of RPGs, they're still things that are true in the world, and tagging them for number bonus is just representing that it can take a little effort to properly take advantage of an unusual situation (after all, once a ninja's seen you using Skywalkers, they won't really be too shocked and you might not have any melee edge from it - until you do something clever!).
The advantage of Seals is still that they let you do things that you couldn't without them, because aspects/advantages are things that are true. Without a seal (or, to be fair, appropriate jutsu), you wouldn't be able to apply an advantage like "Fog Cloud" to an entire zone, or use Implosion Seals/Banshees to attack many targets at once (I would guess most of the AoE seals will probably be able to just attack multiple close-together targets with one roll, which is a pretty big deal for the action economy). Things like Skywalkers may not have quite the same flat bonus, but a) allow you to just do things you can't do without them (like, say, run 10 meters straight up and be immune to melee attacks) and b) likely give you an Aspect or Advantage you can tag for flat advantage points (especially since "Activate Skywalkers" is likely a Create an Advantage roll, meaning you get to tag it for free at least once).
I don't think everything needs to be tagged to do something useful - once Skywalkers are up, you can move in 3D. If there's a Skytower, that's just a zone that you can't access without Skywalkers (or some other movement power). If Banshee Slayers are suppressing noise in an area, there is no noise in that area - but, because people can still see you coming, you'd still need to tag the Advantage to represent the effort taken to stay out of sight to get a Stealth bonus (however, if someone was unable to look behind themselves for some reason, and that's the direction you were coming from, you could probably just declare success).
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Cariyaga
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No, I'm fully aware that creating an advantage is a type of action. My point is, if activating macerators is creating an advantage, that's still just a fancy way of getting a +2 that uses an action that could otherwise be used to attack, and that you could get without sealing.
The difference is that, without sealing, you can spend an action to create an advantage for a +2. With sealing, you can make fog bank, or an earth wall, or what-have-you. While the amount of strict mechanical bonus advantages give to your roll is set, the different things are still whatever they happen to be - fog blocks line of sight and can be used for appropriate jutsu, earth and air domes are physical objects that act as any other would in their place, Skywalkers let you run straight up, etc. Heck, even the macerator probably lets you create an advantage at a whole group of enemies (making it easier for your whole squad) instead of just the one.
Aspects and Advantages are things that are there, are true in-world, and have any common-sense effects such a thing would have. Fate deliberately avoids building mechanics for every possibility, and instead just says "Here's the default way to interact with an Advantage or Aspect: Tag it for a +2 to your roll. Things that are true are still true, though, and should have appropriate effects for whatever that happens to be". So, if you make an Air Dome - that isn't necessarily an Aspect or Advantage you'd tag in the normal way, instead it'd be a barrier you're hiding behind, the same way as if you happened to find a round piece of metal and hide under it (representing it as an obstacle for other people to try to Overcome, as mentioned above, would probably work fine - they can't get at you unless they break the dome or otherwise neutralize it). Skywalkers and Skytowers aren't game-changers because they're easy to tag for a +2 (though that's nice) - they're game-changers because being able to set up towers in the sky without a tower underneath is a huge scouting and camp security edge, and because running in 3D is way more versatile than running in 2D.
Aspects and Advantages are things that are there, are true in-world, and have any common-sense effects such a thing would have. Fate deliberately avoids building mechanics for every possibility, and instead just says "Here's the default way to interact with an Advantage or Aspect: Tag it for a +2 to your roll. Things that are true are still true, though, and should have appropriate effects for whatever that happens to be". So, if you make an Air Dome - that isn't necessarily an Aspect or Advantage you'd tag in the normal way, instead it'd be a barrier you're hiding behind, the same way as if you happened to find a round piece of metal and hide under it (representing it as an obstacle for other people to try to Overcome, as mentioned above, would probably work fine - they can't get at you unless they break the dome or otherwise neutralize it). Skywalkers and Skytowers aren't game-changers because they're easy to tag for a +2 (though that's nice) - they're game-changers because being able to set up towers in the sky without a tower underneath is a huge scouting and camp security edge, and because running in 3D is way more versatile than running in 2D.
Cariyaga
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The thing is, part of the reason the QMs are changing systems to begin with is to make it easier to come up with mechanics for stuff like seals and techniques: That's the reason we're considering GURPS and HERO. Saying that the system is rules-lite, in that context, is a bad thing.
