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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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No , I think it would work since the Master Rune of waking can animate stone statues that also have no gears or mechanisms to allow for movement
As I understand it the base Rune of waking searches out something in the shape of a dwarf and tries to move it like a dwarf would. Snorri figured out how to make it work on things shaped like other animals and move them like that animal would. Valma figured out how to make armour suits counts as the shape of a dwarf so it works on them. Then she also figured out how to make it look for mechanisms and operate them in the manner they are meant to. So Valma's version can turn the chain on a bike because it recognises the mechanism and how it's meant to work but it can't move the chain on a flail because it's not part of a mechanism the rune recognizes. In theory with a deeper understanding of the rune it might be possible to make it work on a flail but the version Snorri knows now only works on gronti and mechanisms.
 
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Its in the FAQ
But again, the short list of Master Rune of Wakings ability to animate stuff goes like this from best to worst.

A "body" or physical representation of one. The more accurate the better. > a mechanical mechanism> everything else.

No disneys magic carpet, generic enchanted floating sword shenanigans or other kinds of animated weapons in that ballpark*.

*or at least not easily.
 
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Okay so based on the revised Standing 9 my vote for next turn is 1 action into places of the odd to finish that off as we did one this turn. And the other 2 actions into hearthstones to finish that off. The new bonus only removing one action is fine since most if not all places of the odd materials trigger Soul of Earth. Based on the new proc Zhufazul, whatever we get from 9 and 10 are the only ones that can have action reduced so I would avoid putting any actions into those until the proc triggers.



The winning vote has us doing an odd place this turn which knocks out the 9th.
No, we're doing the eighth. The number on the action shows which one we're doing not how many have been done. The first odd place action was 1/10 not 0/10.
 
But what makes the mechanism a valid moveable thing with leverage?
If we were going to make this I think we'd use muscles rather than chains to enable it to move, since that seems more Gronti like than the mechanism I feel like its pretty likely to work and thats part of the reason that I like the Hydra idea.
A self cocking feature is an incredible waste of an MRune really, that could have been Currents or Thunderbolts or something.
Using muscles to propel I'm pretty sure is not gonna work.

Soul has already talked about this at length. Let me dig up what he said.

That is indeed the jist of it. The crossbow would be able to act as a mobile and independent sentry turret with enough individual agency to know friend from foe and follow orders but needs a mechanism for reloading that it can animate.

Valma was so preoccupied by whether she could she never bothered to ask, "Is this practical?"

You however may find some use for this Rune, but at the very least it gives you research progress + lowers the max amount of actions for a potential Understand a Master Rune option!
Right, but a chain can be thrown or whipped at an enemy and then wrap itself around them binding them and restricting their movement unlike a sword which can only flail and gets no advantage from the ability to move under its own power. Even on the floor a chain could move like a snake meaning it would still be a threat.
what do you mean by chain?
Like chain fed or a chain attached to the projectile?
Either way a mechanism is required, one to run the chain through or to pull the chain in after it got shot.
So how the Rune operates in terms of how much movement it gives an object is different per item. The Rune knows when it's put on things in the shape of a body, in which case the resulting object can move like a stone version of that body. The Armour version of the Master Rune is largely the same.

The difference is in things that don't have a distinct body so to speak. Or at least one the Rune considers such. In this case the range of movement is like an animated toy? As in it can't do things that it has no mechanism for. The parts in question fall under the sway of physics but it can move those parts if it has a way of manipulating them.

If you had just put it on a chain on its own....well maybe? I haven't thought about it in that instance really. But if the chain is part of a greater mechanism, like it is in this hypothetical crossbow I imagine, then it can't do that.
As the Master Rune currently is, yes this is what you have available.

Maybe you can find a way to animate it like something out of a Disney film, who knows? :^)

And yes, it is kind of a waste of time to put it on a crossbow. The Master Rune of Waking, weapon version is a pretty niche weapon rune that we're not going to get a lot of use out of since weapons by default are pretty dang far away from having bodies.

If you make a weapon that is a handle and then it has a bundle of metal snakes affixed to it it might work but I'm extremely dubious on that. Better to just make a staff that is really just a snake that can hold itself rigid.

I don't expect to make actual use out of the Master Rune of Waking's weapon version for centuries, quite possibly millennia, but this isn't a problem in my opinion. It is incredibly niche and I think we've basically gotten the use out of it that's relevant to us, which is a greater understanding of Waking as a whole which has a lot of knock on effects.
 
