Voting is open for the next 17 hours, 56 minutes
If we tell this man about the EM Nuke and then show this man the EM Nuke in action at this fight, he is just going to kill us. 100000%, straight up, our ass is grass, guaranteed.

If you're looking to live forever, some brat who is objectively better than you at fucking with the fundamental forces of the cosmos running around and making nukes, well, that's kind of a non-starter I would think.

The team being spooked about the surgery isn't even particularly compelling evidence for or against this. Honestly, they spook way too easy about nonstandard stuff. If we told them about SSA/DoB we'd be chained up in a padded room somewhere. Ain't nobody got time for that.
The major difference is that us getting biosealed gives Orochimaru power over us, but us revealing EM Nuke Runes reveals that Hazou is an existential threat to Orochimaru. Revealing the EM Nuke Rune tells Orochimaru that a) Hazou is capable of inventing civilization-ending weapons; b) Hazou is willing to deploy civilization-ending weapons; and c) Orochimaru is not likely to survive if Hazou decides to deploy civilization-ending weapons against him. The only way to stop Hazou from, at some future point, deploying civilization-ending weapons and killing or otherwise massively-inconveniencing Orochimaru, is by killing Hazou first (or Basement'ing him, but that's the same thing).

This is something that Orochimaru, based on my model of him, cannot abide. He's already concerned about runecraft proliferation given what we know; Hazou showing how easy it is for a runecrafter to end civilization would make Orochimaru want to kill him even if Hazou didn't show the ability to do it personally.

EDIT: Also what Emstar said.

Okay I think I understand why this reasoning wasn't making sense to me before: what (to you two or anyone else who believes the same) functionally is the difference in spooking Orochimaru between unleashing EM nukes and resurrecting Leaf S-rankers?

We (to my understanding) currently plan on securing the Rift site so that we can have enough firepower to protect Konoha from all of the reprisals Akatsuki survivors and/or AMITY sends at Leaf for working with international criminals. These S-rankers will pose just as much of an existential threat to Orochimaru as Hiruzen, Jiraiya, Hashirama, Tobirama, and Minato ideally will all come back.

How we open the Rift is in itself an existential risk to Orochimaru. We're not just adding firepower to the world at large but we would be consolidating it under one village's banner and with Akatsuki (ideally) eliminated Orochimaru would be one of the few S-rankers left that they would have to concern themselves with.

Given that desired eventuality I would assume it would be better to have Oro witness us unleashing hitherto unfathomable destruction so he thinks twice before ganking us at the Rift site. If we are still concerned about sudden betrayal we can have Naruto and Tsunade standing by while we nuke the Rift site if we believe all of Akatsuki's S-rankers are stationed there. WMD Proliferation is a long term problem compared to Pain coming back after all.
 
We (to my understanding) currently plan on securing the Rift site so that we can have enough firepower to protect Konoha from all of the reprisals Akatsuki survivors and/or AMITY sends at Leaf for working with international criminals. These S-rankers will pose just as much of an existential threat to Orochimaru as Hiruzen, Jiraiya, Hashirama, Tobirama, and Minato ideally will all come back.

That is not my current estimate of how this is going to actually play out in motion, no. Insofar as AMITY reprisal is concerned, I expect we will probably be using Force Domes to save Leaf from immediate threats if that becomes a problem.

I don't believe we have any indication that diving into the Rift, in actuality, is going to be quick and easy even if we get it open. On the contrary, it is likely to take a lot of time solving that problem, so any ideas we have for how to solve the AMITY reprisal issue shouldn't count on anything productive happening with the afterlife Rift IMO.
 
    • Enact deterrents:
      • Would he swear oaths in front of Summons?
      • We've enacted deadman switches but would prefer a more collaborative approach.
        • Refuse to discuss any details of the switches.
  • Conditional on Orochimaru offering some assurance, accept the seals.
    • After all, cowardice and ambition are incompatible, and we want the Akatsuki and death defeated.
I don't think it's been said enough, but I really like this section. Especially the parts I highlighted. Thank you, FS. This is a wonderful plan.
 
But... we DO trust him enough to let him do incredibly risky surgeries on Hazou that our team unilaterally vehemently opposes..?
Personally I trust him with neither biosealing Hazo nor knowledge of EM nukes (or to be precise I don't think they are worth the increased chance of winning rift war), but that's a minority opinion.

