I get the feeling this conversation has been hashed out before, but to summarize my POV: The fire cave was a tier above Hazou's level of combat; we should be aiming lower for level-appropriate challenges Hazou can face right now without getting Severes.
We don't get to choose our combats. We can try, but ultimately it's not up to us. I don't think this strategy of dumping all our XP into PS is feasible. We need to essentially set 2k XP on fire to get PS from 26 to 51, where it starts increasing again. To say nothing of the pyramid supports we need. We don't have 2k XP to spend. Get it to 26 and focus on other stuff.
Sir Stompy is absolutely correct here.
  • Daizen was forced upon us. Hazou would not have beaten him if Jashin didn't interfere and drop a lava tube on him.
  • Hazou was too slow to get away from the Neck ninja and had to fight them instead. If the QMs had been a fraction less generous in who they aimed at after Hazou got injured immediately, he would've left in a storage seal rather than with a Medium. Did we absolutely have to be in Neck? Maybe not, but it isn't out of the question that we will need Hazou specifically for his tracking summons again. Indeed, Asuma left a note that Hazou would probably be needed to hunt down the Isan survivors. What's worse (better?) about this is that this is a mission only like 6 people can even know about, so Hazou pretty much has to go if Shikamaru deems it necessary, there's not really anyone else to take his place.
  • Hazou had to fight the Hyenas or abandon the Dogs to die. That escort mission was absolutely critical to the Conclave succeeding. Once again, if the QMs were harsher about who aimed at Hazou after he took a Medium, he would've just died instead. The poor pack leader deliberately drew attention away from Hazou and died for it because Hazou couldn't defend himself.
  • It was of great importance that Hazou and Kagome visit the Archaeopteryx Island, and fortunately we did only encounter a single, weak Archaeopteryx that only did some stress rather than a Consequence. If there was more than one, and/or if Kagome weren't present to win the Alertness ambush check, it could have gone much worse.
  • The fire cave was yet another situation that happened suddenly and unexpectedly. Hazou did meaningfully help in several of the fights, including against the Daizen shade. It is entirely possible that without Hazou's presence, the team would've been too slow or weak to have reached Yuuma in time. But he was too weak to leave the encounter unscathed, literally scraping inches from death and getting his ass bailed out by Jashin again.
I'm genuinely wondering how many more times he needs to nearly die for people to consider raising his ability to not die. "If we just never enter a scenario that doesn't favor us, we won't need to invest in survival skills," is really not a compelling argument IMO. We don't have total control over the bullshit expected of Hazou. We've been saying this for years, just keep Hazou in Leaf, lighthouse and do nothing. And now adding onto that, "we will just only get stagnancy combats that favor us." It literally never works out that way.
 
