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"GAAAAAHHHH! Stopitstopitstopitstopitstopitstopit stop licking me!!!" Shino screamed, flailing and dancing in place.

"Thank you for screaming instead of surrendering."

"I sur—"

A flick of chakra armed the explosive tag. A quick set of handseals and the words "Pangolin Clan Technique: Pantokrator's Hammer!" gave her strength and power. Thousands of hours of skill connected the hand to the kunai to a line that led straight through Aburame's left foot to the dirt. The blade pinned him in place for the sliver of time until the explosive detonated and lifted him three inches in the air. He hit the ground and dropped like a sack of meat, screaming and clutching his testicles.

I am filled with complicated negative emotions. Let's try unpacking them:

Shino tried to surrender. Keiko didn't let him. She had already won the fight but decided to maim her opponent. She made it look like she was trying to make a point along the lines of "Don't mess with the Goketsu", legitimizing her actions with Shino not surrendering before the fight I guess.

But she didn't actually want him to surrender before the fight. She knew he wouldn't; because it would make Shino look bad if he surredered the finals because he got threatened by his opponent.
She explicitely wanted to make Shino feel a significant amount of pain.

Now, I can sympathise with wanting to cause pain to someone who has caused you pain. It might not always be a good thing to do, but I can understand the feeling.

But Shino didn't actually do anyting to Keiko (I think?). Rather it feels to me like Keiko was angry at Hazou/Shikamaru and therefore emotionally felt in the right to fuck up some unrelated stranger [insert 'are we the baddies' meme here].

Then again, these are ninja with a different perception of physical violence. And they were engaged in a mock fight-to-the-death.
Still, what Keiko did is quite a contrast to how Choji handled his win against Hinata.

I feel that it wouldn't be unusual for Shino and/or his friends/family to develop a bit of a grudge.
Bad relations with the Aburame might influence wether or not Jiraiya keeps the hat.
A formal apology may be appropriate.
 
Alright, here's the plan again, and I highlighted every Keiko mention that doesn't make sense if she's out of reach.

I'm pretty busy until this afternoon, though, so I'll only start looking to make changes then.
Reposting the plan once again, if anyone has anything to say about it let me know.

Word Count: 296
[X] Action Plan: Reasonable Handling of New Information.
  • Show the letter to Jiraiya. Help him find a clean shirt. In the process, quickly confirm conclusions:
    • Letter #1 was deliberately leaked through a compromised courier. Implication: Courier #2 wasn't compromised.
    • Letter #2 leaves us an opportunity to go along with the marriage (if it wasn't leaked), and signals that Ami'll drop it if we won't
    • Letter #1 was pretty aggressive: likely signals that she strongly prefers the former option. Testing Courier #1 was secondary.
    • If we run out of time, cover these later.
  • Tell Keiko and Noburi about the second letter. Pre-empt their concerns, this one's good news.
    • Let them voice their opinions.
    • Carefully ask Keiko's thoughts on the potential second meeting.
      • Ask permission to potentially talk about her with Ami.
    • Finally get Noburi's full opinion on the situation.
  • Do something calming and rote to relax a little, like making explosives.
  • Help Keiko plan for her upcoming fight.
  • Once Jiraiya returns, discuss the situation (include Noburi and Keiko; high-OPSEC conditions):
    • How long before we leave Mist?
    • Second meeting with Ami. Should it happen? If so:
      • Should we seek a honest answer regarding whether she's in danger/wants a political marriage?
      • Would require better OPSEC. A walk across the bay, then a picnic?
      • We're a bit shaken from recent events. Any advice?
    • If Jiraiya approves, send a letter. Contents:
      • Decline the favour.
      • Set up the second meeting.
        • Place: "near" a random restaurant.
        • Time: tomorrow? (Jiraiya's call.)
  • Clear this section with Jiraiya:
    • Watch today's matches.
    • Verify Ami's story (if time permits).
      • Byakuren's Cookbook: name-drop Ami for regulars-only menu.
      • Persuade Chouji to visit a few restaurants, inquire about their history. (We're paying.) Points of interest:
        • Connection between Byakuren's Cookbook and Experimental Cuisine.
        • Byakuren's Cookbook serving large groups of ninja.
    • If anyone talks about Hazou and Ami: no comment.

