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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Personally, the reason I play things conservatively is that I enjoy the quest regardless of how many "interesting" things we do, and I see a lot of proposed-interesting things as risking Hazou's life or status unnecessarily. If Hazou dies, that's the quest over. I don't want that, because I enjoy the quest and the people in it. On the other hand, I actively don't-enjoy things that lower Hazou's status whether among his peers or internationally. Just kinda feels crappy. This is also why I generally encourage asking Jiraiya/Team Uplift before doing things; they're used to Hazou's quirks.

If your enjoyment of the quest is contingent only upon doing things that you deem interesting that others see as unnecessarily risky, that seems like a bit of double bind.
 
Rafin said:
Awesome like skywalkers or awesome like buying a youthsuit?

What I would really like is one honest, non-memey explanation why this would be a good idea from an in-story perspective. Because till now it always seems like every explanation any of you give is either "we (the players) want to Zabuza with Zabuza for more Zabuza in our Zabuza" or thinly veiled justifications that clearly are just there to give a pretense and don't even try to convince any player that doesn't already believe in the former.

All I can hope is that Keiko and Noburi are not crazy and that Hazou won't go over his team mates head with this. Luckily the plans say to go over everything with them and I don't expect @Velorien to read it in a strict sense of "go over everything, but then execute regardless of their approval because the plan doesn't say to stop if someone says stop".
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Personally, I find that a large chunk of my reasoning for inviting Zabuza is closure. Despite the fact that we know he's non-hostile right now, it was just a thing that was suddenly true, and the context in which it happened was a show for all the civilians, so we don't even know what Zabuza thinks of the whole adventure.

If we invite him to game night and talk with him a bit, I think we can hear what he thinks about us, whether or not he's still frustrated about us slipping away, how easily he'll let go of past grudges, etc. Not in as many words, of course, but I do think we'll be able to learn from this and put a more graceful ending to our years of fear than 'he's suddenly dead' was.

[x] Training Hazou: Do Not Cancel Empathy Drip
 
Veedrac said:
For Zabuza, there are a bunch of positive payoffs. Eg: it's balsy, in the kind of ninja way that's good for PR; it's a significant progressive emotional step for the team; it's a high level connection with Mist of the sort that could plausibly link to power; it's the kind of thing that would appease Ami. The risks seem both minor and like the kind of risks that Jiraiya would catch, or that would lead to a veto by Noburi or Keiko.
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Well said.

Not going to lie, just hanging out with Zabuza being fun OOC is definitely a reason I voted for it.

But there are also IC ones like us officially burying the hatchet in person and not just by proxy via the Leaf-Mist alliance.

Zabuza also strikes me as a Punch Clock Villain type of character (and Villain only in the sense that he was opposing us) so hanging out with him could give us some more information on the character and be a future path communication path to Orochimaru.

And finally, there is something poetic about finally closing the chapter about our missing-nin status:

We started the quest as missing-nin, alienated from our family and chased by Zabuza.

After a long arc we are officially no longer missing-nin, Keiko/Hazou/Noburi all reconciled with their closest family person from Mist (a reason I also appreciate keeping Hana/Hazou time in the plan) and we would be making peace with Zabuza.

Really hard to pass up on that.
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
If we invite him to game night and talk with him a bit, I think we can hear what he thinks about us, whether or not he's still frustrated about us slipping away, how easily he'll let go of past grudges, etc.
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Zabuza's built up his entire life as the ideal hunter-nin. Whose job is to hunt ninjas. Jiraiya's said that this is the core of his very being, to the point that even his aura wouldn't do shit to him.

To Zabuza, we are the hunted-nin, but we escaped him and are now functionally out of his reach, possibly permanently. That stain on his record, especially given that we were a team of mostly Genin (his thought-words), should give you a pretty good idea of how much he dislikes us.
 
@Inferno Vulpix Closure for Team Uplift? Because I don't know how much of a chance Hazou will have to gain any closure providing info while he is DMing for I don't know how many ninja, many of which must first be introduced to the concept of board games, one of which is Ami.

