Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

Sir Stompy · Jan 8, 2024

Paperclipped said:
Hazō has received an order to prepare a briefing regarding dimensionalism and the rift, including to propose plans of varying levels of risk/reward. Naruto expects this briefing reasonably soon.

Alright let's talk the options as I see them

1: Do nothing, let Sasori reopen the Rift, and let Akatsuki resurrect Pain. Pain will choose what happens to the EN afterwards. None of the villages can resist him after being depleted from BotG/WW4

Lowest risk, lowest reward. Sacrifices the agency of Leaf in the following years.

2. Research a seal/rune that closes the Rift forever. Manage the aftermath from Akatsuki somehow. Optionally, move the bladehorror rift from Iron to cover the rift to the pure lands.

Moderately risky, moderate reward. We don't know what sensory bullshit we have to fool here. At least the Sharingan/Sasori's senses. It might be worth getting Orochimaru's help here. Since he would know better than we would how to fool Akatsuki.

3. My personal favorite, bet the fucking farm. Tell Oro everything, enlist his aid. The plan is to let Akatsuki open the Rift and then take it from them.

They'll have to split their numbers when exploring the Rift. That makes them vulnerable. With Tsunade, Naruto, Oro, and every Boss summon we can enlist, defeat their rearguard. Close the Rift (temporarily) until their advance force dies in the Pure Lands.

High risk, highest reward. We'll need to figure out when they plan to reopen the Rift. We'll need to prepare countermeasures for Akatsuki. We'll need to deal with the end of AMITY. We need to figure out how to keep Hazou's low Deceit from destroying this plan. Compartmentalize it somehow.

4. Not my cup of tea, but this was raised on Discord by @Lord Marshal . Try to cooperate with Akatsuki on the Rift.

Insane risk, medium reward (IMO) first we need not to get killed by Naruto for suggesting it, then we need to convince Akatsuki they need our help to open the rift (dubious at best). If that goes well we might get Akane back. They're not going to allow resurrections that jeprodize their supremacy. So no Jiraiya.

Left-Hand Mutant · Jan 8, 2024

Sir Stompy said:
Alright let's talk the options as I see them

1: Do nothing, let Sasori reopen the Rift, and let Akatsuki resurrect Pain. Pain will choose what happens to the EN afterwards. None of the villages can resist him after being depleted from BotG/WW4

Lowest risk, lowest reward. Sacrifices the agency of Leaf in the following years.

2. Research a seal/rune that closes the Rift forever. Manage the aftermath from Akatsuki somehow. Optionally, move the bladehorror rift from Iron to cover the rift to the pure lands.

Moderately risky, moderate reward. We don't know what sensory bullshit we have to fool here. At least the Sharingan/Sasori's senses. It might be worth getting Orochimaru's help here. Since he would know better than we would how to fool Akatsuki.

3. My personal favorite, bet the fucking farm. Tell Oro everything, enlist his aid. The plan is to let Akatsuki open the Rift and then take it from them.

They'll have to split their numbers when exploring the Rift. That makes them vulnerable. With Tsunade, Naruto, Oro, and every Boss summon we can enlist, defeat their rearguard. Close the Rift (temporarily) until their advance force dies in the Pure Lands.

High risk, highest reward. We'll need to figure out when they plan to reopen the Rift. We'll need to prepare countermeasures for Akatsuki. We'll need to deal with the end of AMITY. We need to figure out how to keep Hazou's low Deceit from destroying this plan. Compartmentalize it somehow.

4. Not my cup of tea, but this was raised on Discord by @Lord Marshal . Try to cooperate with Akatsuki on the Rift.

Insane risk, medium reward (IMO) first we need not to get killed by Naruto for suggesting it, then we need to convince Akatsuki they need our help to open the rift (dubious at best). If that goes well we might get Akane back. They're not going to allow resurrections that jeprodize their supremacy. So no Jiraiya.

Missing "steal the rift". it has ~all of the same risks as closing the rift, but much better upside.

Paperclipped · Jan 8, 2024

faflec said:
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped Why did River Country take a chunk out of Fire? Did their close alliance really go that sour after Hiruzen died?

eaglejarl said:
Rain took a chunk of Fire and then shuffled borders with its neighbors to avoid border gore. Everyone ended up with more land than they started with but Grass and Waterfalls each gave up a small chunk of what they had.

Specifically, Rain traded the land in the southwest of Fire, west of the large, bendy river, to River Country in exchange for the northmost strip of River, letting River expand for free while keeping Rain contiguous.

eaglejarl · Jan 8, 2024

Sir Stompy said:
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped

What does Hazou think about trapping the notes for one of the seals Jiraiya has made?

