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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Question for people about the movement rules (not related to surrounding discussion): when you make an Athletics check to determine the number of Zones you can sprint, is a number of shifts calculated from the SDC and then that's added to the total, or is the scaled-down check result added directly to the number of shifts?
  • To make that clearer: if I have Athletics 40, then to Sprint I make a SDC against TN 0. I get (40 + 6 - 0)/10 = 4 (rounding down). Does that give me three shifts of movement (2 shifts from the 4 on the SDC, plus 1 base) or five (4 shifts from the SDC, plus 1 base)?
    • If the latter; can a ninja with Ath 70 really run 8*30 = 240 metres in three seconds without spending any chakra? (Not that 120 metres in four seconds is much more reasonable, but it seems slightly less insane.)
 
Oneiros said:
I hope I'm just missing something obvious but why are we trying to steal the rift when we don't have anything close to being able to secure it yet?
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Rift-stealers will take a chain of 2-4 runes to make, so we need to get an early start if we want them at all.


Also, there is the "Yoink" plan.
A Superheater rune is trivial to make, and if we don't make contact with Leaf, there's no-one to know that the resulting destruction was a superweapon, rather than Sasori having a dramatic sealing failure while working on the toughest graphosealing project of his career.
(even if people do suspect a superweapon, the suspects are "whoever killed Isan", or "The Watchers", or maaaaaaybe "Hazou", but not Leaf).

The "Yoink" plan is to WMD the rift site, steal the rift scar, remain missing-nin(for a bit longer, at least), and explore the Pure Lands at our leisure.
If we pull it off, it has the advantages of preserving Uplift's agency instead of turning everything over to Naruto/Orochimaru, and avoiding triggering the world war between Leaf and AMITY that would otherwise ensue. It's generally a much cleaner win, with a much shorter list of required runes.

The catch is that a chain of rift runes takes time, and we might not finish before Naruto runs out of time and attacks the rift.
Popular consensus seems to be to research rift runes on one track, and continue researching "Leaf vs Akatsuki/AMITY" runes on the other.
 
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Oneiros said:
I hope I'm just missing something obvious but why are we trying to steal the rift when we don't have anything close to being able to secure it yet?
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It takes a whole chain of runes that build veterancy, so it makes sense to put one track on it and one track on weapons/defenses. I don't necessarily agree about starting right now, I think we want to finish Ninja Radar first, but soonish.
Kyreneryk said:
I'd actually forgotten about the fact that Cannai is constantly contesting the Leopard boss for control of his territory. That seems like a problem. I mean, maybe he can still do that if we summon him, but you're right, even a few minutes away might result in serious losses there.

@Sir Stompy, your thoughts?
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This is explicitly addressed in my plan already. Perhaps it warrants clarification if multiple people are confused
Kyreneryk said:
Question for people about the movement rules (not related to surrounding discussion): when you make an Athletics check to determine the number of Zones you can sprint, is a number of shifts calculated from the SDC and then that's added to the total, or is the scaled-down check result added directly to the number of shifts?
  • To make that clearer: if I have Athletics 40, then to Sprint I make a SDC against TN 0. I get (40 + 6 - 0)/10 = 4 (rounding down). Does that give me three shifts of movement (2 shifts from the 4 on the SDC, plus 1 base) or five(4 shifts from the SDC, plus 1 base)?
    • If the latter; can a ninja with Ath 70 really run 8*30 = 240 metres in three seconds without spending any chakra? (Not that 120 metres in four seconds is much more reasonable, but it seems slightly less insane.)
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SDC rounded down generates shifts as roll result/10 rounded down. So for the roll you have you'd end up with a 46/10 for 4 total shifts of movement. I'm actually confused as to where you're going after you get that....

EDIT: I should have checked the rules doc first, you get 1 + 4 = 5 shifts of movement. Since the result of the SDC is added to 1 to get the total movement shifts.

