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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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notanautomaton said:
Can you at least put in the 'they're going after Jinchuriki' bit?
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No, because this relies on metaknowledge we (Hazou) do not have; without canon knowledge I would assign significantly higher probability that this was orchestrated to cripple Leaf and Mist simultaneously and put their (other) enemies on a better playing ground. Wouldn't be surprised to think Jiraiya is gonna be looking at Rock and Cloud reaaaal hard. Maybe Sand too, depending on how strong Sand is.
Noumero said:
Yep, those are WMG. But Kagome's information:

  • One-Tail: Sand?
  • Two-Tails: Demon?
  • Three-Tails: Mist.
  • Four-Tails: Is lost?
  • Five-Tails: Bear.
  • Six-Tails: No record for 50 years.
  • Seven-Tails: Unknown.
  • Eight-Tails: Cloud.
  • Nine-Tails: Leaf.
  • Note: one of the bijuu is definitely in Sand, but it may not be One-Tail.

Comes from the same reports he saw the sky squids in. It's at least somewhat realiable, and if Leaf has its own information on the beasts' locations, they may compare the lists and end up with truly reliable ones.
Telling it to Jiraiya won't take more than thirty seconds, and could play a crucial role in the conflict. It's worth mentioning.
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My problem is less "I don't believe Kagome really knows where the bijuu are" (though I have a problem with that as well), and more "I don't see how this is relevant".

Also, the sky squid stack was with the Two-Tails specifically, which doesn't speak for the rest of them.
 
Anything we want to tell Jiraiya we can tell Mari to tell him. That way we only have to bother him with mission critical questions
 
Yeah, based on what we've seen, Shikaku should end up no lower than #2 in the Konoha power structure.

He's not someone who can look the badass, at least compared to Jiraiya or Hiashi, but good lord he'd probably the most competent administrator in the elemental nations. Not least because he's lazy enough to pick effective subordinates.
 
Cariyaga said:
Mari heard it too. She'll have the chance to talk to him about it when he's not dead on his feet.
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This for everything. Jiraiya is exhausted. Any time he has to spend talking to Hazou should be to give information we need for a successful mission. Any information that Mari has access to she can be assumed to brief him on at a later date.

Jello_Raptor said:
Yeah, based on what we've seen, Shikaku should end up no lower than #2 in the Konoha power structure.

He's not someone who can look the badass, at least compared to Jiraiya or Hiashi, but good lord he'd probably the most competent administrator in the elemental nations. Not least because he's lazy enough to pick effective subordinates.
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Forget "end up", he was #3 before Sarutobi died and by default he's #2 right now.

...it is kind of amusing to me that the attack of Akatsuki has enabled him to avoid any political fallout for "planning the mission that got the Hokage killed". I mean, just imagine that Akatsuki had not attacked. They would be back in that conference room and everyone would be giving Jiraiya and Shikaku all the shit about getting the Hokage killed because they didn't stack the deck enough in their favor.
 
faflec said:
My problem is less "I don't believe Kagome really knows where the bijuu are" (though I have a problem with that as well), and more "I don't see how this is relevant".
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Akatsuki was murdering everyone up to the point when it captured the jinchuuriki, and then left without murdering Jiraiya, which it would have done if its intent was to cripple Leaf. Having jinchuuriki makes you powerful, and that canon!Akatsuki was doing it doesn't mean it's not obvious.
'Akatsuki hunts Tailed Beasts' is a valid hypothesis Hazou could have come up with based on the available information.