That is, giving Sasori a difficult, but very slightly misleading, set of research notes that cause devastating sealing failures.

Would Hazou need to have researched the seal himself to effectively trap it? Or does he think he can do so without researching it first?

Hazō thinks he could do it, though he thinks the trapping would be less likely to be discovered if he'd already researched the seal. That said, if Akatsuki happens to find out that Hazō tried to kill Sasori through trapped notes, Hazō thinks they would definitely kill him.

RandomOTP · Jan 8, 2024

eaglejarl said:
Hazō thinks he could do it, though he thinks the trapping would be less likely to be discovered if he'd already researched the seal. That said, if Akatsuki happens to find out that Hazō tried to kill Sasori through trapped notes, Hazō thinks they would definitely kill him.

Would Hazou's eldritch Out-insights help him to make such sealing traps that are less "conventional," and thus better hidden?

Dictator4Hire · Jan 8, 2024

Left-Hand Mutant said:
Missing "steal the rift". it has ~all of the same risks as closing the rift, but much better upside.

I support this course of action given what we know now, which, admittedly, isn't a lot but it has the highest upsides as you mentioned. Additionally, I'd like Hazou to experiment with air dome runes with an emphasis on how large and durable he can make them. If Hazou really is the best sealmaster in the Elemental Nations I would love to see him attempt to center a rune roughly on Otafuku Gai that protects a circle composing of the majority of Fire Country's land. If our characters believe it is necessary I'd also like for Hazou to look into taking another air dome rune and flipping it upside down so that it protects our country from underground incursions as well.

There are so many unknowns to contend with flipping the necromancy table on Akatsuki that I believe it may be necessary to plan for buying enough time to ensure that we can secure the rift before they can even after they are aware that we have broken our no-rift research agreement with them.

From my understanding air dome seals do not mess with space time anymore than other seals do, so I would prefer working with their rune equivalents rather than 5 seal barrier runes which do mess with space time. The less interference we have with large space time effects as we mess around with invading the afterlife the better.

Furthermore I believe our best chance is to go all in on runes defenses as Akatsuki has no idea what runes are really capable of since Hazou just invented runes. Akatsuki most likely has some number of undetected spies in Leaf and as S-rankers they all know the intricacies of inter-village surveillance. Our best bet to outwit them is not to play at their own game but to introduce yet another geopolitics-altering invention that they have no contingencies prepared for. Air dome runes are the best idea I can come up with for now but if anyone else has defensive rune ideas that would meaningfully protect Leaf from a new coalition of the remaining 4 Hidden Villages and Akatsuki for at least double the amount of research time it takes Hazou to create a new basic rune I would love to hear some new suggestions.

Rafin · Jan 8, 2024

eaglejarl said:
12 miles radius the first time. IIRC it was 9 miles radius after that.

Rain took a chunk of Fire and then shuffled borders with its neighbors to avoid border gore. Everyone ended up with more land than they started with but Grass and Waterfalls each gave up a small chunk of what they had.

It's quite interesting how nationalist ninja culture (and by extension capital city culture) is, to the point of having what seem to be deliberately incompatible religions (despite all being based on the same roots), but how this doesn't at all extend to the countryside and its inhabitants, who could as well be wandering resources. It makes sense though. Hidden Villages are like highly nationalist city-states that house all the upper nobility and warrior class, but outside of those walls (and other large population centers) its all iron age absentee feudalism.

faflec · Jan 8, 2024

This is IV's protoplan, with details added in.