And the section where we meet with Zabuza in order to invite him doesn't have any mention of trying to gauge his opinion of us in any meaningful way. Or at least the plans I saw didn't have that when I last saw them.
 
[x] Training Hazou: Do Not Cancel Empathy Drip

Just because we successfully pulled this one stunt off doesn't mean that it isn't a glaring hole in our playstyle that we need to fix.
 
faflec said:
Zabuza's built up his entire life as the ideal hunter-nin. Whose job is to hunt ninjas. Jiraiya's said that this is the core of his very being, to the point that even his aura wouldn't do shit to him.

To Zabuza, we are the hunted-nin, but we escaped him and are now functionally out of his reach, possibly permanently. That stain on his record, especially given that we were a team of mostly Genin (his thought-words), should give you a pretty good idea of how much he dislikes us.
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YMMV, but I interpretated Zabuza as seeing us more as worthy opponents than people beneath him. He seems to have enjoyed the hunt until he tripped and fell on snow to fake his death:

Velorien said:
But the true puzzle, and the one he had yet to solve, was the extraordinary obliteration of the campsite proper. Gaping craters had wiped any and all evidence from the face of the earth, as if Inoue had managed to find the legendary ninjutsu scroll of Madara's Minute Meteors. But assuming that she had not learned how to magically make rocks rain down from the heavens, only to disappear without a trace… The mysterious sealmaster's threat rating rose another notch.

The Cold Stone Killers had a skilled sealmaster creating new seals for them. They had the means to completely obliterate a wide area, and the cunning to do so as a means of information control. And even though his hunter's intuition was certain they had only just departed, their powers of concealment were so great that they had seemingly left no tracks at all upon the soil. If it hadn't been for the conspicuous recent deforestation in the surrounding area, he'd have been left with no clues at all.

The Demon of the Hidden Mist gave a broad, toothy smile. This was going to be even more fun than he had anticipated.
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faflec said:
Zabuza's built up his entire life as the ideal hunter-nin. Whose job is to hunt ninjas. Jiraiya's said that this is the core of his very being, to the point that even his aura wouldn't do shit to him.

To Zabuza, we are the hunted-nin, but we escaped him and are now functionally out of his reach, possibly permanently. That stain on his record, especially given that we were a team of mostly Genin (his thought-words), should give you a pretty good idea of how much he dislikes us.
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Sure, and if we talk to Zabuza and he exhibits that attitude, then at least we know that. The thing I'm trying to dispel is the state where Team Uplift don't know what Zabuza thinks of them, since there's still a range of possibilities from the perspective of someone without deep knowledge of his personality. Maybe the fact that we're no longer missing-nin means Zabuza doesn't harbor any ill will for us getting away, etc.
Rafin said:
@Inferno Vulpix Closure for Team Uplift? Because I don't know how much of a chance Hazou will have to gain any closure providing info while he is DMing for I don't know how many ninja, many of which must first be introduced to the concept of board games, one of which is Ami.

And the section where we meet with Zabuza in order to invite him doesn't have any mention of trying to gauge his opinion of us in any meaningful way. Or at least the plans I saw didn't have that when I last saw them.
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It's not about asking him direct questions for him to answer, it's about seeing how he behaves and interacts in general. If he shoots us a glare every now and then, well, there's a grudge. If he studiously avoids more contact with us than he needs to, he might be upset but being sure to keep it in check. If he interacts more amicably, then it's possible he isn't holding a grudge.

And if he slams the door in our face when we ask, that's prooobably a sign he's not happy with us. Either way, we can gain insight onto Zabuza's opinion of us.
 
[x] Training Hazou: Cancel Empathy Drip

AFAICT the above never actually was implemented.

I see no reason to make the spreadsheet stuff more complicated. We already had one big error that accidentally arose from the Pangolin Conditioning XP to the tune of "Everyone actually has 21 more XP." No need to introduce other sources of error instead of just throwing in a dozen XP for a new level of Empathy every now and then.
 
