Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
We could work on a mirror seal as a method that'd lead to that.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
-
- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
Pictograms is news to me, but welcome news. If regular storage seals have an outward display when they're full, it should be simple to modify the seal to, when full, project some quality that another seal can detect, if that's not already the case.
Another thought about 1) reminds me that you can get exponential growth of 'affecting seals' with LBF by having each seal trigger a storage seal to trigger another LBF's two seals to trigger two storage seals, and so on and so forth. It's likely that's a highly inefficient way of doing it, but if we can replicate the effect in a more controlled way, such as having one seal heat up a piece of wire connected to two or more seals that detect heat, or something even more abstract but potentially simpler from a sealmaster's perspective like some pulse of chakra that nearby seals can detect. Getting it to only trigger one seal at a time would be the tricky part, though.
Another thought about 1) reminds me that you can get exponential growth of 'affecting seals' with LBF by having each seal trigger a storage seal to trigger another LBF's two seals to trigger two storage seals, and so on and so forth. It's likely that's a highly inefficient way of doing it, but if we can replicate the effect in a more controlled way, such as having one seal heat up a piece of wire connected to two or more seals that detect heat, or something even more abstract but potentially simpler from a sealmaster's perspective like some pulse of chakra that nearby seals can detect. Getting it to only trigger one seal at a time would be the tricky part, though.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Oh, by the way, what did you guys think of Beacon Seal for a TH'd Vacuum Step as a method to approximate Hiraishin? (and boy isn't that an out-of-context statement)
Look. I'm just saying that there's a clear difference between a full and empty storage seal that shouldn't be hard to distinguish. You don't need image recognition at all. Just have something that checks whether the storage seal has added an image to itself, it doesn't need to recognise what the picture is of.
Vecht
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- Snarksville, Snarkland
You could maybe approximate something useful here by getting a light-sensitive trigger seal, isolating it from the outside environment, using a weak internal light source behind the target scroll, and calibrating it to a threshold that is crossed when the image appears. Still, not trivial.
Last edited:
You don't need to do any of that.
You can make seals do things without needing to know how they're doing it, and small simple tasks are easy (relatively speaking) to invent.
You think the sealmaster who made the casino seals had a working theory of the physical properties of chakra that they were measuring? No. They said "Let's invent a seal that detects whether chakra is being molded nearby.". And then they did.
We can do the same thing. We can just say "Let's invent a seal that checks whether a storage seal it's connected to is empty.". And then do it.
It won't be trivial, because no seal research is trivial. But it will be trivial for seal research.
Vecht
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- Snarksville, Snarkland
Yeah, I dunno. This sounds much easier to me, because there are numerous things that are sensitive to chakra. You could almost imagine chakra pulses emanating like waves, and then you just need something that can metaphorically bob up and down in response. That doesn't require any understanding at all. It just requires you to find something that has the property of bobbing, and reverse engineer it in seal form.
Not saying that's how it works. But it is plausible, and it isn't clear to me that we can just invent seals ex nihilo. This is corroborated at least in part by QMs telling us that seals related to ones we've already mastered will be much easier to research.
Edit: Also, a even a middlingly-complicated physical contraption seems way safer, easier, and more assured than doing sealing research in an unknown direction.
Last edited:
Possibly, but the point is that you don't need one. And a complicated mechanism would probably make things harder than if you'd just let the seal go the way it wants.
We know this because the QMs have told us that Usumatsu had no idea how his purifier works, because he had no idea about the composition of air. He just decided to make a seal that took in poisoned air, and expelled gas that didn't kill the animals it was exposed to.
Vecht
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- Snarksville, Snarkland
@MadScientist Also, if you're going to argue that you can just create seals ex nihilo to do what you want, I don't know why you're bothering with arguing for arrays of storage seals triggered by complex mechanisms. Why not just skip to the part of developing storage seals to do the thing you want?
Because it's easier to invent simple seals that interact with known seals to add functionality onto them than to invent complicated seals (as Kagome has indicated multiple-storage seals would be).
Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
- Location
- Left of Center
Vecht
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- Snarksville, Snarkland
Eh, not too worried about getting it threadmarked. It is mostly an inside joke for regulars in this thread.
Still, good idea. Will keep in mind if I can ever be arsed to write more omake.
Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
- Location
- Left of Center
Eh, not too worried about getting it threadmarked. It is mostly an inside joke for regulars in this thread.
Still, good idea. Will keep in mind if I can ever be arsed to write more omake.
Thing is it's a good Omake, especially given the context. I'd hate for the people who just read threadmarks to miss out on good content.
- Location
- Off the Edge
I think the biggest drive to developing a metric system would be that it would make communication frustrating otherwise.
"Alright, so here's my idea for a skyship. We should start by designing the base first--"
"How big should it be?"
"How big? Uh, big enough to hold a person, I guess?"
"But how big is that? How big of a person?
"Okay, how about this: we'll make it about, say, 3 arm lengths by 4 arm lengths. That should probably be enough to fit any person."
"Whose arm?"
"Mine, maybe?"
"But what if you're not around?"
"Fine. Look, we'll take this long stick, and notch it in these places..."
"How big should it be?"
"How big? Uh, big enough to hold a person, I guess?"
"But how big is that? How big of a person?
"Okay, how about this: we'll make it about, say, 3 arm lengths by 4 arm lengths. That should probably be enough to fit any person."
"Whose arm?"
"Mine, maybe?"
"But what if you're not around?"
"Fine. Look, we'll take this long stick, and notch it in these places..."
It would also be good to do things right the first time around, and base our system on constants. Like, some fraction of the circumference of the world. Speaking of which, do things disappear below a horizon line in the setting?
I've no doubt that the EN uses some sort of measurement system, but is it standardized?
I don't see why we should base our measurement of distance on the circumstance of the world, when a storage seal is good enough.
Vecht
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- Snarksville, Snarkland
I like the idea of storage scrolls to standardize length. Once you have length, you can get mass by considering some volume of water at atmospheric pressure and some constant temperature (though might be difficult to get that truly constant).
Is there a minimum chakra necessary to apply a henge (or some other basic skill)?
If so, apply exactly that much chakra constantly as force until you have moved exactly one unit of mass one unit of distance. This now gives you units of force, impulse, and time.
Is there a minimum chakra necessary to apply a henge (or some other basic skill)?
If so, apply exactly that much chakra constantly as force until you have moved exactly one unit of mass one unit of distance. This now gives you units of force, impulse, and time.
Last edited:
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
I feel like I should mention one of the most important opportunities inherent in making our own metric system: we get to name everything.
Length measured in Hazous, velocity measured in Keikos, mass in Noburis, force in Akanes, the list goes on!
If we earthlings got used to Newtons and Watts easily enough, the Elemental Nations will barely mind a few centuries down the line that we slapped our names on everything we could.
Length measured in Hazous, velocity measured in Keikos, mass in Noburis, force in Akanes, the list goes on!
If we earthlings got used to Newtons and Watts easily enough, the Elemental Nations will barely mind a few centuries down the line that we slapped our names on everything we could.
Vecht
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- Snarksville, Snarkland
I hate that practice. But what's the alternative?
"It's about 5 storagelengthwatercubes, so yeah, approximately 12 hengechakraforce storagelengths should do the trick."
I am not sure if I am willing to deal with eccentric naming conventions, however justified.
Vecht
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- Snarksville, Snarkland
Also; ftfy.
This is something that I completely disagree with but it seems to be taken (somewhat) for granted. Since seal hacking is one of the major joys of the quest for many participants it seemed a bit churlish to poke holes in it needlessly, but given the QMs request for the playerbase to cooperate in making a less breakable setting it maybe makes sense to bring up my view.
Basically, In real life, sometimes you just can't get X no matter how hard you research. Sometimes it's impossible but you don't know that (e.g. the many geniuses who spent years trying to prove Euclid's 5th Postulate), and sometimes it's possible but difficult enough that being a genius in the field still doesn't mean that you'll be able to crack it even after a lifetime of effort (e.g. all those mathematicians who didn't prove Fermat's last theorem). In many many cases, you have no way of knowing if it's one of these above situations, or if it's something you can get if you work just a little longer or something you could get if you were just a little bit better.
This is especially true for research in whole new forms of seals or seal effects (e.g. Image recognition seal, time slowing seal, etc.) but also for seemingly easy extensions of seals (increased volume storage seals, one-seal barrier, etc.), most notably extensions that are just pure improvements.
Last edited:
IIRC, Kagome-sensei didn't object to the idea of bigger storage seal. It's something we probably can research.
