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If that's the case then every summoner would have access to them and would naturally teach them to other humans.

There were some good arguments in the last 2-3 pages however that, in my opinion, refutes this. Not every summoner would have access to such jutsus due to varied reasons (I don't want to list them again in case you already read the posts so it'd be redundant) and summoning scrolls are pretty rare regardless.

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Or simply put, why is Jiraiya not teaching everyone he knows Sage mode? Why are we not sharing all our pangolin jutsus to anyone out of the clan? There are good reasons this isn't happening which would keep summoning acquired techniques pretty well hidden and isolated even if you adjust for the setting being 1000+ years old.
 
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... are you sure about that?



Yet that is clearly occurring. I don't mind, but it is still clearly occurring.



And i don't think anyone has an issue with this except for the large impact is has in rewrites and plans. Create a new communication jutsu and we will roll with it.



And here we go with the balancing. As I said i don't mind that its occurring, but don't claim its not. As for the reason, I think you have some massive disconnect between how powerful a technique is after dedicating half their life/xp to it, vs being one of several techniques (or 1000 in kakashi's case) in a build. Or even some other rando technique with a similar investment level that was substituted instead.

As for proliferation, it has already been shown how large a PITA it is to get the right to teach an ability to a heir, let alone to 'anyone'. We had to basically hand over an empire changing ability to earn 5 such techniques, a couple of which are elemental and not available to everyone in a clan. And to a certain extend Yes a summoner derived Jutsu is powerful, but summoners tend to be some of the most powerful ninja in existence, I do not understand why you are now of the opinion that that is not the case.

It's worth noting that some justu that we get don't actually benefit as we level (see: the Pangolin Conditioning Jutsu) and that even if you don't have permission to spread a technique it can still be tortured out of you by your enemies. If a summoner has even only a 10% chance of being tortured for techniques as opposed to other deaths, then given a few centuries you'll expect a good deal of summon techniques to have proliferated, and the knowledge in the summon clans that every time you share a technique you put it at risk of proliferating and ending up in the hands of your enemies.
 
I'd argue that the odds of capturing a summoner is significantly lower than 10%. Just like with trying to capture Jounin or even tailed hosts, you have be able to defeat them by such a huge margin that they will not just be able to kill you, themselves or do a reverse summoning when it looks bad; in fact, I would wager that the really smart and experienced summoners nearly always have the smallest possible summon on them that is easy to sustain, easy to hide and which they can use to reverse summon themselves when in trouble.
(I just happen to be at the Arikada arc in my re-read where the points of capturing her alive vs killing her were bring brought up, so that's some nice timing. :V)

If you extend that argument, Shadow Clones should have made it to other Villages by now, no? It's a very good jutsu to have so if people are willing to hunt down summoner's for their jutsus, then surely they must have done the same for the Shadow Clone one.

And finally, Keiko is somewhat of an exception in terms of fighting power and what she was entrusted with by the pangolins. Sure, she isn't bad at combat but in terms of combat prowess she would actually be a prime candidate of being abducted and tortured for information. This is because a lot of the jutsus we earned were from contributions of our whole team and not solely based on the summoner's combat power (like you could argue for Jiraiya and him being gifted Sage mode).
 
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To be fair, I think the frustration is more at things being approved and implemented only for them to be changed/taken away without warning down the line. I'
Fair point. I note that I think this has only happened twice. The first time was TGR, based on a year's experience showing us failings in the system combined with our mistake in how generous we'd been on XP. The second is this time, when we made a mistake on the balancing. We've retconned entire updates when convinced that we'd made a mistake, so the idea that we occasionally retcon some mechanics on which we made a mistake seems reasonable.

Ex: we just lost a jutsu and while we'll get a chance to replace it, we've effectively been handicapped because we're not getting the replacement jutsu in time for this battle (or even to plan with it).
You know, good idea.

Okay, I've talked with @Velorien about it. We'll do an interlude on Thursday, get out the new mechanics, and you can re-plan before the fight.
 
