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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Kiba said:
Since we presumably leveled Hazou's MechApt, I propose a simple project: the pantograph, an often-discussed project.

It is a simple mechanical device that can be made to duplicate drawings, which was not invented until 1603 IRL, where as the printing press was invented in 1440.

Given that sealmasters probably do not specialize in MechApt, I considered this far from obvious. Their to-go tools for inventing things is probably sealing first, or learning to draw faster, rather than mechanical means.

For Hazou to hit on the concept and invent the idea, we'll need to lay the breadcrumbs.

Source of inspiration:

  • Hazou wishing he has an extra set of an arms so he can draw more seals at the same time.
  • Hazou knowing that a machine existed in Konoha that printed books. He imagines it to be a series of arms.
  • Hazou learning from books about the concept of 'translating' a shape, and then hitting on the idea of keeping brushes at the same distance from each other.
  • Hazou noting that the arms bend when he draw.

Any ideas? Comment? Criticism?

What does the pantograph means for sealing in general? How lethal would that make the team?
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A couple things come to mind.

You're going to need to invent some sort of pen. Brushes would seem to require a 5-axis polygraph to be practical.

While the idea of micro-seals is certainly tempting, this technology raises the possibility of making invisible seals viable for anybody rather than just somebody with the iron nerve. That's a major concern if invisible seals end up working out. This may be one of those technologies we want to quietly forget we ever thought of, at least until we're already running the world.
 
[-] Hazou Training: Continue from last plan
{-} Hazou Training: Continue from last plan

---

One major issue that bothers me is that a substantial chunk of Hazou's combat bonus (Roki) is severely underleveled. It is very much not likely that he will continue to get Roki bonuses without leveling up those skills. This leaves him quite a bit behind Noburi and Keiko in combat ability. To that end...

[X] Hazou Training: Seal-augmented Combat
{X} Hazou Training: Seal-augmented Combat

Intelligence 20 (40 xp)
Sealing 20 (20 xp)

Dex 11 (22 xp)
Taijutsu 28-29 (57 xp)

Presence 6 (12 xp)
Composure 6 (12 xp)
Manipulation 8 (16 xp)
Deception 15-16 (31 xp)
Roki 8-9 (17 xp)

Save: 0 xp

---

Notes:
  • Taijutsu is 32 Eff, with an additional chakra boost dice at 32.
  • +8 Roki +8 Chakra Boost = 48 dice max
  • +4 Roki Dice = 25 total, better chance at actually getting Roki
    • Still needs work; however, we can increase Roki bonus to 9 and get 30 Roki dice for 86 additional xp (3-4 weeks depending on how good plans are)
    • An additional thing to consider is to increase Hazou's capacity to allow him to boost more before recovery.
  • All this before incorporating Skywalkers and Macerators into Roki style

While 22 Sealing would be nice, working on seals close to Hazou's capacity simply is not something we should be doing at the moment. An additional sealing point should be sufficient to make Macerators safe to infuse en-masse, and then work on a couple variants after we are done training. In general, we can get higher returns in Sealing by lowering the TN requirements for new seals. We do this by first mastering simpler seals, and then branching out to others that work by the same principles.
 
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Cariyaga said:
Regarding sealing plans for the future, I think we should attempt to use it to shore up our weaknesses. Skywalkers will be great for movement in general, but tac move and stealth are both particular weaknesses of the team. The latter more than the former, to be sure, but if someone throws explosives at us we'll be pretty well screwed.

So maybe we should work on impulse seals, or suggest them to Kagome (both, really).

...on that note, we never did get around to asking Kagome what his sealing ideas were a while ago.

e: Other things we can shore up with sealing: Some sort of long distance chakra detector to augment awareness.
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I am thoroughly on board with this idea. We can very easily augment various combat skills with combinations of uncomplicated seals and gadgetry if we make that our focus.

If you think about it, this is precisely where we can shine and use our lateral thinking and outside approach for the greatest leverage.

This would have so much higher return on investment than relegating ourselves to standard combat while wasting time on worldbreaking seal ideas that we aren't strong enough to keep safe.

Seriously, it's not even funny. What kind of munchkins are we? This hivemind is undeserving of that title.
 
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Poor Kagome.

We should do something nice for him. Can anyone think of any novel uses of explosive seals? Maybe some very small tweaks for them? Or upgraded sealing research precautions?
 
eaglejarl said:
NB: Today really got away from me and this ended up both short and incomplete. I didn't get to the part where Keiko goes to the Pangolins to trade the skytower seal concept, so @Velorien will need to cover that. Keiko definitely did go—that part is locked in. I'll need to talk to the other QMs about how long she was there, though.
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Does this also include asking Pandaa about the Tapirs in Hidden Mountain?

