I agree that heat is conceptually complicated. However, in the colloquial usage, "raise the heat" and "raise the temperature" are synonyms, and it seems pretty clear that @Buggy was using "heat" colloquially (since, well, "raising the formal!heat" would indeed be some abstract gobbledygook, so it should've seemed unlikely that they meant that).

I am now overly pedantically arguing that you were overly pedantic. Can we go higher still up the ladder of meta?
Well, I don't think I've ever once heard someone say in standard American English "raising the heat" I have heard them say "heating it up" or "raising the temperature" or something like that.

So I assumed that they were speaking formally. Was this a good assumption? Clearly not.

Was your assertion that I was being pedantic a good one? Well you have to consider that communication along text-only channels is ripe for miscommunication, so sticking to formal definitions is something of a good practice IMO. Although Sage knows we often fall short.

That said, this is place with a much-higher-than-average number of people with physics/chemisry/engineering degrees that I might expect to know this.

Although on further consideration, realistically, most people with just a Bachelor's and no work experience involving physical chemistry/stat mech are going to forget the formal definition of heat in about a year. So I probably should have considered that.

So to sum up, yeah I was being pedantic (unintentionally)
 
Heat isn't really something you can raise. Internal energy, yes. Temperature? Yes.

You can add enthalpy, but you don't raise it.
It's not adding heat, it's 'heating'. Verb, "make or become hot or warm."

Heat is not a thing being added, its a action being done to it.

Edit: Oh I skipped over a lot of discussion, my bad.
 
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Couldn't the clan get a couple more sealcrafters to help him out, so he doesn't spend all his time on chores?
Maybe start by asking the seal bank's top customers if they'd like to retrain for a (mostly) safe desk job, which likely comes with better pay than they've been getting from field work, given the run of bad luck such frequent visits imply.
I note that macerators already exist and (ponwog) would do the milling work quite well so long as they were set to very low ejection velocity so you don't end up with aerosolized flour. Doesn't have the full value you're talking about here, but it gets you part of the way.
That's what gave me the idea. Since maceration is a possible side effect, usually considered undesirable, could be possible to optimize for significantly higher storage capacity and/or easier mass production by adding the "downside" that contents get macerated and then dispensed in a slow trickle rather than all at once.
Another potentially tricky problem is excluding fungi or other contaminants from the grain. Given that Oro invented the relevant type of rice, he'd presumably still have the design notes sitting around somewhere, so could collaborate with him on a selective-storage targeting algorithm which grabs only healthy and sufficiently chakra-free kernels.
 
Tell that to my statistical mechanics professor.

Heat isn't really something you can raise. Internal energy, yes. Temperature? Yes.

You can add enthalpy, but you don't raise it.

I think it's conceptually simplest to raise the temperature.


I wouldn't call it pedantry. Since "heat" is actually conceptually pretty complicated. But fine, whatever.
I support you fully in this.

[X] @Sir Stompy
 
But... it is "raising the temperature". That is specifically what that word means. "Heat" is more-or-less directly substitutable for "raise the temperature".

Heat (up) the pan - Raise the temperature of the pan
I am heating some leftovers - I am raising the temperature of some leftovers
I heated (up) the car - I have raised the temperature of the car
100 degrees heating - temperature raised by 100 degrees

Here's the original text, with every instance of h, e, a, t, in that order, replaced by the alternative phrase. Almost no other changes were necessary:

  • Rune of Monkey Patch
    • To use this rune, place a filled storage seal atop it, and then activate it.
    • The storage seal's contents are lightly modified by the rune; raising the temperature is a good option, but any change that is innocuous and verifiable is acceptable.
    • The contents of the storage seal are not exposed or returned to the world, not even briefly. The storage seal functions as normal afterwards.
  • Temperature-Raising Rune of Monkey Patch
    • Behaves similarly to the prior rune.
    • Greatly raises the temperature of the contents of the storage seal.
    • Yield estimates (approximate, work not shown for brevity)
      • 100 kelvin of temperature raise: Explosive seal equivalent (0.5kg tnt)
      • 1000 kelvin of temperature raise: Low-yield explosive rune equivalent (~100kg tnt)
      • 10,000 kelvin of temperature raise: Surpasses explosive rune (~1 ton tnt)

Further runes could be added for, e.g. compression, sealing in compressed air a-la implosion seals, adding more content to a storage seal, luring a Out Entity into the storage seal to take a nap, etc. But this is a good start.

If anyone wants to help calculate the actual explosion created by raising the temperature of 100kg of water to so-and-so degrees, I'd appreciate it. It's a nontrivial problem.
 