Yes, Ath 70 ninja can run at 80 m/s (180 mph) they can run at 90 m/s (200 mph) if they roll a +12.
 
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Oneiros said:
I hope I'm just missing something obvious but why are we trying to steal the rift when we don't have anything close to being able to secure it yet?
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You don't need to secure it. Move it a few hundred meters, or a few kilometers and it becomes nearly impossible for the Akatsuki to find. We had trouble finding it with the Sharingan, Byakugan, and our diagnostic seals when we knew exactly where it was.
 
Sir Stompy said:
Yes, Ath 70 ninja can run at 80 m/s (180 mph) they can run at 90 m/s (200 mph) if they roll a +12.
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Hmm, I think WOG is even the fastest ninja run closer to 100 MPH at max speed (when purely running, not counting sub or other ninjutsu, etc).

200 mph starts to get into weird effects from speed that you have to think about like frictional heating, breathing intake, etc. I would reason that bursts of speed represented in the mechanics like this would have a different narrative explanation, but idk.
 
Sir Stompy said:
This is explicitly addressed in my plan already. Perhaps it warrants clarification if multiple people are confused
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Assuming this is what you mean:
Sir Stompy said:
We know that the war with Leopard must demand most of your attention, and we emphatically do not want to distract from that.
  • Aside from the problems caused by being absent from the Seventh Path Hazou knows there's significant backlash when Summons are forcibly dispersed and that could potentially impact the war effort.
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Then I agree, this could do with clarification. As is, it makes me think "strategic command of all of Dog and on-call to repel attacks" not "constant battle of wills where letting up for even a minute means losing an unknown amount of ground".
 
Shrooms said:
Hmm, I think WOG is even the fastest ninja run closer to 100 MPH at max speed (when purely running, not counting sub or other ninjutsu, etc).

200 mph starts to get into weird effects from speed that you have to think about like frictional heating, breathing intake, etc. I would reason that bursts of speed represented in the mechanics like this would have a different narrative explanation, but idk.
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Clearly they can, because the rules say they can. So IDK what you're claiming here. I assume they can't do it for more than 30s or so, but it seems safe to assume that they can do it for roughly that long.
 
Alright someone give me a good argument for why we shouldn't suggest giving skytowers to Cannai.

Pros: Kei will scream, Cannai can conquer Leopard faster, Pantsaa will freak out
Cons: .....scribe time for Hazou? We have SC
 
Sir Stompy said:
Obviously he could take 5 minutes to fight for Hazou if that's all he was doing.
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At an unforeseeable time that might be right in the middle of a battle, or keep information he was delivering (being the fastest traveller in Dog) from getting through in time? It's enough of an imposition to explain why you would put it in your plan, which is all that's needed for confusion.

Sir Stompy said:
Alright someone give me a good argument for why we shouldn't suggest giving skytowers to Cannai.

Pros: Kei will scream, Cannai can conquer Leopard faster, Pantsaa will freak out
Cons: .....scribe time for Hazou? We have SC
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Dogs don't have an organised military with specialist roles in the way that Pangolins use and probably couldn't use skytowers as effectively. We would need to train enough Dogs to activate seals to make it useful.

None of that really makes it a bad idea, though. I think the big problem is it puts a target on our back for the Pangolins. We're already in a precarious situation with Kei and us technically being on opposite sides of a war, I'm not sure we want to make it worse by mass-producing seals for Dog. Then again, though, Dog and Pangolin are not yet directly at war, and it might dissuade Pangolin from attacking Dog at all if they know we'll give Cannai skytowers in response.

I think we would need to make it a limited-term thing, though, otherwise the escalation risk is a concern. Like, we give Dog skytowers to help resolve this war, we don't continue to provide them indefinitely after it's over, or something.
 