Cariyaga said:
Mari heard it too. She'll have the chance to talk to him about it when he's not dead on his feet.
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Maybe she won't think about it. Maybe it's immediately important: we play the role of messengers, what if he would have new orders to his network based on this?
Scratch that, good point. @faflec, would you mind having Hazou tell the locations to Mari, along with his WMG theory about 'Akatsuki is after jinchuuriki'?
 
faflec said:
No, because this relies on metaknowledge we (Hazou) do not have; without canon knowledge I would assign significantly higher probability that this was orchestrated to cripple Leaf and Mist simultaneously and put their (other) enemies on a better playing ground. Wouldn't be surprised to think Jiraiya is gonna be looking at Rock and Cloud reaaaal hard. Maybe Sand too, depending on how strong Sand is.
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They captured two Jinchuriki, killing all others. It's a perfectly reasonable theory to create. And it's not like we haven't relied on meta-knowledge before, see, fleeing Iron after the QM's told us Zabuza was coming.
 
notanautomaton said:
They captured two Jinchuriki, killing all others. It's a perfectly reasonable theory to create. And it's not like we haven't relied on meta-knowledge before, see, fleeing Iron after the QM's told us Zabuza was coming.
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Serious question.

Is this a concern that if Hazou doesn't say something then nobody in Leaf will make the connection, "they were after the jinchuriki"? Or is this about Hazou getting credit for it, showing how clever he is by thinking about it before anyone else can bring it up?
 
@Jello_Raptor I would double check those values for strength. I think I found one of the tables that you used as a reference, and I can't find any information on its credibility. You should also check your units; it looks like you used psi rather than MPa for the values for the metals.

From the machinery handbook, I get about 194-310 MPa ultimate shear strength for wrought iron (close to pure). From this website, which I don't know the validity of, the strength of wrought iron is about 76% at 500 C. Note that this probably applies to tensile strength, and I don't know how temperature affects shear strength.

I would caution against using engineering toolbox, since I've found conflicting or confusing information on there before.
 
Briefvoice said:
Is this a concern that if Hazou doesn't say something then nobody in Leaf will make the connection, "they were after the jinchuriki"? Or is this about Hazou getting credit for it, showing how clever he is by thinking about it before anyone else can bring it up?
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Is wanting to get credit for it a problem? I mean, it's not like we're new ninja in Leaf who desperately need to prove their worth over and over again before people accept us, right?
 
notanautomaton said:
And it's not like we haven't relied on meta-knowledge before, see, fleeing Iron after the QM's told us Zabuza was coming.
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No; actually that was because it was cold as balls, Mari was getting SAD, and it was Noburi's birthday so we "let him decide" where to go. Completely unrelated and definitely not metagaming.
 
Briefvoice said:
Is this a concern that if Hazou doesn't say something then nobody in Leaf will make the connection, "they were after the jinchuriki"? Or is this about Hazou getting credit for it, showing how clever he is by thinking about it before anyone else can bring it up?
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The question wasn't aimed at me, but since I argue for the same: I personally don't care who gets the credit and am pretty sure someone will think of it; I care about providing Leaf with Kagome's information, which could only be done if Hazou comes up with the 'they were after the jinchuriki' guess first.
 
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Noumero said:
The question wasn't aimed at me, but since I argue for the same: I personally don't care who gets the credit and am pretty sure someone will think of it; I care about providing Leaf with Kagome's information, which could only be done if Hazou comes up with the 'they were after the jinchuriki' guess first.
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Mari has all of Kagome's information, so can't she provide it?
 
Briefvoice said:
Mari has all of Kagome's information, so can't she provide it?
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Yes she can; that's why I'm now arguing for reminding her of it, which would, again, necessitate Hazou coming up with the guess first.
She doesn't have the perfect recall, may have forgotten the exact locations; Jiraiya may not provide her with the information about Akatsuki's goals, so they only way she would tell him is, she figures out the goal on her own, remembers Kagome's story, and decides to share it, which is uncomfortably unlikely.
 
Vecht said:
Oh, that was because it was Hazou's birthday and he wanted to go someplace exotic that he'd never been before. Completely unrelated and definitely not metagaming.

Right?

RIGHT? :mob:
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We will never ever fight Zabuza. Never.

Zabuza is never going to pierce us with his enormous and mighty sword.

I wonder what happened to Kubikiribōchō after the Noodle fight.
 
Shear strength is irrelevant. You've been specifying "white hot" iron. That's not only past any alloy's melting point, it's way past pure iron's boiling point. The closest you're going to get is light-orange.

