- Location
- Pacific standard
[X] Training Plan Hazou: No
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
-
- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Why is this? Pyramid won't support it?
- Pronouns
- He/Him
If you raise ES first, you have one less 30 and thus need one less 20.
It's only an additional 20 to raise Sealing first, but presence will take about 8 days and sub about twice that
- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Same, nonlinear time should always be avoided if possible
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm tapped out for this cycle, but I would like to spend a plan getting Noburi clearance to leave (we're now 4 months out from when Asuma said he wanted us to wait 3-6 months.)
I'd also like a plan talking to Tsunade for a few different things. For one, giving her the originals of the Sannin notes if she'd like to distribute copies/keep the old ones for sentimentality. For another, talking about bloodlines. She's not homicidally obsessed like Oro is but I think it's been established she is also interested. If she was willing to study the IN and share any discoveries with us that could be cool and also free respect stonks for aunt sunny. Also, obtaining the original version of her textbook for Noburi would be nice. Could also arrange for Naruto to be there by the excuse of letting him look at the Jiraiya/Oro notes with Tsunade for sentimentality since he's also Jiraiya's heir, and then get him jebaited into being a medic
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
I'm definitely down for that kinda thing with Tsunade!I'm tapped out for this cycle, but I would like to spend a plan getting Noburi clearance to leave (we're now 4 months out from when Asuma said he wanted us to wait 3-6 months.)
I'd also like a plan talking to Tsunade for a few different things. For one, giving her the originals of the Sannin notes if she'd like to distribute copies/keep the old ones for sentimentality. For another, talking about bloodlines. She's not homicidally obsessed like Oro is but I think it's been established she is also interested. If she was willing to study the IN and share any discoveries with us that could be cool and also free respect stonks for aunt sunny. Also, obtaining the original version of her textbook for Noburi would be nice. Could also arrange for Naruto to be there by the excuse of letting him look at the Jiraiya/Oro notes with Tsunade for sentimentality since he's also Jiraiya's heir, and then get him jebaited into being a medic
- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I would be down for this as well. Also I would like contacting someone about teaching Reo technique hacking. I want to find out if we have a loot box from the Oro/Hiruzen notes we have
I think 16 days is a fine price to pay for finishing seals faster, but I understand how some might disagree
PSA: Slightly Opening the Box on Seal Research
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
PSA: Slightly Opening the Box on Seal Research
Every seal has three relevant numbers:
- A Calligraphy TN (how hard it is to draw)
- A Sealing TN, called the Infusion TN (how hard it is to make research progress)
- A Complexity (how much progress needs to be made)
The Calligraphy TN is usually about ⅔ of the seal's TN but will sometimes be higher or lower.
The Complexity is usually equal to the seal's TN. This number expresses how many shifts of progress you need to make in order to complete research on the seal. You make progress when you make an infusion roll and roll higher than the TN. This works exactly like any other roll; every 3 points (round up) that you beat the TN by is 1 shift of progress, so if you roll (e.g.) a 50 against a seal with a TN of 45 then you make 2 shifts of progress ((50 - 45)/3 = 5/3, rounded up = 2 shifts).
Veterancy
We use our best judgment as to which seals supply veterancy bonuses and we will not answer questions about which ones those are, mostly because this whole process is enough of a pain to keep track of and we don't want to have to litigate our choices. Hazō will make in-character decisions about what seals to use for veterancy. You may specify in plans what seals to use as reference at your own risk.
Veterancy follows a couple guidelines.
- For TNs (Infusion/Calligraphy):
- All related seals are considered.
- Each relevant seal slightly lowers the TN, typically by 0-5 points.
- If there are multiple relevant seals, they provide diminishing benefits.
- For Complexity:
- Only one seal, the most similar one, is considered.
- Veterancy can reduce Complexity by up to 95%.
- The reduction is based on how much can be carried over from the original design.
- Examples:
- Hazō has learned one of Jiraiya's seals (TN 80, Complexity 80). He wants to tweak it slightly so it has a brief activation delay. He has only one related seal, so the TN only drops slightly. It is a tiny change compared to the reference seal, so the Complexity drops a lot. He does sealing research against (TN 78, Complexity 10).
- Kagome is inventing a brand-new type of explosive (TN 60, Complexity 60). He has a lot of veterancy in explosives, so the TN drops a lot. He has no reference seals that are close to the new effect, so the Complexity is unchanged. He does sealing research against (TN 50, Complexity 60).
- Spend N days on prep, where N is the Aspect Bonus for his effective Sealing. Each day spent on prep gives +2 to the Calligraphy and Sealing rolls.
- Spend 1 day doing the infusion.
- Roll Calligraphy vs Calligraphy TN. This is pass/fail.