Kyreneryk said:
At an unforeseeable time that might be right in the middle of a battle, or keep information he was delivering (being the fastest traveller in Dog) from getting through in time? It's enough of an imposition to explain why you would put it in your plan, which is all that's needed for confusion
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He can refuse the Summoning if it's a bad time. Like it's not forced. He has a choice, do I save my Summoner? Doesn't have to say yes.
Kyreneryk said:
Dogs don't have an organised military with specialist roles in the way that Pangolins use and probably couldn't use skytowers as effectively. We would need to train enough Dogs to activate seals to make it useful.

None of that really makes it a bad idea, though. I think the big problem is it puts a target on our back for the Pangolins. We're already in a precarious situation with Kei and us technically being on opposite sides of a war, I'm not sure we want to make it worse by mass-producing seals for Dog. Then again, though, Dog and Pangolin are not yet directly at war, and it might dissuade Pangolin from attacking Dog at all if they know we'll give Cannai skytowers in response.

I think we would need to make it a limited-term thing, though, otherwise the escalation risk is a concern. Like, we give Dog skytowers to help resolve this war, we don't continue to provide them indefinitely after it's over, or something.
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Sure. We present them as a gift, offer to train a first cohort of Dogs in their use (who can then train others).

If we don't like how they're being used, we stop giving them to Dog.

The problem with the deal was that it was a deal with no end point and no penalty clause. When we found out what the Pangs were doing there was no way to stop it. This is a free gift with the expectation that we'll continue giving, yes. But if the Dogs start enslaving we'd stop.
 
Sir Stompy said:
[] Protoplan: Lord of War
Word Count: <299
Intended Duration: Until we finish Ninja Radar or Mirror Dragon (until then/1.4 solar)
  • Optimize all with Uplift to avoid offending the Bosses
    • Hazou trusts Cannai to use skytowers properly, our primary concern is Kei being ordered to assassinate Hazou. Is that likely?
  • Kumokugo
    • Explain our dilemma about contacting Leaf to her. If we wait too long we can't help, and if we go back too soon what we have might not be enough.
    • Offer suggestions for solving it, either leaving a dead-drop for Orochimaru in a place where he's sure to get it, or we could release her (or another Arachnid) from their oath and have them swear a more specialized one.
    • Once Kumokugo approves, enact the drop, leave a copy of Force Dome research notes as payment.
  • Cannai
    • Hazou doesn't feel like he's doing enough for the war effort.
      • We will start spending our DoB rest days from as a messanger for Dog.
      • Our primary talents have always been as a Sealmaster, and not a fighter. Hazou is willing to start mass producing skytowers for the Dogs to use in Leopard.
        • Assuming Cannai can use skytowers as the Pangolins could. If not, we can give another seal.
        • With the understanding that these are gifts, Hazou is under no obligation to continue giving them if they're misused.
        • Hazou can train Dogs in their use who can then train others.
        • Speaking as a fellow Clan Boss, Pantsaa wouldn't order Kei to kill Hazou over this...right?
    • We know that the war with Leopard and your battle with Hyōhakken must demand most of your attention, and we emphatically do not want to distract from that.
      • Hazou knows there's significant backlash when Summons are forcibly dispersed.
    • It would be incredibly useful if we had an S-Ranked combatant willing to fight our pursuers.
    • Hazou can't summon Cannai with just his natural reserves. However, with Noburi overcharge, there's a good chance.
    • Assuming he says yes, wait until a DoB rest day and make the attempt. Take a Moderate from overcharge and a Mild from overdraw.
      • Noburi on standby for immediate treatment.
  • Research
    • DoB tracks: Ninja Radar, Mirror Dragon
    • Non-DoB track: Banshee Lover
    • Prep days: PLTR 125, Scry-and-Fry, Green Beast, Earth Enhancer, (2 more?)
    • Continue learning mednin
    • Prime scribes 5SB for Kagome to infuse.
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New edit dropped (new plan name)
 
Sir Stompy said:
Alright someone give me a good argument for why we shouldn't suggest giving skytowers to Cannai.