For those in favor of the Empathy Drip: why not just put a level in right now? I mean, Hazou's been put in a lot of social situations recently...
 
Eh, as long as we have someone who can demonstrably fight Zabu-san on an even keel (Gai possibly, Kakashi possibly, Jiraiya) with us when we visit him I have little issue with going to say hi. I'm not gonna vote for it, because I don't actually find it that interesting or productive, but it's not likely to go south in that situation.
 
I'm against inviting the Z-bomb.

Jiraiya was caught totally off balance by Zabuzas presence. He restrained himself, but that was a very telling gut-reaction to his peers (broadcasting killing intent). I'd rather not push for others to get an opportunity to get more of a read on the situation.

And unlike the genin we interacted with, the stakes, the personal history, rivalries, would be something we'd have to consider here and not just with leaf.

And lets not forget the fact that there will be chaos aka Ami. There's much to account for here, imo.
 
faflec said:
Alright then. I kinda disagree with some of the benefits you posit re: Zabuza, but I do agree that the Hana section is rather sparse and otherwise suboptimal.

What would you suggest as additions to that part of the plan, then? I am more than willing to add them if they seem reasonable.
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I'm not sure, and it depends what your goals are. Something to signal 'the disagreement isn't resolved but the subject is being avoided' would mitigate some of the issues, but were it me I'd just drop the section.

I disagree wrt. your model of Zabuza (I view him as more of a motivated mercenary), but your position is understandable.
 
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Veedrac said:
Eg: it's balsy, in the kind of ninja way that's good for PR; it's a significant progressive emotional step for the team; it's a high level connection with Mist of the sort that could plausibly link to power; it's the kind of thing that would appease Ami. The risks seem both minor and like the kind of risks that Jiraiya would catch, or that would lead to a veto by Noburi or Keiko.
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I don't think any of those arguments are enough to convince me, even all at once. I know that I am probably biased due to that thing humans do where they stick to the opinions and solutions they already hold and continue opposing the "opposite side", but I don't think it is only that. Point for point:
  • I can't think of an example where another high status ninja did anything remotely similar and got praised for it.
  • I don't believe Keiko and Noburi also see it that way, though that's not a concern since we are asking them. But I also don't see it this way and Hazou depends on the player base anyway.
  • I don't expect Zabuza to become actual friends with any Leaf ninja during this event, be it Goketsu or otherwise. There is a significant risk of him having a negative impression of someone present and neutral impressions don't lead to connections to power. Also, Zabuza has been characterized as not into politics in his interludes.
  • I don't see the need of appeasing Ami. At least not right now and at risk of our own well being or that of others we care about. She's on good terms with Keiko and I believe that Hazou's opinion of her is that she is alluring but exhausting and unpleasant to be around for too long. An opinion I share.
@Tua I am not categorically opposed to a meeting with Zabuza. Maybe at a more normal gathering. But I think many people are underestimating just what kind of setting the planned game night will be. We are putting multiple soon to be chūnin and jōnin that don't trust each other and remember fighting each other (not just during the tournament) in the same room and expose everyone but the Leaf ninja (who by the way outnumber everyone else by a considerable margin) to a completely novel situation. And we have Hazou of all people as the one trying to manage them all. At best he has help from Keiko and Noburi. Managing jōnin. And Ami.
What I'm saying is that this is already a highly volatile situation. Putting Zabuza in the mix and hoping that everything will go as planned in a way that leads to actual closure happening between Zabuza and Uplift is pretty damn optimistic. The best case scenario I can imagine happening if Zabuza actually shows up is that he participates in the games, wins a few of them and leaves politely at the end.

faflec said:
For those in favor of the Empathy Drip: why not just put a level in right now? I mean, Hazou's been put in a lot of social situations recently...
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I'll vote for it if it gets traction.
 