Yes, stuff like Air Domes and Skywalkers and 5SB have other, obvious, benefits, but how do you reconcile that with the system? Are Skywalkers just worthless against ranged attacks?
Even setting that aside, a large amount of Hazou and Akane's power was the +6 Macerators provided; similarly with Kagome's explosive style. Obviously I'm not saying it should get an equivalent bonus here, but to have to use a precious action to create an advantage is not ideal, particularly given how lethal the system is with the houserules eaglejarl proposed: As it stands, offense already outscales defense. In the time it takes to create an advantage, your opponent could be attacking or killing you or your team.
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It's also the concept of "permissions" that having an aspect like "Sealmaster" affords you. I mean, sure, you could Create an Advantage to do a lot of the stuff that Seals would be doing the normal way, using other skills and straight up ninjutsu... however, one probably doesn't have the Aspects to back up having such an array of ninjutsu techniques under their belt. Not to mention, some things fall outside the purview of what having an Aspect allowing for Ninjutsu would let you have. Like the limitations of your Element Affinities as well as what ninjutsu you've actually learned or have clearance to learn.
By having the "Sealmaster" Aspect, you make it true that you have Seals, and because you have Seals, you can make Advantages that others can't, and attack in ways that others wouldn't be able to without extensive knowledge of ninjutsu and a massive active technique library.
By having the "Sealmaster" Aspect, you make it true that you have Seals, and because you have Seals, you can make Advantages that others can't, and attack in ways that others wouldn't be able to without extensive knowledge of ninjutsu and a massive active technique library.
I mean, you're right to be worried. I played in several long-running FATE games... and the the GM who was running eventually burned out on FATE and grew to dislike the system.
He said to me, "I can't enjoy it anymore since (playername) whispered the secret that I now can't unsee... everything is just +2." By which he meant that there was no way to distinguish a big advantage from a small one.
The group has considered going back to FATE, but when we talked about it we were talking about being much more strict about when aspects can apply and more willing to say, "No, that doesn't help." To give a concrete example that sticks out in my mind, our knights in post-Roman Britain were trying to convince a ruler to do something, but he didn't have the money. So we did a bunch of rolls to go through his financial records, with various players helping out by creating advantages, to achieve a Legendary success and find the money by squeezing every possible sources.
But there were PCs in the group who couldn't have realistically helped with that, and we were letting them use skills only tangentially related to build advantages like, "inspired" and "well-led" and "well-rested" and stuff. Which, great, but when you are lax about what can reasonably create an advantage in a situation (or rather, what advantage-created Aspects can reasonable be tapped for a roll), it's easy to build up to a very high success level every time.
Just sharing a little real world experience.
Cariyaga
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I dunno, maybe I'm just not getting it, but it seems like, well, we'd have that anyway. The concept of 'permissions' doesn't really change that Hazou would have been as well off doing something less imminently-lethal to himself than sealing. In the old system, you got real, tangible benefits from sealing without having to spend XP on the benefits themselves. Sure, you needed to learn sealing to the point where you could do the sealing, but you didn't need to spend XP to learn to use macerators or skywalkers.
Is there a reason the GM couldn't add more variety? Make the bonuses range from +1 to +3 depending on the circumstances?
Cariyaga
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If it's lower, you're frequently better off just making a roll to attack/overcome.
If it's higher, you're almost always going to take the advantage, etc.
At least, that's my uneducated guess as to the balance of it.
Why should you have to spend xp to learn how to throw a kunai better, but not to learn how to use macerators or skywalkers better?
It's coming across as, "under the old system sealing had an unfair advantage and it might not anymore".
There is a system option that we played with that does something like that. See the Scaled Invocation section here.
Tenuous Aspects - Aspects only tangentially related to the system can only grant a reroll, never a +2. So it's great that you're "Well Rested" but that is at best going to safeguard from a fuck-up when you roll really low... it won't increase your maximum possible performance.
Relevant Aspects - Aspects that would reasonably strongly influence a situation act as normal. I am a "Sealing Prodigy" so I can tag that to decipher this unknown seal. Perfectly legit.
Perfect Aspects - Aspects that perfectly fit a situation mean that you can automatically succeed. When Iniago Montoya invokes, "Hunting My Father's Murderer" to chase the six fingered man, he auto-succeeds.