Or simply put, why is Jiraiya not teaching everyone he knows Sage mode?
Sage Mode is exclusive to the incredibly talented. If you mess up your meditation while learning it even once, you get permanently turned into a statue for reasons. Also, there must be other unstated requirements, since Orochimaru had access to it but was explicitly unable to learn it for physiological reasons.

I'd argue that the odds of capturing a summoner is significantly lower than 10%. Just like with trying to capture Jounin or even tailed hosts, you have be able to defeat them by such a huge margin that they will not just be able to kill you, themselves or do a reverse summoning when it looks bad; in fact, I would wager that the really smart and experienced summoners nearly always have the smallest possible summon on them that is easy to sustain, easy to hide and which they can use to reverse summon themselves when in trouble.
There are many ways to defeat someone. Surprise attacks. Traps. Poison. Techniques that do unexpected things just when you thought you were winning. You certainly don't have to capture them - scrolls are indestructible by normal means, so you could happily drop a chakra nuke on a summoner and pull the scroll out of a pile of ash.

Also, and feel free to correct me if I'm misremembering, summon scrolls themselves cannot make the journey to the Seventh Path, meaning you don't want to be reverse-summoned from combat except as an absolute last resort. If this were not the case, every summoner would store their scroll on the Seventh Path. That would make them immune to theft altogether, but would also mean that if the summoner died, the scroll would be stuck on the Seventh Path unless the clan was willing to hand it over to another clan to take to the human world.

If you extend that argument, Shadow Clones should have made it to other Villages by now, no? It's a very good jutsu to have so if people are willing to hunt down summoner's for their jutsus, then surely they must have done the same for the Shadow Clone one.
The Shadow Clone Technique was only invented a couple of generations ago. In addition, there are very few actual users of it, likely due to the hefty chakra requirements.
 
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summon scrolls themselves cannot make the journey to the Seventh Path, meaning you don't want to be reverse-summoned from combat except as an absolute last resort.
Couldn't you just secretly leave your scroll with trusted clan-mates in a heavily guarded compound? You only need it when initiating the contract, right?
 
There are many ways to defeat someone. Surprise attacks. Traps. Poison. Techniques that do unexpected things just when you thought you were winning. You certainly don't have to capture them - scrolls are indestructible by normal means, so you could happily drop a chakra nuke on a summoner and pull the scroll out of a pile of ash.

Also, and feel free to correct me if I'm misremembering, summon scrolls themselves cannot make the journey to the Seventh Path, meaning you don't want to be reverse-summoned from combat except as an absolute last resort. If this were not the case, every summoner would store their scroll on the Seventh Path. That would make them immune to theft altogether, but but also mean that if the summoner died, the scroll would be stuck on the Seventh Path unless the clan was willing to hand it over to another clan to take to the human world.

My assumption is that most Summoners aren't carrying their summon scrolls on their person. They sensibly leave the scroll with their clan, or maybe hidden somewhere if they don't have any heirs they trust.
 
... what's the chance that scorch squads are actually from the summon realm wiping out all information about a summon Jutsu to stop technique proliferation.

P.S. If not, how about our new papa proliferates some of that shadow clone tech around the clan.
 
Sage Mode is exclusive to the incredibly talented. If you mess up your meditation while learning it even once, you get permanently turned into a statue for reasons. Also, there must be other unstated requirements, since Orochimaru had access to it but was explicitly unable to learn it for physiological reasons.
There's at least one way of avoiding that though - the Toads hit their summoners with a special stick to prevent it from happening.
 
P.S. If not, how about our new papa proliferates some of that shadow clone tech around the clan.
There's always the argument that you should only teach it to the likes of Naruto, because they can leverage it to its full potential and having a low number of high-power users will stop it spreading to other villages. It avoids cases like Kakashi, who hardly ever uses the technique because of how hard it hits his chakra, yet could still give it up under torture.
 
There's always the argument that you should only teach it to the likes of Naruto, because they can leverage it to its full potential and having a low number of high-power users will stop it spreading to other villages. It avoids cases like Kakashi, who hardly ever uses the technique because of how hard it hits his chakra, yet could still give it up under torture.