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[X] Action Plan: Leavetaking
Word Count: ???
  • Sanity Check with Mari/Kei/Snow/Noburi
    • Before we agonize over this choice, what are the odds we can get the TS and Tsunade to trade off days? Or each of them could take 6-8 hours of Noburi's time. (Sorry bro)
      • The TS mentioned wanting some time off, and Tsunade surely has other patients to work with
    • Discuss Noburi's dilemma, go over the pros and cons of each decision
    • Toad Sages
      • Pros: Taught Jiraiya, know Sage Mode, TH training/FOOMing on Seventh Path for Hazou, need to stay on good terms to remain Toad Summoner, potentially years of training
      • Cons: Tsunade - Noburi's chosen profession means he has to interact with her occasionally
    • Tsunade
      • Pros: Immediate boost in power, lots of cool medical jutsu, reputation as a doctor
      • Cons: Disrespecting the Toads, leaves Hazou's training in question, might jeopardize Necromancy, only a few months long
    • On balance, Hazou prefers the Toad Sages, but be clear that the final decision is up to him.
    • If alienating one side permanently seems inevitable, could we have Naruto order Noburi to work with Tsunade for a few months? That way the Toad Sages would be angry at Naruto, not Noburi.
  • Ino
    • Meet with her to say goodbrye, give her the official line - that we're going away on a research mission of unknown duration.
    • Promise to send her weekly letters via the Seventh Path
  • Leave with Kei/Kagome
    • Immediately post-departure, have Canvass check the team for any scent-based markers.
    • Break trail with skywalkers a few miles out from Leaf.
    • Make a few unpredictable turns early on to throw anyone off your tail.
    • Head to the recently purchased gold mine.
    • Travel exclusively with skywalkers
  • Gold Mine
    • Set up chakra on tap with Noburi for the duration.
    • Establish a basic perimeter around the mine before starting to ES. Once Hazou is working Kagome can reinforce it.
    • Kei is on overwatch.
    • Enrich a small portion of earth with gold dust as much as is easily possible and move to the next cast of ES.
    • Once the enrichment is complete, Hazou will use Earth Clones to dig up the enriched earth and place it into baskets that can be stored.
    • Bring extra baskets and storage seals.
    • Once the mining is complete pass the gold off to Noburi. Suggest that Mari Water Clones sift it to avoid any INFOSEC leaks.
    • Suggest that Mari take it to the Tower in small portions to have it minted into ryo for a small fee.
  • Head to our research site in one of the following (to be added), choose the final location at random with a die roll and a map.
Okay major updates to my plan. Needs considerable word-trimming. Still need to finalize the location of the research skybase.
 
[Hops in]
[Sees a multi-page discussion on the nuances of how to define "heat"]
[Feels a surge of affection for the community]

I'm not going to bother looking back, but I'm going to assume this relates to a seal or rune in some way. :p

Rip to the QMs, they might qualify for a physics degree after 5+ years of this
 
Perhaps randomized through dice rolls + using a SC to split the trail?
Dice rolls I can do, but we don't really have the chakra for this without refill, and Kaogme doesn't have the jutsu at all.

Also there's no trail to split on skywalkers. And since our range is only 2.5 miles we'd outpace them in ~5-10 minutes.

I think this is sufficient without using SCs.
 
I have heard your concerns! Here is a updated version of the proposal.
Rune of Glorb
(Cooler name achieved)

Runes are cool and epic. They make giant explosions and alter reality! They're the lost art of the Sage, and only us and Vivisection Georg know what they can do! But they also can't seem to move around at all, and convincing our enemies to stand on that big red X is surprisingly difficult.

Seals are neat. They make little explosions, and we can carry a bunch. But they've been done to death by all the other sealmasters; finding something new and useful that they can do is a real challenge.

Clearly, we need to combine the two. Seals can move, runes are strong. Take the strengths, leave the weaknesses. Make a rune that makes a seal powerful.

Of all the paths we could explore, storage seals are a good start. They're intended to carry stuff for later, and we've got experience weaponizing them.