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[X] Action Plan: Brief Naruto on Necromancy Options, Discuss Oro with Advisors
Word Count: (to be reduced)
  • Sanity-check with Mari/Kei.
  • Naruto:
    • Turn over Sasori's price.
      • Work with Kagome/Kei to pick the least-useful seals (that Sasori will accept).
    • Lay out the facts about Necromancy (Rift details, chakra drain, Seance, ect)
      • We've reinvented a lost sealing art known only to the Sage.
        • Request SC for Kagome to help us further our research.
    • We're currently racing the Akatsuki on who can resurrect high-value targets first.
      • Their goal is Pain, ours are Jiraya/Minato/Sartobi (and Akane). We both eventually want total control of the afterlife/resurrection.
      • For a Goketsu moonshot plan, we could resurrect Pain ourselves, and leverage the resulting life-debt to control the Akatsuki. (don't say this without advisor approval)
    • Options:
      • Move the rift, taking it for ourselves.
        • Hope the Akatsuki think it closed naturally, or we swap it wits a dangerous/useless rift.
        • We can then finish the necromancy project securely and discreetly, without opposition.
      • Close the rift permanently.
        • Faster and easier, but a tragic waste.
      • Assassinate Sasori.
        • Give him a valuable Necromancy-synergistic seal with hidden traps.
          • Issue: if Sasori dies, the Akatsuki probably just kidnap Hazou.
      • Attack them while they're delving the Rift.
        • If we kill their rearguard and secure the site with primordial sealing, we can wipe out their chakraless expedition when it returns.
          • Guarantees the destruction of either Leaf or AMITY
          • We'd need a way to monitor the rift site without Essies noticing.
          • Even with Boss Rush, it's a risky fight to pick
    • Akatsuki may also return to interrogate Hazou to make sure he isn't doing any more dimensionalism. We could:
      • Attempt to circumvent it by having Hazou unavailable.
      • Work fast and hope they don't do it.
      • ???
    • We might need to share Lithosealing with Orochimaru.
      • Run Naruto through the same risk/reward profile we discussed with Asuma, see if Naruto still approves it.
  • Orochimaru planning meeting (Mari/Kei)
    • We'll need to reveal lithosealing to Orochimaru eventually, due to the dragon war. While we're scared of the doomsday risk of empowering him further, we're considering selling it to him now, rather than having him force it out of us in a month or two or discover it independently.
      • What are your thoughts, in general?
      • If we do this, how should we conduct the meeting?
        • Is having Tsunade/Naruto looming behind us helpful or unhelpful?
        • Is involving Kabotu helpful or unhelpful?
      • What should we ask for? what will/wont Orochimaru be willing to give?
        • Personal training
        • Forbidden lore, for real this time, he has to share first.
        • A jutsu for making sealing substrate.
        • Cure for wandering wits, or broader toolkit / reference for central nervous system maintenance
        • Sterilization or other surgery-related utilitarian seals
        • [any other goodies players want to ask about.] (ping me)
        • Can either of you think of any options we missed?
  • Misc:
    • Cannai: Could you convince Kumafuwafuwa to help fight the Dragons?
    • Kei: Pandā is in Dog; could he be double-assigned as Shark ambassador and work through Dog?
      • Ask Cannai to make sure this is OK with him.
    • Noburi: we really don't want Yuno to register as a Jashinist. Can you talk her out of it? Would it be helpful or harmful for us to Order her not to?
    • Team YOUTH: You're welcome to continue delving, and Noburi will support you if you wish. BUT the tower has enough crystal at this time, and would support your return at present.
    • Tell Mari/Gaku to start doing all the Gemstone-sale things, if they haven't already.
 
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I don't believe Hazou in-game years to level PS optimally alongside his combat stats given the threats we face
Bruh, how long do you think it takes to get 2000 XP? About 1 year at current rates. Which are heavily discounted by notes XP.

That's about ~1.5 years of 100% of our XP being spent on something that does nothing.

Let alone what @Shrooms just said.

I'm sorry you don't like it, but it doesn't change that dumping 100% of XP into PS is more likely to get Hazou killed. Not less.
 
It's going to take us nearly a year just to get through our short term goals, let alone beyond that.
 
Bruh, how long do you think it takes to get 2000 XP? About 1 year at current rates. Which are heavily discounted by notes XP.

That's about ~1.5 years of 100% of our XP being spent on something that does nothing.

Let alone what @Shrooms just said.

I'm sorry you don't like it, but it doesn't change that dumping 100% of XP into PS is more likely to get Hazou killed. Not less.
We should get 12 XP/day average with full FOOM iirc. The 1.8k XP required is thus 150 days, which is 5 months, not a year as you stipulate.

Luckily so, because with so many doomsday clocks ticking we could not afford to waste an entire year levelling Athletics to 59 and doing not much else. And we would have to unlock barriers to level it anyways, just as many as for effective PS invoke + prep rolls of 81+ and Sealing ones of 125+ because the Ath 59 Deceit 30 PS 20 plan costs the same amount of XP.

But we can spend 5 months to get base PS 31 and Sealing 59 which will let us reach those numbers and also provide a support for Athletics in the process, which we could then raise cheaply 37 -> 59 after that for 1067 XP more, or 89 XP days. We can even squeeze in Substitution 20 -> 40 in there, for 610 XP more, or 51 days. This would give us +32 Evasion, or around 11 Shifts of Stress vs almost everything, enough to turn a oneshot into no harm at all.