Or the likes of Noburi?

If you need insane chakra pools to use it, he's got that covered. Did you know he only needs 238XP to hit a thousand chakra points?
 
Sage Mode is exclusive to the incredibly talented. If you mess up your meditation while learning it even once, you get permanently turned into a statue for reasons. Also, there must be other unstated requirements, since Orochimaru had access to it but was explicitly unable to learn it for physiological reasons.

Yeah, there are definitely reasons why not every summon-taught technique can be passed on to just anyone. In the case of Sage mode it is pretty obvious but it's not farfetched to come up with reasons for other techniques as well. Maybe having access to PC would only have been possible for Keiko because she shared blood with their summons and outright impossible to teach to anyone not tied as directly to pangolins as her.

Anyway, to get this back on track from where we started: Just because we are able to learn an armor technique does not automatically mean every single summoner will be able to learn the same or equivalent technique because:

- there could be (physiological) restrictions like Sage mode like you mentioned above
- the summoning clan does not want to share their secrets and you haven't offered anything of value (like Skytowers) to convince them otherwise; this could lead to only seeing proven and already skilled people like S-Ranks or top jonins being taught techniques at best, with Chunin level ninjas like Keiko being the super rare exceptions because her contribution to pangolins was not based on combat prowess but ingenuity of her team and the hivemind
- the jutsu takes too long to learn before it offers acceptable benefits (like Ghost Scales right now) so you would only find them on very high end ninjas or not at all (because the summoner died before he could get the jutsu to work properly, see @MadScientist's post about how leveling GS right now completely gimps our other stats)
- not every summoning clan was created equal; some may have more or less compatible jutsus that they are able to share with their summoners
- they can share with you but specialize on one specific thing that you cannot use; again the Sage mode comes to mind, super powerful and much better than Ghost Scales but if you are not able to learn that then the Toad clan might not be able to offer you anything else because all of their techniques build upon Sage mode. Other summoning clans might not have That One Powerful Thing but multiple and varied jutsus like we are seeing from the pangolins


There are many ways to defeat someone. Surprise attacks. Traps. Poison. Techniques that do unexpected things just when you thought you were winning. You certainly don't have to capture them - scrolls are indestructible by normal means, so you could happily drop a chakra nuke on a summoner and pull the scroll out of a pile of ash.

The point was torturing the information out of the summoner him/herself and I still stand by what I said about carrying a tiny summon with you to reverse summon you whenever you are in danger (or kill you if you are 100% certain to get captured if that is something you agreed to beforehand). For the scroll, just keep it stored somewhere else.

And Kagome might throw a proper fit at me even thinking this: But suicide seals on our person should be a thing. Seals that will explode and kill you unless you do activate them every x minutes.

Also, and feel free to correct me if I'm misremembering, summon scrolls themselves cannot make the journey to the Seventh Path, meaning you don't want to be reverse-summoned from combat except as an absolute last resort. If this were not the case, every summoner would store their scroll on the Seventh Path. That would make them immune to theft altogether, but but also mean that if the summoner died, the scroll would be stuck on the Seventh Path unless the clan was willing to hand it over to another clan to take to the human world.

I don't remember offhand if I saw a scene with Jiraiya and/or Naruto together in the summoning realm with the summoning scroll being openly visible on the floor or similar, though going by Occam's Razor: Where else would the scroll have been if not on their person? Canon definitely never went out of their way to show us that the scroll was put into a secure location before Naruto got summoned for his Sage training for example (though one could argue that Kishimoto just never even thought about it one way or another). The smart way would be to store it in a secure location obviously but since we are looking at canon...

And besides, there was also some toad who was basically a living scroll (the key to unlock Kurama's prison or something so it was a proper and working seal) who could leave and enter the summoning realm at will.
Further, browsing through the wiki, Jiraiya is usually seen with a huge scroll that looks like this which suspiciously looks like the summoning contract scroll.

But yeah, basically this is something where I think QMs can decide either way and it would be fine. Either way, there are ways around the limitation by just storing them some place else and not on person.