I suggest the following two runes to start out with:
  • Rune of Glorb
    • To use this rune, place a filled storage seal atop it, and then activate it.
    • The storage seal's contents are lightly modified by the rune; glorb is a good option, but any change that is innocuous and verifiable is acceptable.
    • The contents of the storage seal are not exposed or returned to the world, not even briefly. The storage seal functions as normal afterwards.
  • Greater Rune of Glorb
    • Behaves similarly to the prior rune.
    • Strongly glorbs the contents of the storage seal.
    • Yield estimates (approximate, work not shown for brevity)
      • 100 glorb: Explosive seal equivalent (0.5kg tnt)
      • 1,000 glorb: Low-yield explosive rune equivalent (~100kg tnt)
      • 10,000 glorb: Surpasses explosive rune (~1 ton tnt)

Further runes could be added for, e.g. flerbing, sealing in blurbled air a-la blurble seals, adding more finteen to a storage seal, luring a Out Entity into the storage seal to take a nap, etc. But this is a good start.

If anyone wants to help calculate the actual explosion created by glorbing 100kg of water to so-and-so glorbs, I'd appreciate it. It's a nontrivial problem.
 
Okay major updates to my plan. Needs considerable word-trimming. Still need to finalize the location of the research skybase.
Gold's got a fairly low melting point and efficiency isn't too much of a concern, so we might be able to smelt the stuff over a campfire and then store nuggets or ingots rather than dust, cutting out whole lines about baskets. Send Mari a storage seal full of gold, she probably won't need to be told exactly how to make OPSEC-appropriate use of it.
 
Thought oro would be more excited about resurrrection/immortality.
Oro wasn't excited to talk about immortality for understandable reasons imo.

The particular subject of the conversation was about cooperation among immortals. The subject was
raised as a transparent and probably insulting attempt to manipulate him. We already knew Oro doesn't care for cooperation and he's probably exceedingly tired of people trying to convince him to be more prosocial.

Oro wants to be immortal. He doesn't care if anyone else is. Hazō also wants to be immortal, but Oro doesn't respect us because we have shown no measurable progress toward immortality aside from the rift which we aren't even working on anymore.

We omitted the existence of rift from him despite multiple other clan heads knowing, and then tried to trade him for the rift research when he's well aware that we need him to research the rift.

In a vacuum the immortal cooperation topic probably would've been tolerated. Since Oro was already annoyed at us it made things much worse.
 
Noburi should 1000% play hard to get. Tsunade is going to fume at being a medics second choice, especially if and when he still spends all the time he can at the hospital.
I'd vote for it. What's the worst that could happen? Incredulous laughter and disbelief?
(From us, the player base.)

After doing some handwavey fermi calculations based on the total surplus that Leaf creates, (assuming most of it is captured in taxes, ala ~subsistance wage farmers, reasonable estimates of clan heads revenue, how much we plausibly spent to bribe everyone, and Leaf's total government budget, it seems plausible that Hazo and co. are producing something like 20% of Leaf's total GDP output? Maybe more? And will probably be around ~90% of all Leaf's export value? If not today then, very soon? (And that's not counting the unrealized value of exporting skywalkers, something akin to maybe(?) many F-35's in value) Something to think about.

For example Zimbabwe, a very poor, backwards, military dictatorship, with low levels of tech (sounds familiar?) has around 50% of their exports in one thing, Gold.

And Botswana has 90% of their exports in solely diamonds.

Hazo, controls both those industries. We're the CEO of the major oil company in the middle east, so to speak. Resource curse, much? But also, 🤑!
 
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Sanity Check with Mari/Kei/Snow/Noburi
  • Before we agonize over this choice, what are the odds we can get the TS and Tsunade to trade off days? Or each of them could take 6-8 hours of Noburi's time. (Sorry bro)
    • The TS mentioned wanting some time off, and Tsunade surely has other patients to work with
@Sir Stompy it's worth asking if the Toad Sages are fine starting Noburi's training a few months from now. Seems like Tsunade might only be here for a few months.

I'm sure Mari can find a way to give Noburi cover with the toad sages for short delay, especially if we let her throw us or Naruto under the bus. Trying to do both definitely comes across as greedy and is liable to upset both of them.
"That sounds incredible," Noburi said honestly. "But the Toad Sages have offered to train me-"

"Oh, fuck off," Tsunade said. "Tell those old geezers I told them that. I'm going to be in Leaf for the next few months no matter what, and I don't appreciate having my time wasted, Noburi. Either you're going to show up at the Senju estate tomorrow morning so we can start figuring out your bloodline, or you're going to go figure out a way to make sure that your damned name never gets spoken within my earshot again. Got it?"

So, either permanently torpedo his relationship with Tsunade, or scorn the incredibly prideful Toad Sages' offer of training to work on the medic skills that they didn't really respect. Fantastic.
 
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I'd vote for it. What's the worst that could happen? Incredulous laughter and disbelief?
(From us, the player base.)