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But that's... kind of the point though, right? We identified a system in the game rules/universe that could be exploited and then built our entire character concept around using that. We saw a universe where everyone was walking around with closed eyes, for fear of being blinded by the light, dared to open our own eyes, and you're now proposing that "under the old system, eyes had an unfair advantage" and instead lets use a system where eyes give a +2 to echolocation.
I realize that's a bit of an unfair representation of your argument but that's kind of how it seems to me.
Cariyaga
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This, basically.
I guess where we differ is that I would never say, "game rules/universe" as if they were same thing that could be referred to in two different ways. For me, game rules are never the universe in an RPG. They are an imperfect approximation of the universe, built so we can simulate it sufficiently to run a game, but the map is not the territory and one should never mistake the simulation for the actual world. Any RPG rules system will have places where the rules don't make sense and have to be ignored in favor of everyone's conception of what is actually happening in the universe. Better systems will build escape hatches in from the beginning to do just that.
So don't build characters around some "exploit" in the system, because it's fair game to change or ignore the rules at any time. And if you do and the rules change, tough luck. The universe didn't change; we just found a different way to simulate it.
Whatever mechanical advantages they might have in combat, in-universe Skywalkers are still a world-changing invention.
@Briefvoice, although I agree with you on settings that are already fully developed, or for settings that are still new and unexplored, we're currently in a position where your model hits a failure-state.
I think that in a universe where aspects of the universe are being created in response to the character's actions, and the character's actions are being chosen in response to the mechanics, you are then, in a sense, "locking in" the relative powers of different aspects of the mechanics into the narrative.
For example:
Sealing is powerful in the original mechanics -> the playerbase sees that and decides to build Hazou as a sealsmith -> Hazou in-universe learns to be a sealsmith -> Hazou is shown in-universe doing powerful things with seals because of their powerful mechanics -> seals are powerful in-universe.
At that point, using mechanics that nerf Sealing is going to go against the in-universe narrative, not just mess with the players' munchkinning.
I think that in a universe where aspects of the universe are being created in response to the character's actions, and the character's actions are being chosen in response to the mechanics, you are then, in a sense, "locking in" the relative powers of different aspects of the mechanics into the narrative.
For example:
Sealing is powerful in the original mechanics -> the playerbase sees that and decides to build Hazou as a sealsmith -> Hazou in-universe learns to be a sealsmith -> Hazou is shown in-universe doing powerful things with seals because of their powerful mechanics -> seals are powerful in-universe.
At that point, using mechanics that nerf Sealing is going to go against the in-universe narrative, not just mess with the players' munchkinning.
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Man, if there were a free ruleset available (legally) online, I would suggest we use Hârnmaster as our new system, because it is hilarious. Sixteen separate regions on the body defined for armor, your endurance is determined by the mean of your Strength, Stamina and Will, and during character creation you roll 3d6 for each of Eyesight, Hearing, Smell, and Comeliness, among other things, in addition to your normal stats.
Okay, can we pull back for a minute? If the new rituals are based on the Dresden Files RPG, then sealing will almost certainly be based on Ritual Casting/Thaumaturgy in the game.
And I'm going to tell you something... that means that sealing will be ungodly, game-breakingly powerful. Because Ritual Casting is. Forget all this shit about pulling out a seal in combat and using it. That may be nerfed a bit, but that's a mere side issue.
Ritual Casting is so powerful because:
1. It can do anything within some very broad, narratively directed limits.
2. It can general unlimited shifts if you're willing to put the time and effort into building your ritual. You want to generate a level 30 result that lasts for 100 years? It can do that!
So if Sealing = Ritual Casting, don't worry a bit about it being depowered.
You want to create a floating sky-fortress of doom? Sealing. You want to shift an entire village into another dimension to hide? Sealing? You want to trap a tailed beast in a human soul? Ritual casting totally provides the mechanics for how to do that, so the game will tell you how to do it with Sealing.
Here's the trade-off you're going to get. Sealing will probably be a bit less useful in combat, and in return all of the really big effects that the playerbase has dreamed of will be far more within reach.
EDIT: The trick is that you will need to start thinking in terms of one-off, custom-built for a specific situation/person seals rather than mass produced seals that can be copied 1000 times.
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Cariyaga
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Sealing can already do anything within the limits of your sealing skill, though...?