Again, use carbon. It can get hot enough to have a peak in the visible spectrum, has almost perfect emissivity, will add its own enormous combustion energy to the output, is soft enough to be minced extremely fine and fast, and the product is a gas. You can even adjust the same seal to be an explosive or a flashbang by just changing the dispersal area or charge load.

Short of breaking out candoluminescence there isn't going to be a more energy efficient approach, and even then it won't be as mass efficient.
 
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More suggested additions/changes in Orange. Again, not in the actual plan yet.
[X] Action Plan: Leaf Leaf

  • General policies:
    • Refer to Jiraiya as Hokage-sama unless he says otherwise.
    • Minami is our squad leader. We defer to her plans, but give well thought-out advice (i.e., the plan).
      • That being said, don't overburden her with too much information.
  • Some quick things for Hokage-sama before he goes to bed.
    • Do we have authorization to use Skywalkers for speed/stealth purposes?
    • Ask for some details on the Bird Summon such that the Pangolins can more quickly find and deliver said information to Leaf.
      • Jiraiya can delegate the information to Nakamura if needed (pretty sure Nakamura was still there).
    • Say that you're sorry for his loss, in Hazou-speak.
      • Give a hug if appropriate.
  • Talk with Minami.
    • Do this while we're moving to get gear/prep.
    • Trade intel on general abilities/seals/protocols.
      • Make note of how we use Noburi's bloodline to boost our border crossings with chakra (without the risk of running out).
      • (If authorized) Brief Minami on Skywalkers.
  • Get/make supplies (split up to do this):
    • Kunai & shuriken.
    • Rations.
    • Seal-quality paper and ink(stones).
    • Specialized things:
      • Water supply (for Noburi's jutsu).
      • Macerator payloads:
        • Very fragrant things, ideally very fargrant oils for scent bombs. Something that clings to people would be best.
        • Some irritants (like pepper or chillis) for irritant bombs.
        • Very fine ash or talk for smoke bombs.
        • Iron that we can heat for a flash-bang.
          • We can superheat iron ourselves using Elemental Mastery if a smithy is unavailable.
          • Alternatively we just do this when visiting some village with a blacksmith.
      • Portable Skybase.
      • Make Skywalkers (if authorized).
  • Talk to Mari.
    • Make sure she knows we still love her. Give her a hug.
    • Ask if Keiko should send a Pangolin messenger (contracted to her) to the Toad Clan via Summoning Realm.
      • Have we already done this?
      • Would allow Keiko to summon the messenger to give updates to the Toad Clan, and therefore to Jiraiya.
      • Would allow Jiraiya to send messages to the messenger through the Toad Clan, and therefore to Keiko.
      • Grants rapid communications between Konoha and our team after the 10 day travel time.
    • What else?
  • Leaf Leaf.
    • Defer to the Hokage and head to Rivers first.
    • Use Skywalkers if authorized.
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Adept_Woodwright said:
For seals: Does Lesser Barrier Formation require a straight-line, unimpeded path for the trip wire? Can I set up a trigger on one side of a wall, and have it activate a seal on the other side? Either way, is there a distance limitation?

If the above doesn't work, can you hook up a lesser barrier formation to trip another lesser barrier formation, in series until you get to a seal you actually want to activate? Note that I do not think this violates the danger rule of hooking multiple seals on one end, though I would want the concept vetted by Kagome.

I saw a post earlier about the purifying seal being a seal version of Vacuum step, and think it could easily be an alternative means of propulsion for the zeppelin project - create a vacuum on one side of a body (zeppelin or other shape) so the pressure on the other side pushes you in the right direction.

You could even use it as the primary component of lift (although the idea bypasses the "heat makes thing rise" revelation which was cool)

On the plus side, we have the seals that make it work now.

Additionally, if we go to Leaf, it is a think we can show Jiraiya that says "If you give us seals you know, we will munchkin the heck out of them. Please give us nice things so we can do that."

It also lets us build vehicle shapes that are less obvious.
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Adept_Woodwright said:
I was basing off of the wiki "Repeatedly absorbs all gas within a 60-degree 3-metre cone in rapid bursts of suction. "

With an admittedly poor understanding of how high the frequency of the rapid burst is.