After doing some handwavey fermi calculations based on the total surplus that Leaf creates, (assuming most of it is captured in taxes, ala ~subsistance wage farmers, reasonable estimates of clan heads revenue, how much we plausibly spent to bribe everyone, and Leaf's total government budget, it seems plausible that Hazo and co. are producing something like 20% of Leaf's total GDP output? Maybe more? And will probably be around ~90% of all Leaf's export value? If not today then, very soon? (And that's not counting the unrealized value of exporting skywalkers, something akin to maybe(?) many F-35's in value) Something to think about.

For example Zimbabwe, a very poor, backwards, military dictatorship, with low levels of tech (sounds familiar?) has around 50% of their exports in one thing, Gold.

And Botswana has 90% of their exports in solely diamonds.

Hazo, controls both those industries. We're the CEO of the major oil company in the middle east, so to speak. Resource curse, much? But also, 🤑!
Leaf also has to import most of its iron, iirc, and is going through a shortage. Hazou was selling Asuma/the Tower infinite iron ore.
 
The particular subject of the conversation was about cooperation among immortals.
To clarify I meant how the existence of the rift would help him, and anyone else he might care about, to be immortal. And not the immortal cooperation conversation. I agree the context of the conversation would hide such excitement. But I still felt pointing at the disconnect worth mentioning since immortality is his life goal
 
To clarify I meant how the existence of the rift would help him, and anyone else he might care about, to be immortal. And not the immortal cooperation conversation. I agree the context of the conversation would hide such excitement. But I still felt pointing at the disconnect worth mentioning since immortality is his life goal
The rift's immortality might not even appeal to Oro. He apparently can already resurrect himself and seems more fixated on preventing decay due to age. Anyone brought back by the rift will probably still age normally.
 
Gold's got a fairly low melting point and efficiency isn't too much of a concern, so we might be able to smelt the stuff over a campfire and then store nuggets or ingots rather than dust, cutting out whole lines about baskets. Send Mari a storage seal full of gold, she probably won't need to be told exactly how to make OPSEC-appropriate use of it.
Nah, campfire heats at 300C and gold melts at like 1000C, maybe you're thinking of lead? Lead melts at campfire temps.

Why I Think the QMs Should Let Us Mine 10+ Metric Tons of Gold From This Mine

@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped

Historically, gold was most often mined from alluvial deposits through something called placer mining.

This is basically just a fancy way to say that gold was most often mined from stream beds by panning. That is, using flowing water to separate stuff based on its density. Since gold is much denser than sand or silt, it's easy to separate this way.

That gold is deposited in the stream bed by the process of weathering. Gold exists in nature most commonly as a pure metal or solid solution (alloy) and not an oxide. So when gold-containing rocks are broken down by water and wind, the gold dust inside runs off into rivers and makes its way downstream.

When the fast-moving river slows down, due to bank widening or something similar, the gold dust will drop out of suspension and sink to the bottom of the river. Where it builds up over millennia.

Now that the basics have been covered. We can talk rough estimates of how much gold there is in this mine.

The alluvial layer is usually between 0.4-4.0 m deep, with 0.7-2.7 m being common. I'm going to round this off to 2m thick on average.

Hazou can make a 64mx64m×64m cube with a cast of ES at Effect:5

So assuming the alluvial layer averages out to 2m depth across the AoE, that gives 8192 cubic meters of ore, per cast.

Now if we can find the concentration of gold per metric ton of ore, and the density of the ore, we can calculate the gold content per cast of ES.

Gold content ranges wildly between different ore bodies. So it's tough to make assumptions here. A quick Google search says that "high-grade" ore is 20-100g gold/ton (ppm) and "low grade" is 1-4 ppm HOWEVER and this is a huge caveat. That's for modern commercial gold miners, who mine on an enormous scale compared to Iron Age farmers. So they can utilize much much less concentrated ore bodies. I suspect that an Iron Age mine would be "mined out" when the concentration of gold dropped much below 10 ppm. I am going to estimate the concentration of this mine at 10 ppm. The QMs may determine our collective fate by adjusting said concentration. Although I feel like lower than 5 ppm is somewhat unreasonable.

Now for the density calculation. I found this number of 3.3 metric tons/cubic meter for the density of placer ores.

Now putting it together.

8192 m^3 ore * 3.3 metric tons/m^3 * 10 g gold/metric ton = ~270kg gold/cast of ES.