As for the rest of the idea: the image recognition seal is a very complicated seal. We'll probably have to invent a computer first before actually doing more research. It'll be beyond Hazou's lifetime.
Time slowing seal: We have no idea where to start. It's a completely new effect which requires greater sealing expertise than we have, and possibly great danger.
Meanwhile, all the original seals we researched are a result of our lateral thinking. We turned storage seal's stress antifeature into a feature, figured out skytowers with a good application of 5SB, and figured out how to use air domes to walk in the sky.
Now the hivemind figured out a simple way to standardize measurement of length, if not mass using storage seal.
Chapter 106: In Which Our Heroes Murder Woodland Creatures For Fun
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
"Hey guys," Hazō said. "I feel like I've been in a bit of a rut lately. How about tomorrow we have a little friendly competition to spice up training?"
Keiko looked over in interest. "What did you have in mind?"
"I'm thinking hunting. There's plenty of chakra monsters around here. We'll take turns killing or incapacitating them in specified ways to test our mastery of various skills. Killing without making a sound is for stealth, killing as many as possible within a minute is mass combat, killing one member of a pack without the others noticing is stealth and situational awareness, that kind of thing." He grinned. "And we could get a little silly too, just for fun. Use only one hand or one leg, that kind of thing."
Mari-sensei's eyes lit up. "Ooooh, I bet I can—"
"You have to be the judge, sensei."
Weapons-grade puppy-dog eyes. "Awww." Sigh. "Fine, but then I get to make the challenges."
"Uh...okay?" That gleeful look on her face wasn't even remotely disturbing.
o-o-o-o
"Aaaagggh! Killitkillitkillit!!!!" Off-balance series of hops into trees.
snap! snarl! firey woosh!
"Why aren't you killing it?!"
"Are you sure? I mean, you said—"
"Forget what I—yikes!—said, just kill it!"
"All right." thwock
Urk!
"That one didn't count! I would have had him fine if the stupid fruit hat hadn't fallen over my eyes!"
"Keep telling yourself that. Next!"
o-o-o-o
Urk! Nigh-silent impact of massive furred body on forest loam.
Raised eyebrow. "I thought we were not going to use any seals in this round?"
"We were not going to activate any seals. I set that one up last night before proposing this contest."
"Hm."
o-o-o-o
"That's it...that's it, one more step little monster horror thing. Come on, you're almost there, just— YAAAAGGGHHHHHH!!!! KILLITKILLITKILLITKILLIT!"
thwock!
Urk!
"Stupid fruit hat."
o-o-o-o
"Yaa!"
thwock!
Urk!
"Okay, you're right. The fruit hat sucks."
"I know!"
o-o-o-o
"But...."
"You...."
Facial expression that is absolutely not at all smug. "Yes."
"All of them?!"
"Yes."
"But...you only used one kunai."
"Yes."
"How...? I mean, I saw it but...how...?"
Her father would never forgive her if she allowed that flicker of inward glee to actually show on her face. Must...keep...control!
o-o-o-o
The games continued until both boys grudgingly admitted that Keiko was the winner.
"Seriously, Keiko?" Hazō grumbled while he pulled a clean set of clothes out of his scroll as preface to a much-needed bath. (Mari-sensei lesson #217(a): 'Remember, kids: your enemies have noses! Stinky ninja are dead ninja!') "How the hell do you hit something that size between the eyes when you're only allowed to use one eye yourself?"
"Slightly left of center."
Luckily for Keiko, Hazō still had not mastered the Kill You With My Brain no Jutsu.
o-o-o-o
"So...what do you guys think about Isan?" Hazō asked, carefully waiting until everyone was finished eating. "They're going to be opening up in a few months."
Mari-sensei frowned in puzzlement. "Opening up?"
"Yeah," Hazō said. "Remember what Takahashi said about us not coming back for a year?"
Mari-sensei shook her head. "He didn't want us coming back for a year so that he could consolidate power in the village without us messing things up. He didn't say anything about opening up to the world at the end of that time."
"But—"
An upraised hand cut him off. "Yes, when he gave me that bizarre ants metaphor he was talking about changing their society. That didn't say anything about interacting with the outside world, though." She paused, then nodded in thought. "Still, Yoshida wanted to open up and she and Takahashi were allies. They probably will at some point, but I don't know when—could be tomorrow for all we know."