We could supplement the thrust generated by differential pressure by expelling the out-port of the purifier array into a pressure chamber and nozzle (probably wouldn't be able to justify this easily in character).

Regardless, making an actual vacuum with high frequency suction is either a matter of upping the frequency, or precise timing of multiple purifiers.

One of the main alternatives, if I recall correctly, relies on making an explosive seal that doesn't blow up enough to ruin the underlying deal.

Neither is impossible, but difficulty is a matter of degrees.

Edit: I trawled back - credit for Vacuum Step similarity to Lailoken =)
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Adept_Woodwright said:
If we up the frequency of emptying the cone (either by seal work on the purifier or by using two or more purifier seals) then we avoid having the vacuum fill back up at all, preventing any substantial shock formation. We are then left with no particles hitting the surface in the area in which we set up the vacuum, and particles on the other side propel us into the vacuum.

I'm on phone, so finding/linking old posts is hard, but I'm pretty sure Uematsu's purifier alternates between intake and exhale mode, and spends half time on each. So two seals set to work on directly opposed cycles might create a vacuum.
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Adept_Woodwright said:
@Veedrac





Have I missed an update on how the purifier works? My read is that it rapidly removes all gas in the cone, then alternates to output.

I don't see anything that suggests it is particularly slow. Jiraiya characterizes it as "sharp bursts" (didn't quote all of CH 95... follow first quote to threadmark.)

All of the edits:
Ah. I think I get where youre coming from. The actual absorption of the gas isn't fast enough to get the cone cleared out instantly. I was picturing the cone instantly voiding into seal-space, whereas you have the particles traverse to touch the seal.

Could still work. You don't really need a vacuum in the cone, you just need to make sure no particles hit the vehicle surface. If you have the seal held so the base of the cone is tangent to the surface, and suction points away from the body, then all particles should instantly stop going toward the surface, and the surface *sees* an effective vacuum.
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Adept_Woodwright said:
I'd like to have Hazou run some experiments on Usamatsu's Glorious Life Saving Purifier, don't mind if it happens off screen.



Basically, I want to hammer down what is physically going on:

Does it seal all particles in the cone (instantly), pause, unseal from second outlet (instantly) creating double dense air instantaneously?
- if this, we have an interface of vacuum to air that violently contracts at the speed of sound from all directions (lots of energy lost to viscosity/turbulent mixing, haven't checked how the shock behaves)
- can accelerate items at interface with clever synchronizing of two+ seals
- after first cycle, air is captured only as it enters the interface, resulting a estimable (stepwise) steady flow
- Length of pause is research avenue

Same as above, replace (instantly) with (over small time increment)
- how small? Answer determines size/strength of vacuum. Too large of an increment, and most of the purpose of the seal is lost
- solid surface at base of cone makes vacuum easier
- time increment is research avenue.

Does it change all gas particle momentum to point toward the seal, so it suctions up only the particles that enter the cone?
- vacuum again possible, as long as a solid surface blocks at the far end of the cone
- synchronized duty cycles make vacuum last.

Does it ramp the volume up and down during start and end? This would eliminate any concern for shocks at the end, and would help explain the "explosion" after sealing failure.

Reasons why the idea hasn't been thought of before
- synchronicity of seals is non obvious.
- Usamatsu's seal is not widely known (was a sealing professional that Jiraiya knew in his lifetime, who's naming conventions earns derision)
- mechanism to hold seal in front of object not obvious. If you fail to do this, debris may come and shred the seal.
- common use case doesn't suggest anything like using vacuums for anything, people may have dismissed the effect as a quirk of the seal

The seal has to empty the cone reasonably quickly and regularly, in order to purge toxins.

@Community, before I pester the GMs, is there anything I'm missing, options I've omitted? I don't mind retcon of the seal, I just want to know how it works. Each of the above scenarios should be easily testable, in some fashion or another.