There's always the argument that you should only teach it to the likes of Naruto, because they can leverage it to its full potential and having a low number of high-power users will stop it spreading to other villages. It avoids cases like Kakashi, who hardly ever uses the technique because of how hard it hits his chakra, yet could still give it up under torture.

I think the plan was to make a farm out of chakra beasts for Noburi to drain at will and only use the Shadow Clone inside clan grounds in a secure location (preferably with anti-Byakugan seals) where Noburi could supercharge all of us for a single clone each, never to be used out of combat so it should remain a secret. For gameplay reasons this could offer XP discounts on training or accelerated seal research and so on.

Or the likes of Noburi?

If you need insane chakra pools to use it, he's got that covered. Did you know he only needs 238XP to hit a thousand chakra points?

I'd be wary of letting Noburi use this in combat when we could just focus on the Water Clone for him. Shadow Clone's main advantages are scouting and being able to accelerate training. For combat use, Water Clone should be able to do anything Noburi would want them too, right? Neither clone can use his blood line after all so the obvious strategy of doubling the drain rate on people caught in Mist and doubling the recharge rate of his allies wouldn't work anyway.

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At the risk of turning into @eaglejarl: I want punching and I want it tomorrow. Think of Lee and how disappointed he must be to go weeks between punching.

 
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Or the likes of Noburi?

If you need insane chakra pools to use it, he's got that covered. Did you know he only needs 238XP to hit a thousand chakra points?
Two or so years ago, there must have been a conversation between the QMs along the lines of "Sure, we can let them have companions with low-power Bloodline Limits. It makes sense in-story, and, after all, what could possibly go wrong?"
 
Here are some mechanics for you to modify at your discretion, if you haven't already written up mechanics for the jutsu.

(I'm modeling the costs after a Kakashi that has 350 CP (low for a jonin?) Who can create one or two shadow clones for tactical reasons, but cannot spam them, and a Naruto who can. Additionally, it's supposed to be an easy jutsu to learn, just incredibly taxing. I've tried to model this with very harsh attribute requirements, but making the skill easy to learn on it's own- you only need like, 10 levels in it after all.)

Kage Bunshin No Jutsu:
Requirements: Resolve* .25, Stamina* .25, Regeneration *.25

Allows the caster to create corporeal, sentient clones of themselves. These clones are fragile, and anything that would break a henge would also disrupt the clone. (AKA A-Class wounds?)
These clones are identical to the caster stat wise, and other than their fragility and knowing that they are clones, are exact duplicates.

Upon destruction, the user must re-integrate both the fatigue and the memories of the shadow clones. Shadow clones that spent time learning difficult material or having significantly different experiences than the user can paralyze the user as they integrate the information, causing serious damage in the worst of cases, determined by authorial fiat. (Dice would be good here, but I dunno?) (Things like, having five clones going all studying different branches of sealing, or sending several off to different villages, and then having them all burst at once when you get knocked out.)

Upon destruction, the user can gain up to 1 exp per 10 levels of Kage Bunshin No Jutsu per day without triggering prolonged paralysis. The exp awarded this way is skill specific, as determined by the QM's upon awarding it. (IE You may be forced to put it toward to leveling Taijutsu)

Shadow clones only propagate information back to their parent node upon bursting.
(Probably more trouble than it's worth?)

The users chakra is evenly spread among the themself and the clones created, and whatever chakra they have left over at the time of dispersion is returned to the caster. It also requires an up front cost of 100 chakra per clone created, which does not get returned upon destruction. The clones do not regenerate chakra on their own.

The caster can maintain a number of shadow clones equal to his Kage Bunshin No Jutsu level. Your chakra regeneration is reduced to 1/(X+1), where X is equal to the number of active shadow clones, as the extra chakra is diverted to maintaining their forms.

This jutsu can kill you. (A stupid genin casting it with only 90 CP)
 
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On the one hand, shadow-clones for training is clearly broken. On the other hand, it's clearly broken in canon too. But let's see what we can do.