Overall though, a very informative update despite its length; will go more into the implications later (there's just so many). Any feedback for us plan-makers about what you liked and didn't like about the plan? Based on the amount of XP given it seems like you considered it average overall, but then again the update itself isn't over yet, so the jury is still out on that.
 
Veedrac said:
I'm generally suspicious of a pantograph because from my understanding it sounds extremely finicky and prone to go wrong; at minimum you'd want an appropriately scaled brush as well. But it does seem plausible, at least, and that makes it worth trying.
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Why do we care about an appropriately scaled brush unless we're drawing really small seals?

I can understand why you think it'll go wrong. The brush isn't as neat as a pencil or pen. Maybe we can invent a better brush or pen?
 
Kiba said:
Why do we care about an appropriately scaled brush unless we're drawing really small seals?
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As I understand it, pantographs intrinsically affect the scale of a drawing. Brushes are by nature not stateless devices; how you've drawn your stroke previously affects shape, the momentum it has affects ink flow, and even how much ink is left on the brush as a result of previous motions all affect the output. These are unlikely to be preserved over scale without also scaling the brush.

There are also more minor effects like viscosity and a loss of ability to adjust for variations.
 
Veedrac said:
As I understand it, pantographs intrinsically affect the scale of a drawing. Brushes are by nature not stateless devices; how you've drawn your stroke previously affects shape, the momentum it has affects ink flow, and even how much ink is left on the brush as a result of previous motions all affect the output. These are unlikely to be preserved over scale without also scaling the brush.

There are also more minor effects like viscosity and a loss of ability to adjust for variations.
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Unless you mean something else entirely, pantographs do not affect the scale of the drawing unless you adjust it to do so. If you want no scaling, just adjust the pantograph and lock it in.
 
Kiba said:
Unless you mean something else entirely, pantographs do not affect the scale of the drawing unless you adjust it to do so. If you want no scaling, just adjust the pantograph and lock it in.
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Ah, OK. I think I can visualize this (poorly). But it seems to me you are forced to scale the Z-axis, no?

Also, how are you going to transfer tilt?
 
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Veedrac said:
Ah, OK. I think I can visualize this (poorly). But it seems to me you are forced to scale the Z-axis, no?

Also, how are you going to transfer tilt?
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If it's necessary, we'll use a second pantograph to synchronize the tilt and make the coupling looser but not too loose so that the brushes can tilt. At least that's how I imagine it to work.
 
eaglejarl said:
Mari-sensei's eyes lit up. "Ooooh, I bet I can—"

"You have to be the judge, sensei."

Weapons-grade puppy-dog eyes. "Awww." Sigh. "Fine, but then I get to make the challenges."

"Uh...okay?" That gleeful look on her face wasn't even remotely disturbing.

o-o-o-o​
"Aaaagggh! Killitkillitkillit!!!!" Off-balance series of hops into trees.

snap! snarl! firey woosh!

"Why aren't you killing it?!"

"Are you sure? I mean, you said—"

"Forget what I—yikes!—said, just kill it!"

"All right." thwock

Urk!

"That one didn't count! I would have had him fine if the stupid fruit hat hadn't fallen over my eyes!"

"Keep telling yourself that. Next!"

o-o-o-o​
Urk! Nigh-silent impact of massive furred body on forest loam.



Raised eyebrow. "I thought we were not going to use any seals in this round?"

"We were not going to activate any seals. I set that one up last night before proposing this contest."

"Hm."

o-o-o-o​
"That's it...that's it, one more step little monster horror thing. Come on, you're almost there, just— YAAAAGGGHHHHHH!!!! KILLITKILLITKILLITKILLIT!"

thwock!

Urk!

"Stupid fruit hat."

o-o-o-o​
"Yaa!"

thwock!

Urk!

"Okay, you're right. The fruit hat sucks."

"I know!"

o-o-o-o​
"But...."

"You...."

Facial expression that is absolutely not at all smug. "Yes."

"All of them?!"

"Yes."

"But...you only used one kunai."

"Yes."

"How...? I mean, I saw it but...how...?"