Oh wow. Vecht's plan doesn't even ask Keiko for optimization, on any of the points. Yeah no. Wouldn't vote for that even if I were convinced that Zabuza is the best thing since sliced skywalker seals.
 
Minor addition to ensure we bring sufficient protection when meeting with Zabuza.
faflec said:
Added a brief section to my plan stating to run things through with the Goketsu (if not already done).


Also:

[X] The Kurosawa Blood (now with extra Zabuza!)

Word Count: 298
  • Discuss the plan with Jiraiya, Noburi, and Keiko (unless already done).
  • Lunch with Shin.
    • Guidelines:
      • Observe OPSEC, stay alert, avoid hard commitments.
      • Be confident. Shin isn't a jounin.
      • He is a silver-tongued viper. Keep your cool. Respond to taunts/manipulations with dry amusement.
    • Start the interaction amicably.
      • Minor flexing: casually name-drop Ami for the regulars' menu. Mention your promotion, ask about his.
    • Elaborate on your offer/intentions:
      • Cooperation was our motto all exam. We're here to build bridges.
      • We're also offering an enormous boost to his career here.
      • (As a callback, order a bottle of Kurohige's Revenge and glasses (shallow pours, save the rest).)
    • Invite him to game night.
  • Go see Hana again.
    • No fighting, spend some nice time with your mom.
    • Confide about the Ami debacle. Avoid details that might breach OPSEC.
      • How do you deal with people like that?
      • The hell is with that Jonin aura crap anyway? It sucks.
    • Give her the biggest of bear hugs.
    • Invite her to game night.
  • Invite Zabuza to game night.
    • Stop by the Momochi residence, with adequate protection.
      • ...or maybe just send a messenger.
    • Reasoning:
      • Zabuza is a man who symbolizes the epitome of ninja culture. He is nothing if not a brutal, efficient killer, free of remorse or guilt or compassion, a willing tool of death and destruction. He has no reason at all to care for our ideals, and likely thinks little more of the alliance with Leaf.
      • But ultimately, if we are to succeed in our goals, we'll have to deal with those like him, and what better a place to start? When will we ever have an opportunity like this again? We will extend him an invitation to game night, and take one tiny step towards lasting peace and prosperity through fellowship and glorious munchkinry.
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faflec said:
...so you wish to advocate complete cutting off of the two?

Is there something that I'm missing?
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I do actually, mostly by hopefully-never-being-in-the-same-area, rather than trying to convince Hazou to do it IC. (or rather, I'm happy to maintain correspondence, I just don't want her interacting with Hazou in-person)

Inferno Vulpix said:
Despite the fact that we know he's non-hostile right now, it was just a thing that was suddenly true, and the context in which it happened was a show for all the civilians, so we don't even know what Zabuza thinks of the whole adventure.
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Wait, we do? Was there an interlude that I missed where he expressed his thoughts on our team? Or is this a general 'Mist is not hostile' thing?

@faflec mentioning Ami's favour to Jirayia makes sense to me, even if he doesn't end up needing it. It reinforces our commitment to rescuing Naruto etc.

But then we don't have to do this in this update, so if you think putting that into the non-zabuza plan may lose votes, please do not do it :p
 
Rafin said:
Oh wow. Vecht's plan doesn't even ask Keiko for optimization, on any of the points. Yeah no. Wouldn't vote for that even if I were convinced that Zabuza is the best thing since sliced skywalker seals.
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You understand this is the sort of conservative, hard-line stance that becomes annoying to deal with en masse in thread discussion? Just pointing it out.

I'm not terribly motivated to exert effort to try to convince someone who I note repeatedly holds these sorts of stances, for example.
 
Anderkent said:
Wait, we do? Was there an interlude that I missed where he expressed his thoughts on our team? Or is this a general 'Mist is not hostile' thing?
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It's a general 'Mist is not hostile' thing, and the fact that he gave Keiko her medal without attacking. It's clear that as a loyal Mist-nin he's not trying to kill us, but we still don't know what Zabuza personally feels about the situation.
 
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