So, to recap, we can have dual invoke + prep rolls of PS 81+, Sealing 125+ and gain +32 Evasion, all within not a year - but 290 days (9.7 months). With summoning this positions us into quasi S-rank status at just 18k XP.
 
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I'm genuinely wondering how many more times he needs to nearly die for people to consider raising his ability to not die. "If we just never enter a scenario that doesn't favor us, we won't need to invest in survival skills," is really not a compelling argument IMO. We don't have total control over the bullshit expected of Hazou. We've been saying this for years, just keep Hazou in Leaf, lighthouse and do nothing. And now adding onto that, "we will just only get stagnancy combats that favor us." It literally never works out that way.
Bruh, how long do you think it takes to get 2000 XP? About 1 year at current rates. Which are heavily discounted by notes XP.

That's about ~1.5 years of 100% of our XP being spent on something that does nothing.

Let alone what @Shrooms just said.

I'm sorry you don't like it, but it doesn't change that dumping 100% of XP into PS is more likely to get Hazou killed. Not less.

From my point of view we are already in a dangerous scenario due to the rift race and leveling as @Crunbum described is our best bet to survive the fallout of that race, whatever results it may have. Even if it means a full in-game year spent on rune research it is still a cost Leaf has to pay as Hazou is the only person currently in Leaf who can use PS in the first place.

Honestly we could just punt this decision to the QM's IC if we have to by asking Naruto what he wants Hazou to do: focus solely on Rune-crafting with PS to get ahead of Akatsuki as much as possible or to maintain a healthy XP income ninja lifestyle to stay relatively more versatile.
 
Edits have been made to reduce word count (it was ~450!) and to convince Team YOUTH to continue harvesting, but with extra caution. faflec @Inferno Vulpix @RandomOTP @Shrooms @Sir Stompy @cog-nito Please be advised.
This is IV's protoplan, with details added in.

[X] Action Plan: Foxes and Snakes and Dead Men, Oh My!
Word Count: 335
  • Sanity-check: MK.
  • Naruto:
    • Surrender Sasori's price.
      • Choose (w/ sanity-checkers, Kagome) the least-useful seals Sasori will accept.
      • Hazou/Kagome, as senior sealmasters, have veto power.
    • Request SC for Kagome.
    • Dimensionalism:
      • Debrief Naruto.
      • If we do nothing, Pein will inevitably resurrect.
      • Our options: Move or close the rift permanently.
        • Both risk incurring Akatsuki's wrath AND require novel sealtech.
        • Moving it is probably harder but much more valuable if we can pull it off.
        • Alternatively, kill some/all the Akatsuki. Plausibly more difficult, but may be necessary regardless.
          • Without Sasori they cannot complete the research.
          • They travel in pairs - Eliminating each pair shrinks their S-ranker advantage.
          • Summoners pose additional danger due to reverse summoning - need to kill them before they do.
          • Orochimaru likely knows their weaknesses and should be consulted.
          • Given the Rift's static nature, we might be able to attack while they're exploring it: kill their rearguard and close the rift with them in it.
      • Akatsuki may also interrogate Hazou in case he's betrayed them. We can:
        • Make Hazou unavailable.
        • Work fast and hope they don't do it.
        • Have Orochimaru do the research instead.
      • Orochimaru's interests should align with ours here, but he may also want to monopolize the portal for his own immortality.
        • Between you and Tsunade, he may listen to reason.
    • Now that we've invented lithosealing, we intend to teach Orochimaru for the Dragonwar.
      • Run Naruto through the risk/reward profile we discussed with Asuma; does he approve?
  • Misc:
    • Cannai: Could you convince Kumafuwafuwa to help fight the Dragons?
    • Kei: Pandā is in Dog; could he be double-assigned as Shark ambassador and work through Dog?
      • Ask Cannai to make sure this is OK with him.
    • Yuno: Don't prohibit her from registering as a Jashinist, but require that she inform Hazou before she does.
      • If she does, start rumours that she's only doing it to give Leaf someone to point to when Hidan shows up claiming discrimination.
    • Team YOUTH: Please continue delving, but be extra-cautious and don't get hurt. Let us know if you need anything
 
I will actively vote against this. I am not comfortable with leaving Hazou's future build in Naruto's hands.