How about this, starting right after Pandaa delivers the message:

  • We reply with:
    • Hazou is going to leave the inn now, so Keiko can return safely.
    • Noburi will be there to help her with her match preparation. She shouldn't punish him for Hazou's and Shikamaru's stupidity.
    • *whatever Noburi wants to insert into the message about Hazou's failings, I bet he'll do a good job*
  • Hazou leaves, goes to find Shikamaru, and explain to him, in painstaking detail, why he fucked up
    • If he's going to marry Keiko, he'll need to know this either way
  • Flex slot for after we're done talking to Shikamaru
    • Ikeda?
    • Ino?
    • Hana?
    • Hinata?
    • Apologize in advance to Shino for Keiko's inevitable brutality?
    • WILD IDEA?
Basically, we remove Hazou from the premises and kinda-guilt Keiko into coming back and commiserating with Noburi.
I... don't know if we can do stuff that far back, or if the start of the update is still the second Ami letter. Something like that would certainly be a good use of the wordcount previously occupied talking with Keiko.
 
December 26, afternoon.

WibblyWobblyTimeyWimey.gif

The crowd was variously shocked

SHIKAMARU: Did you even watch my previous fights? What part of that was out of character for me?

and Nara happens to be one of exactly two non-Gōketsu friends she's got. Don't look at me like that, you know it's true."

HAZOU: Noburi, the Mori voice doesn't count as a friend.

NOBURI: That's not... (sigh)

She wouldn't go around hiding this massive improvement in her relationship status from her own clan."

"That certainly is not a thing you would expect to happen," Noburi agreed.

For a moment, something about Noburi's tone of voice bothered Hazō, but he didn't know what it was. Too even, maybe?

No matter. This wasn't the time for diplomacy practice.

Oh. This again. F u n.

[x] Action Plan: Realise Kei is Dating Tenten
  • There's plenty of quotes of evidence Hazou has seen in the Perceptive Hazou Initiative in my sig, choose whatever works.
You!" Hazō seized his thousandth civilian. "Have you seen Nara Shikamaru? About this tall, sticky-up black hair, dark grey clothes, possibly fleeing in terror?"

"N=No, honourable ninja, sir! I'm sorry! Please don't kill me!"

"You!" Hazō seized his thousand-and-first civilian. ""Have you seen Nara Shikamaru? About this tall, sticky-up black hair, dark grey clothes, possibly fleeing in terror?"

"N-No, honourable ninja! Please, I have a family!"

NOBURI: Do you think maybe you should be gentler with the civilians?

HAZOU: (holding a knife to a crying SHOPKEEPER's throat) Why?

Since it wouldn't make sense for Lord Nara or Jiraiya to hide it from her in the first place… it means they don't know."

SHIKAMARU: See! I can fuck my clan head over, too! Now let me be a protagonist, damnit!

"Nara! You're alive!" Hazō sagged with relief.

"That does tend to be my default condition," Nara said drily.

HAZOU: Don't sass me, Pineapple.

He'd intended to take some time to make explosive tags, because he didn't want to face Kagome-sensei's rants about keeping his priorities straight if he came back without at least two hundred.

Best character.

"He'll want to by the time I'm done with him," Hazō promised grimly. "Nobody gets to inadvertently traumatise my stepsister but me."

I suppose we should plan for what we're going to do for this.
 
I... don't know if we can do stuff that far back, or if the start of the update is still the second Ami letter. Something like that would certainly be a good use of the wordcount previously occupied talking with Keiko.

@Velorien? Even assuming we can't affect Keiko's absence in any way, are we allowed to do things before the second Ami message arrives, like explaining ourselves to Noburi?

@Tua this might be another opportunity to broach the sister topic.
 
You know, for a second there I honestly thought that Keiko had literally blown up Shino's balls. As in explosively castrated him.

Thank Jashin that didn't actually happen.
 
Alright, here's the plan again, and I highlighted every Keiko mention that doesn't make sense if she's out of reach.

I'm pretty busy until this afternoon, though, so I'll only start looking to make changes then.

Thanks!

