For your question, no. If my original post was unclear, I'm saying that them having to be a duo when they go on the 7th Path has implications for what the other duos can be, whenever relevant. If you want to add nuance, I suggest reading my original post to ensure I didn't already consider that nuance. For the second bit, Akatsuki was noted to be ultra-paranoid by ninja standards even before Kakuzu died. I do think that Akatsuki SOP has been, since their resurrection at least, to never have your partner need more than a round or two to be relevant to a fight if at all possible.
"I'll be back tomorrow to get what intelligence you have on the Dragons. I'll introduce you to the Crow Summoner when he arrives. Until then, I'll leave you two to discuss whatever you need to about the Crusade. Empress. Gōketsu."
"Hidan," Kakuzu said. "We are traveling together for a reason. You will sit down and wait while we decide the agreement before you run off on some imbecilic 'tourism'."
"Fuck that, I did my part. You fiddle with the numbers and the ryō. C'mon, kid," he said, gesturing at Hazō to follow. "We gotta lotta catchin' up to do."
Here Hidan left with Hazou and left Kakuzu in the Hokage office. And yes, it's Hidan who is breaking their rule in the middle of Leaf. Which is why I declared him part of the idioit duo.
So I think Itachi/Kisame are free to play babysitter.
... So now that we have TH, is it time to finally look at what the heck is going on with PCJ? It's basically the only long term buff jutsu we've ever seen.
... So now that we have TH, is it time to finally look at what the heck is going on with PCJ? It's basically the only long term buff jutsu we've ever seen.
... So now that we have TH, is it time to finally look at what the heck is going on with PCJ? It's basically the only long term buff jutsu we've ever seen.
Honestly, I kind of went with my gut here, thinking about the way probability is quantified in information theory and the fact that Hidan will be using Jashin to directly receive information (for which bits are, of course, the natural unit). The specific format I used, log_2(1/p), is the definition of surprisal, which...
Thanks. I'll note I'm not suspicious of the results you get once you make your assumption, I think it's natural that the result basically has to look one particular way if you spend bits roughly intelligently, but I remain suspicious of the frame of 'fixed number of bits per semantic task.'
Thanks. I'll note I'm not suspicious of the results you get once you make your assumption, I think it's natural that the result basically has to look one particular way if you spend bits roughly intelligently, but I remain suspicious of the frame of 'fixed number of bits per semantic task.'
Agreed. I do think there's a limited something there, since unlimited "probability-manipulation" is just "immediately rearrange the entire world into whatever shape you like". And then if we think about it as pure probability-manipulation, then measuring it in terms of "how off-course Jashin sets the world compared to its natural causal trajectory" also seems natural.
But of course it might not actually be "pure" probability-manipulation. E. g., maybe it's easier for Jashin to manipulate dice, or to manipulate smaller objects. Maybe it's not probability-manipulation at all, but some sort of telekinesis and mind-control centered on Hidan, with completely different restrictions.
And the "per semantic task" is definitely very shaky. Maybe Hidan instead gets a monthly allowance of bits, and can spend them however he wants? Or maybe it's a function of the number of people he killed. Maybe that function is nonlinear, and also sensitive to whatever divine conflicts in Out we're not privy to. Or, again, maybe it's not about actual probability-manipulation at all, and it's parceled out in an utterly different manner.
(Though Hidan's point about Jashin getting bored about doing the same thing over and over lends some credence to the per-task formulation.)
Agreed. I do think there's a limited something there, since unlimited "probability-manipulation" is just "immediately rearrange the entire world into whatever shape you like".
To add some texture to the hypothesis space, here's a formulation I think is natural:
In order to get Jashin's guidance, you have to meet a TN. The difficulty depends on how much Jashin is interested in the means and outcome, rituals you have done for or are promising Jashin, whether Jashin is bored of this task or not, how much you have asked Jashin, etc. If you score well first roll, you might get pointed in exactly the right direction, up to Jashin's trigonometric ability, but if you stray from the path and ask again it might take more mass murder to keep its attention. Ultimately, with the right dedication there might be no limit to how much you can ask of them, in terms of bits, but also Jashin might never want to guide you into a desolate expanse where there are no civilians to kill, and probably even if it wanted to Jashin couldn't help with your math homework.