We regularly find ourselves in combat (either social or physical), and not usually of our own accord.

It wasn't too long ago that the Color Cabal were discussing kidnapping Hazou because of his chunnin rank/stats.

We need to improve our survivability, or Hazou will die.

I will vote against anything that tries to go against this.
 
I will actively vote against this. I am not comfortable with leaving Hazou's future build in Naruto's hands.

We regularly find ourselves in combat (either social or physical), and not usually of our own accord.

It wasn't too long ago that the Color Cabal were discussing kidnapping Hazou because of his chunnin rank/stats.

We need to improve our survivability, or Hazou will die.

I will vote against anything that tries to go against this.
Is this about @faflec 's plan? Have I failed reading comprehension?
 
Do you guys just like having severes all the time or...? Hazou HAS to fight or we will not accrue the XP to buy PS in the first place. 1800 XP is nearly 4 barriers to overcome, two more fire cave-tier fights that Hazou is more than likely getting smoked in with his current abilities. Severes are the GOOD outcome here, without a Jashin aide Hazou literally would've just died instead.
Sorry, I think there may be a miscommunication. Where is 1800XP coming from; it doesn't show up anywhere in the calculations that I've made for either the Balanced Build or the Full PS Build? Or are we talking about a completely different build from IV's original calculations post?
 
I'm confused... It looks like you're basing your estimates on the assumption that you will roll +6 on the Fate dice. Is that right?
You can just keep rerolling until you get a +6. Terribly wasteful of FP compared to invoking (unless your AB is 1 or 2). But you can do it


EDIT:
Sorry, I think there may be a miscommunication. Where is 1800XP coming from; it doesn't show up anywhere in the calculations that I've made for either the Balanced Build or the Full PS Build? Or are we talking about a completely different build from IV's original calculations post?
EDIT2:
1896 XP is the opportunity cost to take PS from 26 to 51. I think I tossed it out earlier today during the discussion.
See below post
 
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I'm confused... It looks like you're basing your estimates on the assumption that you will roll +6 on the Fate dice. Is that right?
Yes. The idea is to estimate a maximum feasible roll with the assumption of making two invokes and burning all our FP on rerolls. Other factors could still apply to increase it further, like say Oro's laboratory and personal assistance or veterancy bonuses, but they arent nearly as reliable.

Hence at Step 2 :
Prep Roll = 67 (+0 dice, no invokes)
Invoke + Prep Roll = 81+ (Burn FP to +6 dice, two invokes, maybe circumstantial boni hence the +)
 
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Sorry, I think there may be a miscommunication. Where is 1800XP coming from; it doesn't show up anywhere in the calculations that I've made for either the Balanced Build or the Full PS Build?
Maximizing PS score short term means leveling sealing to 59 and PS to 31, around 1850ish XP. (This would be the Balanced route, I think SS's numbers refer to the all in on PS route which gives bigger numbers long term)
 
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Request SC for Kagome.
EJ is on record stating that this will be a scene in and of itself. I'd like to ask after we've briefed Naruto on the Rift - we can emphasize that the work has been done almost exclusively by Kagome and that many of the key insights have been his, and then ask.

I'd like to go into more detail than simply 'ask for SC', too. This isn't a slam dunk. We need to actually prepare and provide an argument.
 
Maximizing PS score short term means leveling sealing to 59 and PS to 31, around 1850ish XP.
Oh I see, I'm just an idiot and can't read my own graphs.

Hm. Would you (and others in support of leveling non-Sealing related skills chime in too!) be averse to leveling PS to 26 (the first cutoff) first, and then correcting pyramids before continuing on with the PS/Sealing leveling style?
EJ is on record stating that this will be a scene in and of itself. I'd like to ask after we've briefed Naruto on the Rift - we can emphasize that the work has been done almost exclusively by Kagome and that many of the key insights have been his, and then ask.

I'd like to go into more detail than simply 'ask for SC', too. This isn't a slam dunk. We need to actually prepare and provide an argument.
Oh shit, did he? Alright, removed.
This is IV's protoplan, with details added in.