Her father would never forgive her if she allowed that flicker of inward glee to actually show on her face. Must...keep...control!
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Classic gag executed well. 8.8/10.
I am left with one question: what sort of fruit do they have access to?

eaglejarl said:
"Ninja hamlet," Noburi said, not looking up from where he was scooping barley-ish soup out of the dinner pot for seconds.
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Noburi remains observant.

eaglejarl said:
"So...what do you guys think about Mountain?" Hazō asked, carefully waiting until everyone was finished eating. "They're going to be opening up in a few months."

Mari-sensei frowned in puzzlement. "Opening up?"

"Yeah," Hazō said. "Remember what Takahashi said about us not coming back for a year?"

Mari-sensei shook her head. "He didn't want us coming back for a year so that he could consolidate power in the village without us messing things up. He didn't say anything about opening up to the world at the end of that time."

"But—"

An upraised hand cut him off. "Yes, when he gave me that bizarre ants metaphor he was talking about changing their society. That didn't say anything about interacting with the outside world, though." She paused, then nodded in thought. "Still, Yoshida wanted to open up and she and Takahashi were allies. They probably will at some point, but I don't know when—could be tomorrow for all we know."

"Oh." Hazō stopped to consider that. "Well, anyway, I've been thinking about them. Keiko, as the Pangolin summoner you've got a lot of political clout with them. They're an entire ninja village—"
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Innoue remains the stick with which the QMs poke the Hivemind's assumptions.

I'm unclear as to the timespan of this update. Was it a single day?
 
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Kiba said:
Since we presumably leveled Hazou's MechApt, I propose a simple project: the pantograph, an often-discussed project.
  • Why nobody came up with the idea.
    • Most sealmasters lack mechanical or geometrical inclination
    • Sealmasters' tool for inventing new things are mostly sealing.
    • The invention was non-obvious. The printing press was invented in 1440, but the pantograph was invented in 1603.
  • Source of inspiration:
    • Hazou wishing he has an extra set of an arms so he can draw more seals at the same time.
    • Hazou knowing that a machine existed in Konoha that printed books. He imagines it to be a series of arms.
    • Hazou learning from books about the concept of 'translating' a shape, and then hitting on the idea of keeping brushes at the same distance from each other.
    • Hazou noting that the arms bend when he draw.
  • Design:
    • Pantograph design in theory could be constructed IRL.
    • The coupling is a bit loose to allow for tilting.
    • A second pantograph must be incorporated to allow for tilting.
    • The pantograph do not need to scale the drawing smaller or larger, just that it duplicate the drawing.
    • The pantograph will not be adjustable. Less way to go wrong.
  • Impact:
    • Will allow sealing workshops to be more productive, maybe even end the notion of a sealing workshop.
    • Allow our team to be more lethal since they can produce any number of seals faster.
    • Another thing to sell to Jiraiya.
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Made adjustment to the pantograph idea, including two new sections for design and impact.
 
MadScientist said:
Poor Kagome.

We should do something nice for him. Can anyone think of any novel uses of explosive seals? Maybe some very small tweaks for them? Or upgraded sealing research precautions?
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Just had a thought regarding Kagome if we go with Leaf:
Try to get him a doom fortress outside of the village itself. A facility of his design with 5 seal barrier reinforced walls and all the explosives he can create, with secure seal development and testing labs. That might be just enough to keep him sane.

Relatedly, there has been discussion of seal based guns. Has there been much discussion of seal based heavy artillery? Particularly, something that could deliver a cluster bomb (or a cluster bomb of cluster bombs) a few km?
 
Vecht said:
[-] Hazou Training: Continue from last plan
{-} Hazou Training: Continue from last plan

---

One major issue that bothers me is that a substantial chunk of Hazou's combat bonus (Roki) is severely underleveled. It is very much not likely that he will continue to get Roki bonuses without leveling up those skills. This leaves him quite a bit behind Noburi and Keiko in combat ability. To that end...

[X] Hazou Training: Seal-augmented Combat
{X} Hazou Training: Seal-augmented Combat

Intelligence 20 (40 xp)
Sealing 20 (20 xp)

Dex 11 (22 xp)
Taijutsu 28-29 (57 xp)

Presence 6 (12 xp)
Composure 6 (12 xp)
Manipulation 8 (16 xp)
Deception 15-16 (31 xp)
Roki 8-9 (17 xp)