Edit: and would point us to how it actually works, if none of these are right.
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Adept_Woodwright said:
Depending on how Usamatsu's Purifier seal actually works, we could do really interesting stuff with it. Testing to figure it out should take on the order of a couple days (Because we have it, don't need to add anything to it - just want to rest how it works. (Heck, Kagome probably knows a lot of the answers that we do not, in thread)

- what happens if we have two intake seals with overlapping cones?
- how rapid is a rapid burst of suction?
- is the current understanding (absorb all gas in cone, in rapid burst) valid?

@OliWhail @Velorien @eaglejarl

I'm not sure how firmly you have nailed down Usamatsu's seal, and would be glad to offer what insights I have from fluid dynamics - I wouldn't mind a change in the current description of the seal, so long as it fits your intent when you designed it.

If I were to describe my guess at the seals function, based on other known seals (have we seen it on screen? I know Hazo has seen it working, but I don't think we have):

Upon activation, a small cone of air is immediately absorbed over a short period, and then the seal switches to expel over the same period.

A light thwopping sound is emitted as the gas particles near the seal impact and form a relatively weak shock (where the cone comes to a point) next burst occurs before substantial shock formation.

The size of the cone expands during every suction period, so that the flow rate through the seal never exceeds the design point.

The size stabilizes at the design point (3 meter cone), and cannot exceed 3 m

I expect the transition (small to stable) would be very fast, but won't bother with calculations until we affirm that this is roughly on track.

Upon termination, the seal contracts the size of the cone over a small number of cycles, eliminating the noise generated by the whole 3 meter cone collapsing at once.

2 overlapping cones have no substantial effect, other than clearing particles out faster in the overlap (suction period would be the same) - output sides would have less throughput.

I assume suction is used to describe the sucking sound, and the feeling of air being pulled into the vacuum-cone over short bursts, and not a process of actually transporting molecules toward the seal (more bizarre effects probably happen in this case)

Please let me know what you all think! I'm trying to reconcile rapid burst sucking in all gas in a volume, and the general assumptions in thread.
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Adept_Woodwright said:
I'd still like clarification on how fast Usamatsu's Purifier takes in air, and how quickly it switches. I've offered ideas in the past on how it might rapidly take in all the gas in a cone, and I can link to it later (out and about, on phone)

I think we'd have observed enough to get a guess, or just ask Kagome (who should know pretty well)

@Velorien @OliWhail @eaglejarl

Just let me know if y'all want a link to my previous posts on the matter.
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@OliWhail @Velorien @eaglejarl

I've linked my old posts on the purifier.

The only information I have says the seal
- alternates between intake and exhale
- absorbs all gas in 60 deg cone, in sharp bursts
- the exhale cone is separate from the intake, but otherwise identical.

Can the intakes of two seals be safely overlapped? I believe this is true, as a standard use case is for multiple ninja carrying these, interacting in a constrained environment.
Are the intake and exhale cones coterminous? I presume no, as I envisioned the exhale pointing into a rebreather. Not super vital, though it does make designs easier to consider.
How fast is the alternation? I presume fairly quick, otherwise poison diffusion kills ninja before it is cleared
Are particles translated through the cone, or do they get sealed from a distance? Translation fits the theme of sucking, and makes the vacuum problem less evident in normal operation. Sealing is my preferred theory, though I can get a vacuum with either, so not vital.

All these things, Kagome knows for sure - and I'd be surprised if Hazou hasn't asked yet. If these questions are answered, I can refine my ideas for the proposal and actually figure out if it works.

Note, if you want to answer questions like these with general requirements, I'd be glad to work out the physics to make those requirements work, with minimal side effects. As a fluid dynamicist, I'd be more comfortable doing that than any of the math I've contributed to so far.
 
@faflec should really ask The Hokage if there anything he recommends we recognition. Say something about how we've basically been missing nin our whole career so don't know what we have access to.
 
Oneiros43 said:
@faflec should really ask The Hokage if there anything he recommends we recognition. Say something about how we've basically been missing nin our whole career so don't know what we have access to.
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Seems like a question we'd ask Minami or Mari-sensei?

I mean, unless it's critical to ask Jiraiya specifically I'd much rather shunt questions away from Mr. Tired Godaime Hokage.
 
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