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The combo listed on Creations of note does not specify that Hearthstones were used as ingredients in any of those runes therefore I think, that was being used as a structural material not as a rune ingredient.

Item in question predates the concept of structural ingredients in this quest.

Soulcake might have easily forgotten about, or more likely, Hearthstones contribution information might be hidden behind its research.

That we got a T4 out of it was probably the result of a very good roll on the unlock a combo combined with Snorri's speciality in Talismans.
The material science research is always about how to use it as a rune ingredient so this wouldn't affect it anyway.

We don't know anything for certain, that's the problem.

The point of material research in the first place is to find out what some resource us best used for, what is its impact or contribution to the end result, what are its hidden bonuses and effects, or are there even any.
 
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Item in question predates the concept of structural ingredients in this quest.

Soulcake might have easily forgotten about, or more likely, Hearthstones contribution knowledge might be hidden behind its research.
I'm pretty sure the one time we've used them in a centerpiece manner with the Hearthward amulet was as essentially structural stuff, they never got put into a rune so to speak and used as a reagent. The runes don't care that much what they're put on, unless its Gromril.

And materials research has always been about its use as a runic ingredient. Structural stuff doesn't really have much to do with it.
 
Here's a reason to do material research. We have effectively infinite amounts of the materials so when we get bulk orders like the Valkyrie armor we can use them as reagents freely thus significantly improving what we make.
 
@soulcake, do you think Master Yorri would have a better idea on how to incorporate the MWaking (Weapon)? Because it's kinda irksome that we won't be able to use it much for now. Maybe in tandem with the Rune of Forged Limb, but...
 
Using muscles to propel I'm pretty sure is not gonna work.

Soul has already talked about this at length. Let me dig up what he said.







And yes, it is kind of a waste of time to put it on a crossbow. The Master Rune of Waking, weapon version is a pretty niche weapon rune that we're not going to get a lot of use out of since weapons by default are pretty dang far away from having bodies.

If you make a weapon that is a handle and then it has a bundle of metal snakes affixed to it it might work but I'm extremely dubious on that. Better to just make a staff that is really just a snake that can hold itself rigid.

I don't expect to make actual use out of the Master Rune of Waking's weapon version for centuries, quite possibly millennia, but this isn't a problem in my opinion. It is incredibly niche and I think we've basically gotten the use out of it that's relevant to us, which is a greater understanding of Waking as a whole which has a lot of knock on effects.
Well thats kinda the question is, whether these muscles would count as a mechanism.
If we made a sword that also included an arm as part of it, we'd expect that the arm would be able to swing right?
So we could also expect the necks on these snakes to bend and strike?
And does it really matter which way around it goes? Can't we assume that Snorri would do it the better way if there is one, unless we specify that he doesn't?
Here's a reason to do material research. We have effectively infinite amounts of the materials so when we get bulk orders like the Valkyrie armor we can use them as reagents freely thus significantly improving what we make.
Rule of Pride. And what I was asking was which runes do we expect will be affected because we've seen before sometimes the answer is non of them.
If it turns out that the hearthstones are an upgrade for Rune of the furnace thats effectively no use to bulk orders like the Valk guards.
 
@soulcake, do you think Master Yorri would have a better idea on how to incorporate the MWaking (Weapon)? Because it's kinda irksome that we won't be able to use it much for now. Maybe in tandem with the Rune of Forged Limb, but...
I mean personally I have no issue with not being able to use a rune since it's niche, that just means we don't have a use for that niche at this time. Its really much more important for its benefit to knowledge and research. And as mentioned there are runes that are less of a niche use which are outright more suitable to most weapons. We're basically staring at the basic fact that by definition niche means it doesn't have a lot of use cases.

It might be useful for a hypothetical dreadnought-esqe dwarf, as they wouldn't be able to fire or use a weapon with much dexterity, but even that isn't very clear cut since if they have a semi-prosthetic body they can just pick something up and smack someone with it given the fidelity and precision of Forged Limb.