My prediction though is that a bioseal killswitch will be an insurance policy to prevent Hazo from opposing him rather than just a timebomb to be triggered subsequently after rift war.

As for revealing potentially world ending weapons, Orochimaru was willing to work with Akatsuki up until Pain unveiled his plan to end the world as we know it. Finally, I model Orochimau as not trusting Hazo with EM nukes because I don't trust Hazo with EM nukes either.
 
[X] Action Plan: Negotiating as Men

Even if they disobey it shows we're dead serious about it.
That's a terrible idea. Never, ever give an order you know won't be obeyed, doing so just degrades your own authority to no useful effect.
And Conjura might also align with Itachi, in the middle of the fight if we're unlucky. Which means that Ruri doesn't need to be invited either, making it one less jonin/summoner that inexplicably goes missing from Leaf.
Conjura probably shouldn't be involved in the actual fighting, but might be worth including to reduce transit times. If spacetime jutsu can get Tsunade and friends from Leaf to the staging area for the fortress assault faster than Kisame and Itachi can play telephone-tag, that gets us a full strike force AND the element of surprise, best of both worlds.
I would prefer discussing some sort details of the deadman's switch...
Nah. Either he thinks the deadman switch is credible based on prior knowledge, or he doesn't. There's nothing we could reveal that would increase the perceived threat without an equal or greater downside - even if it's not enough detail for him to think of countermeasures, he'd lose some respect for anyone flaunting sloppy OPSEC procedures.
 
That is not my current estimate of how this is going to actually play out in motion, no. Insofar as AMITY reprisal is concerned, I expect we will probably be using Force Domes to save Leaf from immediate threats if that becomes a problem.

I don't believe we have any indication that diving into the Rift, in actuality, is going to be quick and easy even if we get it open. On the contrary, it is likely to take a lot of time solving that problem, so any ideas we have for how to solve the AMITY reprisal issue shouldn't count on anything productive happening with the afterlife Rift IMO.

How are we deploying Force Domes over Leaf if Hazou will have to spend the majority of his time researching Rift runes? I was under the impression that we would be doing Rift research under a runic Force Dome at the very least to ensure no one can disturb us.

If we can confirm with Tsunade that all 6 S-rankers are outside of Leaf we can set up a massive runic Force Dome before heading to the Rift site, but removing 2 or more Akatsuki members from Leaf before erecting (but not activating so we can leave for the Rift site) the defensive rune would be challenging and probably cause a LOT of collateral damage and deaths.

If we somehow have enough time after finishing the Rift runes and retrieve our S-rankers but the rescued ninja need time to recuperate, I suppose we could spend some time on a hybrid of RER+Superchillers to enact Mutually Assured Destruction to pause AMITY's assault on Leaf? The main downside (that I can see) of Superchillers is that they cannot be launched at static targets: where you infuse the rune is where its effect will be. They are shit for rapid deployment which is why I am so concerned about what are plans for what comes after we secure the Rift site.

Personally I trust him with neither biosealing Hazo nor knowledge of EM nukes (or to be precise I don't think they are worth the increased chance of winning rift war), but that's a minority opinion.

My prediction though is that a bioseal killswitch will be an insurance policy to prevent Hazo from opposing him rather than just a timebomb to be triggered immediately after rift war.

As for revealing potentially world ending weapons, Orochimaru was willing to work with Akatsuki up until Pain unveiled his plan to end the world as we know it. Finally, I model Orochimau as not trusting Hazo with EM nukes because I don't trust Hazo with EM nukes either.

I just don't see the appeal of any long term strategy ultimately relying on Orochimaru's tender mercies given his track record. Our team was right in that Mari correctly modeled how Orochimaru views people:

"A static amount depending on the donor's coils," Orochimaru replied. "I have the materials to create the bioseal, but donors are limited. I could use Endō..."
"Hazou," Mari said, turning to face him. "Don't take Orochimaru's bioseal. He doesn't see you as a person. I don't think he sees anyone as a person, except maybe Tsunade. Everyone else is 'a tool', or 'a part', or 'an obstacle'. We spoke just a few days back about how Orochimaru needed to get you out of the picture to secure his monopoly on runecrafting. If you give him the opportunity, why wouldn't he remove an irritating obstacle?"