[X] Action Plan: Foxes and Snakes and Dead Men, Oh My!
Word Count: <400

Sanity-check: MK.
Naruto:
- Surrender Sasori's price.
  - Choose (w/ sanity-checkers, Kagome) the least-useful seals Sasori will accept.
  - Hazou/Kagome, as senior sealmasters, have veto power in case of a tie.
  - Suggest we offer the RBs that Itachi stole when he took our seals (and make absolutely sure with MK and Naruto that it'll fly; we don't want a game over).
- Dimensionalism:
  - Debrief Naruto.
  - If we do nothing, we must assume Pain will resurrect.
  - Our options: Move or close the rift permanently.
    - Both risk incurring Akatsuki's wrath AND require novel sealtech.
    - Moving it is probably harder but much more valuable if we can pull it off.
    - Alternatively, kill some/all the Akatsuki. Plausibly more difficult, but may be necessary regardless.
      - Without Sasori they cannot complete the research.
      - They travel in pairs - Eliminating each pair shrinks their S-ranker advantage.
      - Summoners pose additional danger due to reverse summoning - need to kill them before they do.
      - Orochimaru likely knows their weaknesses and should be consulted.
      - Given the Rift's static nature, we might be able to attack while they're exploring it: kill their rearguard and close the rift with them in it.
  - Akatsuki may also interrogate Hazou in case he's disobeyed them. We can:
    - Make Hazou unavailable.
    - Work fast and hope they don't do it.
    - Have Orochimaru do the research instead.
  - Orochimaru's interests should align with ours here, but he may also want to monopolize the portal for his own immortality.
    - Between you and Tsunade, he may listen to reason.
- Now that we've invented lithosealing, we intend to teach Orochimaru for the Dragonwar.
  - Run Naruto through the risk/reward profile we discussed with Asuma; does he approve?
Misc:
- Cannai: Could you convince Kumafuwafuwa to help fight the Dragons?
- Kei: Pandā is in Dog; could he be double-assigned as Shark ambassador and work through Dog?
  - Ask Cannai to make sure this is OK with him.
- Yuno: Let Mari/Kei handle it.
- Team YOUTH: Please continue delving, but be extra-cautious and don't get hurt. Let us know if you need anything

RandomOTP · Jan 8, 2024

faflec said:
[X] Action Plan: Foxes and Snakes and Dead Men, Oh My!

Would you be willing to add something to the effect of "Send Orochimaru a missive, explaining that we've made significant progress in our shared goal, and await negotiations at his leisure. Work with Mari on the wording to avoid an angry Orochimaru."

_The_Bomb · Jan 8, 2024

We should hand over any jōnin-level seals unrelated to dimensionalism that Akatsuki already stole. Or, at least bring it up to Hazō's advisors.

eaglejarl · Jan 8, 2024

RandomOTP said:
Would Hazou's eldritch Out-insights help him to make such sealing traps that are less "conventional," and thus better hidden?

Yes, in a hypothetical roll to construct a concealed trap in research notes, Hazou would be able to use SSA and invoke "Out-Touched Sealing Genius" for an extra bonus.

Shrooms · Jan 8, 2024

Would this be a Sealing roll or a deceit roll 🤔

Inferno Vulpix · Jan 8, 2024

[X] Action Plan: Foxes and Snakes and Dead Men, Oh My!

RandomOTP said:
Would you be willing to add something to the effect of "Send Orochimaru a missive, explaining that we've made significant progress in our shared goal, and await negotiations at his leisure. Work with Mari on the wording to avoid an angry Orochimaru."

I oppose this, because I want to spend the entirety of the next cycle on conducting the whole trade, start to finish. We're going to want to optimize hard beforehand, using space that we don't really have in this plan, and I just know that "at Orochimaru's leisure" will translate to "this very second, since there is nothing else on this green earth that Orochimaru cares more about". I'm willing to make precommitments on the matter if you prefer, that conducting this trade is my highest priority after this meeting, but I want to do it right and that means dedicating a full plan to it instead of getting jumpscared because we sent the dominoes falling before our ducks were in a row.

(And besides, it should really be "and invite him to a demonstration". We'll want to be wowing him, I think, not priming him to strike a deal. That part comes once he's already nerdsniped.)

KaGoGoGadgetMe · Jan 8, 2024

So, if I'm reading the scale right, I think this is the rough size of the Elemental Nations, compared to a more familiar continent:

RandomOTP · Jan 8, 2024

Inferno Vulpix said:
I'm willing to make precommitments on the matter if you prefer, that conducting this trade is my highest priority after this meeting, but I want to do it right and that means dedicating a full plan to it instead of getting jumpscared because we sent the dominoes falling before our ducks were in a row.

If you're willing, then yeah, and I'll reprioritize my vote accordingly.

[X] Action Plan: Foxes and Snakes and Dead Men, Oh My!

Inferno Vulpix · Jan 8, 2024

RandomOTP said:
If you're willing, then yeah, and I'll reprioritize my vote accordingly.

[X] Action Plan: Foxes and Snakes and Dead Men, Oh My!

Well, I better not just leave it at "I would be willing to make a precommitment" then. I hereby swear to make the lithosealing trade with Orochimaru my highest priority after this Naruto meeting is concluded, provided it would not be treason to do so[1] and that no highly urgent matter[2] requires our significant attention[3] lest we face significant consequences[4]. I hope those stipulations aren't displeasing - I can attest that I do not expect such a scenario to happen - but with this I feel content saying I will absolutely adhere to these terms.