Well thats kinda the question is, whether these muscles would count as a mechanism.
If we made a sword that also included an arm as part of it, we'd expect that the arm would be able to swing right?
So we could also expect the necks on these snakes to bend and strike?
And does it really matter which way around it goes? Can't we assume that Snorri would do it the better way if there is one, unless we specify that he doesn't?
If we could make a staff or flexible weapon that is basically just a snake we hold the tail of I expect it'd probably work, but at that point we're not talking about a chain of links or any other such thing that'd I'd actually call a flail and I'm also very dubious that such a weapon could have the kind of destructive omph found in other more straightforward weapons so I'm not very interested in making it.

As an example we could make an axe with Conduction, Fate, Striking to empower the wielder, and basically skip all these shenanigans to get a similar effect and save a rune slot we can use for a more generally usable weapon rune.
 
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Well thats kinda the question is, whether these muscles would count as a mechanism.
If we made a sword that also included an arm as part of it, we'd expect that the arm would be able to swing right?
So we could also expect the necks on these snakes to bend and strike?
And does it really matter which way around it goes? Can't we assume that Snorri would do it the better way if there is one, unless we specify that he doesn't?

Rule of Pride. And what I was asking was which runes do we expect will be affected because we've seen before sometimes the answer is non of them.
If it turns out that the hearthstones are an upgrade for Rune of the furnace thats effectively no use to bulk orders like the Valk guards.
Rule of Pride comes into play when repeatedly using the same master rune or combo. Because it's a bulk order we will not be using master runes regardless and just because a few runes are prevalent in the order doesn't mean every suit is the same combo. We also have quite the slew of materials to use as reagents if we bothered to actually research them.

More over when making simpler runic items the rule of pride isn't as big a deal as far as Snorri is concerned. He had a whole conversation about it with Fjolla and Dolgi in one of the really early chapters.

Edit: And as for the whole, "it might only be useful for an irrelevant rune" argument I could just as easily say that it could be a fantastic reagent replacement for one of our master runes. There's no way to know without researching it. So let's just do that already so we know.
 
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but at that point we're not talking about a chain of links or any other such thing
We threw those out at the very start of this conversation.
If we were going to make this I think we'd use muscles rather than chains to enable it to move,
When we say flail we mean a flail in function and not at all in form.
And I agree it won't have the same power as a normal weapon with a conventional MRune (Except MGrimnir I guess) the point of it was to exploit the combat precog of fate and guidance of striking to literally bend around enemy defense.
It feels like the problem here is that we didn't communicate the concept correctly?
Rule of Pride comes into play when repeatedly using the same master rune or combo. Because it's a bulk order we will not be using master runes regardless and just because a few runes are prevalent in the order doesn't mean every suit is the same combo. We also have quite the slew of materials to use as reagents if we bothered to actually research them.

More over when making simpler runic items the rule of pride isn't as big a deal as far as Snorri is concerned. He had a whole conversation about it with Fjolla and Dolgi in one of the really early chapters.
Master crafting armour that will be reserved to the greatest of the Valarie Guard in order to guarantee that new holds are adequately defended are anything except not a big deal.
The number is not the sum total of suits, but ones specially made for their eldest and most veteran Matrons. The foundational core of the future Valkyrie Guard in these future-Holds. The Cult will hold the suits in their vaults until such a time they are needed.
The point with the conversation wasn't to completely ignore the rule of pride, it was that you shouldn't let the rule of pride prevent you from doing jobs that absolutely must be done when there is only one way to do it nor should you do jobs in stupid ways to accommodate it. And even then he acknowledged that that was his personal interpretation and some conservatives would disagree with him on it.
This isn't a problem with the orders, because there are enough different combinations that Snorri has a lot of room to change things up and use different combos while not risking duplicates (and also he doesn't use MRunes), not that he churns out tonnes of identical items for it. If you think that the benefit of mat sci is that we can always used a single improve rune on all the items then we significantly limits the range of combos he can do.
 
We threw those out at the very start of this conversation.

When we say flail we mean a flail in function and not at all in form.
And I agree it won't have the same power as a normal weapon with a conventional MRune (Except MGrimnir I guess) the point of it was to exploit the combat precog of fate and guidance of striking to literally bend around enemy defense.
It feels like the problem here is that we didn't communicate the concept correctly?

Master crafting armour that will be reserved to the greatest of the Valarie Guard in order to guarantee that new holds are adequately defended are anything except not a big deal.