If we are afraid of what Orochimaru might do I would much rather have Tsunade and Naruto by our side as we unleash Superchillers on Akatsuki. Oro is going to become afraid of us eventually as he discovers on his own just how destructive runes can be so it might as well be on our terms.
 
Significant plan updates (mostly cuts of unpopular sections) + critique of @FaintlySorcerous' plan.
[X] Action Plan: Negotiating as Men
My concerns:

1. How does this plan respond to Orochimaru arguing that Hazou should accept the bioseals even if it kills him, because the Akatsuki's victory would be that much worse than Hazou's death? If we don't have some grounding for arguing that accepting a higher chance of losing the world to the Akatsuki is better than letting Orochimaru end up the sole runecrafter, I see one of two ways this plays out:
  • Orochimaru treats Hazou's demands as a bluff, refuses to entertain them, and poses us an ultimatum: either we accept the bioseals, or he refuses to provide us substrate and expects us to blink first. Two can play the arbitrary-demand game.
  • Orochimaru takes Hazou's demands seriously, and re-interprets Hazou as a total hypocrite who'd let the world burn just to save his own hide, with all his talk of "Uplift" being empty words. He may or may not bend to our demands afterwards, but Hazou would completely lose any respect Orochimaru had for him.
I. e., as-is this is guaranteed to destroy our current relationship, and perhaps sabotage the entire Rift Assault plan (due to, basically, two overly volatile personalities clashing and ending up pathologically unable to cooperate). We need some justification for why Hazou's death at Oro's hands is worse-by-our-values than a 50% (or whatever percentage) higher chance of the Akatsuki's total victory. Else he just won't take this seriously.

Like, our position is just genuinely incoherent otherwise.

2. We need to get the rest of Team Uplift outside Oro's grasp before we initiate these negotiations. I think it's plausible that he scouted out our location using minions/Summons/??? biosealing abilities, and that his response to our demands would be to capture everyone, then use a combination of threats and mind-control tools (potentially extremely limited, but see what he did to Ren) to make Hazou print runes and Noburi redistribute chakra.

If the rest of the team gets away, however, Oro's definitely denied at least Noburi, which means he has to go nab another Wakahisa, which greatly increases the chance the Akatsuki are forewarned (see Oro's speculations that they seized control over the chakra-redistribution bloodlines worldwide).

Also, Mari being outside his grasp is the only way our dead man's switches work (and it's plausible that he infers/guesses that our mysterious dead man's switch is bound up in one of our teammates).

3.
Tone:
  • Respectful but firm. Negotiating as men.
  • Motivated by rational self-preservation: not unthinking fear or morality.
The aim of the corresponding section in my plan is to strike a very specific tone: where we view Orochimaru not as a potentially hostile person with whom we need to engage in posturing, but as an agent with values orthogonal to our own. The aim of that framing/posture is to dissolve any attempts at a status game, which the framing of "negotiating as men do" necessarily involves. It's an invitation to treat each other as systems which neutrally pursue different goals, such that getting mad at each other is as coherent at getting mad at gravity for making water flow downhill.

I think that framing would go over better. For one, it should nullify any potential posturing about honour that Orochimaru may attempt. If we're volitionless systems, the only way to make each other do what we want is to change the objective circumstances of our situation. You don't make two streams merge into one by yelling at them; you do it by digging.