- Roll (Sealing + (2 x prep days) + SSA bonus) vs seal's TN
- If both rolls were successful, calculate shifts of progress and subtract from remaining Complexity
- Spend 2 days recovering from the Mild Consequence inflicted by Summoning Scroll Acolyte
- Repeat
Examples
Seal has TN 45, Calligraphy 30, Complexity 45.
Hazō has: Sealing 58, Calligraphy 40 (includes Iron Nerve), SSA bonus 22, max prep days 9 (with SSA) or 6 (without)
Note: The amount of prep time that Hazō can do is based on his effective Sealing. That means that, in the above example, if he's using SSA then he has an effective Sealing of 58+22=80 and can take 9 days of prep, getting a +18 bonus on his rolls. If he did not use SSA then he would have an effective Sealing of 58 and could only do 6 days of prep, getting a +12 bonus on his rolls.
If Hazō wants to research safely then he will take the maximum prep time (his Sealing Aspect Bonus days, each of which gives +2) and will use SSA (Summoning Scroll Acolyte), the stunt which gives him a huge bonus to his Sealing skill at the cost of inflicting a 2-day Consequence on him afterwards.
- Hazō spends 12 days on a research cycle (9 prep, 1 infuse, 2 recover)
- Calligraphy roll: 40 + 18 (prep) + 3 (dice) = 61. Pass!
- Sealing roll: 58 + 22 (SSA) + 18 (prep) + 0 (dice) = 98. Pass!
- 98 - 45 = 53, 53/3 = 17.6 -> 18 shifts of progress on the seal.
- 45 - 18 = 27 shifts remaining. Assuming the same rolls, he will finish the seal in 2 more cycles, meaning 24 more days, meaning 36 days total.
- Hazō uses SSA but no prep (0 prep days, 1 infuse day, 2 recover days).
- Calligraphy roll: 40 + 0 (dice) = 40. Pass!
- Sealing roll: 58 + 22 (SSA) + 0 (dice) = 80. Pass!
- 80 - 45 = 35, 35/3 = 11.6 -> 12 shifts of progress on the seal.
- 45 - 12 = 33 shifts remaining. Assuming the same rolls, he will finish the seal in 3 more cycles, or 9 more days for 12 days total.
- Hazō doesn't use SSA, no prep (0 prep, 1 infuse, 0 recover).
- Calligraphy roll: 40 + 0 (dice) = 40. Pass!
- Sealing roll: 58 + 0 (dice) = 58. Pass!
- 58 - 45 = 13, 13/3 = 4.3 -> 5 shifts of progress on the seal.
- 45 - 5 = 40 shifts remaining. Assuming the same rolls, he will finish the seal in 8 more cycles, or 8 more days for 9 days total.
Key takeaways:
- The seal's TN is the infusion TN.
- This is the number to beat in order to make research progress.
- Failing this roll causes a sealing failure with unpredictable results.
- Every 3 points (round up) that you beat this number by is 1 shift of progress
- The seal's Calligraphy TN is often around ⅔ of the infusion TN.
- This is the number to beat in order to not auto-fail the infusion roll.
- The complexity is usually equal to the infusion TN.
- This is the number of shifts of progress you need to make in order to learn the seal.
- Veterancy helps substantially with these projects. Ideally, you have lots of prior work on very similar seals.
- You will never be told any of the numbers involved, so please don't ask.
- It is dangerous to do so, but skipping prep and not using SSA is almost always a faster way to complete a seal if you are capable of doing it without those things.
- If Hazō has reference research notes for the seal, or has done at least one day of prep, he will be able to roughly judge the objective difficulty of the seal. We'll try to remember to volunteer the information, but if we don't then feel free to ping us. The answer will be one of the following:
- "Trivial": TN <= 20s.
- "Genin-level": TN 10s-40s.
- "Chūnin-level": TN 30s-60s.
- "Jōnin-level": TN 50s-80s.
- "Jiraiya": TN >= 70s.
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- Location
- UK
You listed the same seal three times.
- Location
- United States
Thank you! I've wanted to know these guidelines for so long.
[O] Action Plan: Spend the next 30 days on prep for each of the 30 most recent seals we have discussed in order to estimate their TNs and plan future seal research in a productive manner, and bump up Hazou's calligraphy skill as the biggest limiter on the safety of sealing research (up to somewhere even a -12 won't fail).
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
So... Could we get word on how hard Chakdar v2 and (the first of) Minato's seals are?
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
I just made a spreadsheet to calculate and visualize our sealing speed based on the mechanics described above.
tl;dr it looks like SSA + Prep is only faster than raw SSA if the project is so fiendishly difficult that we expect to spend over three months on the project either way.
tl;dr it looks like SSA + Prep is only faster than raw SSA if the project is so fiendishly difficult that we expect to spend over three months on the project either way.