[1] i.e. Naruto forbids the deal during the upcoming meeting
[2] must be completed within a day
[3] needs the bulk of a plan dedicated to resolving it
[4] comparable in tragedy to no less than a moderate consequence on a player character with high confidence

RandomOTP · Jan 8, 2024

Inferno Vulpix said:
Well, I better not just leave it at "I would be willing to make a precommitment" then. I hereby swear to make the lithosealing trade with Orochimaru my highest priority after this Naruto meeting is concluded, provided it would not be treason to do so[1] and that no highly urgent matter[2] requires our significant attention[3] lest we face significant consequences[4]. I hope those stipulations aren't displeasing - I can attest that I do not expect such a scenario to happen - but with this I feel content saying I will absolutely adhere to these terms.

[1] i.e. Naruto forbids the deal during the upcoming meeting
[2] must be completed within a day
[3] needs the bulk of a plan dedicated to resolving it
[4] comparable in tragedy to no less than a moderate consequence on a player character with high confidence

Sounds good to me, the blood pact is sealed

Paperclipped · Jan 8, 2024

KaGoGoGadgetMe said:
So, if I'm reading the scale right, I think this is the rough size of the Elemental Nations, compared to a more familiar continent:

I think this overexaggerates how small the EN is. I lined up the scales:

And this is what it looks like:

RandomOTP · Jan 8, 2024

Insert standard "USA is giant" joke

OliWhail · Jan 8, 2024

KaGoGoGadgetMe said:
So, if I'm reading the scale right, I think this is the rough size of the Elemental Nations, compared to a more familiar continent:

Listen, the original worldbuilding was never, like

Good

About geography.

(e.g. As Paper noted re: how rivers were flowing)

Heleor · Jan 8, 2024

If we're asking Cannai for something we may as well ask him to chat to Kumafuwafuwa at the same time.

faflec · Jan 8, 2024

Heleor said:
If we're asking Cannai for something we may as well ask him to chat to Kumafuwafuwa at the same time.

Oh yeah, should do that as well.

faflec said:
This is IV's protoplan, with details added in.

[X] Action Plan: Foxes and Snakes and Dead Men, Oh My!
Word Count: ???

Sanity-check with Mari/Kei.

Naruto:

Turn over Sasori's price.

Discuss amongst sanity-checkers the least-useful seals (that Sasori will accept).

Hazou and Kagome, as senior sealmasters, have veto power if it comes down to a tie.

Request SC for Kagome.

We must assume that Pain will resurrect if we do nothing.

To prevent this, we can move the rift and take it for ourselves, or we can close the rift permanently (or kill all of Akatsuki? Somehow?).

Both risk incurring Akatsuki's wrath, and both require novel sealtech. Moving it is probably harder but much more valuable if we can pull it off.

Akatsuki may also return to interrogate Hazou to make sure he isn't doing any more dimensionalism. We can:

Attempt to circumvent it by having Hazou unavailable.

Work fast and hope they don't do it.

Have Orochimaru do the research instead.

Orochimaru's interests should align with ours here, so he will probably be willing to help, but he may also want to monopolize the portal for his own immortality.

Between you and Tsunade, he may listen to reason.

Now that we've invented lithosealing, we intend to teach it to Orochimaru for the sake of the Dragonwar.

Run Naruto through the same risk/reward profile we discussed with Asuma, see if Naruto still approves it.

Misc:

Cannai: Could you convince Kumafuwafuwa to help fight the Dragons?

Kei: Pandā is in Dog; could he be double-assigned as Shark ambassador and work through Dog?

Ask Cannai to make sure this is OK with him.

Yuno: Don't prohibit her from registering as a Jashinist, but require that she inform Hazou before she does.

If she does, start rumours that she's only doing it to give Leaf someone to point to when Hidan shows up claiming discrimination.

Team YOUTH: You're welcome to continue delving, and we will support you if you wish. BUT we have enough crystal at this time, and would support your return at present.

RandomOTP · Jan 8, 2024

[Jk] Spend some time with Cannai, mutually complaining about the Conclave

Shrooms · Jan 8, 2024

faflec said:
(or kill all of Akatsuki? Somehow?)

I understand your personal skepticism of this approach but if this is going to be included I don't really want to essentially half-ass it as a suggestion, especially when Hazou is the weapons/get stuff killed guy who just got Kakuzu minced, and Naruto is probably going to want to know if he does have any ideas. But OTOH a bonafide 'kill Akatsuki' brainstorming sesh would probably take all of the word count of a plan... Still, I would prefer to do more than a half-hearted question if it's actually going to be included in the plan at all.