4.
We've enacted deadman switches but would prefer a more collaborative approach.
I'd prefer phrasing it as "we can enact dead man's switches", not "we have already done so". Considerably less aggressive, IMO. And ties in better with my preceding point about the tone. If there are no other options, he would want us to enact the dead man's switches so that we can coordinate, and getting his buy-in before enacting them signals our good faith much better (whereas going into the meeting with the dead man's switches already active signals adversarialness).
I'd really like Hazou to inform Team Uplift about our decision, or at least a scene about it. Coach it being about how Hazou really does need the bioseals, or at least the blood-replacing one, and he cannot concieve of an outcome where we win without his contributions.
Eh, I don't really want another meeting scene about this. I can add something like this in if you really want it.
  • I'm not a fan of Hazou not trusting Orochimaru to be honorable "enough". I would frame it something like "Given the value of runecrafting, Hazou can forsee futures where Orochimaru defects in spite of his efforts to be honorable" or something along those lines.
  • I'm partial to Orochimaru getting Tsunade involved moreso than the Snakes; but an alternative would be Orochimaru swearing to Tsunade on the Seventh Path that he doesn't intend to add traps to Hazou's bioseals, or to get Tsunade to poke Naruto so he can reinstate Hazou as a Leaf-nin in good standing.
    • Implicating the EM Nuke deadman's switch...I don't like it, and would prefer it to not be suggested.
  • I'm not a fan of the BATNA, not just the consequence (gamble on Hidan, don't summon Cannai) but also the justification. I'm having a bit of trouble putting it into words, but I don't see Orochimaru as being the sort of individual who Hazou dreamed about way back when. He'll certainly commit atrocities, yes, but not the sort that turns the whole world into his oyster.
  • Ironically, I'm not a fan of the "exchanging additional binding promises" part. My read of Orochimaru is that he gets annoyed at such things and is more likely to work around them than anything else. Is this section really necessary for the current situation?
  • I just cut that line completely.
  • Partly done.
  • We do need something, as argued in the criticism of @FaintlySorcerous' plan. Better ideas welcome.
  • I cut that.

Noumero does say to "Stress-test Hazou's negotiating position with Kei. Ensure it's logically sound, consistent, dispassionate.", though IMO it should really say to test it with the whole squad and not just Kei.
I really think those checks are more effective if we specify what exactly we want them to "optimize" and who is supposed to do that and how. My eyes, at least, are just glazing over "optimize with the team" at this point, and I expect the QMs feels similarly.

But fine, done.

I'd like to see 'Immediately after the Riftwar, open the rift, confirm that deaths near the rift on one end appear near the other end, then kill+rez Hazou to clear bioseals" on this list
We don't know that those killed near the rift respawn near it, and that death carries no other consequences. We shouldn't do that.
Missing "Optimize all with Uplift"
Done.
Ping me if you remove these, and I'll vote.
Done.

I fully expect Orochimaru to relegate us to NPC status if we say this. We're suggesting that the value of our rune designs is greater than his unencumbered research. This is impossibly arrogant and it's motivated by our personal ethics. I like our ethics but this just isn't the time or place for it.
Eh, maybe. I think it can be fixed, but sure, I just removed that whole section.

I like the spirit, but I don't think this is something that can be accomplished with just a few lines. Orochimaru is famously of the opinion that no two immortals can truly coexist with each other, that values differences will inevitably bring them into conflict, and I think that's going to be relevant here too. If his baseline expectation is that "long-term" invariably means either he or us is dead, we'll be fighting an uphill battle to convince him that compromises like these meant to foster long-term coexistence are worthwhile.

Personally, though, I think we can still put something somewhat similar here. In this chapter Orochimaru sees very clearly how his biosealing abilities make common-sense cooperation hard. This would not be as much the case if Hazou was himself a biosealer and capable of counteracting or at least detecting malfeseance in times of cooperation. We can handle the hard part ourselves, but we could use this to ask for permission to learn biosealing from one of his minions after this is over.

Or, of course, you could double down on this angle while we have him in the room. Just, we'll probably need a more complete argument to convince him.
Removed that whole section for now; we can revisit it later if the current negotiations bear fruit.

Have you put any thought into Jiraiya? Presumably, we are going to teach him Runecraft once he is resurrected. That will drastically change the balance of power in the Runecraft Cabal, perhaps in a way that Orochimaru might not like.
I don't think talking about this at this point is going to be productive...?
Done.