To repeat: I am just presenting the above to help demonstrate a range of plausible options, not because I think this version specifically is evidenced.
"It's time," Hazō announced grimly as the four members of Operation Twilight (Snowflake had decided that if Kei got to name the site of operations, then someone needed to name the mission as well) gathered on the central skytower. Furious winds lashed the outside of the old-fashioned seal-based air dome while the torrential rain pouring down it made Hazō feel like he was sitting inside an oversized Hōzuki's Mantle. The occasional flash of lightning reminded him that the team was altogether closer to the heavens than was currently sensible.
"Naruto has sent us a message," he went on. "Come back with your shark or in your shark."
"What?!" Kagome-sensei demanded as he rose sharply to his feet, the lanky man's head brushing perilously against the dome. "So that stinking Fox has finally got to the direct threats, has it? I told you we should never have–"
"Kagome!" Kei snapped. She held his gaze for a moment, and Hazō's sealing instructor sat back down sheepishly. After a second, the cold retreated.
"I will overlook, for the moment, the uncalled-for insult to my dear friend," she said. "Hazō was merely referencing a traditional Hoshigaki saying. It means, 'It is better to perish in the course of completing a mission than to abandon it and return to the clan in dishonour'. I must say it is a deeply ironic one to use in this particular company."
Hazō looked at his companions. Kei's eyebrows were quirked in amusement. Snowflake was giving him an 'oh, really?' look. Kagome-sensei seemed ill-at-ease.
"That occurred to me about half a second after I said it," Hazō admitted. "But I'm being serious. Itachi turned up in Leaf and demanded my return. Obviously, that's not an option. I can't gamble my life and Leaf's future on beating an Akatsuki interrogation. In other words, I have to go missing, and the people who know what I've been doing and why have to go missing with me.
"This is it. Either we complete Operation Twilight and are welcomed back to Leaf as heroes or we die at Akatsuki's hands before we can. For those of us who refuse to accept a future determined by Pain, there is no third option.
"I'm sorry it's come to this. It might not have if I'd been able to complete my research in time. But we all knew before we set out that it was more likely to turn out this way than not. I have to admit I hoped Naruto would be able to buy us more time, but I've long since learned not to count on best-case scenarios."
"He cannot be blamed," Kei interjected. "This part of the plan hinged on forcing him to face his personal nemesis, the man who stripped him of his power and doubtless tortured him in unimaginable ways in the process of preparing him for a uniquely agonising death that would use him as a tool for his loved ones' doom. A man, furthermore, with extensive experience practising psychic domination of other S-rankers with the aid of a Bloodline Limit ideally suited to the task. Your worst encounters with Orochimaru would be a luxurious soak in the hot springs by comparison. That the Eighth was able to stand firm and follow the plan at all is an achievement to be respected rather than a failure to excel."
Hazō sighed. "You're right, of course. Still, we are where we are. It takes less than two weeks to get back from the southern islands where we officially are to Hidden Leaf. Assuming Akatsuki bought the cover story in the first place, that's how long we have before they stop being polite and go after us with everything they've got."
"You are correct," Kei said, looking away, at the raging storm almost close enough to touch. "This was always the expected outcome. I… had believed I was better prepared."
Snowflake squeezed her hand. "At least now I no longer need to feel excluded from the formative missing-nin experience," she said with false cheer.
Hazō couldn't think of anything to say to that. Snowflake had fought hard, in ways none of them had ever had to, to make Leaf her home. She'd had to fight to be accepted as a person, then as a legal entity, then a citizen, all in the name of a place to belong that the rest of them had taken for granted ever since the skywalker trade and Jiraiya's subsequent adoption all those years ago. Now, she was about to lose everything she'd earned, with no guarantee and little agency when it came to ever getting it back.
He could only move on.