Now to estimate the size of the mine. This website says that "The width of placer gold deposits is generally 50-300m, and the length can reach several kilometers or even dozens of kilometers"

To simplify the math. I will say that this placer gold deposit in question is 128 m wide (2 ES casts) by 3200 m long (50 ES casts)

For a total of 100 ES casts. Which is 270 kg * 100 casts = 27 metric tons of gold.

Now let's do a quick check back with some real mines to see if this number is reasonable. 27 metric tons of gold is about 1,000,000 oz (a little less) comparing to real mines in the Yukon and California, it seems like total gold amounts mined were often in excess of 2-10 million oz. So 1 million oz for the total content of a partially worked out, relatively small, mine seems reasonable to me.

Okay, so how many ryo is this? Well at current prices, it's about $2300 per oz of gold or $75000 per kg. That would be about $2 billion for 27 metric tons.

However, it's worse than that, historically gold has been worth more that that per oz. Inflation adjusted prices are about $3000 per oz in medieval Europe. That would put us at ~$2.6 billion.

Conservatively, it's 20 billion ryo at the 10-to-1 dollar-to-ryo conversion factor that we've used in the past.

Assuming there's a mint fee, but that gold does a little better than $2,300 per oz in PPP, we can probably expect to get roughly 20 billion ryo out of this.
 
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*staring at Rasa's gold-dust jutsu*

Edit:
Nvmd, that relies on the Magnet Release bloodline.
Also, Magnet Release. To manipulate gold. Damnit Kishimoto.
 
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Nah, campfire heats at 300C and gold melts at like 1000C, maybe you're thinking of lead? Lead melts at campfire temps.

Why I Think the QMs Should Let Us Mine 10+ Metric Tons of Gold From This Mine

@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped

Historically, gold was most often mined from alluvial deposits through something called placer mining.

This is basically just a fancy way to say that gold was most often mined from stream beds by panning. That is, using flowing water to separate stuff based on its density. Since gold is much denser than sand or silt, it's easy to separate this way.

That gold is deposited in the stream bed by the process of weathering. Gold exists in nature most commonly as a pure metal or solid solution (alloy) and not an oxide. So when gold-containing rocks are broken down by water and wind, the gold dust inside runs off into rivers and makes its way downstream.

When the fast-moving river slows down, due to bank widening or something similar, the gold dust will drop out of suspension and sink to the bottom of the river. Where it builds up over millennia.

Now that the basics have been covered. We can talk rough estimates of how much gold there is in this mine.

The alluvial layer is between 0.4-4.0 m deep, with 0.7-2.7 m being common. I'm going to round this off to 2m thick on average.

Hazou can make a 64mx64m×64m cube with a cast of ES at Effect:5

So assuming the alluvial layer averages out to 2m depth across the AoE, that gives 8192 cubic meters of ore, per cast.

Now if we can find the concentration of gold per metric ton of ore, and the density of the ore, we can calculate the gold content per cast of ES.

Gold content ranges wildly between different ore bodies. So it's tough to make assumptions here. A quick Google search says that "high-grade" ore is 20-100g gold/ton (ppm) and "low grade" is 1-4 ppm HOWEVER and this is a huge caveat. That's for modern commercial gold miners, who mine on an enormous scale compared to Iron Age farmers. So they can utilize much much less concentrated ore bodies. I suspect that an Iron Age mine would be "mined out" when the concentration of gold dropped much below 10 ppm. I am going to estimate this concentration at 10 ppm. The QMs may determine our collective fate by adjusting said concentration. Although I feel like lower than 5 ppm is somewhat unreasonable.

Now for the density calculation. I found this number of 3.3 metric tons/cubic meter for the density of placer ores.

Now putting it together.

8192 m^3 ore * 3.3 metric tons/m^3 * 10 g gold/metric ton = approx 270kg gold/cast of ES.

Now to estimate the size of the mine. This website says that "The width of placer gold deposits is generally 50-300m, and the length can reach several kilometers or even dozens of kilometers"

To simplify the math. I will say that this placer gold deposit in question is 128 m wide (2 ES casts) by 3200 m long (50 ES casts)

For a total of 100 ES casts. Which is 270 kg *100 casts = 27 metric tons of gold.

Now let's do a quick check back with some real mines to see if this number is reasonable. 27 metric tons of gold is about 1,000,000 oz (a little less) comparing to real mines in the Yukon and California, it seems like total gold amounts mined were often in excess of 2-10 million oz. So 1 million oz for the total content of a partially worked out, relatively small mine seems reasonable to me.
@Paperclipped why don't you go ahead and just put an 80 in our Wealth category
 
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