[X] Action Plan: Foxes and Snakes and Dead Men, Oh My!
Word Count: 331
  • Sanity-check: MK.
  • Naruto:
    • Surrender Sasori's price.
      • Choose (w/ sanity-checkers, Kagome) the least-useful seals Sasori will accept.
      • Hazou/Kagome, as senior sealmasters, have veto power.
    • Dimensionalism:
      • Debrief Naruto.
      • If we do nothing, Pein will inevitably resurrect.
      • Our options: Move or close the rift permanently.
        • Both risk incurring Akatsuki's wrath AND require novel sealtech.
        • Moving it is probably harder but much more valuable if we can pull it off.
        • Alternatively, kill some/all the Akatsuki. Plausibly more difficult, but may be necessary regardless.
          • Without Sasori they cannot complete the research.
          • They travel in pairs - Eliminating each pair shrinks their S-ranker advantage.
          • Summoners pose additional danger due to reverse summoning - need to kill them before they do.
          • Orochimaru likely knows their weaknesses and should be consulted.
          • Given the Rift's static nature, we might be able to attack while they're exploring it: kill their rearguard and close the rift with them in it.
      • Akatsuki may also interrogate Hazou in case he's betrayed them. We can:
        • Make Hazou unavailable.
        • Work fast and hope they don't do it.
        • Have Orochimaru do the research instead.
      • Orochimaru's interests should align with ours here, but he may also want to monopolize the portal for his own immortality.
        • Between you and Tsunade, he may listen to reason.
    • Now that we've invented lithosealing, we intend to teach Orochimaru for the Dragonwar.
      • Run Naruto through the risk/reward profile we discussed with Asuma; does he approve?
  • Misc:
    • Cannai: Could you convince Kumafuwafuwa to help fight the Dragons?
    • Kei: Pandā is in Dog; could he be double-assigned as Shark ambassador and work through Dog?
      • Ask Cannai to make sure this is OK with him.
    • Yuno: Don't prohibit her from registering as a Jashinist, but require that she inform Hazou before she does.
      • If she does, start rumours that she's only doing it to give Leaf someone to point to when Hidan shows up claiming discrimination.
    • Team YOUTH: Please continue delving, but be extra-cautious and don't get hurt. Let us know if you need anything
 
Maximizing PS score short term means leveling sealing to 59 and PS to 31, around 1850ish XP. (This would be the Balanced route, I think SS's numbers refer to the all in on PS route which gives bigger numbers long term)
Yup, Im not overly converned with long-term potential though once we are rolling 120s in Sealing and 80s in PS - those are S-rank numbers already and we cant delay Athletics 59 and Substitution 40 (the +32 Evasion boost) forever and have pressing concerns that require huge PS and Sealing asap, so we need to be XP efficient within the year. Way I see it, If we survive that long, we likely win anyway.
 
Hm. Would you (and others in support of leveling non-Sealing related skills chime in too!) be averse to leveling PS to 26 (the first cutoff) first, and then correcting pyramids before continuing on with the PS/Sealing leveling style?
~mostly yes.

My current preference is getting callig first and foremost - paper sealing is still useful bc it is mobile and we have veterancy/better score for it. Callig 47 gets us a new AB, another day of prep, etc. After that we can start buying PS into the 20s. We haven't tried literally any projects yet besides the easiest one so if we're not brickwalling at first I'd like to have the calligraphy first.

Here's where I break from this compromise a bit more:

PS 20 is only 6 points worse and gives a support for Deceit -> 30, Ath -> 43 for our next combat encounter. This can all be done within the next ~1k XP, when the encounter is due. Then once that encounter is over we'll have a whole nother 1k to go before our next one, so that is when I would prefer boosting to 26. So getting PS 26 within the next ~1300 XP instead of the next 1000, if that makes sense.
 
Oh I see, I'm just an idiot and can't read my own graphs.

Hm. Would you (and others in support of leveling non-Sealing related skills chime in too!) be averse to leveling PS to 26 (the first cutoff) first, and then correcting pyramids before continuing on with the PS/Sealing leveling style?