- Location
- Pacific standard
Hazō, suddenly:
"Huh, turns out being cautious when sealing and doing maximum prep is a total waste of time, phew! Onwards to efficiency!"
Gōketsu, collectively: <.< >.>
Caldera: Yummy!
Though I guess that's just for speed, which Hazō could definitely know in character. "Oh, yeah. Kagome told me about that. Sealmasters that realize they can do the same project in a month or six and fail to realize they'll die within two weeks instead. Sealing prep doesn't make you faster, it decreases how likely you are to turn into a 0%;irrrrd
Edit: also, I wonder if there's a sweet spot of only a couple prep days for a given TN for a given effective sealing
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- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
Yeah, it pretty much works out like that. There are TNs where no-prep is faster on average but can hit a sealing failure if we get a very bad roll.
- If it's safe to do a seal without prep then it's always faster to do it without prep.
- If it's possible at all to do without prep, it's completely safe to do with prep.
- There are some TNs that can be either done slowly with zero risk or quickly with some risk. Right now, I'd say that's about the 36-46 TN range. So, essentially, any proper chuunin-grade seal faces this dilemma to some degree or another.
- Location
- Italy
I'd also like a plan talking to Tsunade for a few different things. For one, giving her the originals of the Sannin notes if she'd like to distribute copies/keep the old ones for sentimentality. For another, talking about bloodlines. She's not homicidally obsessed like Oro is but I think it's been established she is also interested. If she was willing to study the IN and share any discoveries with us that could be cool and also free respect stonks for aunt sunny. Also, obtaining the original version of her textbook for Noburi would be nice. Could also arrange for Naruto to be there by the excuse of letting him look at the Jiraiya/Oro notes with Tsunade for sentimentality since he's also Jiraiya's heir, and then get him jebaited into being a medic
I like the idea, but i would like to note that Oro's notes are one of the few chips we have that we could use to obtain TH lootboxes, so giving those away for free would make it impossible to trade them with other people(Like the Sarutobi or Naruto, for example).
Regarding Tsunade studying the IN, she will probably be pissed about it, because she has people to save in the hospital and we're wasting her time on a personal project to know more about ourselves, so we'll need enough payment to make it worth her time.
The textbook, honestly we could probably just ask, and promise to let everyone in Goketsu/ KEI/ group of people study it, she would probably respect the fact we're trying to share the knowledge, maybe offer something to make it worth her time, because with Tsunade you're always fighting against the bad impression that you're wasting her time.
- Location
- London
- Pronouns
- He/Him/They/Them
Do we have any examples (e.g. in the Minato set, or something we saw in Isan) where the Calligraphy TN is way higher than the Infusion TN?
Presumably if we pass as reference invalid seals, it will increase the corresponding TN's, yeah? Or will it, like, increase the severity of rolls on the failure table if a failure is invoked? Or maybe both?
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
TNs are not sometime Hazō had access to.
We haven't discussed it in that level of detail. Yes, those might be things we did. At the very least, you would be losing out on the possible TN reduction.
- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I'm def on team calligraphy now, but don't think the team is very large
- Location
- London
- Pronouns
- He/Him/They/Them
Right, yeah, but we have access to understanding of the relative difficulty of Calligraphy and Infusion for the seals we are studying? Or no, we only have an understanding of the general, overall "challenge involved in a given seal"?
I would have thought Hazou would be able to say, essentially, "this seal will be very hard to draw, given how easy it seems to be to research".
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Tsunade is already having trouble convincing people to be medics so I'm unconvinced the medical notes will be worth much to other people
Mmm I was just suggesting we offer it, if she's not interested that's fine.
- Location
- Italy
IIRC it's not that Tsunade is having trouble convincing people to be medics, but that:
-The Tower prioritizes combat to medical(Something that Asuma even notes wasn't really the smartest idea in the collapse)
-Medicine, much like sealmastery, is something clanless had access only in name, especially genins
-Tsunade has a pretty high standard of who can and cannot be a medic.
-Ninja want to fight on the frontlines for cultural reasons.
But i'll be honest, i don't think it matters? The point isn't that the Sarutobi are all medics, but that it will strongly empower their medic-nins, and XP is the most rare and important currency in the ninja world.
I'm pretty sure the medic-nin are/were majority Clan, and while people don't have spreadsheet vision, but also aren't stupid: an XP lootbox is by definition something extremely valuable and Asuma(the current Clan head) would realize that, therefore i don't see how a sizable amount of free XP for his medic-nin would be not worth much? It's like Sealing XP, sure, the majority of the clan won't use it, but it's still an extremely powerful asset for the Clan sealmaster(And every major clan has sealmasters).
EDIT: Finally, we have both medical and sealing notes,and that, together, is XP to three different skills(and to two different specialists: Sealmasters and medic-nin). It's a pretty big asset, as our "Let's make all the Goketsu sealmasters/medics" ideas show.
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