Martial-arts is, in large part, about building up your myelin sheath. Shadow-clones can give you muscle-memory, but not the grace, reflexes, coordination, or muscle-mass to use those techniques. Time spent on physical training is 1/3rd as effective as conventional training? Obviously, you can't use it for physical conditioning.

Mental skills, well I'd argue there's a strong case for only being able to have one entity working in one area at a time. If two clones or a clone and the original are both making original progress in tacmove, and that knowledge overlaps, I'd expect confusion to happen. They zig when they should zag, etc. So you can't have more than one entity studying one thing, still.
 
On the one hand, shadow-clones for training is clearly broken. On the other hand, it's clearly broken in canon too. But let's see what we can do.

Martial-arts is, in large part, about building up your myelin sheath. Shadow-clones can give you muscle-memory, but not the grace, reflexes, coordination, or muscle-mass to use those techniques. Time spent on physical training is 1/3rd as effective as conventional training? Obviously, you can't use it for physical conditioning.

Mental skills, well I'd argue there's a strong case for only being able to have one entity working in one area at a time. If two clones or a clone and the original are both making original progress in tacmove, and that knowledge overlaps, I'd expect confusion to happen. They zig when they should zag, etc. So you can't have more than one entity studying one thing, still.
That's the opposite of my intuition. There'd definitely be diminishing returns because of overlapping lessons learned, but that's part of why it's even possible. If the clones practiced completely different domains, they'd have wayyyy more novel information to integrate, potentially causing brain-meltingly bad issues. (A-la staying henged forever.)
 
I'd be perfectly fine with limiting the use of SCs to one per character and only in specific situations like training where you have enough prep time to dole out CPs.
This is mostly because of balance reasons though and while I get people are upset about nerfs and rebalancing in general, the quest would get boring fast if we were allowed to actually exploit SCs like Naruto did in canon.
 
Hmm, I'm imagining that merges are the dangerous part. When you merge two sets of experiences, errors can happen. If you commit, fork to clone1, make some changes in the original, than merge clone1, weird things can happen. That's why it's best if two clones don't edit the same "file". The difference between integration being a novel process, and the clones just straight-up overwriting parts of your brain, I guess.

Actually, eclipse phase has mechanics for handling this. Eclipse Phase Second Edition: Quick-Start Rules - Posthuman Studios LLC | Eclipse Phase | Eclipse Phase Adventures | Eclipse Phase core rulebooks | Print on Demand | DriveThruRPG.com
 
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Or the likes of Noburi?

If you need insane chakra pools to use it, he's got that covered. Did you know he only needs 238XP to hit a thousand chakra points?

Of course, one could make the argument that Noburi is fundamentally incapable of using Shadow Clone. He stores his chakra externally, so it might be impossible for him to distribute it to his clones when creating them. That is, he could power the technique, but each clone would then be created with zero chakra.... or worse, divide the limited chakra he has in his own body and send him into immediate chakra exhaustion. It's almost certain his barrel and existing chakra water could not be duplicated.
 
Hmm, I'm imagining that merges are the dangerous part. When you merge two sets of experiences, errors can happen. If you commit, fork to clone1, make some changes in the original, than merge clone1, weird things can happen. That's why it's best if two clones don't edit the same "file".

Actually, eclipse phase has mechanics for handling this. Eclipse Phase Second Edition: Quick-Start Rules - Posthuman Studios LLC | Eclipse Phase | Eclipse Phase Adventures | Eclipse Phase core rulebooks | Print on Demand | DriveThruRPG.com
You can resolve that like this.

Naruto Prime creates a single shadow clone
  • Clone 1 creates a single shadow clone
    • Clone 2 creates a single shadow clone
      • Clone 3 chills out.
When you're done, you just merge them back in reverse chronological order.

Oooor, just have it the way canon does, and make it so every clone updates every other clone upon bursting.
 
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Another common use, at least in fanon, is to just simply let your clone watch you train. For example, Hazo could spar with Akane and have his clone observe at some distance then pop after the spar. Now he has two PoVs of the same spar and may be able to draw conclusions on what to do better next time more easily than if he only had one PoV to draw upon.
 
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