Would prefer something like this:

We must assume that Pain will resurrect if we do nothing.
To prevent this, we can move the rift and take it for ourselves, or we can close the rift permanently.
- Both risk incurring Akatsuki's wrath, and both require novel sealtech. Moving it is probably harder but much more valuable if we can pull it off.
- Alternatively, kill some or all of the Akatsuki. Plausibly more difficult than sneaking past them to steal or close the Rift, but doing so may lead to conflict regardless.
  - Without Sasori they cannot complete the research.
  - Without Deidara they cannot as easily level Leaf.
  - They travel in pairs - should two be ambushed and eliminated, their numbers advantage against Leaf's S-Rankers shrinks.
  - Summoners would need to be lethally wounded or poisoned by Orochimaru so they cannot reverse summon and warn the others.
  - Orochimaru likely knows their weaknesses, if any, and probably should be consulted if a serious battle strategy is pursued.

faflec · Jan 8, 2024

Shrooms said:
I understand your personal skepticism of this approach but if this is going to be included I don't really want to essentially half-ass it as a suggestion, especially when Hazou is the weapons/get stuff killed guy who just got Kakuzu minced, and Naruto is probably going to want to know if he does have any ideas. But OTOH a bonafide 'kill Akatsuki' brainstorming sesh would probably take all of the word count of a plan... Still, I would prefer to do more than a half-hearted question if it's actually going to be included in the plan at all.

Would prefer something like this:

We must assume that Pain will resurrect if we do nothing.

To prevent this, we can move the rift and take it for ourselves, or we can close the rift permanently.

Both risk incurring Akatsuki's wrath, and both require novel sealtech. Moving it is probably harder but much more valuable if we can pull it off.

Alternatively, kill some or all of the Akatsuki. Plausibly more difficult than sneaking past them to steal or close the Rift, but doing so may lead to conflict regardless.

Without Sasori they cannot complete the research.

Without Deidara they cannot as easily level Leaf.

They travel in pairs - should two be ambushed and eliminated, their numbers advantage against Leaf's S-Rankers shrinks.

Summoners would need to be lethally wounded or poisoned by Orochimaru so they cannot reverse summon and warn the others.

Orochimaru likely knows their weaknesses, if any, and probably should be consulted if a serious battle strategy is pursued.

Done.

faflec said:
This is IV's protoplan, with details added in.

[X] Action Plan: Foxes and Snakes and Dead Men, Oh My!
Word Count: ???

Sanity-check with Mari/Kei.

Naruto:

Turn over Sasori's price.

Discuss amongst sanity-checkers the least-useful seals (that Sasori will accept).

Hazou and Kagome, as senior sealmasters, have veto power if it comes down to a tie.

Request SC for Kagome.

We must assume that Pain will resurrect if we do nothing.

We can move the rift, taking it for ourselves; or close the rift permanently.

Both risk incurring Akatsuki's wrath, and both require novel sealtech. Moving it is probably harder but much more valuable if we can pull it off.

Alternatively, kill some or all of the Akatsuki. Plausibly more difficult, but our other options may lead to conflict regardless.

Without Sasori they cannot complete the research.

Without Deidara they cannot as easily level Leaf.

They travel in pairs - should two be ambushed and eliminated, their numbers advantage against Leaf's S-Rankers shrinks.

Summoners would need to be lethally wounded or poisoned by Orochimaru so they cannot reverse summon and warn the others.

Orochimaru likely knows their weaknesses, if any, and probably should be consulted if a serious battle strategy is pursued.

Akatsuki may also return to interrogate Hazou to make sure he isn't doing any more dimensionalism. We can:

Attempt to circumvent it by having Hazou unavailable.

Work fast and hope they don't do it.

Have Orochimaru do the research instead.

Orochimaru's interests should align with ours here, so he will probably be willing to help, but he may also want to monopolize the portal for his own immortality.

Between you and Tsunade, he may listen to reason.

Now that we've invented lithosealing, we intend to teach it to Orochimaru for the sake of the Dragonwar.

Run Naruto through the same risk/reward profile we discussed with Asuma, see if Naruto still approves it.

Misc:

Cannai: Could you convince Kumafuwafuwa to help fight the Dragons?

Kei: Pandā is in Dog; could he be double-assigned as Shark ambassador and work through Dog?

Ask Cannai to make sure this is OK with him.

Yuno: Don't prohibit her from registering as a Jashinist, but require that she inform Hazou before she does.

If she does, start rumours that she's only doing it to give Leaf someone to point to when Hidan shows up claiming discrimination.

Team YOUTH: You're welcome to continue delving, and we will support you if you wish. BUT we have enough crystal at this time, and would support your return at present.

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

^_^