- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
...I am straining mightily to stop myself from spending time figuring out how to make this work.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
-
- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Oh, there's plenty of ways to make it possible -- simplest would be an underwater pressure vessel with air scrubbers.[1] The point is that it's a stupid idea; it doesn't alleviate a specific pain point and SCUBA divers aren't that big a market.
[1] Actually, the simplest would be to deliberately misunderstand the point and say "You only said it was supposed to be used by SCUBA divers, you never said it had to be used underwater! We'll just take a regular hibachi and market it to SCUBA divers!!1!!1!!"
- Location
- USA
Minor nitpick, but I believe there was already some value at the time - people were already inoculating with smallpox itself as a 'vaccine'. Edward Jenner was just the one to figure out Cowpox might be able to do it too (with a significant difference in adverse effects of the 'vaccine')
Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
- Location
- Left of Center
Oh god, we've had this argument before and you're still wrong.
The efficient market hypotheses only partially applies in our world, and the CS startup environment is one of the places where it's most applicable.
It does not generalize, to a world where production is costly, most ideas can't be pursued due to lack of skill or opportunity, and the pool of people generating ideas with even modest filtering is so small.
That heuristic you have works where you live and with what you do, it doesn't even apply in all of our world right now or in every domain, much less the medieval Earth, or the elemental nations.
Yes, fine I get that overvaluing ideas in real world scenarios is a common error that people make. But it does not let you similar claims about huge swathes of possibility space.
(And yeah, being annoyed with that error, in the context of the real the world is perfectly reasonable. It's just that I have an issue when people overgeneralize because they underestimate the sheer magnilude of their sampling bias.)
(Seriously, that you're a person, alive today, with access to a computer, other first world resources, and only a highly limited ability to make arbitrary edits to themselves, is incredibly weird. And it's very easy to lose sight of that.)
Edit: huh I just realized I misread Hibachi as Hitachi and was wondering why that was so useless. I mean, you probably don't need one rated for 10s of meters, but I'm sure tons of people would love one that worked in the bathtub.
Edit 2: I suppose the better way to put my argument is "When testing is costly, plausible hypotheses are valuable." (Where "plausible" is measured relative to the background noise of people thinking up random things)
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- Location
- Potato land
That, it seems to me, is entirely dependent on how revolutionary and valuable the idea itself is. Sure, if you're looking for VC funding as a SV startup, and your idea is basically the equivalent of an elevator pitch for your product, it's likely not worth much.
However, I don't think this is a good analogy for Hazou's contributions. Let me propose a better one; consider public key cryptography. The execution of Merkle, Diffie, Hellman, and the RSA trio was nothing to write home about, they basically had a couple proofs-of-concept, very simple ones too. Merkle Puzzles can be explained in a few sentences to a layman, as can Diffie-Hellman key exchange. RSA uses high-school level mathematics. It's all really basic.
The value wasn't in the execution, it was in that these people managed to think in a way nobody else did, and provide a revolutionary solution to a milennia-old problem. That you could encrypt plaintext in a way that didn't immediately yield a method of decrypting it, it was just an idea, an idea nobody before them chanced upon, and not for a lack of trying.
Going back to Hazou, the idea wasn't Skywalkers or Skytowers specifically, but rather that any seal capable of creating a solid surface fixed in place could be used as a means of air travel. The specific implementation of this idea to create Skywalkers was Kagome's accomplishment. But, as Jiraiya says, he, and likely many others, have had access to Air Domes and other similar seals for decades, and yet none of them thought in the direction Hazou had. They saw a basic defensive seal, and didn't think to look any further.
Going back to SV for a second, consider how much the rise of Google owed to PageRank, another simple idea that just happened to solve an important, emerging problem in a very effective way.
So, on the whole, I would agree that the vast majority of ideas are worthless. Not all, though. And the rare exceptions can be absolutely priceless.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
While I agree, uh... you may want to rephrase the first line. That's really combative.
- Location
- USA
There's also potential time-dilation abuse that makes it worthwhile from our PoV - a month's worth of brainstorming on our end can be 2-3 days in-story, which probably helps by sheer quantity of ideas Hazou could brainstorm and offer up if literally locked in a room to research/give ideas to other Sealmasters. Not that Jiraiya knows about that (beyond the general idea that we come up with elaborate thoughts with very little time sometimes)
- Location
- Yes.
So uh... @eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail Any update on:
- Keiko's Pangolins/Pangolin jutsu?
- Character sheets?
- Unanswered questions from the last update:
- Who did the other Leaf teams encounter and how did it go?
- Who do they think are the high-power dangerous teams to watch out for?
- How many seals did they bring in?
- How did other Teams locate the Exam?
- For any team who turned in word, put high priority on learning how proctors treated them and what measures were in place to prevent them from sending messages back.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm afraid PageRank is actually an argument for my side. Brin and Page shopped the idea around to Altavista, Yahoo, and the other dominant search engines of the day; no one would buy it. It was literally worthless. Then they went and executed on it themselves and made hundreds of billions.
Yep. It's also wrong, but eh.
See, that is an entirely different proposition. And unlike your prior one, this one is at least somewhat correct-adjacent. A plausible hypothesis is very different from a mere idea, and it has value in that it lets you complete execution more quickly.
I honestly don't give a damn what restrictions or conditions or scenarios you dredge up: a collection of symbols in your brain is worthless until it has some reification in the world around you. A dog turd is more valuable than an idea, because at least you can use a dog turd as fertilizer.
Going back to @Roomba's examples: The idea for PKI is worthless. The actual existence of PKI is valuable. You (@Jello_Raptor) are insisting on missing the distinction regardless of how I phrase it, so let me try to break it down into Neji-sized bites:
- In the context of this discussion, things have value insofar as they affect humans in non-trivial ways.
- If it will save lives or improve the quality of lives, it has value.
- If someone will give you money / favors / services for it, it has value.
- If no one will give you money for it, and it won't heal the sick, and it won't right the wrongs, and it won't etc, then it is worthless.
- An idea is (to a first approximation) a set of symbols inside your brain. It is not a physical thing.
- Humans are not telepathic. They cannot directly perceive the contents of your brain.
- The symbols inside your brain cannot directly affect the outside world. It is only when you perform physical actions that you can affect the outside world.
- If the ordered set of symbols "A method of cryptography that uses different keys for encryption and decryption" floats through your brain, it is not valuable because it does not affect humans in non-trivial ways.
- The following scenario does not affect humans in non-trivial ways. As a result, the referenced ordered collection of symbols is worthless:
- [The scene: A smoky bar. Two friends, Jello_Raptor and Bill, lounge in the corner with beer and canapés]
- Jello_Raptor: Hey, Bill, my good friend, my best bud, I just had the spiffiest ordered set of symbols float through my brain!
- Bill: Really? What might that be, old bean?
- Jello_Raptor: Check this out: 'A method of cryptography that uses different keys for encryption and decryption'!
- Bill: By Jove, such a pipping good ordered collection of symbols you have there! You really are just the sparkiest of chaps, eh wot?
- [exeunt, to get more beer and then throw sharp objects at a round target]
- The following scenario also does not affect humans in non-trivial ways, and therefore the referenced ordered collection of symbols is still worthless:
- Jello_Raptor: Hey, Bill. Remember that spiffy ordered collection of symbols I mentioned when we were combining alcohol and small weapons the other night? Well, I created an actual method whereby I can use it.
- Bill: Most impressive, my good chap! What will you do with it?
- Jello_Raptor: Eh, it was enough to create it. Actually executing on it by marketing the idea and turning it into a product that other people could use wouldn't be fun and would be too much work, so I took all the notes and burned them and I'm never going to mention this again.
- Bill: Right you are, old walrus!
- The following scenario DOES affect humans in non-trivial ways, and therefore IS valuable:
- [The scene: The Netscape offices, 1990s-ish]
- Jello_Raptor: Nice to meet you, Mr. Elgamal. I was wondering if you'd pay me for the ordered collection of symbols 'A method of cryptography that uses different keys for encryption and decryption.'
- Taher Elgamal: No. That collection of symbols doesn't solve any problem I have or directly improve my product. At most I might consider putting an engineer on it to find an implementation, but the mere suggestion isn't worth anything.
- Jello_Raptor: Oh, pity. I always thought that ordered collections of symbols were valuable but apparently I was incorrect. I'll have to go find @eaglejarl 40-ish years from now and admit that. In the meantime, would you pay me for a chunk of code that implements my ordered collection of symbols in a way that will let your browser talk to remote computers securely so that your customers can do online banking safely?
- Taher Elgamal: Holy hellfires, yes! Here, have some money! And some more money! And some more!
- Second example, because you have repeatedly insisted that software businesses are different from physical-based businesses:
- [The scene: The salon of a wealthy patron of the arts, Paris, France, circa 1874]
- Jello_Raptor: Good afternoon, Mr Richperson. Would you please give me ten thousand francs for the ordered collection of symbols 'a canvas on which pigmented oils have been applied in such a way that they provide an impression of sunrise over the harbor at Le Havre without actually depicting it in a realistic way'?
- Mr Richperson: No.
- Jello_Raptor: Oh, pity. I always thought that ordered collections of symbols were valuable but apparently I am incorrect even when we aren't discussing software. Well, would you give me money in exchange for this beautiful painting that will kickstart an entire new style of art and for the sake of this contrived example we will assume was done by me and not by Monet? [holds up stunningly beautiful painting]
- Mr Richperson: Holy hellfires, yes! Here, have some money! And some more money! And some more!
Did I Neji that down enough?
EDIT: I think this came off harsher than intended. To be clear, the above is written predominantly in a spirit of puckishness with a sprinkle of frustration at having repeatedly failed to convey the idea in more concise and less bombastic language. No denigration of Jello_Raptor's formidable brainpower is intended; I'm deliberately overexplaining in order to hopefully put to bed a thing that's been floating around in the thread for a very long time.
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I'm afraid PageRank is actually an argument for my side. Brin and Page shopped the idea around to Altavista, Yahoo, and the other dominant search engines of the day; no one would buy it. It was literally worthless. Then they went and executed on it themselves and made hundreds of billions.
Yep. It's also wrong, but eh.
See, that is an entirely different proposition. And unlike your prior one, this one is at least somewhat correct-adjacent. A plausible hypothesis is very different from a mere idea, and it has value in that it lets you complete execution more quickly.
I honestly don't give a damn what restrictions or conditions or scenarios you dredge up: a collection of symbols in your brain is worthless until it has some reification in the world around you. A dog turd is more valuable than an idea, because at least you can use a dog turd as fertilizer.
Going back to @Roomba's examples: The idea for PKI is worthless. The actual existence of PKI is valuable. You (@Jello_Raptor) are insisting on missing the distinction regardless of how I phrase it, so let me try to break it down into Neji-sized bites:
- In the context of this discussion, things have value insofar as they affect humans in non-trivial ways.
- If it will save lives or improve the quality of lives, it has value.
- If someone will give you money / favors / services for it, it has value.
- If no one will give you money for it, and it won't heal the sick, and it won't right the wrongs, and it won't etc, then it is worthless.
- An idea is (to a first approximation) a set of symbols inside your brain. It is not a physical thing.
- Humans are not telepathic. They cannot directly perceive the contents of your brain.
- The symbols inside your brain cannot directly affect the outside world. It is only when you perform physical actions that you can affect the outside world.
- If the ordered set of symbols "A method of cryptography that uses different keys for encryption and decryption" floats through your brain, it is not valuable because it does not affect humans in non-trivial ways.
- The following scenario does not affect humans in non-trivial ways. As a result, the referenced ordered collection of symbols is worthless:
- [The scene: A smoky bar. Two friends, Jello_Raptor and Bill, lounge in the corner with beer and canapés]
- Jello_Raptor: Hey, Bill, my good friend, my best bud, I just had the spiffiest ordered set of symbols float through my brain!
- Bill: Really? What might that be, old bean?
- Jello_Raptor: Check this out: 'A method of cryptography that uses different keys for encryption and decryption'!
- Bill: By Jove, such a pipping good ordered collection of symbols you have there! You really are just the sparkiest of chaps, eh wot?
- [exeunt, to get more beer and then throw sharp objects at a round target]
- The following scenario also does not affect humans in non-trivial ways, and therefore the referenced ordered collection of symbols is still worthless:
- Jello_Raptor: Hey, Bill. Remember that spiffy ordered collection of symbols I mentioned when we were combining alcohol and small weapons the other night? Well, I created an actual method whereby I can use it.
- Bill: Most impressive, my good chap! What will you do with it?
- Jello_Raptor: Eh, it was enough to create it. Actually executing on it by marketing the idea and turning it into a product that other people could use wouldn't be fun and would be too much work, so I took all the notes and burned them and I'm never going to mention this again.
- Bill: Right you are, old walrus!
- The following scenario DOES affect humans in non-trivial ways, and therefore IS valuable:
- [The scene: The Netscape offices, 1990s-ish]
- Jello_Raptor: Nice to meet you, Mr. Elgamal. I was wondering if you'd pay me for the ordered collection of symbols 'A method of cryptography that uses different keys for encryption and decryption.'
- Taher Elgamal: No. That collection of symbols doesn't solve any problem I have or directly improve my product. At most I might consider putting an engineer on it to find an implementation, but the mere suggestion isn't worth anything.
- Jello_Raptor: Oh, pity. I always thought that ordered collections of symbols were valuable but apparently I was incorrect. I'll have to go find @eaglejarl 40-ish years from now and admit that. In the meantime, would you pay me for a chunk of code that implements my ordered collection of symbols in a way that will let your browser talk to remote computers securely so that your customers can do online banking safely?
- Taher Elgamal: Holy hellfires, yes! Here, have some money! And some more money! And some more!
- Second example, because you have repeatedly insisted that software businesses are different from physical-based businesses:
- [The scene: The salon of a wealthy patron of the arts, Paris, France, circa 1874]
- Jello_Raptor: Good afternoon, Mr Richperson. Would you please give me ten thousand francs for the ordered collection of symbols 'a canvas on which pigmented oils have been applied in such a way that they provide an impression of sunrise over the harbor at Le Havre without actually depicting it in a realistic way'?
- Mr Richperson: No.
- Jello_Raptor: Oh, pity. I always thought that ordered collections of symbols were valuable but apparently I am incorrect even when we aren't discussing software. Well, would you give me money in exchange for this beautiful painting that will kickstart an entire new style of art and for the sake of this contrived example we will assume was done by me and not by Monet? [holds up stunningly beautiful painting]
- Mr Richperson: Holy hellfires, yes! Here, have some money! And some more money! And some more!
Did I Neji that down enough?
Remind me not to piss you off.
- Location
- Yes.
JFC man Neji has a family. I mean, most of them are assholes but still...I'm afraid PageRank is actually an argument for my side. Brin and Page shopped the idea around to Altavista, Yahoo, and the other dominant search engines of the day; no one would buy it. It was literally worthless. Then they went and executed on it themselves and made hundreds of billions.
Yep. It's also wrong, but eh.
See, that is an entirely different proposition. And unlike your prior one, this one is at least somewhat correct-adjacent. A plausible hypothesis is very different from a mere idea, and it has value in that it lets you complete execution more quickly.
I honestly don't give a damn what restrictions or conditions or scenarios you dredge up: a collection of symbols in your brain is worthless until it has some reification in the world around you. A dog turd is more valuable than an idea, because at least you can use a dog turd as fertilizer.
Going back to @Roomba's examples: The idea for PKI is worthless. The actual existence of PKI is valuable. You (@Jello_Raptor) are insisting on missing the distinction regardless of how I phrase it, so let me try to break it down into Neji-sized bites:
- In the context of this discussion, things have value insofar as they affect humans in non-trivial ways.
- If it will save lives or improve the quality of lives, it has value.
- If someone will give you money / favors / services for it, it has value.
- If no one will give you money for it, and it won't heal the sick, and it won't right the wrongs, and it won't etc, then it is worthless.
- An idea is (to a first approximation) a set of symbols inside your brain. It is not a physical thing.
- Humans are not telepathic. They cannot directly perceive the contents of your brain.
- The symbols inside your brain cannot directly affect the outside world. It is only when you perform physical actions that you can affect the outside world.
- If the ordered set of symbols "A method of cryptography that uses different keys for encryption and decryption" floats through your brain, it is not valuable because it does not affect humans in non-trivial ways.
- The following scenario does not affect humans in non-trivial ways. As a result, the referenced ordered collection of symbols is worthless:
- [The scene: A smoky bar. Two friends, Jello_Raptor and Bill, lounge in the corner with beer and canapés]
- Jello_Raptor: Hey, Bill, my good friend, my best bud, I just had the spiffiest ordered set of symbols float through my brain!
- Bill: Really? What might that be, old bean?
- Jello_Raptor: Check this out: 'A method of cryptography that uses different keys for encryption and decryption'!
- Bill: By Jove, such a pipping good ordered collection of symbols you have there! You really are just the sparkiest of chaps, eh wot?
- [exeunt, to get more beer and then throw sharp objects at a round target]
- The following scenario also does not affect humans in non-trivial ways, and therefore the referenced ordered collection of symbols is still worthless:
- Jello_Raptor: Hey, Bill. Remember that spiffy ordered collection of symbols I mentioned when we were combining alcohol and small weapons the other night? Well, I created an actual method whereby I can use it.
- Bill: Most impressive, my good chap! What will you do with it?
- Jello_Raptor: Eh, it was enough to create it. Actually executing on it by marketing the idea and turning it into a product that other people could use wouldn't be fun and would be too much work, so I took all the notes and burned them and I'm never going to mention this again.
- Bill: Right you are, old walrus!
- The following scenario DOES affect humans in non-trivial ways, and therefore IS valuable:
- [The scene: The Netscape offices, 1990s-ish]
- Jello_Raptor: Nice to meet you, Mr. Elgamal. I was wondering if you'd pay me for the ordered collection of symbols 'A method of cryptography that uses different keys for encryption and decryption.'
- Taher Elgamal: No. That collection of symbols doesn't solve any problem I have or directly improve my product. At most I might consider putting an engineer on it to find an implementation, but the mere suggestion isn't worth anything.
- Jello_Raptor: Oh, pity. I always thought that ordered collections of symbols were valuable but apparently I was incorrect. I'll have to go find @eaglejarl 40-ish years from now and admit that. In the meantime, would you pay me for a chunk of code that implements my ordered collection of symbols in a way that will let your browser talk to remote computers securely so that your customers can do online banking safely?
- Taher Elgamal: Holy hellfires, yes! Here, have some money! And some more money! And some more!
- Second example, because you have repeatedly insisted that software businesses are different from physical-based businesses:
- [The scene: The salon of a wealthy patron of the arts, Paris, France, circa 1874]
- Jello_Raptor: Good afternoon, Mr Richperson. Would you please give me ten thousand francs for the ordered collection of symbols 'a canvas on which pigmented oils have been applied in such a way that they provide an impression of sunrise over the harbor at Le Havre without actually depicting it in a realistic way'?
- Mr Richperson: No.
- Jello_Raptor: Oh, pity. I always thought that ordered collections of symbols were valuable but apparently I am incorrect even when we aren't discussing software. Well, would you give me money in exchange for this beautiful painting that will kickstart an entire new style of art and for the sake of this contrived example we will assume was done by me and not by Monet? [holds up stunningly beautiful painting]
- Mr Richperson: Holy hellfires, yes! Here, have some money! And some more money! And some more!
Did I Neji that down enough?
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Let's be real: The only reason he'd be promoted to chuunin is for political reasons. He's incapable of performing the duties inherent in it.
- Location
- Yes.
Or wartime promotions, which presumably are a thing.
I'm afraid PageRank is actually an argument for my side. Brin and Page shopped the idea around to Altavista, Yahoo, and the other dominant search engines of the day; no one would buy it. It was literally worthless. Then they went and executed on it themselves and made hundreds of billions.
Yep. It's also wrong, but eh.
See, that is an entirely different proposition. And unlike your prior one, this one is at least somewhat correct-adjacent. A plausible hypothesis is very different from a mere idea, and it has value in that it lets you complete execution more quickly.
I honestly don't give a damn what restrictions or conditions or scenarios you dredge up: a collection of symbols in your brain is worthless until it has some reification in the world around you. A dog turd is more valuable than an idea, because at least you can use a dog turd as fertilizer.
Going back to @Roomba's examples: The idea for PKI is worthless. The actual existence of PKI is valuable. You (@Jello_Raptor) are insisting on missing the distinction regardless of how I phrase it, so let me try to break it down into Neji-sized bites:
- In the context of this discussion, things have value insofar as they affect humans in non-trivial ways.
- If it will save lives or improve the quality of lives, it has value.
- If someone will give you money / favors / services for it, it has value.
- If no one will give you money for it, and it won't heal the sick, and it won't right the wrongs, and it won't etc, then it is worthless.
- An idea is (to a first approximation) a set of symbols inside your brain. It is not a physical thing.
- Humans are not telepathic. They cannot directly perceive the contents of your brain.
- The symbols inside your brain cannot directly affect the outside world. It is only when you perform physical actions that you can affect the outside world.
- If the ordered set of symbols "A method of cryptography that uses different keys for encryption and decryption" floats through your brain, it is not valuable because it does not affect humans in non-trivial ways.
- The following scenario does not affect humans in non-trivial ways. As a result, the referenced ordered collection of symbols is worthless:
- [The scene: A smoky bar. Two friends, Jello_Raptor and Bill, lounge in the corner with beer and canapés]
- Jello_Raptor: Hey, Bill, my good friend, my best bud, I just had the spiffiest ordered set of symbols float through my brain!
- Bill: Really? What might that be, old bean?
- Jello_Raptor: Check this out: 'A method of cryptography that uses different keys for encryption and decryption'!
- Bill: By Jove, such a pipping good ordered collection of symbols you have there! You really are just the sparkiest of chaps, eh wot?
- [exeunt, to get more beer and then throw sharp objects at a round target]
- The following scenario also does not affect humans in non-trivial ways, and therefore the referenced ordered collection of symbols is still worthless:
- Jello_Raptor: Hey, Bill. Remember that spiffy ordered collection of symbols I mentioned when we were combining alcohol and small weapons the other night? Well, I created an actual method whereby I can use it.
- Bill: Most impressive, my good chap! What will you do with it?
- Jello_Raptor: Eh, it was enough to create it. Actually executing on it by marketing the idea and turning it into a product that other people could use wouldn't be fun and would be too much work, so I took all the notes and burned them and I'm never going to mention this again.
- Bill: Right you are, old walrus!
- The following scenario DOES affect humans in non-trivial ways, and therefore IS valuable:
- [The scene: The Netscape offices, 1990s-ish]
- Jello_Raptor: Nice to meet you, Mr. Elgamal. I was wondering if you'd pay me for the ordered collection of symbols 'A method of cryptography that uses different keys for encryption and decryption.'
- Taher Elgamal: No. That collection of symbols doesn't solve any problem I have or directly improve my product. At most I might consider putting an engineer on it to find an implementation, but the mere suggestion isn't worth anything.
- Jello_Raptor: Oh, pity. I always thought that ordered collections of symbols were valuable but apparently I was incorrect. I'll have to go find @eaglejarl 40-ish years from now and admit that. In the meantime, would you pay me for a chunk of code that implements my ordered collection of symbols in a way that will let your browser talk to remote computers securely so that your customers can do online banking safely?
- Taher Elgamal: Holy hellfires, yes! Here, have some money! And some more money! And some more!
- Second example, because you have repeatedly insisted that software businesses are different from physical-based businesses:
- [The scene: The salon of a wealthy patron of the arts, Paris, France, circa 1874]
- Jello_Raptor: Good afternoon, Mr Richperson. Would you please give me ten thousand francs for the ordered collection of symbols 'a canvas on which pigmented oils have been applied in such a way that they provide an impression of sunrise over the harbor at Le Havre without actually depicting it in a realistic way'?
- Mr Richperson: No.
- Jello_Raptor: Oh, pity. I always thought that ordered collections of symbols were valuable but apparently I am incorrect even when we aren't discussing software. Well, would you give me money in exchange for this beautiful painting that will kickstart an entire new style of art and for the sake of this contrived example we will assume was done by me and not by Monet? [holds up stunningly beautiful painting]
- Mr Richperson: Holy hellfires, yes! Here, have some money! And some more money! And some more!
Did I Neji that down enough?
Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems to me that you people are arguing past each other because you have different definitions of "idea."
I'll examine this by looking at a specific scenario: the invention of Bitcoin.
Now, I suspect that EagleJarl would say that the idea was "currency using computers" and obviously that's a not very useful thing, and I'd agree that it's worthless.
On the other hand, I'd suspect that Jello_Raptor would say that the idea was something like "a decentralized currency system based around cryptographically proof-of-work verified individual transactions that are recorded in a public distributed network in which verifiers are paid a transaction fee," which is a very different thing entirely. There's no implementation provided, but it's an idea that, if the right person had it in 2005, would have made them quite wealthy.
Similarly in MfD, "seals to fly" is EagleJarl's "idea," which is obviously useless, while "alternating each step using a fixed-point-in-space seal on each of your feet to support you as you move around in three dimensions" is an "idea" (by Jello_Raptor's definition) that really was valuable, seeing as there were a number of people who had the ability to implement but not the idea.
I'd pay good money for Jello_Raptor's type of ideas, but not for EagleJarl's types of ideas.
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Heleor
^_^
Would that idea be valuable? Or would it only be valuable once someone had (re)convinced enough people to also buy in on the concept? If the latter, is the value generated in the convincing, rather than having the idea?
Granted I don't think that idea is valuable as-is today, despite the greater-fool market proving me wrong...
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
On re-reading, that came off harsher than intended. To be clear, it was written predominantly in a spirit of puckishness with a sprinkle of frustration at having repeatedly failed to convey the idea in more concise and less bombastic language. No denigration of Jello_Raptor's formidable brainpower is intended; I'm deliberately overexplaining in order to hopefully put to bed a thing that's been floating around in the thread for a very long time.
I've gone back and added an edit to that effect.
Nope, that's not what I would say. I use the word 'idea' as per its actual definition: a thought or suggestion as to a possible course of action. A thought is not a valuable thing because it does not actually alter the world in significant ways. An implementation of the thought is what could have been valuable if the right someone had had it in 2005. The distinctions I would draw are as follows:
- Idea: A thought that exists in your brain. Produces no impact on the world and is therefore worthless.
- An implementation: Something in the real world that instantiates the idea, e.g. a piece of software, a novel, a painting, a business, or (in MfD) an actual seal. Not all implementations are valuable -- cf "sweaters made out of sugar for blue whales to wear" or "bicycles for fish".
- Execution: The process of identifying which ideas would lead to valuable implementations and then moving from idea to implementation. This generally requires a lot of work -- for a piece of software it involves designing, coding, testing, debugging, and documentation. For a novel it involves plotting, worldbuilding, character design, writing, editing, and (hopefully) publishing. For a business it involves planning, marketing/sales/other form of customer acquisition, payment handling, equipment and facilities sourcing, customer service, some or all of {fundraising, shipping, hiring, managing, designing/implementing an exit} and various other things. For a seal in MfD it requires researching, testing, and (hopefully) conceiving, designing, and implementing safety precautions prior to doing the research.
My understanding of Jello's most recent thesis is that a plausible hypothesis is valuable in and of itself because it helps you select better pathways through the execution phase. That's a little hair-splitty for my tastes but I would grant it if pressed, with the proviso that "plausible hypothesis" is a proper subset (and generally a very sub- subset) of "idea" and therefore it's not really an equivalent statement.
And on that note, I must sleep. Good night, all!
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So this diversion has been great and all, but let's think about the actual plan. The following two sections of the update point to what needs to come next.
The above is the cogent point. Our plan should 'suggest' which team takes which role, with accompanying good reasons.
Here are the assets we have:
[X] Plan of Attack
Proctor interaction protocol (GENERAL PRECAUTION)
Hazou's Suggestions on which Team Should Use Which Approach for Hunting Words
Infiltration Strategy for Team Hazou/Sakura/Keiko
The above is the cogent point. Our plan should 'suggest' which team takes which role, with accompanying good reasons.
Here are the assets we have:
- Hazō, Noburi, Keiko
- Ishihara Akane, Haruno Sakura, Yamamoto Haru
- Nara Shikamaru, Yamanaka Ino, Akimichi Chōji
- Hyūga Neji, Tenten, Rock Lee
- Hyuga Hinata, Inuzuka Kiba, Aburame Shino
[X] Plan of Attack
Proctor interaction protocol (GENERAL PRECAUTION)
- If challenged by a proctor to demonstrate Hazou still has possession of his word half, use the following protocol in the linked post (changed to faflec link) to make sure they are genuine.
Hazou's Suggestions on which Team Should Use Which Approach for Hunting Words
- In general
- Hazou is willing to loan teams 2 Silence Mines and 2 Goo Bombs (Kagome) to use as necessary. Please return if unused.
- Suggest that as per the "while enemy teams are tired and low on chakra" we head out immediately and see what we can get done late afternoon/this evening
- Hazou is going to limit himself on suggesting specific strategies for the well-established teams. They know their own capabilities and what will work.
- Suggest Hyuga Neji, Tenten, and Rock Lee should cover pure violence approach
- They are the most straight up combat focused of the group
- With Neji's eyes providing an easy means of locating targets
- Yamanaka's strategy for her team sounds fine.
- Propose that the Hyuga Hinata/Kiba Inuzaka/Shino Aburame team take on the Stealth strategy
- Hazou has a feeling they'll have no trouble tracking genin to their most vulnerable point and hitting them then.
- For the remaining six Hazou has a more radical proposal.
- He proposes to switch up the teams
- Hazou, Keiko, and Sakura on one team
- Noburi, Akane, and Haru on the other
- Rationale: Team Akane is not well established and doesn't have the long history of working together, so splitting them up is sacrificing less in the way of familiarity
- Assuming Sakura would like an opportunity to show off her genjutsu skills, Akane will generally go along with Hazou's suggestions, and Haru can live with a one-for-one exchange
- Hazou would like his three to try the Infiltration Strategy
- Hazou is pretty well-practiced at Deception and infiltration with disguises
- Sakura can use her genjutsu to aid in the illusion and help pull of switches
- Meanwhile, Keiko's analytical abilities will help make the whole plan go smoother
- Hazou is pretty well-practiced at Deception and infiltration with disguises
- Noburi, Akane, and Haru should go with the pure combat strategy
- Akane and Haru are incredibly skilled fighters, and Noburi (also a very skilled fighter) has experience working with Akane
- Hazou suspects that Haru's lightning jutsu is powerful but chakra intensive... Noburi can keep him topped off.
- Noburi is familiar with Mist village, so the team will have a native guide in setting ambushes. Should make it easier to catch foreign nin in good ambush spots.
- Noburi has practice deploying barrier seals and silence mines to aid in trapping enemies to keep them from avoiding the beatdown and can chakra drain them afterwards.
- He proposes to switch up the teams
Infiltration Strategy for Team Hazou/Sakura/Keiko
- The following is subject to revision and double-checking by Keiko - a big part of her purpose here is to help smooth out the 'script'
- Short discussion with Keiko off to the side about using her Zephyr's Reach jutsu in these plans
- If all goes well none of the opponents will understand what happened or who did it
- That leaves Haruno, but in return she will be revealing to us a great deal about the strengths and limitations of her genjutsu
- Should be good for a 'let's not blab about the details of how we managed this' mutual arrangement with Haruno
- If Keiko is a no-go, try to make the below plans work without using ZR
- Hazou and Keiko will discuss with Haruno that they aren't sure the strengths, limitations, and chakra cost of her genjutsu so she'll have to weigh in how much of Hazou's proposals are practical.
- Hazou will prepare decoy papers (see below) and then spend ten minutes or so practicing Sleight of Hand (see below) using Haruno and Keiko as Observers so he can get down the best possible combinations of Iron Nerve muscle motions to switch papers without anyone seeing what's up.
- Fate Point for Declaration - Jiriaya has some green ink and paper supplies suitable for duplicating the appearance of word halves in his (vastly more extensive and expensive) general calligraphy kit and obligingly pulled them out of his storage seal and gave them to Hazou when Hazou asked during the debrief.
- If GMs disallow the declaration, try to go buy closest match at a calligraphy shop instead.
- Remember that the the decoy word halves only need to look "sufficiently like" actual word half papers to benefit from a genjutsu illusion or to look like the real thing when waved around from several feet away. The plan does not require them to stand up to detailed inspection without a genjutsu covering them.
- Practice with sleight of hand to switch out papers leads to a Maneuver with free tag, or ideally Iron Nerve may let him do even better and have the equivalent of the best possible dice roll?
- Make sure to do it a few extra times without using Iron Nerve even after Hazou gets the 'perfect' version down so that Haruno doesn't see Hazou suddenly become able to repeat the move perfectly. Helps conceal bloodline capabilities.
- Fate Point for Declaration - Jiriaya has some green ink and paper supplies suitable for duplicating the appearance of word halves in his (vastly more extensive and expensive) general calligraphy kit and obligingly pulled them out of his storage seal and gave them to Hazou when Hazou asked during the debrief.
- Hazou will propose several variations on the same basic scheme and try to refine them with the help of Keiko and Haruno
- All of them begin with finding an exam team or better yet exam candidate running around alone.
- Hazou suggests that ninja supply stores around merchant quarter are a good bet, as many teams may want to resupply after their time in the Marsh of Inconvenience
- Anyone with an obvious Consequence making them less observant is preferred
- After make sure no real proctor is around, Hazou henges into a proctor
- Sakura henges (or simply uses a mundane disguise if she is more confident in those skills and wants to save chakra) to look like a civilian bystander
- Discuss merits of having using Keiko openly out as a ninja to put on a brief play where where Hazou-proctor stops Keiko, demands to see her word-half, takes it briefly to look at, and then returns it to her
- This could be used to lay a Deception Maneuver "How things are done" to aid in fooling the target team that other ninja are complying with proctor-Hazou and suffering no issues
- On the other hand, Keiko has to go get into position to use ZR afterwards, and might simply prefer to start from a position of disguise so she's not a suspect
- Leave it as Keiko's call
- Hazou-as-proctor will approach enemy team/team and ask to verify they still have their word halves
- Hazo will roll Deception. If the enemy seem especially obervant or dangerous he may use a Fate Point to invoke "Tired" or other appropriate aspects or consequences the enemy has, but he's going to try not to use a FP on every single theft attempt.
- From there, there are multiple contingencies and ways this could go
- If they demand he prove he's not Henged, Hazou will pretend to prick his own finger (with a drop of blood or something that looks like one already in place as he approaches them)
- Depending on how difficult/costly genjutsu is, Haruno might use one to aid in Hazou's Deception as a proctor and cover up any inconsistencies.
- If they demand he prove he's not Henged, Hazou will pretend to prick his own finger (with a drop of blood or something that looks like one already in place as he approaches them)
- Hazo will roll Deception. If the enemy seem especially obervant or dangerous he may use a Fate Point to invoke "Tired" or other appropriate aspects or consequences the enemy has, but he's going to try not to use a FP on every single theft attempt.
- Hazou will attempt to get them to hand over their papers so that he can "physically inspect" the material/patterns to make sure they are carrying around the genuine articles and not copies they made
- If they go for this, there are two ways to go from here depending on how much confidence Haruno has in her genjutsu
- Way 1: Hazou uses Deception/sleight of hand to cover switching out word halves with similar sheet of paper (ideally multiple at once if they let him collect all of the enemy team words to examine them at once). Use free tag from Haruno's genjutsu maneuver to help trick them.
- Hazou has prep-prepared multiple sheets of paper with patterns similar to those on his sample copies using his calligraphy skills
- Haruno covers the switch with a genjutsu
- Key question - Is Haruno confident enough in her genjutsu to keep them from noticing that their papers have been switched when they are returned? If so, let's try it. (Haruno may spend Fate points to invoke their 'Tired' or whatever aspects, since we're trying to specifically take advantage of that.)
- Hazou has prep-prepared multiple sheets of paper with patterns similar to those on his sample copies using his calligraphy skills
- Way 2: If Haruno does not believe that her genjutsu could cover something like that:
- Hazou makes the switch using Sleight of hand (aided by genjutsu maneuver for him to tag) and then quickly holds paper(s) up in the air to look at them in the light
- Keiko uses Zephyr's Reach to rip the duplicates out of Hazou's hands (not ordinarily possible, but he won't resist) and float them up into the air, going straight up.
- Hazou Deceptions shock, but "It's your job to get that back".
- While the enemy wall walks or jumps or whatever to retireve papers, Hazou and Sakura and Keiko vamoose
- By the time the enemy realizes they have fakes, the team is long gone.
- Contingency for if enemy tries to word-smith the rules and will show papers but refuses to allow Hazou-proctor to put his hands on them
- Hazou proctor will demand they hold up sheets clearly so he can see them in the light and hold still.
- Use Deception to lay down Aspect, "I better see every inch of this paper or you're DQ'ed" so they hold it loosely.
- Haruno casts genjutsu of "papers burst into flame" to get genin to drop papers
- Fate point on 'Tired'.
- Keiko grabs papers with Zephyr's reach and moves them upwards and to the side
- On a nearby rooftop, Paanda waits having been pre-summoned.
- Paanda grabs papers and then unsummons himself, disappearing with the papers.
- Everyone else vanishes while the enemy genin have their attention occupied
- Hazou proctor will demand they hold up sheets clearly so he can see them in the light and hold still.
- Based on how many times Haruno thinks she can cast her genjutsu before running out of chakra, we may prearrange a meeting with Noburi to 'top her off' after a couple of hours.
- If things go wrong, run away if possible or fight if there is no other resort
- Wear concealing clothing without identification beneath henge
- Hazou's team tries for three word-halves then turn in for the night (or if everyone is low on chakra)
- Suggest that Keiko send Panashe out to monitor proctor building and start following proctors who look like they're headed places to see if they go anywhere interesting, like an exam site.
- Have a word with team Hinata/Kiba/Shino after we all get back
- Tell them about the building the proctors are using as a hub and suggest they uses their talents to scout it out.
- Hazou should get a good night's sleep and not stay up late making seals.
- Yamamoto has shown a lot of barely buried anger and appears to have a serious chip on his shoulder
- This could swiftly become a big problem if we let it go unaddressed. Hazou thinks we need an intervention to try and defuse whatever is going on with him.
- Hazou would like to confront Yamamoto about it and see if they can clear the air
- Has Noburi been able to suss out his issues? Noburi is good at that kind of thing.
- Haru is a non-clan ninja, so maybe he feels like clan kids have it too good? Hazou noticed that he tensed up as soon as Nara brought up buying the seals.
- Ideally would like to convince Haru we are for a world where everyone is treated more fairly and convince him we could be an ally
- Has Noburi been able to suss out his issues? Noburi is good at that kind of thing.
- Don't want to crowd Haru, so think one or at most two should talk to him at once
- Can Noburi agree to try and pry out his issues?
- Then Hazou could follow up with an inspirational speech or something?
- Can Noburi agree to try and pry out his issues?
- Thoughts?
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Vecht
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- Snarksville, Snarkland
How competent a businessman must Taher be to pass up an opportunity worth some money and some more money and some more, minus the cost to pay a developer for a few dozen hours. If only he had the idea that one could set a developer to a task for a few dozen hours and get such an implementation, he could have a thing valued at some money and some more money and some more, minus the cost to pay a developer for a few dozen hours. One could almost say that the idea to apply a developer to such a task is worth precisely some money and some more money and some more, minus the cost to pay a developer for a few dozen hours.
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Vecht
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- Snarksville, Snarkland
Probably needs a contingency for if they don't want to go along with it.
[X] Plan of Attack
- Location
- Brussels
On the topic of Neji and hating him (as a player/reader of this quest): we know from canon that he has the "caged bird" seal on his forehead. He is a tool, he has no agency, even to a higher degree than most ninja. He is a sacrificial meat shield and he literally has no choice but to go along with his clans decisions. See also what happened to his father.
I imagine that situation can really mess someone up...
I imagine that situation can really mess someone up...
Okay, so if we're talking about the seal inventions Hazou and Kagome have worked on so far, specifically the skywalker, when we talk about "value" or "importance" in this scenario, we should be thinking about the question of what the bottleneck was. Or, put another way, the question of what was preventing skywalkers from being invented.
You can bet that there have been literally dozens of bright sealmasters who thought flight was a cool idea, and tried to make it happen. And, like in the real world, that vague idea of something cool is essentially worthless without anything more detailed to work from. But Hazou didn't just come up with the same old "wouldn't it be cool if we could fly" idea. Hell, he didn't even just come up with the idea to use platform to step on in the air; he tried that with five-seal barrier and got shot down because it couldn't be reduced to one seal, which was necessary for the idea to work. No, Hazou found the specific seal that could be used for this. Hazou came up with a very specific idea, using an air dome as a platform to stand upon, triggered by chakra adhesion to allow you to run on air.
(It is worth mentioning that the specificity of Hazou's idea is what made it valuable. It pointed pretty well to a small area of seal-design space, which is what allowed it to actually be translated into reality. Even at the stage where Hazou was thinking of creating something similiar, but with a generic "something to stand on" subbed out for the air dome, it was basically useless.)
So, those dozens of bright sealmasters from earlier? How many knew something like air dome, but didn't think to use it that way? How many could have managed what Kagome did, and altered the air dome to produce smaller domes easily triggered by chakra adhesion, if someone had brought them the idea? Probably not too many. But I'd be surprised if it was less than a couple dozen. So the thing the world was crying out for wasn't the ability to implement the idea. A lot of people had that. Nobody actually knew what specific idea to implement. There was an uncomplicated solution staring civilization in the face. But it took someone noticing it to move the world forward.
There were probably a number of existing ideas that were basically impossible to implement. I can guarantee that someone thought of combining weightlessness and wind. But a seal to make you weightless? Really hard. The idea there is easy, and the bottleneck is the implementation. Similarly with one-seal-barrier. Everyone and their mother knows that that would be great. The idea is everywhere. But the implementation is basically impossible. So the idea is worthless.
But skywalkers? I mean, Kagome's a genius. The implementation there was probably actually really hard, and probably not that many people could have managed it. But literally nobody else had the idea. It was the most important sealing innovation of the century, and nobody else managed it. So, what, then, was the bottleneck? In the past century, there have probably been at least a couple dozen people as good at sealing as Kagome. If Kagome weren't there, Hazou's idea would have been worthless. Until he brought it to someone else, and warfare would still have been revolutionized. Remove Hazou from the picture, though, and nobody comes up with the idea. Skywalkers don't get invented. Remove Kagome, and there are still a bunch of ways the seal can end up in reality. Remove Hazou, and not so much. Then, nobody notices the solution to the problem, and it goes on not getting solved for another few decades until (and this is the really important bit, the bit that makes my argument) someone else comes up with the idea.
There were dozens of people capable of the implementation phase of the seal design. And, over the course of a century or more, none of them managed to make the finished product, because none of them had the idea to use an air dome stuck to your feet that could be toggled by chakra adhesion to allow you to run on air. The idea was the bottleneck there.
Obviously, you need the implementation for the idea to be worth anything. But in order for the ability to implement the idea to have value, you need to have the idea in the first place (and, obviously, the idea needs to be well-specified enough for you to know what implementing it would actually mean). Ability to do a thing, but no idea of what to do, and an idea of what to do but no ability to actually do it, are both worthless on their own. You need both. In our world, ideas are a dime a dozen, and it's basically impossible to notice the ones well-specified enough that they can even be called 'good' or 'bad'. Hell, it's even more difficult to find ideas well-put-together enough to have an idea of what implementing them would actually look like. But an idea that's well-specified, where you can tell what the intermediate problems will be within a few minutes of thinking, and tell that the implementation would be valuable? An idea nobody else would come up with? Calling that worthless seems strange. In general, sure, ideas are mostly worthless. But exceptions exist, and Hazou coming up with Skywalkers is an example of one.
Hazou's idea was the turning point, the thing that handed Leaf the world. It was simple, well-specified, pointed the way to a solution, and allowed people to productively work on the problem. If he had not had it, the problem would not have been solved. Because he had it, he is now the adopted son of one of the most powerful men in the world, and he has handed his new polity unprecedented military power. If Kagome wasn't there, he'd probably still be out in the wilderness grinding his sealing skill to make the prototype. The idea without someone to turn it into an actually working seal would be worthless. But the ability to make the seal was also worthless, when nobody even knew what seal they needed to be trying to make. If you need two elements to manage something important, the fact that you need both doesn't make only one literally worthless.
In short: Hazou's ideas are often pretty crappy. We come up with a lot of stuff and throw it at the wall to see what sticks. Out ideas often get shot down as foolish, or unworkable for some unforeseen reason, or we just forgot something or missed something in the planning stage. Worse, they often don't point to actual solutions to problems. But that one? Skywalkers? Well, when X is the missing element preventing an entire civilization from managing something, and X is added, and then the world fundamentally changes, the X certainly wasn't unimportant.
You can bet that there have been literally dozens of bright sealmasters who thought flight was a cool idea, and tried to make it happen. And, like in the real world, that vague idea of something cool is essentially worthless without anything more detailed to work from. But Hazou didn't just come up with the same old "wouldn't it be cool if we could fly" idea. Hell, he didn't even just come up with the idea to use platform to step on in the air; he tried that with five-seal barrier and got shot down because it couldn't be reduced to one seal, which was necessary for the idea to work. No, Hazou found the specific seal that could be used for this. Hazou came up with a very specific idea, using an air dome as a platform to stand upon, triggered by chakra adhesion to allow you to run on air.
(It is worth mentioning that the specificity of Hazou's idea is what made it valuable. It pointed pretty well to a small area of seal-design space, which is what allowed it to actually be translated into reality. Even at the stage where Hazou was thinking of creating something similiar, but with a generic "something to stand on" subbed out for the air dome, it was basically useless.)
So, those dozens of bright sealmasters from earlier? How many knew something like air dome, but didn't think to use it that way? How many could have managed what Kagome did, and altered the air dome to produce smaller domes easily triggered by chakra adhesion, if someone had brought them the idea? Probably not too many. But I'd be surprised if it was less than a couple dozen. So the thing the world was crying out for wasn't the ability to implement the idea. A lot of people had that. Nobody actually knew what specific idea to implement. There was an uncomplicated solution staring civilization in the face. But it took someone noticing it to move the world forward.
There were probably a number of existing ideas that were basically impossible to implement. I can guarantee that someone thought of combining weightlessness and wind. But a seal to make you weightless? Really hard. The idea there is easy, and the bottleneck is the implementation. Similarly with one-seal-barrier. Everyone and their mother knows that that would be great. The idea is everywhere. But the implementation is basically impossible. So the idea is worthless.
But skywalkers? I mean, Kagome's a genius. The implementation there was probably actually really hard, and probably not that many people could have managed it. But literally nobody else had the idea. It was the most important sealing innovation of the century, and nobody else managed it. So, what, then, was the bottleneck? In the past century, there have probably been at least a couple dozen people as good at sealing as Kagome. If Kagome weren't there, Hazou's idea would have been worthless. Until he brought it to someone else, and warfare would still have been revolutionized. Remove Hazou from the picture, though, and nobody comes up with the idea. Skywalkers don't get invented. Remove Kagome, and there are still a bunch of ways the seal can end up in reality. Remove Hazou, and not so much. Then, nobody notices the solution to the problem, and it goes on not getting solved for another few decades until (and this is the really important bit, the bit that makes my argument) someone else comes up with the idea.
There were dozens of people capable of the implementation phase of the seal design. And, over the course of a century or more, none of them managed to make the finished product, because none of them had the idea to use an air dome stuck to your feet that could be toggled by chakra adhesion to allow you to run on air. The idea was the bottleneck there.
Obviously, you need the implementation for the idea to be worth anything. But in order for the ability to implement the idea to have value, you need to have the idea in the first place (and, obviously, the idea needs to be well-specified enough for you to know what implementing it would actually mean). Ability to do a thing, but no idea of what to do, and an idea of what to do but no ability to actually do it, are both worthless on their own. You need both. In our world, ideas are a dime a dozen, and it's basically impossible to notice the ones well-specified enough that they can even be called 'good' or 'bad'. Hell, it's even more difficult to find ideas well-put-together enough to have an idea of what implementing them would actually look like. But an idea that's well-specified, where you can tell what the intermediate problems will be within a few minutes of thinking, and tell that the implementation would be valuable? An idea nobody else would come up with? Calling that worthless seems strange. In general, sure, ideas are mostly worthless. But exceptions exist, and Hazou coming up with Skywalkers is an example of one.
Hazou's idea was the turning point, the thing that handed Leaf the world. It was simple, well-specified, pointed the way to a solution, and allowed people to productively work on the problem. If he had not had it, the problem would not have been solved. Because he had it, he is now the adopted son of one of the most powerful men in the world, and he has handed his new polity unprecedented military power. If Kagome wasn't there, he'd probably still be out in the wilderness grinding his sealing skill to make the prototype. The idea without someone to turn it into an actually working seal would be worthless. But the ability to make the seal was also worthless, when nobody even knew what seal they needed to be trying to make. If you need two elements to manage something important, the fact that you need both doesn't make only one literally worthless.
In short: Hazou's ideas are often pretty crappy. We come up with a lot of stuff and throw it at the wall to see what sticks. Out ideas often get shot down as foolish, or unworkable for some unforeseen reason, or we just forgot something or missed something in the planning stage. Worse, they often don't point to actual solutions to problems. But that one? Skywalkers? Well, when X is the missing element preventing an entire civilization from managing something, and X is added, and then the world fundamentally changes, the X certainly wasn't unimportant.
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I'd suggest that if we continue this discussion that when referring to "ideas that have had a lot of thought and troubleshooting put into them to the point where they're now essentially just working instructions for how to make a thing happen/exist" that we use the term "blueprints" or "schematics" or whatever so as not to conflate them with "hey wouldn't it be cool if...".
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Indeed! One could almost say that that was literally in the quote you quoted -- that he wasn't willing to pay for the idea (the thought / collection of symbols), but was willing to pay for the execution (the conversion of that mental concept into a real thing)!
*woosh*
Yeah, he's probably been getting more hate than he deserves. It started off as a joke in one of the updates and has picked up some momentum.
Yes, I would agree with this. This is a clearer statement of @Jello_Raptor's new hypothesis, that a "plausible hypothesis" has value, and I granted this in my prior post.
My point is that Hazō simply having this concept float through his brain was not valuable until he paired it with execution. The value that the concept provided was as an enabler for the execution, not as a thing in itself. This is a subtle but important distinction -- I feel that I have repeatedly seen the thread assert "Hazō having an idea is valuable" when what should be asserted is "Hazō enabling someone else's execution is valuable". If Hazō sits in the woods and generates lots of world-shaking ideas while sipping on the Elemental-Nations-equivalent of a mai tai then he is not doing anything valuable. His specifications are useful only when combined with execution. Saying that Kagome "just did the drudge work" is missing the point -- Kagome's contribution to skywalkers wasn't just valuable, it was both necessary and essential. Without Kagome's contribution, Hazō's contribution was without value.