[x] Action Plan: Snuncle Warcrimes Experiences the Consequences of His Actions
Word count: <400
  • Meet with Orochimaru, as a SC. Topic: a complication regarding bioseals.
  • Preparations:
    • The others travel several kilometers in an arbitrary direction, only return if Hazou gives an all-clear via the Seventh Path.
      • If Hazou doesn't report/reports days later, assume he's dead/compromised.
      • If Hazou couldn't reach a deal without the EM deadman's switch, Mari doesn't return. She lays low for weeks/months. If Leaf wins, but she learns of Hazou's death, lack of public appearances, or out-of-character behavior, she proliferates EM-nuke knowledge.
    • Stress-test Hazou's negotiating position with the team. Ensure it's logically sound, consistent, dispassionate.
  • Tone: Pragmatic yet cooperative.
    • Hazou's actions aren't motivated by fear/hate towards Orochimaru. We're agents with misaligned goals, not volatile humans.
    • Hazou's eager to work with Orochimaru to move past this mutually-inconvenient conundrum, and bears no ill will.
  • Points:
    • Orochimaru may expect Hazou, as a runecrafter, to eventually become a credible threat to him. And currently, he may view him as a runecrafting-infosec risk.
    • Orochimaru's skilled enough to implant a delayed-action kill-switch into Hazou, alongside other bioseals, or give him a lethal disease. Per above, doing that is arguably optimal for Orochimaru once Hazou's help against the Akatsuki is unneeded.
    • How can the situation be changed such that doing it is no longer Orochimaru-optimal?
  • Preliminary ideas: (Assess their sufficiency with the team first; include their analyses. These ideas are likely insufficient.)
    • We exfiltrate Tsunade ASAP. Orochimaru swears to her that he intends no foul play, and/or she oversees Hazou's surgery.
    • Orochimaru summons Manda and swears that he intends no foul play, and stakes his Summoner status on it.
    • Hazou can set up a deadman's switch which would cause consequences that'd be worse for Orochimaru than Hazou's continued existence. (Don't share the details.)
      • Highly suboptimal. Ideally, we avoid this.
  • BATNA: Assault proceeds without Cannai. We hope Hidan is asleep/absent/outranged/has blood-sense deactivated.
    • Arguably, Hazou should get bioseals even if he expects Orochimaru to kill him, because preventing the Akatsuki's victory is worth Hazou's death.
    • Hazou disagrees. He considers it possible that if Orochimaru monopolizes runecrafting and the rift, he'll turn the world into his torture-Basement.
    • Not because he's "evil", but because it might be optimal for getting more research done. He has demonstrated complete indifference to his subjects' suffering.
    • That's in-expectation worse than the Akatsuki's victory, or extinction. (If Orochimaru reveals new information about the Akatsuki's supposedly-nightmarish final goals, distrust it.)
 
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Besides, we've already enacted one. It would be lying to say otherwise.
Nope. We will have enacted the "if Orochimaru attacks Hazou during this negotiation, don't return" dead man's switch. The "Mari spreads EM nukes" dead man's switch is now only enacted if Hazou says to enact it after the meeting with Orochimaru (by telling Mari to split).
 
The "Mari spreads EM nukes" dead man's switch is now only enacted if Hazou says to enact it after the meeting with Orochimaru (by telling Mari to split).
My understanding is that Mari has already said she will spread the knowledge if we die.

So we are disabling our current deadman switch, meeting with him (where he could feasibly mindwhammy us), and then potentially reactivating it upon our meeting with our group?

Anyway, it's tangential to my main point. I prefer the stronger language [regarding deadman switches] in FS's plan.
 
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. How does this plan respond to Orochimaru arguing that Hazou should accept the bioseals even if it kills him, because the Akatsuki's victory would be that much worse than Hazou's death? If we don't have some grounding for arguing that accepting a higher chance of losing the world to the Akatsuki is better than letting Orochimaru end up the sole runecrafter, I see one of two ways this plays out:
  • Orochimaru treats Hazou's demands as a bluff, refuses to entertain them, and poses us an ultimatum: either we accept the bioseals, or he refuses to provide us substrate and expects us to blink first. Two can play the arbitrary-demand game.
  • Orochimaru takes Hazou's demands seriously, and re-interprets Hazou as a total hypocrite who'd let the world burn just to save his own hide, with all his talk of "Uplift" being empty words. He may or may not bend to our demands afterwards, but Hazou would completely lose any respect Orochimaru had for him.
I. e., as-is this is guaranteed to destroy our current relationship, and perhaps sabotage the entire Rift Assault plan (due to, basically, two overly volatile personalities clashing and ending up pathologically unable to cooperate). We need some justification for why Hazou's death at Oro's hands is worse-by-our-values than a 50% (or whatever percentage) higher chance of the Akatsuki's total victory. Else he just won't take this seriously.

Like, our position is just genuinely incoherent otherwise.
I expect Orochimaru to have no issue with our prioritizing our survival over everything else. This is his value system and he's smart enough to respect others having the same values.

Put another way: in the world where Orochimaru is unscrupulous, he will provide reassurances and oaths and defect. In the world where he is scrupulous, he will recognize that we are asking for something which is trivial for him to give (a reassurance he won't do something he wasn't going to do anyway).