"Our first priority needs to be the other Gōketsu," he said. "In particular, I'm worried about Noburi, Mari, and Yuno. Without Noburi, my research slows down massively and Operation Twilight becomes a lot less viable as a race against time. On top of that, it seems like a natural move for Itachi to take them hostage to force us out of hiding. Obviously, that can't be allowed to happen. Our family needs to be out of Leaf before Akatsuki discover they need the leverage.
"Does that sound right to you three? If I'm exaggerating the danger, then obviously they need to stay in Leaf. I would never ask anyone to go through all the trauma and peril of going missing again unless there was no other choice."
"I don't know why you even need to ask," Kagome-sensei said. "We just watched those Akatsuki stinkers kill the Hokage and make Leaf pay for it. They're not going to stop at a little torture and murder when the stakes are high. Heck, those lunatics would probably do it just for fun if they could get away with it."
This time, Kei and Snowflake's combined glare could have frozen the air hard enough to create an air dome without any seals.
"What? What did I say?"
Hazō sighed once more. "Kei, Snowflake, not now, please."
"Stupendously insensitive though Kagome's comments may be," Kei said coolly, "I am inclined to concur with their essence. While there is a non-negligible possibility that Akatsuki will choose not to risk the stability of AMITY with further aggression against Leaf–their saner members must be aware that they have pushed their mandate to the breaking point–the stakes are simply too high as both parties' rift research surely grows closer to completion. Besides, said saner members are clearly not in a position to fully restrain the rest.
"Our loved ones may possess information regarding our activities, locations, and further plans, or may have indirectly noticed hints of which they themselves are as yet unaware. Furthermore, as you say, their abduction may serve to compel our return, and with multiple hostages available, it would be… only rational to torture one to apply proper pressure and make the point clear."
She hesitated. "Hazō, you have considered the possibility that others outside the immediate family are likewise vulnerable? You and I may be aware of the relative feebleness of our bonds with the others we have sworn to lead and protect, but Akatsuki may not be, or may believe that they will possess sufficient weight in aggregate. There is a vast and unbridgeable gap between the clan head who surrenders their seat before departing on a mission from which they do not expect to return, as Kani Mukan did, and one who abandons their people even in the knowledge that they are about to be placed in danger–much less when they are the indirect cause of that danger."
"I know," Hazō said. "It's not like I had a choice, Kei."
"I did not intend to imply otherwise," Kei said quickly. "My point is public perception, both insofar as Akatsuki may expect you to feel this way and act accordingly and insofar as it will be an obstacle to face in the event of a triumphant return. I very much fear that the populace at large, oblivious to the apocalyptic nature of the Akatsuki threat and seeing only that the missing-nin have bribed our way into Leaf a second time, will not be inclined towards acceptance and forgiveness.
"But that is a problem for a future it feels radically optimistic to even hope for. Our discussion pertains to the dispiriting present."
"Right," Hazō agreed uncertainly. "The fact is, though, that a mass extraction isn't realistic. First off, these people are generally going to be more loyal to the Will of Fire than to us. It only takes one to refuse to go missing and go to the authorities. Naruto being forced to act before the family can exfiltrate would be a catastrophe. Secondly, the more people are involved, the harder it will be to maintain stealth. Mari is an expert at getting out when a mission's gone to hell, but even she can only work so many miracles. Reo can't even use skywalkers.
"I know you feel responsible for the ex-KEI ninja, Kei, but this time round, we're going to have to count on our ex-Coordinator Hokage to do what we can to protect them, and hope that it's enough. Maybe he'll put them under ANBU watch, or into safehouses or something."
Kei bowed her head. "It is not as if I can deny anything you say. I have considered the same arguments and more during my hours standing guard against the Hyenas, a dozen terrible futures contesting over my imagination. But… I hate it, Hazō. What has it all been for, if I cannot even protect those in my care–worse, if my actions place them in danger they did not consent to?"
Silence. What more was there to say? Even Kagome-sensei had to imagine the possibility of Honoka being taken. Or if not, Hazō would choose to come back in his shark before pointing it out.
