This is more how I feel.

But of the "make substrate acquisition an immediate priority" I would rather spend TH notes and hack ES than level BOC.
I agree this would be better, but I'm concerned about viability. Even with TH 40 and rolling at 46 from the ES boost, unless the complexity of Tweaks is super low the maximum TH TN that we can realistically do is 37; if we fail on a -9 swing we'll fail one in seven rolls, and because FP rerolls don't reroll the TN's roll we can't rely on them nearly as much as we would in Sealing. (It might well be the case that Tweaks have way lower complexity than making techniques from scratch, granted, in which case we could probably deal with failing on a -9; but we can't assume that.)

The problem is, if we commit to levelling TH and hacking ES and then it turns out that even TH 40 isn't enough to do that, we're kind of screwed without multiple unstagnations along the way. TH 40 from TH 10 is 1530 XP; we don't have to actually pay for most of that because of notes, but even if we manage to unstagnate our upcoming sealing barrier in the near future we'd be running into two combat barriers and another sealing one. We might not be able to level BoC quickly afterwards, if it turned out not to work.

Correspondingly, BoC 1 -> 30 is only 232 XP. It's less XP-efficient than levelling TH and tweaking ES, but it's faster, doesn't plunge us into stagnancy, and most importantly is guaranteed to work. I don't love the idea of essentially wasting a couple of hundred XP, but I like the idea of getting stuck unable to make substrate even less.

Yeah, never underestimate the degree to which knowing a thing has been done makes it easier to do. That's a universal truth that applies to real life, not story specific.
While I agree with the general point, I don't think it really applies here? Akatsuki already knows it's possible, because the Great Seal exists; and given that having a perfect image of the Great Seal stored in the Iron Nerve was only barely ruled enough material to unlock PS, I don't think knowing that we managed to do it would let them figure it out.
 
It's like one FP, a resource we get a refresher on. We don't plan on doing any unique research that requires a bunch of it for the next update, so like... let's just not be cheap lol.

Easy dub, we don't often get the opportunity to unfuck problems like this, take it and run.
Seconding this take.

I would personally prefer buying some CR and spending the TH notes now. (Though I'm in no rush to get more substrate atm and am a little surprised it's suddenly become a big issue of discussion...)

But of the "make substrate acquisition an immediate priority" I would rather spend TH notes and hack ES than level BOC.

Agreed. THing 30/40, random projects for veterancy, then ES Tweak.


This seems common-sensical, so I'm surprised it's not the SOP already. Maybe we should vote that in?

Agreed. I would support such a thing.
 
I agree this would be better, but I'm concerned about viability. Even with TH 40 and rolling at 46 from the ES boost, unless the complexity of Tweaks is super low the maximum TH TN that we can realistically do is 37; if we fail on a -9 swing we'll fail one in seven rolls, and because FP rerolls don't reroll the TN's roll we can't rely on them nearly as much as we would in Sealing. (It might well be the case that Tweaks have way lower complexity than making techniques from scratch, granted, in which case we could probably deal with failing on a -9; but we can't assume that.)
Failing a couple rolls while THing is not that big a deal IMO
 
One concern that I have with tweaking ES is that losing any Range or Speed relative to the default technique makes hotfixes to thr Great Seal correspondingly more difficult. BoC is custom designed to do the task of producing enough substrate for research purposes. We should just use the thing that solves the problem.
 
One concern that I have with tweaking ES is that losing any Range or Speed relative to the default technique makes hotfixes to thr Great Seal correspondingly more difficult. BoC is custom designed to do the task of producing enough substrate for research purposes. We should just use the thing that solves the problem.
We should be able to keep all that. Tweaking makes an Alternate Statblock that you can use, optionally. It doesn't screw up the OG jutsu.

The Tweak that we'd be making, first, would be one that would allow us to make Runecrafting substrate. We wouldn't need to use that alternate statblock when investigating the Great Seal.
 
This is more how I feel.

But of the "make substrate acquisition an immediate priority" I would rather spend TH notes and hack ES than level BOC.
So, question. If we do pursue the TH route to get more substrate, putting our XP into TH and all that, and it fails... how bad is that for us?

Because, like, I don't feel like this is a sure thing. My gut impression is that it's more likely to fail than succeed. It's got that characteristic "surely this research project will be easy" feeling to it, and even though we know the project is possible that doesn't mean we'll have a high enough level for it right here and now.

Our XP is at much less of a premium now that PS has hit softcap, and we want to grind TH sooner or later anyways, so I don't mind in general the idea of pushing TH and taking that risk, but if we wouldn't then have enough leftover to level BoC in time (should it be necessary) then I have serious reservations about this route.
 
So, question. If we do pursue the TH route to get more substrate, putting our XP into TH and all that, and it fails... how bad is that for us?

Because, like, I don't feel like this is a sure thing. My gut impression is that it's more likely to fail than succeed. It's got that characteristic "surely this research project will be easy" feeling to it, and even though we know the project is possible that doesn't mean we'll have a high enough level for it right here and now.