My notes on the plan (no word-count optimisation):

[X] Action Plan: Reasonable Handling of New Information.
  • Grab Noburi and show the letter to Jiraiya. Help him find a clean shirt. In the process, quickly confirm conclusions:
    • Letter #1 was deliberately leaked through a compromised courier. Implication: Courier #2 wasn't compromised.
    • Letter #2 leaves us an opportunity to go along with the marriage (if it wasn't leaked), and signals that Ami'll drop it if we won't
    • Letter #1 was pretty aggressive: likely signals that she strongly prefers the former option. Testing Courier #1 was secondary.
    • If we run out of time, cover these later.
  • Tell Keiko and Noburi about the second letter. Pre-empt their concerns, this one's good news.
    • Let them voice their opinions.
    • Carefully ask Keiko's thoughts on the potential second meeting.
      • Ask permission to potentially talk about her with Ami.
  • Finally get Noburi's full opinion on the situation. <-- promoted to exclusive task instead of sub-task
  • Go bet all our money on Keiko
  • Do something calming and rote to relax a little, like making explosives. <-- Don't have time and explosives we're already made
  • Help Keiko plan for her upcoming fight. <-- delete for obvious reasons
  • Once Jiraiya returns, discuss the situation (include Noburi and Keiko; high-OPSEC conditions): <-- Don't know how to handle this part since I don't know when the fight starts. We probably should try to get to Jiraiya immediately after the fight and put this section near the end of updated plan
    • How long before we leave Mist?
    • Second meeting with Ami. Should it happen? If so:
      • Should we seek a honest answer regarding whether she's in danger/wants a political marriage?
      • Would require better OPSEC. A walk across the bay, then a picnic?
      • We're a bit shaken from recent events. Any advice?
    • If Jiraiya approves, send a letter. Contents:
      • Decline the favour.
      • Set up the second meeting.
        • Place: "near" a random restaurant.
        • Time: tomorrow? (Jiraiya's call.)
  • Clear this section with Jiraiya: <-- we're definitely allowed in the village since we know Hazouwill attend the fight and were running aroud the previous day, so we might just go
    • Watch today's match.
    • Verify Ami's story (if time permits).
      • Byakuren's Cookbook: name-drop Ami for regulars-only menu.
      • Persuade Chouji to visit a few restaurants, inquire about their history. (We're paying.) Points of interest:
        • Connection between Byakuren's Cookbook and Experimental Cuisine.
        • Byakuren's Cookbook serving large groups of ninja.
    • If anyone talks about Hazou and Ami: no comment.
  • After Keiko's win:
    • Find out how much money we won
    • Congratulate Keiko
    • Express how awesome she is
    • Tell her we bet all money on her and how much we got from it
    • Tell Keiko about the second letter. Pre-empt her concerns, this one's good news. <-- probably requires re-phrasing and moresecure location
      • Let her voice her opinion.
      • Carefully ask Keiko's thoughts on the potential second meeting.
        • Ask permission to potentially talk about her with Ami.
    • Find Jiraiya:
      • Ask what is the agenda for the evening (will there be oficial ceremony/congratulations/after-party?)
      • Express your concerns on Aburame clan being mad at Keiko and note that we need to make some ammends
        • Ask whether Jiraiya wants us to handle Shino talk/presents/whatever
 
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As for Ami, the question you always have to ask is, what will she do in response?

What could she possibly do?
Try to marry Haz....

Oh.

One of the dynamics in the story that irks me is the fact that apologies and efforts (however flawed they may be) to accommodate others always seem so one-sided. However, that might my biases talking so I was wondering if others felt the same: is Hazou truly the only one who apologizes and tries to make up with others or is my 'headcanon' wrong? It feels like we spend a sizeable amount of plans trying to fix our relations with people and I don't recall NPCs doing the same for him. A couple examples: Keiko, Ino, Noburi, Keiko, Kagome, etc.

Yes and no
Yes.
In the sense that we aren't the only one fucking up.
It's just that other people are too deep in their own issues to actually notice that until everything blow up in the most spectacular way.
There is a reason if half of the interludes we see it's people dying/suffering horribly because they can't be bothered to talk.
Like the Uchiha/Senju that killed each other because "Oh!We are clearly in love and my family wants either of us dead" was too difficult to say.
Should i remind you that Ren first plan with us was "Go to the child of the sister we cast out and ask him to come with us, while not saying anything to said sister", instead of actually talking like a decent human being do?
She is the current Mizukage, not some genin fresh of the academy.
And let's not even get started on Ami,currently running for the "Smartest idiot in all of the world", that it's an accurate phrase to describe a fair amount of ninja.
We are in that sweet spot of sanity where we create gigantic messes, but have the insight to actually notice it.