"We can stretch as far as Tenten and Fujisawa, at least," Hazō said. "Shikamaru is as untouchable as anyone in Leaf short of the Hokage–"
"For all that's worth," Kagome-sensei added bitterly.
Kei closed her eyes. After a few seconds, she opened them again.
"I am losing my patience. Kagome, do you recall what we discussed the other night?"
"Which part?"
"Your comment logically implies that, as Akatsuki are both able and willing to murder the Hokage without consequences, they will also be both able and willing to murder Shikamaru should they judge it desirable. This is plausible, and as an observation, it could even be of value in a hypothetical scenario where we needed to evaluate Shikamaru's safety. However, everyone present is already aware that Akatsuki could murder my husband and best friend at any time. The reminder is both unnecessary and hurtful."
"Oh," Kagome-sensei said, crestfallen. "I'm an idiot. A great big stinking idiot. I'm so sorry, Kei."
"Supposing," Kei went on, "that Akatsuki feel any restraint whatsoever, they will balk at abducting or otherwise taking extreme hostile action against the head of Leaf's most important clan. The same cannot be said of Tenten or Miyuki, KEI ninja whose disappearance would have only a limited impact on Leaf's military capability, and less still on its politics. I wish to believe that, as Hazō observes, the Eighth will feel some special responsibility for the vulnerable minority to whom he once swore additional oaths, and perhaps even some nepotistic concern for a close friend's lovers. However, if a choice must ever be made between those particular shinobi and Leaf's continued survival, I am unable to believe that he would not make the rational decision.
"With that in mind, yes, I wish to extract those two as soon as possible, or at least to offer them the option. Tenten has already once refused to compromise her principles in order to be with me, and Miyuki is a true believer in the Will of Fire in a way that we are not and never can be. Still, at worst, neither of them will take steps to prevent the rest of the family's escape."
"Good," Hazō said. "We can do that. Mari can easily get them messages–off the top of my head, don't Yuno and Fujisawa hang out all the time?–and for now, they're going to be under much less scrutiny than the others. With her guidance, they should have no problem slipping away with no one the wiser."
"They are likely to be interrogated sooner or later once it emerges that I have betrayed the village," Kei noted. "However, the Hokage is aware that actually receiving actionable information would be a disaster, so it is likely that he will avoid deploying the Yamanaka, and ideally delay questioning until any potential information is no longer actionable–a gap allowing for successful exfiltration."
"I'll leave composing the messages to you," Hazō said. "Not that Mari can't be convincing, but if we have to persuade them that this is the right course of action to begin with, then it has to be someone they know and trust.
"Now, since we seem to have a consensus, on to practicalities. Any objections to letting Mari take point on exfiltration and contact us via Noburi once they're safely out?"
"None."
"None."
"I mean, how else were we going to do it?"
"Pretty much," Hazō said. "We are stupidly lucky to have Mari, and always have been."
Kei gave him a look loaded with an essay's worth of meaning. Hazō had time to read the introduction, discussing how they'd only ever needed Mari's skills because she kidnapped them from their families and dragged them to the Swamp of Death, before he decided to leave thinking about it for another time.
"We can set up a dead drop for Noburi, so if Akatsuki are opening our mail, they'll think we're on the move like we're supposed to be and don't have time to chat. I'm thinking some innocent, non-runic sealing notes for the main body. That's plausible if we're afraid of dying en route and all that value being lost, and hopefully, if Itachi looks at it, he'll recognise that it doesn't look like rift research."
"Itachi is a veteran shadow clone user," Snowflake pointed out, "and he knows about Noburi. The notion of multi-threaded research would hardly be unimaginable to him. Besides, in what way do you expect this evidence to affect his actions? He will not choose to retract his call for your return so lightly, nor will it allay his suspicions when he learns that you would rather go missing than report for interrogation."
"Fine," Hazō said. "It probably won't accomplish anything. But it also doesn't cost me anything–copying out a bunch of notes is hardly a big strain when I have a ton of shadow clones."