Save: 0 xp

---

Notes:
  • Taijutsu is 32 Eff, with an additional chakra boost dice at 32.
  • +8 Roki +8 Chakra Boost = 48 dice max
  • +4 Roki Dice = 25 total, better chance at actually getting Roki
    • Still needs work; however, we can increase Roki bonus to 9 and get 30 Roki dice for 86 additional xp (3-4 weeks depending on how good plans are)
    • An additional thing to consider is to increase Hazou's capacity to allow him to boost more before recovery.
  • All this before incorporating Skywalkers and Macerators into Roki style
While 22 Sealing would be nice, working on seals close to Hazou's capacity simply is not something we should be doing at the moment. An additional sealing point should be sufficient to make Macerators safe to infuse en-masse, and then work on a couple variants after we are done training. In general, we can get higher returns in Sealing by lowering the TN requirements for new seals. We do this by first mastering simpler seals, and then branching out to others that work by the same principles.
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The pantograph project is likely to warrant MechApt expertise, and we're not leveling any. However, I am unsure if the investment in the pantograph will pay off in term of increased lethality. Forty percent of the team consists of sealmasters, after all.

If we perfect the pantograph, we could make twice the seals in the same time, or spend half of the time making the same amount of seals. It will also let Kagome-sensei write invisible ink seals.
 
Kiba said:
The pantograph project is likely to warrant MechApt expertise, and we're not leveling any. However, I am unsure if the investment in the pantograph will pay off in term of increased lethality. Forty percent of the team consists of sealmasters, after all.

If we perfect the pantograph, we could make twice the seals in the same time, or spend half of the time making the same amount of seals. It will also let Kagome-sensei write invisible ink seals.
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FWIW I do think this is a clever idea, and I don't disagree. Except that it doesn't seem like time spent drawing seals is a bottleneck atm.

Regardless, if we need a few points in MechApt, it is cheap enough. But why not run the idea by Kagome first? Even if Hazou can't do it right now, he could draw up blueprints or make a prototype. If Kagome agrees it's worth looking into, we can make the investment.

---

To be clear, I am totally on board with leveling MechApt, for the munchkinry potential with gadgets and combinations with sealing. I just am hesitant to do so unless we can convince a decent sized bloc of the hivemind that this is a good idea, and get them on board for the long haul. This should be a long term investment with continual upkeep, like Sealing. Not yet another skill to drop points in.

I'm actually knocking around ideas for putting out a few long term build goals for Hazou. Also maybe writing some omake to more viscerally demonstrate my ideas and their potential.

A combination of MechApt+Sealing with lots of (uncomplicated, simple) gadets and seals can help us shore up other stats (like Awareness/Stealth/TacMov), boost our combat potential, and also help our team in those areas. Then we keep Taijutsu/Roki up to par, as well as chakra capacity/regen for boosting. If we ever get a Summoning scroll for Hazou, we can put points there as well, and cheaply too since he has a ton of Int from Sealing.

But that's pretty much it. I think with clever SealTech applications we can have Hazou & Co standing firmly at Chuunin level in a few months, tops.

We're already within striking range of having low-Chuunin combat numbers.
 
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Vecht said:
FWIW I do think this is a clever idea, and I don't disagree. Except that it doesn't seem like time spent drawing seals is a bottleneck atm.

Regardless, if we need a few points in MechApt, it is cheap enough. But why not run the idea by Kagome first? Even if Hazou can't do it right now, he could draw up blueprints or make a prototype. If Kagome agrees it's worth looking into, we can make the investment.
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What do you believe our bottleneck to be, then? Papers? Or infusion? It seems seal infusion takes less time than drawing a seal. Papers we have plenty of.

Of course, development of new seals by far takes the most time. It always will.

If you're thinking we need more paper, we could develop a process with the macerator.
 
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For stealth we have the banshee slayers to start with. I really like @MadScientist idea to start modifying them to negate other waves specially light. I mean try to locate someone when you can't see or hear and they are maneuvering in 3D.

For boosting tacmove don't see any obvious ways to increase that. Though decreasing our enemies buy developing time delayed goo bombs would probably help. Or if we could modify them to detect when an entity with above average chakra enters there range.

Chakra sensor is as always my pet project casino seals
 
Oneiros43 said:
For boosting tacmove don't see any obvious ways to increase that. Though decreasing our enemies buy developing time delayed goo bombs would probably help. Or if we could modify them to detect when an entity with above average chakra enters there range.
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Skywalkers count, but it's something we rather not use in battle. Jumping boots could be made with impulse seals. They'll work like IRL jumping boots, allowing us to run faster, assuming we fine tuned it well.

Oneiros43 said:
Chakra sensor is as always my pet project casino seals
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Gut instinct is that "long range" chakra detection is harder than we thought.
 
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