No in the sense that generally speaking they fuck up less than us(Even if their fuck-ups are generally far bigger)
Because they are a single characters, we are a hivemind that act through a distinct and separate character.
This makes our decision making process far more polished, and capable of ridiculous flexibility, at the cost of not being exactly constant in execution and forgetting things that a person living there would not.

But hey!
We can easily resolve this!
A calming tea with Aunt Ren,and some gift for her: The Three Lists, i call it.
The List of the Past:All The Ways You Hurt My Mother and Me.
The List of the Present:All the Ways You Could Have Prevented This.
The List of the Future:What You Can Do to Change It.

I am filled with complicated negative emotions. Let's try unpacking them:

Shino tried to surrender. Keiko didn't let him. She had already won the fight but decided to maim her opponent. She made it look like she was trying to make a point along the lines of "Don't mess with the Goketsu", legitimizing her actions with Shino not surrendering before the fight I guess.

But she didn't actually want him to surrender before the fight. She knew he wouldn't; because it would make Shino look bad if he surredered the finals because he got threatened by his opponent.
She explicitely wanted to make Shino feel a significant amount of pain.

Now, I can sympathise with wanting to cause pain to someone who has caused you pain. It might not always be a good thing to do, but I can understand the feeling.

But Shino didn't actually do anyting to Keiko (I think?). Rather it feels to me like Keiko was angry at Hazou/Shikamaru and therefore emotionally felt in the right to fuck up some unrelated stranger [insert 'are we the baddies' meme here].

Then again, these are ninja with a different perception of physical violence. And they were engaged in a mock fight-to-the-death.
Still, what Keiko did is quite a contrast to how Choji handled his win against Hinata.

I feel that it wouldn't be unusual for Shino and/or his friends/family to develop a bit of a grudge.
Bad relations with the Aburame might influence wether or not Jiraiya keeps the hat.
A formal apology may be appropriate.

I mean, Keiko did explicitly say that this was a bad idea.
Shino ignored her warning.
Shino got wrecked.
If Keiko wanted to hurt Shino, she wouldn't have warned him in such a way.
So it's less "Keiko wants to hurt Shino" and more "Keiko is pissed, so she's not gonna waste energy controlling herself".
It's normal being far less patient when you're angry.
If Keiko explicitly went out of her way to engineer a situation where she would hurt Shino more than necessary, then you would be right.

She's not exactly...justified, but it's understandable.
Yes, a reconciliation may be appropriate, but personally i would suggest a direct interaction from Keiko instead of a formal one.
We want comrades, not enemies.
 
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Does it count as abuse if we go out and bet a lot of money on Keiko winning? It makes sense as an IC action for Hazou---also to signal his confidence in her ability to win without his planning.

She's probably already the favourite to win, but even a 10% risk-free return is pretty good for one day.
If it's something you could plausibly have written into the original plan but chose not to, it's probably abuse. As to IC, Hazō would probably be imagining two scenarios.

Keiko wins:

HAZŌ: Oh, by the way, Keiko, I decided to bet lots of money on you because I was confident you'd win without my planning.

KEIKO: Yes, that is material evidence that you have faith in my and the pangolins' collective abilities. Obviously, you bet in the knowledge that it would be the pangolins doing all the heavy lifting because I am worthless, but at least you trusted me not to cancel out their abilities with my sheer incompetence. Thank you.

Keiko loses:

HAZŌ: Oh, by the way, Keiko, I decided to bet lots of money on you because I was confident you'd win without my planning.

KEIKO: Clearly you were wrong to have confidence in me because I am a terrible person who cannot plan without your help, and an even more terrible person for rejecting that help, and now my terribleness has cost you your money because you had faith in me and I failed you. I understand now that I never deserved your trust, and will promptly throw myself into the nearest lake so as not to risk depleting clan funds again in the future.