Pros: Kei will scream, Cannai can conquer Leopard faster, Pantsaa will freak out
Cons: .....scribe time for Hazou? We have SC
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I don't know that they'd be able to use Skytowers as effectively as the Pangolins did. I am generally in favour of giving Dog weapons, though. (Although I feel like we had to have discussed that back when the Dog/Leopard war was just starting, and decided not to, for some reason?)

Would giving them Skywalkers not be a good idea? Dogs would need to take some time to learn how to use them, and we would only be able to provide a limited quantity of seals, but it might be a game-changer for some elite deployments.

While we're at it, why not lump Skyslicers there as well? About as hard to set up as Skytowers, IIRC?
 
Sir Stompy said:
Clearly they can, because the rules say they can. So IDK what you're claiming here. I assume they can't do it for more than 30s or so, but it seems safe to assume that they can do it for roughly that long.
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Paperclipped said:
We're not going to pin down precise speeds for obvious reasons, but have a general preference for speeds on the lower end of the numbers being thrown around, closer to 100mph than 200+mph. Of course, terrain features, battle conditions, and even the ninja's rank affects sprinting speeds.
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Noumero said:
Would giving them Skywalkers not be a good idea? Dogs would need to take some time to learn how to use them, and we would only be able to provide a limited quantity of seals, but it might be a game-changer for some elite deployments
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We ran into this issue for our personal Summons. We don't have Dog sandals to deploy them on.

Also, they only last 10 min/pair, compared to 5SB month/6 elements. So we'd need a lot more of them
 
If we propose providing any sort of seal, I have an extremely strong preference for voicing it in a manner that makes it clear that...I can't find the words.

"In addition to (whatever else we can offer) we can provide Skytowers or other seals. Our intuition is that you will refuse but we would be remiss if we did not offer anything within our capabilities to bring the conflict to a close as quickly as possible."

Basically I want to be really clear that this wouldn't be coming up if it wasn't an existential crisis and that we're offering as a matter of not being able to live with ourselves if we didn't at least offer.

My intuition is that he's going to say no. I'm worried that he's going to see this as our thoughtlessly escalating/contributing to the escalation of a conflict in a way that's morally offensive.
 
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Shroomspost that I can't actually quote due to being textless
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The words 'general preference' carry a lot of weight there, I think- an Ath 70+ ninja is a rarity. Yes, Essies can sprint at 200mph as per the rules if they have the Ath for it. They're Essies. That same Paper quote explicitly cites the rank of the ninja as a relevant factor.
 
DanZapman said:
The words 'general preference' carry a lot of weight there, I think- an Ath 70+ ninja is a rarity. Yes, Essies can sprint at 200mph as per the rules if they have the Ath for it. They're Essies. That same Paper quote explicitly cites the rank of the ninja as a relevant factor.
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IIRC part of the original discussion that spanned SV and discord was explicitly about ninja like Gai, who presumably has some of the highest Ath in the setting

Using the same mechanical logic with just Ath 60 still lets you blow past this metric.

Even Ath 50 is what, 6 zones /60 m/s / 135 MPH? I am unpersuaded by "but le numbers allow it" when we've been directly told otherwise what our expectations should be
 
Shrooms said:
Even Ath 50 is what, 6 zones /60 m/s / 135 MPH? I am unpersuaded by "but le numbers allow it" when we've been directly told otherwise what our expectations should be
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I was more thinking of Essie hax like Kisame's stuff about having so much chakra he can just push extra hard from the interlude, but yeah pointing out what Ath 50/60 can do is a more solid point. Seems strange. On the other hand, zones do vary enough that doing strict math with them will produce wonky results. Like if I move across 3 zones I could be starting right at the edge of one and ending right at the edge of the third so that the total distance is overall barely more than one Zone, or moving across the entirety of three Zones. They both get abstracted to the same thing.
 
I don't know why we're getting worried about providing the dogs with seals when we already gave them force blades
 
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