Snowflake's eyes narrowed. "Yes, of course. Why not create and destroy a few unique divergent perspectives for the purpose of trivial manual labour that you expect to accomplish nothing?"
"...On second thought, it would be safer to use the Iron Nerve anyway," Hazō said. "Can't risk copying errors when someone might use those notes for research some day." He had carefully avoided stepping into that trap array so far, and this was no time to change his mind.
"Anyway," he said, "the real purpose of the notes is so I can throw in some seals to help with the exfiltration–darkness domes, extra skywalkers, and so on. It must suck for the Gōketsu to have to spend months with both of their elite sealmasters gone."
"I hope the kids are getting on fine," Kagome-sensei muttered. "Noburi would tell us if there'd been any estate-melting sealing failures, right?"
"Of course he would," Hazō reassured him. Probably. Unless he decided that bad news Hazō couldn't do anything about would just distract him from his research.
Sage's ballsack, Hazō could totally see Mari telling Noburi to filter the news like that. Leaf might be a snake-filled crater right now, or the Hagoromo might have started a gay revolution for Naruto to have to violently put down, or Mari might have decided to experiment with the economy after all, or…
"I assume this will also be our opportunity to instruct Mari to exfiltrate?" Kei asked.
"...Right." Hazō forced his mind back onto more tractable problems. "I'll send her a letter telling her what to do to prepare for my return–gather documents and reports, make sure the right clanspeople are available for me to catch up with, notify all the business partners who I owe meetings, all that–and ask her to check with Ishikawa-sensei about Honoka's progress at the Academy, for Kagome-sensei's peace of mind."
"This is code for 'go missing ASAP, with no further contact until you have left the Fire Country," Kei explained to Kagome-sensei. "We are all aware that you trust Ishikawa's judgement as much as you would trust a Hyūga to keep his Byakugan deactivated while alone in the Gōketsu vault."
"The stinker said she had hereditary ageometria," Kagome-sensei spat. "Maybe if he'd ever explained why the interior angles add up to 180 degrees, or–"
"A monster," Kei agreed. "In the unlikely event that the opportunity ever arises, I will personally see to his doom now that he has served his purpose."
"Finally," Hazō said, "I have a thought about the hostage situation. You're right that we can't guarantee Akatsuki won't pick someone to be a hostage, no matter who we exfiltrate. The only way to protect ourselves from that for sure is to use the ultimate shinobi defence."
"Don't be there," the other three recited.
"If Akatsuki can't contact us, they can't coerce us, even with all the hostages in the world. That means we have to isolate ourselves from Seventh Path communication, which is their only means of reaching us when they don't know our location."
"Viable," Kei agreed. "I am currently far from the Pangolin heartlands where most of my contractors are located, and Pantsā has no interest in undermining my military utility by forcing me to attend to extraneous matters on the Human Path, much less casting me into Akatsuki's jaws. I am confident that the ruthlessly-organised Pangolin military can filter or sever communications at will."
"I don't spend much time with my spiders anyway," Kagome-sensei said. "I tend to creep them out. They say it's not natural how my organs are all on the outside of my exoskeleton, and the little ones always ask me what happened to the rest of my legs. They mean well, I know, but it does get tiring after a while."
"Can you put something more reliable than that in place?" Hazō asked.
"I suggest only permitting contact at a restricted list of locations," Kei said, "known to the clan boss and those individuals who are absolutely necessary for your function as a summoner and can be trusted, in the boss's opinion, to keep an oath of non-communication. I do not mean in terms of intent, since a properly-formed oath is absolute on the Seventh Path, but in terms of competence."
"I foresee a difficulty," Snowflake said. "For the deterrent to be effective, Akatsuki must know that taking hostages will accomplish nothing, as opposed to learning this only after they have abducted various victims and then found that they cannot communicate the fact to us."
"Right," Hazō said. "That's something our summon clans will need to make known. That does open them up to coercion, but I feel like having a furious clan boss between me and Akatsuki, as opposed to just one who's doing me a favour, is more of a win than a loss."