@Velorien? Even assuming we can't affect Keiko's absence in any way, are we allowed to do things before the second Ami message arrives, like explaining ourselves to Noburi?
If you intend it to take place in the evening after Pandā delivers the message, sure. I don't think that requires foreknowledge of Ami's letter or the Finals.

Oh. This again. F u n.
I've looked at your initiative again. Some parts I accept as evidence and others I don't. But that isn't really relevant, because the main point of contention for me is that it ignores Hazō's characterisation. Hazō has repeatedly been portrayed as having a hit-and-miss understanding of interpersonal relationships at best, and rarely if ever as connecting the dots through objective analysis of independent points of evidence accumulated over time. He is not the hivemind. He is a teenager who had few if any friends in school and then spent two years surviving in the wilderness with five people, of whom two had social skills in the negative. Frankly, it's a miracle that he's as well-socialised as he is.
 
Oh yeah, @eaglejarl Keiko seems to have burned 10CP for each of Shino's attacks, yet my recollection of the rules was that you'd only have to burn chakra for chakra boost once each round, regardless of the number of attacks?
 
Is no one going to comment on the fact that you can have summons on the human path while you are reverse summoned? This could be a game changer.
 
Because it's a secret Pangolin technique, OPSEC, yadda yadda yadda.
Note: We have not put any points in PET.
Really? Why hasn't Hazou been using it at every opportunity? Even Ami would have probably been caught off guard if his response to her seduction gambit had been to start licking his own eyebrows.
We haven't trained it at all. Theoretically I think we could? It's not really super duper useful in combat. It's more of a buff towards searching and has some more esoteric uses if you're particularly clever in applying it.

Is no one going to comment on the fact that you can have summons on the human path while you are reverse summoned? This could be a game changer.
I think we already did "Oh look! Nukes!" over that one.


Okay, so what the fudge do we do?
 
Keiko wins:

HAZŌ: Oh, by the way, Keiko, I decided to bet lots of money on you because I was confident you'd win without my planning.

KEIKO: Yes, that is material evidence that you have faith in my and the pangolins' collective abilities. Obviously, you bet in the knowledge that it would be the pangolins doing all the heavy lifting because I am worthless, but at least you trusted me not to cancel out their abilities with my sheer incompetence. Thank you.

I mean we live in a world where no matter what we do Keiko is going to be mopey so we're free to do whatever. Also we could just not tell her. (Though I can respect the do not mess with time aspect. Even if I find it very annoying)
 
But that isn't really relevant, because the main point of contention for me is that it ignores Hazō's characterisation.

Velorien, how are we supposed to change that part of Hazou's characterisation if you won't let us vote for actions that go against it?

This isn't a case of Hazou deciding not to do a plan because of things he knows that we don't, or because it opposes his core values. This is Hazou being modelled as incompetent at something -- and therefore not being allowed to do things that would demonstrate competence at it -- and that cementing his characterisation as incompetent.

I understand if Hazou won't connect dots like this without our direct interference (until we've interferred enough times that it's become an internal part of him, at least), but following this logic Hazou shouldn't be good at planning because he wasn't before we started putting plans in his head.
 
So how much time did you spend googling pangolin genitalia for this update? Or had you done it beforehand so as to have the facts on file?
It's a random fact that I discovered while reading about pangolins back when we decided to use them.


They really are amazing animals. I hope we don't kill every single one of them and remove their beauty from existence because some people are too stupid to realize that keratin will not in fact change your floppy into a hard drive.


Really? Why hasn't Hazou been using it at every opportunity? Even Ami would have probably been caught off guard if his response to her seduction gambit had been to start licking his own eyebrows.
It's available to you but Hazō hasn't learned it yet. Also, it's safe to assume that it works substantially better for pangolins than for humans.

Oh yeah, @eaglejarl Keiko seems to have burned 10CP for each of Shino's attacks, yet my recollection of the rules was that you'd only have to burn chakra for chakra boost once each round, regardless of the number of attacks?
I'm fairly confident that's not correct, but I've learned that when you and I disagree on factual matters it's almost certainly you who is correct. Still, could you check the rules for me? I would do it but I need to run.
 