Our XP is at much less of a premium now that PS has hit softcap, and we want to grind TH sooner or later anyways, so I don't mind in general the idea of pushing TH and taking that risk, but if we wouldn't then have enough leftover to level BoC in time (should it be necessary) then I have serious reservations about this route.
If we steal the rift on our own, then we're not going to be suddenly surprised by the need for substrate, so we would pivot to the next means of producing substrate if the first plan failed.

If we need to help Leaf attack the rift and therefore don't have much time, we could get more from Oro.

There's also Oneiros' suggestion of getting more from the Honey Cave, which we are fairly close to atm.
 
Because, like, I don't feel like this is a sure thing. My gut impression is that it's more likely to fail than succeed. It's got that characteristic "surely this research project will be easy" feeling to it, and even though we know the project is possible that doesn't mean we'll have a high enough level for it right here and now.
We're gunning for TH 40 for Minatosealing, anyway. And no one's saying it's an easy project, on its own. With veterancy, and taking some strong Disadvantages (such as a -AB or -2AB to Alertness while casting), it should be possible... especially since Hazou has something that Haruhisa lacked: Runecrafting 60s to represent knowing just what the substrate should look like, and what the difference between viable and nonviable substrate looks like.

Imo, since we're getting a high TH anyway, it makes sense to go the "Tweak Earthshaping route" before we dump XP in BoC.
 
While I agree with the general point, I don't think it really applies here? Akatsuki already knows it's possible, because the Great Seal exists; and given that having a perfect image of the Great Seal stored in the Iron Nerve was only barely ruled enough material to unlock PS, I don't think knowing that we managed to do it would let them figure it out.
Believing it was done at the kitchen table scale by some precocious kid would be an even greater acceleration than knowing it could be done as an unreplicable megaproject by a deity.

(There is an unstated counterargument of 'but if that were true ninja would have approximately homogeneous skillsets like fighters do in the real world', and I concede that point, but I also don't know what to do with it.)
 
Like what? Utility is going to matter here.
Banshee Fuckers - Kagome is already working on them but he's not too far in. I still don't see much point.

Army of One - I wouldn't mind, but with how little we know about its mechanical effects, it's hard to argue in favor of it over a rune. Still, in more optimistic scenarios it could help keep Hazou safe even while operating runes or while fighting, especially if it stacks with Roki.

A different Jiraiya-horde seal - Lightning rod could be good. I think Fire Eaters are likely a bit hard atm and tougher to deploy so we would likely end up wanting to modify the fire eaters afterwards.

Rune-interacting seals - I don't have any specific ideas. Maybe a seal that can power down a rune over time or something?
 
different Jiraiya-horde seal - Lightning rod could be good. I think Fire Eaters are likely a bit hard atm and tougher to deploy so we would likely end up wanting to modify the fire eaters afterwards
Lightning Rod has some utility with Storm Runes. Many such seals could allow us to operate in the AoE while denying it to others. Perhaps useful for stealing the Rift
 
Why are we overcomplicating this? We should just scale RERs for our unstagnation. Add the Landmine capability, and scale up the destructiveness and range until the rune becomes challenging enough.

Seals seem like a waste of time, unless intended to fill some very specific niche. We shouldn't waste the research time we could spend on runes on them. (Even non-DoB tracks could presumably be filled with some useful Trivial/Easy runes instead.)
 
Last edited:
Why are we overcomplicating this? We should just scale RERs for our unstagnation. Add the Landmine capability, and scale up the destructiveness and range until the rune becomes challenging enough.

Seals seem like a waste of time, unless intended to fill some very specific niche. We shouldn't waste the research time we could spend on runes on them. (Even non-DoB tracks could presumably be filled with some useful Trivial/Easy runes instead.)
Based, I'm going to edit my plan to reflect this, unless there are objections.

EDIT: We don't have the chakra to run more than 2 rune tracks simultaneously. Which is why we haven't been doing it
 
Last edited:
Remote Explosive 2.0

Rune

A scaled up remote runic explosive.

The Remote Explosive is scaled up until the TN will provide an unstagnation project for Hazou.
 
Last edited:
Uhhhhh I don't hate it but would prefer to research challenging runes.
Based, I'm going to edit my plan to reflect this, unless there are objections.

EDIT: We don't have the chakra to run more than 2 rune tracks simultaneously. Which is why we haven't been doing it
I was under the impression for some reason that we weren't doing runic research unstagnation projects because we didn't have viable candidates for a research project that would unstagnate us without causing a runic failure, but if we can just do this that's great.
 
While I agree with the general point, I don't think it really applies here? Akatsuki already knows it's possible, because the Great Seal exists;
That just proves it was possible for the Sage of Six Paths, a thousand years ago, possibly with the support of any number of now-lost cosmic macguffins. The idea it's something people with otherwise unremarkable resources can do today, in conveniently scaled-down forms, might still be a surprise.
 
I was under the impression for some reason that we weren't doing runic research unstagnation projects because we didn't have viable candidates for a research project that would unstagnate us without causing a runic failure, but if we can just do this that's great.
With the new diff check system I think 'pilot is good enough at judging these things that I'm not overly concerned with our Invoke+reroll policy
 
Back
Top