"There is no 'win' here," Kei said quietly. "Even with the most effective countermeasures, if Akatsuki decide to abduct the people in our care and torture them for information, or on general principles, we will be powerless to stop them. This is… damage mitigation. Until we can reverse the course of the world, until our momentum overpowers human nature itself, everything we ever do will only be damage mitigation."
"I know that," Hazō said. "But we're about to slay the world's greatest monsters and become the heroes who saved it from an age of tyranny. Then, as an encore, we'll conquer the afterlife and bring back the dead. Kei, you are about to see Uplift gather a hell of a lot of momentum."
-o-
You have received 4 + 1 (Brevity) + 1 (Fun-to-write) = 6 XP.
-o-
Hazō privately prayed to Lord Jashin. Apparently, the dead leopards were not sufficient for him to receive any tangible sign of the deity(?)'s attention, unless cutting his finger during weapons maintenance counts.
Snowflake performed the Nara ninjutsu tests in private, explaining that if Hazō, in learning more about how they worked, inadvertently discovered a Nara clan secret, or worse, a hard counter to a Nara clan secret (e.g. if Nara ninjutsu were unusable in the vicinity of a darkness dome), Kei would be obliged to report this to Shikamaru, and then things would get complicated for all concerned. In the event, she found that the techniques she knew either did not interact with the seal (because they did not rely on environmental shadows) or had a weak synergy (because the domes blocked the Nara user's line of sight to the target as normal).
Snowflake's eyes narrowed. "Yes, of course. Why not create and destroy a few unique divergent perspectives for the purpose of trivial manual labour that you expect to accomplish nothing?"
Hazō privately prayed to Lord Jashin. Apparently, the dead leopards were not sufficient for him to receive any tangible sign of the deity(?)'s attention, unless cutting his finger during weapons maintenance counts.
My understanding is that it is understood that your teammates will pick up the basic mechanics of how your techniques work as they battle alongside you. Would Kei be obligated to report Gōketsu-Nara seal-technique interactions to the Nara that get discovered in combat?
Seeing as how Snowflake has herself ranted about the slavish obedience shadow clones have to their creators, it's clear that there's no parallel and shadow clone is a categorically different spell than Zorian's simulacron. Even setting aside the impossibility of shadow clones lasting that long.
Snowflake is a separate entity to Kei because Kei possesses a bloodline that massively affects her cognition. Hazō does not and will never have a bloodline that effects his mind similarly.
"Itachi is a veteran shadow clone user," Snowflake pointed out, "and he knows about Noburi. The notion of multi-threaded research would hardly be unimaginable to him.
I'm not too worried about this part personally - sealing research doesn't actually need chakra for the SCs and Itachi doesn't know Hazou knows Primordial Sealing, or that it needs a lot of chakra to perform. He has no real reason to expect the researching part to need Noburi, I think his first thought would more likely be about SC training if he thinks about it at all. More likely IMO he just views Noburi as yet more leverage on Hazou like the others.
Seeing as how Snowflake has herself ranted about the slavish obedience shadow clones have to their creators, it's clear that there's no parallel and shadow clone is a categorically different spell than Zorian's simulacron. Even setting aside the impossibility of shadow clones lasting that long.
Snowflake is a separate entity to Kei because Kei possesses a bloodline that massively affects her cognition. Hazō does not and will never have a bloodline that effects his mind similarly.
I'm not as convinced that having to follow Prime's orders necessarily means that their thoughts can't diverge in other ways but it does seem like an obstacle.
"Itachi is a veteran shadow clone user," Snowflake pointed out, "and he knows about Noburi. The notion of multi-threaded research would hardly be unimaginable to him. Besides, in what way do you expect this evidence to affect his actions? He will not choose to retract his call for your return so lightly, nor will it allay his suspicions when he learns that you would rather go missing than report for interrogation."
Wait, Itachi is primarily a technique hacker, and AFAIK it's impossible for a shadow clone to do TH projects. He's also a sealsmith, iirc, but I doubt he's done many sealing research, if at all. I really doubt he'd probably make this connection