I'm fairly confident that's not correct, but I've learned that when you and I disagree on factual matters it's almost certainly you who is correct. Still, could you check the rules for me? I would do it but I need to run.
rulesdoc said:
Chakra Boosting
At the start of each combat round, before anyone has taken their actions, each ninja can temporarily improve their performance by channelling additional chakra into their muscles or techniques.


Chakra boost will increase all of your combat skills (Athletics, Taijutsu, Ranged Weapons, Melee Weapons, and all Attack ninjutsu, but not Alertness or genjutsu) for the rest of the round.


You may boost up to (Aspect bonus of highest combat skill).


Each point of boost costs 5 CP.
 
how are we supposed to change that part of Hazou's characterisation if you won't let us vote for actions that go against it?
Just binge read the Icha Icha series in a week, yo.

Friendship rivals with Rock Lee, etc.

Perhaps start from here:
I'm not sure we should be doing that exact same plan and/or do it without heavy modifications depending on whether or not the start time is different.

@Inferno Vulpix By the way, I think you win "longest continuous amount of time spent with a single active plan " by now.
 
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Velorien, how are we supposed to change that part of Hazou's characterisation if you won't let us vote for actions that go against it?

This isn't a case of Hazou deciding not to do a plan because of things he knows that we don't, or because it opposes his core values. This is Hazou being modelled as incompetent at something -- and therefore not being allowed to do things that would demonstrate competence at it -- and that cementing his characterisation as incompetent.

I understand if Hazou won't connect dots like this without our direct interference (until we've interferred enough times that it's become an internal part of him, at least), but following this logic Hazou shouldn't be good at planning because he wasn't before we started putting plans in his head.
Could you give an example of the kind of actions you've voted for/would vote for that would help change this part of Hazō's characterisation? Also, an example where you've been actively blocked from making Hazō aware of the situation? This isn't intended to be aggressive, just to help me understand the broader context you're coming from.
 
I noticed and rated that post. I'm sorry for implying otherwise. I don't think this is remotely enough enthusiasm from the player base in response, but you did notice it.

This might not be shadow clones, but it's not far off in terms of riskless ops, and has plenty advantages too. It's a shame that we don't like the pangolins, since otherwise we could trivially make this stupidly exploitable by helping them and the toads conquer everyone and free up their military for our uses; once they are no longer needed for combat ops, Noburi + Keiko + draining leaf ninja could give us a death squad of elite fighters that return from the grave. They could all have suicide techniques (where the suicide technique can even be sets offf a ton of explosives), they can completely neglect exit plans, there's no need to worry about exchanging crippling injuries for letting teammates obtain the objective, no need to worry about special innovations being copied because only we have summons....

We should really try and find a summoning clan we can get along with, or at least Coup the pangolins.
 
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@MadScientist I think what @Velorien is saying is that Hazou's characterization prevents him from realizing Keiko and Tenten are in a relationship on his own. Not that said characterization would stop a plan explicitly aimed at him realizing this from being carried out. Let me know if I got this wrong, but I feel like you're both talking past each other.
 
Could you give an example of the kind of actions you've voted for/would vote for that would help change this part of Hazō's characterisation? Also, an example where you've been actively blocked from making Hazō aware of the situation? This isn't intended to be aggressive, just to help me understand the broader context you're coming from.

The only time I'm aware of us being directly blocked from improving the situation was just now (unless you count general attitudes to the effect of "no, because that's OOC knowledge" which prompted the creation of the Perceptive Hazou Initiative).

As to things I would vote for (apart from what I just did vote for), if I thought it would do any good it's entirely plausible that I would do more social analyses and attempt to feed them directly into Hazou's brain. I've proposed doing so in the past, but either QMs or players (can't remember which) didn't like the idea.
 
I just think we need stop doing this learned helplessness and get Hazō out to socialize.

Only then will he stop doing socially stupid things.
 
@MadScientist I think what @Velorien is saying is that Hazou's characterization prevents him from realizing Keiko and Tenten are in a relationship on his own. Not that said characterization would stop a plan explicitly aimed at him realizing this from being carried out. Let me know if I got this wrong, but I feel like you're both talking past each other.

If he can realise it if we make a plan to point it out to him, then @Velorien shouldn't have had a problem with my vote. But he did have a problem with it.
 
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