If he gets annoyed that we'd even dare to imply that he might do something unscrupulous despite our having explained why we think he has incentives to act unscrupulously and having come to him in good faith...well, that's just irrational and he hasn't acted irrationally thus far.

This is part of why I never wanted to frame this as a negotiation position, but a request for help. The fact of the matter is that we're taking these seals no matter what, both because that's the will of the playerbase (I'd rather be Orochimaru's puppet than Pain's) and because my condition for taking the seals is one he can satisfy trivially.
2. We need to get the rest of Team Uplift outside Oro's grasp before we initiate these negotiations. I think it's plausible that he scouted out our location using minions/Summons/??? biosealing abilities, and that his response to our demands would be to capture everyone, then use a combination of threats and mind-control tools (potentially extremely limited, but see what he did to Ren) to make Hazou print runes and Noburi redistribute chakra.

If the rest of the team gets away, however, Oro's definitely denied at least Noburi, which means he has to go nab another Wakahisa, which greatly increases the chance the Akatsuki are forewarned (see Oro's speculations that they seized control over the chakra-redistribution bloodlines worldwide).

Also, Mari being outside his grasp is the only way our dead man's switches work (and it's plausible that he infers/guesses that our mysterious dead man's switch is bound up in one of our teammates).
I agree and I'll update my plan.
The aim of the corresponding section in my plan is to strike a very specific tone: where we view Orochimaru not as a potentially hostile person with whom we need to engage in posturing, but as an agent with values orthogonal to our own. The aim of that framing/posture is to dissolve any attempts at a status game, which the framing of "negotiating as men do" necessarily involves. It's an invitation to treat each other as systems which neutrally pursue different goals, such that getting mad at each other is as coherent at getting mad at gravity for making water flow downhill.

I think that framing would go over better. For one, it should nullify any potential posturing about honour that Orochimaru may attempt. If we're volitionless systems, the only way to make each other do what we want is to change the objective circumstances of our situation. You don't make two streams merge into one by yelling at them; you do it by digging.
Negotiating as men is not playing a status game; it's declaring that you trust your opposite party to act with honour and therefore not peppering them with legalese. I'll clarify this.
I'd prefer phrasing it as "we can enact dead man's switches", not "we have already done so". Considerably less aggressive, IMO. And ties in better with my preceding point about the tone. If there are no other options, he would want us to enact the dead man's switches so that we can coordinate, and getting his buy-in before enacting them signals our good faith much better (whereas going into the meeting with the dead man's switches already active signals adversarialness).
I do not want to lie to Orochimaru - he can likely beat our Deceit. We're also showing up as Prime, so we must have already set up any deadman switches.

I'll make some updates. I appreciate the critiques even if I don't agree with all of them; thank you for taking the time to write this out.
 
Well, I was specifically referring to the deadman language in the quote you mentioned. But, there's also this if you want to know about other parts of the plan.

    • Enact deterrents:
      • Would he swear oaths in front of Summons?
      • We've enacted deadman switches but would prefer a more collaborative approach.
        • Refuse to discuss any details of the switches.
  • Conditional on Orochimaru offering some assurance, accept the seals.
    • After all, cowardice and ambition are incompatible, and we want the Akatsuki and death defeated.
I don't think it's been said enough, but I really like this section. Especially the parts I highlighted. Thank you, FS. This is a wonderful plan.
I don't think it's been said enough, but I really like this section. Especially the parts I highlighted. Thank you, FS. This is a wonderful plan.

I do also have a mild preference how you have the summon path deterrent be specifically to Manda.

Other than that, my biggest critique of FS's plan is how the Uplift section is currently worded. I love the last two lines, but I really do worry that I'm going to end up reading a fairly large amount of ultimately pointless words of the rest of the team telling us not to proceed come Sunday.
 
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Can't lie, I don't see Orochimaru using Bio-sealing to kill Hazou and I'm not sure why they think he would. If Orochimaru wants Hazou dead, he can leisurely take a walk to our location at any moment and solostomp our entire team. We're not exactly his peer in combat.
 
I expect Orochimaru to have no issue with our prioritizing our survival over everything else. This is his value system and he's smart enough to respect others having the same values.
I don't know about that, this is certainly not what we've been preaching with the whole Uplift thing. I think this is just straightforwardly inconsistent.

Add a line explicitly stating that, masks off, we're ultimately concerned with our own survival first, with winning the Riftwar second, and that we'd rather chance navigating the world under the Akatsuki rather than accepting death at Oro's hands? That'd make it consistent.

(Honestly, I actually do think this is straightforwardly inconsistent; Team Uplift is basically strong-arming us into it. I think "ignore them and get the bioseals anyway" is legit the most IC approach.)

Negotiating as men is not playing a status game; it's declaring that you trust your opposite party to act with honour and therefore not peppering them with legalese. I'll clarify this.
Arguing from being honorable is a status game to a large extent, because honor is largely about social perception. That said, I do think the posture you're taking might work as well. I still prefer mine, though.
 
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Anyway, it's tangential to my main point. I prefer the stronger language in FS's plan.
Personally, I see red flags galore in the phrasing of FS' plan.
His bioseals offer tactical advantages but significant strategic risks. Our incentives are aligned now, but what about after the battle?
Failure mode: Hazou reads too anxious, Orochimaru sees this not as Hazou stating game theory logic but Hazou being fearful.
He's the world's greatest biosealer. We expect he could malignantly seal us during the procedure.
Failure mode: again Hazou reads as fearful, not dispassionately voicing capabilities but rather conforming to the stereotype of Oro-fear.
What would he do in our position, and why?
Failure mode: theatrics. Orochimaru is not going to care to listen to us think through all the logic, let alone preface it with chapter headings. He is now annoyed that we're wasting his time on top of annoyed that we're being the stereotypical coward.
Could she examine us afterwards to detect anything untoward?
Failure mode: weak energy. It reads as a tentative, cautious question, like we're not even confident in this idea, let alone whether it'd work.
We'd feel safer with a public (e.g., to someone he respects) commitment on his part.
Failure mode: opening with words like "public commitment" when we really mean that Tsunade still commands his respect is going to produce a convoluted argument that irritates him and dilutes our point.

There are more. Most notably, I didn't repeat "theatrics" failure modes when really that could have been said a couple more times. And yes, sure, you say that Hazou strives for a tone of non-fear, but I don't think that's actually going to ensure Hazoupilot reads your lines in a way that doesn't read as fear. In fact, my first intuitive expectation upon reading those lines is that Hazoupilot would indeed say them in a way that reads as fear despite any disclaimers.

Overall I must simply say that the vibes are off. This is not a plan that understands Orochimaru, and I will be sticking with Noumero's plan that actually engages him properly.
 
Personally, I see red flags galore in the phrasing of FS' plan.
I was referring specifically to the deadman phrasing when I said that. You're the second person to think it was the whole thing, so I think I'm going to go back and change it.

I'm actually in agreement with some of your phrasing concerns in the rest of the plan.
 
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Personally, I see red flags galore in the phrasing of FS' plan.

Failure mode: Hazou reads too anxious, Orochimaru sees this not as Hazou stating game theory logic but Hazou being fearful.

Failure mode: again Hazou reads as fearful, not dispassionately voicing capabilities but rather conforming to the stereotype of Oro-fear.

Failure mode: theatrics. Orochimaru is not going to care to listen to us think through all the logic, let alone preface it with chapter headings. He is now annoyed that we're wasting his time on top of annoyed that we're being the stereotypical coward.

Failure mode: weak energy. It reads as a tentative, cautious question, like we're not even confident in this idea, let alone whether it'd work.

Failure mode: opening with words like "public commitment" when we really mean that Tsunade still commands his respect is going to produce a convoluted argument that irritates him and dilutes our point.

There are more. Most notably, I didn't repeat "theatrics" failure modes when really that could have been said a couple more times. And yes, sure, you say that Hazou strives for a tone of non-fear, but I don't think that's actually going to ensure Hazoupilot reads your lines in a way that doesn't read as fear. In fact, my first intuitive expectation upon reading those lines is that Hazoupilot would indeed say them in a way that reads as fear despite any disclaimers.

Overall I must simply say that the vibes are off. This is not a plan that understands Orochimaru, and I will be sticking with Noumero's plan that actually engages him properly.

@FaintlySorcerous Just boosting this, I think these points are pretty insightful, as a voter for your plan.

Ditto, I think IV lays out some good points here that I personally think would lead to more beneficial outcomes if they're adequately addressed.
 
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