Oh shit, did he? Alright, removed.
I'd be largely fine with stopping PS at 26, yeah. Or even 20.
 
Hm. Would you (and others in support of leveling non-Sealing related skills chime in too!) be averse to leveling PS to 26 (the first cutoff) first, and then correcting pyramids before continuing on with the PS/Sealing leveling style?
PS 20 is only 6 points worse and gives a support for Deceit -> 30, Ath -> 43 for our next combat encounter. This can all be done within the next ~1k XP, when the encounter is due. Then once that encounter is over we'll have a whole nother 1k to go before our next one, so that is when I would prefer boosting to 26. So getting PS 26 within the next ~1300 XP instead of the next 1000, if that makes sense.
All of the this. Having RRBs for our next combat unstagnation would make it vastly safer. So my strong preference is to obtain those, unstagnate combat. Then focus on PS for a while and use that to break our 15500 XP barrier.
 
PS 20 is only 6 points worse and gives a support for Deceit -> 30, Ath -> 43 for our next combat encounter. This can all be done within the next ~1k XP, when the encounter is due. Then once that encounter is over we'll have a whole nother 1k to go before our next one, so that is when I would prefer boosting to 26. So getting PS 26 within the next ~1300 XP instead of the next 1000, if that makes sense.

I would be okay with this, and I would also be okay with leaving PS at 20.

Edit: basically Cari's take, yeah.
 
Would you (and others in support of leveling non-Sealing related skills chime in too!) be averse to leveling PS to 26 (the first cutoff) first, and then correcting pyramids before continuing on with the PS/Sealing leveling style?
I think thats a perfectly valid compromise - though I would ask that we use Substitution as a 30 support that Athletics 40+ would need at that point, rather than spending XP on boosting Deceit, as it gives us the most survivability in the short term.

Step 1 : PS 26
Step 2 : Athletics 39 --> Sub 30 -> Athletics 49
Step 3 : PS 31 & Sealing 59
Step 4 : Sub 40 -> Athletics 59

PS 20 supports Sub 30 supports Athletics 40
PS 30 supports Sub 40 supports Athletics 50

Step 2 addresses dire issues asap (+17 Evasion) but we would still max short term PS/Sealing reasonably fast, then finish the Athl/Sub route (+32 Evasion total), all while saving XP on supports.
 
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Hm. Would you (and others in support of leveling non-Sealing related skills chime in too!) be averse to leveling PS to 26 (the first cutoff) first, and then correcting pyramids before continuing on with the PS/Sealing leveling style?

If such leveling can also be done as we experiment with new yet basic designs, sure, as we cannot make accurate estimations of what PS will allow us to achieve until we have a better idea of runes' shinier new outputs:

Hazou really, truly does not know what runes are capable of, much less what he's capable of doing with runes. He'll need to experiment and see.

We are so close: just need an EJ update where Hazou plays with more shiny rocks so we can begin planning more accurately.
 
~mostly yes.

My current preference is getting callig first and foremost - paper sealing is still useful bc it is mobile and we have veterancy/better score for it. Callig 47 gets us a new AB, another day of prep, etc. After that we can start buying PS into the 20s. We haven't tried literally any projects yet besides the easiest one so if we're not brickwalling at first I'd like to have the calligraphy first.

Here's where I break from this compromise a bit more:

PS 20 is only 6 points worse and gives a support for Deceit -> 30, Ath -> 43 for our next combat encounter. This can all be done within the next ~1k XP, when the encounter is due. Then once that encounter is over we'll have a whole nother 1k to go before our next one, so that is when I would prefer boosting to 26. So getting PS 26 within the next ~1300 XP instead of the next 1000, if that makes sense.
Hm. Calligraphy 47 would cost us 225XP, and if we choose to go for PS 26 (another 646XP) we'll be over the stagnancy barrier by 117XP. If we chose to do PS + Calligraphy, we'd be 165XP below the stagnancy barrier.

Assuming we choose to level combat after these sequences of events, what would the goal be? As in, what would be sufficient to clear combat stagnancy barriers for you?
 
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