"Oh." Hazō stopped to consider that. "Well, anyway, I've been thinking about them. Keiko, as the Pangolin summoner you've got a lot of political clout with them. They're an entire ninja village—"
"Ninja hamlet," Noburi said, not looking up from where he was scooping barley-ish soup out of the dinner pot for seconds.
"—ninja village with no ties to the outside and almost no one is aware of them yet. They could make a good powerbase for us, or a good hidey hole."
"Jiraiya-stinker knows about 'em," Kagome said, glowering at the piece of wood that was rapidly forming into a delicate sea creature under the careful ministrations of his carving knife. "He'll move in at some point."
"Right," Hazō said. "So if we got there first, we could be the interface, guide how the interaction went. There'd be some issues to plan for, though. Noburi, you'd see Yuno again. How would you feel about that?"
Noburi grimaced. "It's complicated? I've thought about her a few times. I was never in love with her, and sometimes she freaked me out a little but...I really liked her. She was honest, and straightforward, and a good person. Fake-dating her was incredibly uncomfortable and embarrassing, but it was also really nice. She deserved better than what happened—with me and with the village in general."
"Were you to see her again the interactions could be complicated," Keiko said. "She was unpredictable at the best of times. Do you think she would attack you?"
"No!" Noburi said. "No, she wouldn't do that."
"Would you want to see her again?" Hazō asked carefully.
Noburi studied his soup with the same intensity with which a seer studies a crystal ball. "I wouldn't want us to go there just for me," he said finally. "I think that yes, I would like to see her again, but I'm not willing to put the team at risk."
Hazō looked across the flickering campfire to his teachers. "Mari-sensei, Kagome-sensei, what do you think?"
"Stinkers tried to kill us before," Kagome grumbled. "You want to go back? Are you crazy?"
Mari-sensei waffled her hand side-to-side. "I can see some advantages, but a lot of risks," she said. "We really threw an explosive tag in their politics, and we don't know where the pieces landed. The Inoue and the Aida were the ones who attacked us—loremasters and religious leaders, so hardly surprising they were the xenophobic ones. Their political star was on the wane after we left and by now Takahashi probably put a muzzle on them, but there's no way to know for sure. Just as one example, they might have managed to come out even stronger than before if they whipped up some populist fervor around the idea that their teachings had been shown to be true and obviously the foreigners would be coming to take away the lives of decent hardworking Isan-folk everywhere."
"Would we be safe if we went back?" Hazō asked.
Kagome-sensei snorted. "Safe? Safe?! Don't talk to me about safe. All those stupid rules you guys gave me... 'No setting off landslides to destroy the entire village so we can pick through the rubble at our leisure, Kagome.' 'No putting explosives on the houses, Kagome.' 'No putting explosives on the tapir pens, Kagome.' 'No putting explosives on the tapirs, Kagome.' 'No putting explosives on anything more than one hundred feet from the cave, Kagome.' 'No putting lethal traps in the outer perimeter, Kagome.'" He spat to one side. "Stupid rules. Don't talk to me about safe." He pointed his knife at Hazō like a lance. "I know how this goes. You're going to talk about how great it would be if we went back and used Isan as a power base to uplift the world and make everything better for everyone so we can squish all those Headquarters stinkers and then dance on their exploded corpses. It'll sound crazy and then you'll talk some more and maybe it won't seem completely crazy, and then you'll talk some more and everyone will decide that they're crazy too so they'll go along with it. Well, don't come crying to me when it all goes horribly, horribly wrong. And I'll tell you what, this time I'm going to put explosives wherever I feel like it! Got that?!"
What did you even say to that? "Yes, sensei?"
"Good." The grumpy sealmaster bent over his carving once more, angrily brushing a strand of his thinning hair out of the way as he focused on the wooden dolphin leaping out of the wooden ocean in his hand.
o-o-o-o
XP AWARD: 6
Vote time! What to do now?
Voting ends on Wednesday, March 1, 2017, at 12pm London time.
NB: Today really got away from me and this ended up both short and incomplete. I didn't get to the part where Keiko goes to the Pangolins to trade the skytower seal concept, so @Velorien will need to cover that. Keiko definitely did go—that part is locked in. I'll need to talk to the other QMs about how long she was there, though.
Last edited: