Sorry, I'm not sure how that got through our filters. I would have hoped that it was obviously wrong, though -- the way it was written didn't even make sense, since you were subtracting apples (a skill roll total) from oranges (a number of shifts), and therefore a genin could trivially shut down an S-rank ninja.

Random Newly-Graduated Genin: I put a Block up, preventing Pain from doing anything.

Pain: Haha, you're kidding, right? I'm one of the most powerful ninja in existence! I have 80 in every skill and you have, what, 20?

RNGG: Whatever. Roll it.

Pain: Okay, fine. I attack your fellow student, Al. We both roll average. 80-20 = 60 / 3 = 20 shifts. I explode him.

RNGG: No you don't. My total skill roll is subtracted from your shifts. You accomplish nothing.

Pain: What? Let me see those rules!

No, no , no. I knew what you mean by that. I wasn't confusing rolls for shifts!

What I'm talking about is the change where blocks subtract from the total, and then you get a defensive roll.

How I thought It Went


NINJA A: I am putting a Block on Ninja B from all actions. (Rolls) 40!

NINJA B: I am going to try to punch NINJA C. (Rolls) 45! So... 5 of that gets through.

NINJA C: I am going to dodge that punch. (Rolls) 12! I am crappy at dodging, but even being crappy I can dodge the 5 that gets through the block.

or

NINJA B: I am going to try to punch NINJA A. (Rolls) 45! So... 5 of that gets through.

NINJA A: Now that you got through my Block, I get my normal Parry roll. (65 with Taijtsu)

NINJA A: So I turn 60 of that back on you with Counterattack.

How your rules revision has it go

NINJA A: I am putting a Block on Ninja B for... I guess I have to pick an action. Let's say punching. (Rolls) 40!

NINJA B: (shrug) I back off and throw a kunai at Ninja C, unhindered by your block.

or

NINJA B: Okay, for some reason I am going to punch anyway. (Rolls) 45! Hah, I beat the Block so it all gets through! Suck 45, Ninja C.

NINJA C: Don't I get to dodge?

NINJA B: Nope. You aren't allowed to dodge, and if you were you'd have to dodge the full 45.
 
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Sorry, I'm not sure how that got through our filters. I would have hoped that it was obviously wrong, though -- the way it was written didn't even make sense, since you were subtracting apples (a skill roll total) from oranges (a number of shifts), and therefore a genin could trivially shut down an S-rank ninja.

Random Newly-Graduated Genin: I put a Block up, preventing Pain from doing anything.

Pain: Haha, you're kidding, right? I'm one of the most powerful ninja in existence! I have 80 in every skill and you have, what, 20?

RNGG: Whatever. Roll it.

Pain: Okay, fine. I attack your fellow student, Al. We both roll average. 80-20 = 60 / 3 = 20 shifts. I explode him.

RNGG: No you don't. My total skill roll is subtracted from your shifts. You accomplish nothing.

Pain: What? Let me see those rules! [reads] Aha! Ties go to the attacker, so I deal 1 stress!


EDIT: Added last part about 1 stress.
What about subtracting shifts from shifts instead of rolls from shifts? That's how I was assuming it would work.
 
I was reading the Maneuver rolls and thought for a second that we got to apply them all for free. Then I started laughing at the idea of making an army of civilian children to kill an S-rank ninja. It'd be like this, only waaaay more hilarious.
 
Not really. Basically, she estimates that each member of a top team has ~70 seals and each member of your team has ~35. If you knock off a top team then you each now have ~105, putting you in the lead. On the other hand, if the first team you ambush only has ~30 then you would need to take out another team as well.

Wouldn't other top teams do similar analysis and thus shoot for more if they expect other teams to try to shoot for how much they could have? I doubt any team that's doing a good job of stomping other nearby teams for their seals will not continue doing so well through the end of the event. I feel like this just turns into a positive feedback loop of "more seals is better" although I could definitely be misunderstanding
 
I'd vote deferring leadership unless we come up with a truly kickass plan.

Nara is nearly by definition in-game smarter than us, and we need solid tactical leadership, not zany off-the-wall strategizing. There's also the information-deficit to contend with.

All in all recall that combat is dangerous and we'd prefer not to die. This is likely the single most unpredictable and dangerous scenario (chaotic battle, oops didn't mean to throw that explosive there...) we'll run into both in the Exams and in our lives for the foreseeable future. I'll eat some forgone reputation-boost for the sake of maximizing our safety.

I here drop our daily reminder to consider just letting Nara lead.

This is risky. Nara is unlikely to come up with a plan that simply fails spectacularly, whereas player plans... can. I'm not saying our current set of plans is necessarily flawed in ways that I can see, but that doesn't mean that there aren't flaws we won't be kicking ourselves for later.

The risks are death/maiming/severe loss of reputation with the Leaf teams. The rewards are a spike in reputation. Or we can get a moderate reputatonal reward by being humble/realistic and make it less likely we swing to either extreme of spectacular success/failure.

In terms of meta-level reasoning, QM spoons won necessarily be too depleted because they can crib Nara's eventual plan from the ones you guys have come up with so far. Fair-play also suggests that we won't die or be seriously disadvantaged as a result of handing off authority to an acknowledged in-game genius.

And on the Third Day did Kurkistan implore the Mind of the Hive one last Time, begging them to reconsider their Hubris.

Yeah I don't really have much hope for convincing people to just reject leadership at this point. I'll try one last time though, I guess. Nothing better to do at the moment.

What is the point of this next update? What do we hope to achieve? How does the Hive Mind providing Hazou with a plan (and I do think our current plan is fairly solid, to be clear) help us achieve that hope?

To armchair-psychologize here, I think that we've fallen into a fairly common trap of focusing on problem-solving rather than decision-making. We like optimizing things and laying out hyper-detailed plans. Attempts to move towards a more high-level approach to voting have failed. Most updates are left fairly open-ended, encouraging detail and pulling us away from simple sets of choices. In this case, though, the update ended with a very clear choice: Decide between insisting that Nara lead or leading ourselves; only if we picked Hazou leading would there be any necessity for some detailed plan. We of course dashed after the crunchy optimization problem like a starving man after a Christmas ham.

The question is what it achieves.

In a world where Hazou leads:
Let's say all goes perfectly. We beat up all the other ninja and take all of their stuff and then roll over the finish line with 100+ seals each and no real injuries on our side: huzzah. Let's say it goes mediocre: we beat up a fair number of other ninja and take some of their stuff and then limp over the finish line with 90+ seals each and a few minor injuries on our side: huzzah. Let's say it all goes absolutely horribly: we get our asses handed to us and the bad ninja take our stuff and then we crawl over the finish line with 0+ seals each and maybe a fatality or a maiming or two on our side: boo.

Now let's say that Nara leads:
I think it fair to assume that things will go at least mediocre in this world. Both in-game and narratively there's no reason to think that Nara will lead us to utter disaster. So the floor is pegged at mediocre. Note that I said "huzzah" for both the perfect and mediocre outcomes: this because in the scale of things we (or at least I) give a damn about they're comparable outcomes. Hazou loses some reputation from not being the Fearless Leader that leads Leaf to Glory, gains a bit back for not having an ego, and we all go about our regularly scheduled Chunin Exams without death/maiming.

--

To go back to psychologizing, Let's say that the QMs gave us two choices:
A) Auto-succeed the last part of the "Swamp of Death".
Results:
Small reputation gain among Leaf genin, commanding performance by entire Leaf contingent. Small chance of injury, minimal chance of death.​
B) Roll the dice on the last part of the "Swamp of Death".
Results: (chance of injury/death scales with quality of performance)
-30%: Massive reputation gain among Leaf genin (possibly further), godlike performance by entire Leaf contingent.
-60% Moderate reputation gain among Leaf genin, commanding performance by entire Leaf contingent.
-10% Abysmal failure: Loss of all previously-earned reputation in Leaf, possibly ejection from the Exams.​

Oh look the QMs gave us two choices:
  1. Accept the leadership. Pro: You get to plan the plan for the next update and if you do well your status among your peers goes up. Con: If things go badly you could end up destroying the relationships you've been working so hard to build.
  2. Refuse the leadership. Pro: Low risk. No matter how things go with the ambush, you're not going to be blamed. Con: Low reward. Your relations with the other Leaf genin will improve slightly when they see your practicality and lack of ego, but you'd gain a lot more by taking the lead and succeeding.
1=>High Risk, High Reward
2=>Low Risk, Low Reward

But in this case the "Low Reward" still likely includes "doing very well in this part of the Exams" and "probably not dying". I feel that we'd have a much more robust discussion about the risk vs. rewards given a probabilistic choice-spread, rather than diving straight down the rabbit-hole for option B. I wouldn't be shocked if we went with 'A', given the thread's historical aversion to risk of life/limb. High Risk, High Reward involves the ever-crucial "High Risk" bit, after all.
 
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Need to step away from computer for twenty minutes or so, but I'll think about it. I have no idea how strong Haru is.
From Team Clanless Sparring we know that Haru is slower but a bit stronger than Kiba. Which should tell you that he's probably one of the slowest people here, bar Sakura and maybe Shikamaru/Ino; and his combat skill is also pretty weak, though considering he's up against fuckers like Neji and Akane...
 
And on the Third Day did Kurkistan implore the Mind of the Hive one last Time, begging them to reconsider their Hubris.

Yeah I don't really have much hope for convincing people to just reject leadership at this point. I'll try one last time though, I guess. Nothing better to do at the moment.

What is the point of this next update? What do we hope to achieve? How does the Hive Mind providing Hazou with a plan (and I do think our current plan is fairly solid, to be clear) help us achieve that hope?

To armchair-psychologize here, I think that we've fallen into a fairly common trap of focusing on problem-solving rather than decision-making. We like optimizing things and laying out hyper-detailed plans. Attempts to move towards a more high-level approach to voting have failed. Most updates are left fairly open-ended, encouraging detail and pulling us away from simple sets of choices. In this case, though, the update ended with a very clear choice: Decide between insisting that Nara lead or leading ourselves; only if we picked Hazou leading would there be any necessity for some detailed plan. We of course dashed after the crunchy optimization problem like a starving man after a Christmas ham.

The question is what it achieves.

In a world where Hazou leads:
Let's say all goes perfectly. We beat up all the other ninja and take all of their stuff and then roll over the finish line with 100+ seals each and no real injuries on our side: huzzah. Let's say it goes mediocre: we beat up a fair number of other ninja and take some of their stuff and then limp over the finish line with 90+ seals each and a few minor injuries on our side: huzzah. Let's say it all goes absolutely horribly: we get our asses handed to us and the bad ninja take our stuff and then we crawl over the finish line with 0+ seals each and maybe a fatality or a maiming or two on our side: boo.

Now let's say that Nara leads:
I think it fair to assume that things will go at least mediocre in this world. Both in-game and narratively there's no reason to think that Nara will lead us to utter disaster. So the floor is pegged at mediocre. Note that I said "huzzah" for both the perfect and mediocre outcomes: this because in the scale of things we (or at least I) give a damn about they're comparable outcomes. Hazou loses a bit of reputation from not being the Fearless Leader that lead Leaf to Glory, gains a bit back for not having an ego, and we all go about our regularly scheduled Chunin Exams without death/maiming.

--

To go back to psychologizing, Let's say that the QMs gave us two choices:
A) Auto-succeed the last part of the "Swamp of Death".
Results:
Small reputation gain among Leaf genin, commanding performance by entire Leaf contingent. Small chance of injury, minimal chance of death.​
B) Roll the dice on the last part of the "Swamp of Death".
Results: (chance of injury/death scales with quality of performance)
-30%: Massive reputation gain among Leaf genin (possibly further), godlike performance by entire Leaf contingent.
-60% Moderate reputation gain among Leaf genin, commanding performance by entire Leaf contingent.
-10% Abysmal failure: Loss of all previously-earned reputation in Leaf, possibly ejection from the Exams.​

Oh look the QMs gave us two choices:

1=>High Risk, High Reward
2=>Low Risk, Low Reward

But in this case the "Low Reward" still likely includes "doing very well in this part of the Exams" and "probably not dying". I feel that we'd have a much more robust discussion about the risk vs. rewards given a probabilistic choice-spread, rather than diving straight down the rabbit-hole for option B. I wouldn't be shocked if we went with 'A', given the thread's historical aversion to risk of life/limb. High Risk, High Reward involves the ever-crucial "High Risk" bit, after all.
I will second the choice to let Nara lead. It's why I'll vote for any plan which has Nara leading and is less than 1k words if I'm notified early enough about it.
 
On the subject of Blocks, it looks like we got it right in the example that appears under 'Shifts and Stress' (referenced from the Blocks section itself) but did it wrong in the text of the actual Blocks section. Again, sorry for the mistake.

the example said:
Block
Hazō declares he's standing in the doorway and preventing Alice from passing him ("You...shall not...PAAASSSSS!")
Athletics (19) + 4dF - 2
Rolls: +3, +3, 0, 0
Total: 23

Alice:
Athletics (34) + 4dF
Rolls: +3, -3, +3, 0
Total: 37
Alice wins, 37 to 23! She can pass through the door!


No, no , no. I knew what you mean by that. I wasn't confusing rolls for shifts!

What I'm talking about is the change where blocks subtract from the total, and then you get a defensive roll.

How I thought It Went


NINJA A: I am putting a Block on Ninja B from all actions. (Rolls) 40!

NINJA B: I am going to try to punch NINJA C. (Rolls) 45! So... 5 of that gets through.

NINJA C: I am going to dodge that punch. (Rolls) 12! I am crappy at dodging, but even being crappy I can dodge the 5 that gets through the block.

or

NINJA B: I am going to try to punch NINJA A. (Rolls) 45! So... 5 of that gets through.

NINJA A: Now that you got through my Block, I get my normal Parry roll. (65 with Taijtsu)

NINJA A: So I turn 60 of that back on you with Counterattack.

How your rules revision has it go

NINJA A: I am putting a Block on Ninja B for... I guess I have to pick an action. Let's say punching. (Rolls) 40!

NINJA B: (shrug) I back off and throw a kunai at Ninja C, unhindered by your block.

or

NINJA B: Okay, for some reason I am going to punch anyway. (Rolls) 45! Hah, I beat the Block so it all gets through! Suck 45, Ninja C.

NINJA C: Don't I get to dodge?

NINJA B: Nope. You aren't allowed to dodge, and if you were you'd have to dodge the full 45.

When you declare a block you can do one of two things:

* Prevent many people from doing one thing
* Prevent one person from doing many things (where 'many things' could mean 'anything at all')

Example of the first: "I declare a Block to keep anyone from going through the door"
Example of the second: "I declare a Block to keep Ninja B from doing anything"


Here's how it works in DF, which is the way I thought we had written it here but apparently we fouled up. I'll confirm with the others that this is what we had intended, but I'm reasonably confident they will agree:


Prevent many people from doing one thing:
Alice and Bill are running away from Charlie and Dan, the evil Sound ninja. Alice casts a "Block All the Attacks!" jutsu around Bill, rolling a 36 in the process. Charlie throws a kunai at Bill; if his roll is less than the Block then the attack misses. If it's higher than the block then you resolve the attack normally; Bill still gets to defend or dodge.[1]​


Prevent one person from doing many things:
Alice and Bill are in a warehouse with yakuza Charlie. Alice says "I'm setting up a Block using [skill that seems appropriate] to prevent Charlie from doing anything." Alice rolls a 41. If Charlie wants to run away, or attack someone, or make a persuasive speech (i.e. a social combat attack) then his roll needs to be 41+ or he doesn't get to do the action at all. If it is 41+ then you resolve it normally.


Again, I'll go confirm this.


[1] Note: In the first example the Block was against damage so it doesn't prevent Charlie from attacking. The only difference between preventing the damage and preventing the attack is how many kunai Charlie has in his inventory afterwards.​
 
From Team Clanless Sparring we know that Haru is slower but a bit stronger than Kiba. Which should tell you that he's probably one of the slowest people here, bar Sakura and maybe Shikamaru/Ino; and his combat skill is also pretty weak, though considering he's up against fuckers like Neji and Akane...
Note that that chapter was written before the rules were even close to finalized and I didn't actually make real sheets for the kids, I just picked some numbers that seemed kinda sorta right based on where Hazō was. You can rely on the characterizations and the general actions but take the specific numbers with a grain of salt.
 
Note that that chapter was written before the rules were even close to finalized and I didn't actually make real sheets for the kids, I just picked some numbers that seemed kinda sorta right based on where Hazō was. You can rely on the characterizations and the general actions but take the specific numbers with a grain of salt.
Oh dear. Never mind then, @Briefvoice. Still think Haru should be sent forward since Maneuvers might give us the chance to observe Haru's combat skills.
 
Akane, Lee, Hazō and Neji are without a doubt the heaviest hitters we have. Also Neji and Lee are familiar with each other in combat
 
Why are we making Hazō the leader anyway?

Don't you know our greatest weakness is also our greatest strength? Nara should be the one who assume tactical leadership.
 
aaaaaaaaa everything's on fire the rules are in flux we're all gonna die

[X] Action Plan: No no, I insist (aka Refuse)
 
I will second the choice to let Nara lead. It's why I'll vote for any plan which has Nara leading and is less than 1k words if I'm notified early enough about it.

Ah, cool. Well here's the plan for you!
[X] Action Plan: No no, I insist (aka Refuse)
-Refuse the leadership
—Bring any relevant Goketsu aptitudes to Nara's attention as appropriate, but otherwise let him steer.

Only 18 words! :)
 
*sigh*

[] Action Plan: Hunt like Raptors Without Leading
  • Follow Hunt like Raptors, but have Nara lead instead.
  • Give suggestions as outlined under the Action Plan, but give Nara have veto power.
There, 53 words, go for it. At least this way @Briefvoice's work won't be totally wasted if you do end up voting for another plan.
 
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[X] Action Plan: Hunt like Raptors
[X] Action Plan: Hunt like Raptors Without Leading
 
*sigh*

[X] Action Plan: Hunt like Raptors Without Leading
  • Follow Hunt like Raptors, but have Nara lead instead.
  • Give suggestions as outlined under the Action Plan, but give Nara have veto power.
There, 53 words, go for it. At least this way @Briefvoice's work won't be totally wasted if you do end up voting for another plan.
Mm. I'd rather edit it slightly:

[X] Action Plan: Hunt as Second Raptor
  • Let Nara outline his plan.
  • Suggest significantly different items and/or unmentioned items from Hunt like Raptors
  • Debate and execute the revised plan
 
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