The point with the conversation wasn't to completely ignore the rule of pride, it was that you shouldn't let the rule of pride prevent you from doing jobs that absolutely must be done when there is only one way to do it nor should you do jobs in stupid ways to accommodate it. And even then he acknowledged that that was his personal interpretation and some conservatives would disagree with him on it.
This isn't a problem with the orders, because there are enough different combinations that Snorri has a lot of room to change things up and use different combos while not risking duplicates (and also he doesn't use MRunes), not that he churns out tonnes of identical items for it. If you think that the benefit of mat sci is that we can always used a single improve rune on all the items then we significantly limits the range of combos he can do.
Thank you for completely missing my fucking point. I said the Rule of Pride wasn't as big a deal when dealing with bulk orders like this.

And it wouldnt be just a single rune if we actually researched the rest of the materials. Obviously we don't have the time for it before the Valk order is up but in general.
 
We threw those out at the very start of this conversation.
When we say flail we mean a flail in function and not at all in form.
And I agree it won't have the same power as a normal weapon with a conventional MRune (Except MGrimnir I guess) the point of it was to exploit the combat precog of fate and guidance of striking to literally bend around enemy defense.
It feels like the problem here is that we didn't communicate the concept correctly?
Probably in part yes, since I wasn't entirely sure what you wanted. My point any way is that we could get the results of combat precog of fate and striking without going through all this business with Waking, meaning we can use a different master rune that means we have more power and combat precog.
 
Let's focus on the more immediate stuff, like the Valkyrie Guards' order, instead of the MWaking Weapon. It was a passing curiosity, and we might be able to use it in time.
 
Out of curiosity, how many dwarfs are in the Brotherhood of Karag Dron? A couple hundred, perhaps? We personally know of six senior members of the Brotherhood, and Alric Thungnisson is known to be another member.
 
Thank you for completely missing my fucking point. I said the Rule of Pride wasn't as big a deal when dealing with bulk orders like this.

And it wouldnt be just a single rune if we actually researched the rest of the materials. Obviously we don't have the time for it before the Valk order is up but in general.
If the rule of pride wasn't a problem, why do you think we've had so many arguments about the Rune of Prosphesis?
Probably in part yes, since I wasn't entirely sure what you wanted. My point any way is that we could get the results of combat precog of fate and striking without going through all this business with Waking, meaning we can use a different master rune that means we have more power and combat precog.
Kinda. A non Flail wouldn't be able to literally bend around a shield though so it actually wouldn't be giving the same result. And I'm not sure that with a non Waking Flail Snorri would have the skill/precision to manage it in the same way.
The point of this for me was never power, it was 'Whats the best possible use for waking on a weapon.'.
So taking Waking out of it... Yes, Currents or MStriking would probably technically an improvement, but that is kinda missing the point of the thought exercise. Erm, for clarity I think I proposed this combo during the Rune trade but it got no attention so Alratran may see the Hydra Flail proposal as something entirely separate.
 
If the rule of pride wasn't a problem, why do you think we've had so many arguments about the Rune of Prosphesis?

Kinda. A non Flail wouldn't be able to literally bend around a shield though so it actually wouldn't be giving the same result. And I'm not sure that with a non Waking Flail Snorri would have the skill/precision to manage it in the same way.
The point of this for me was never power, it was 'Whats the best possible use for waking on a weapon.'.
So taking Waking out of it... Yes, Currents or MStriking would probably technically an improvement, but that is kinda missing the point of the thought exercise. Erm, for clarity I think I proposed this combo during the Rune trade but it got no attention so Alratran may see the Hydra Flail proposal as something entirely separate.
The problem with the forged limbs is that there would be too much overlap between Runesmiths and the Cult of Valaya in the realms of healing people. Not the Rule of Pride.

And here's the conversation between Snorri and Fjolla and Dolgi I mentioned;
"Fjolla!" you shout back at them, "recite the Rule of Pride for me, up to it!"

"No more than one item may carry the same combination of runes?" she shouts back in confusion.

"Was that a question beardling? Don't know the rules of the career you're entering, do you? Why, old Hroki would be rolling in his grave if he were here to witness this!" You shout back.

Despite their best efforts, you can hear them whispering to each other despite being a good 7 meters ahead of them.

"Oh? Cavorting with your fellow apprentice? Well Dolgi, spit it out then!"

"Master, the Rune of Pride says for each creation to be unique, bu-but we saw you engrave the same three runes on five different axes."

You slow down and turn to look at them both, eyes narrowed.

Best to let them stew and think they did something foolish, never seen anything funnier than a beardling try and backtrack. But alas, the moment can't last forever.

"Why now, was that a question that was a quarter of the way to halfway decent coming from one of you? My, my, maybe the both of you will make your first rune in this century if you keep it up! Well, I will grace you both with the answer...after you recite all of the rules of the runes to me, in unison! Up to it!"

They begin shouting the second you finish turning your head back around. Already you can hear Dolgi stutter and force the two of them to restart.

More than enough time to get to where you were going, and more importantly to come up with an answer that would make sense to them.=



"- Nor do they copy other Runesmith's work except as an apprentice!" they finish together just as the both of them reach the bottom of the hill where you were waiting.

"Bah! I could've done that chant a good 5 minutes faster than the both you! Let that be a lesson, coordination is key when working with more than just yourself, don't go in with the ingredients for a rune of warding when your partner was chiselling a rune of preservation, you understand?"

"Yes master!" they shout back.

"Bah! Now, you're question. Sit down and listen good beardlings, because this is important," you say seriously while directing them to a bare rock.

"The rule of pride is tricky and takes a fair bit of knowhow to understand and navigate. For example, did you count the number of Runes of Light in your hold? Probably not, but you can be damn sure that there were far more light runes than there were runesmiths. Does that mean whoever chiselled all those runes broke the Third Rule? Yes and no. In the literal sense yes they did, but unless you're a puritan, most other runesmiths have as well. On the other hand, using up every combination of the light rune is a waste of ingredients and ironically ends up with you getting closer and closer to breaking the Third Rule with little to show for it. Imagine wasting a rune to light a latrine, just so you could say you didn't break the Third Rule. And only ever making one Rune of Light is about as useful as a babe in the mine. Utter nonsense. Now, before you ask, yes, the apprentice technically can go past that one use rule, but no dwarf in their right mind is gonna pay for an apprentice to do something. So do you see the issue?" you say, waiting for one of them to reply.

"It's a question of doing what's practical and what was told to us?" Fjolla replies, brows scrunched up in confusion.

Heh, there's the bit of Hroki she inherited. Not the brow thanks the Ancestors, Hroki could bludgeon a dwarf with that, no she had the same crinkle whenever she got confused.

"Not horrendous, but still worse than terrible," you praise her, " It's a question of what's good for the hold and what's good for honouring the ancestors. You do good by aiding the hold, all those Runes of Light pay off in the long run, less fuel wasted on torches, less dirt to clean, more consistency, things like that. But following the tenets of our guild honours the ancestors, and some would argue that is more important. Personally, I'm of the mind that helping the hold prosper also honours the ancestors, and a hold that lasts longer and grows more prosperous also honours the ancestors. So me redoing a Rune of Light dozens of times ends up honouring the ancestors in its own way. Now, not every runesmith believes that, and you'll learn over time that there are some smiths you can share that opinion with, and others its best to keep your trap shut to keep the peace. Understand?"

"Yes master!" they shout.

Feh.

"Now!" you say loudly, "that doesn't mean we can't find a way to follow the tenet in another way. The Rule of Pride as some runesmiths reckon is meant to remind us that our work is an art form, a divine gift used to aid our people passed down from Thungni and Grungni. Whose gift we can partake in by virtue of our blood relation. So, these smiths will strive to make true works of runic excellence, something neither of you will get to do for a century or three just yet, as a tribute to Thungni. In their eyes, this thereby lets them follow the tenets of the Rule of Pride, for they've now made a work of art they can be proud of. What does this mean?"

"There-There are multiple ways dwarfs see things?" Dolgi says, cheeks as bright as his fiery mane of hair.

"Bah! And a good many dwarf will argue their way is the only way. Thungni knows when this whole debacle will get settled. Either way, even if the puritans end up being right, I'm going into the Underearth head held high no matter what they say. Because no matter what, I can say with clean conscience that I helped our people, maybe not in the way they want it to be done, but it's not like I was throwing around Master Runes to beardlings. Now, onto a lighter topic. Look over there garazi, what do you see?"
 
I don't really see the point of a Flail when we have Zharrgal and Barak Azamar. We can just beat their shield until it melts. It's not like we have to be conservative about energy.

Hypothetically... i think the M.Waking on weapons is more likely to result in Mechashift weapons. But that's just a gimmick, given how difficult they would be to use, and how few of them there would be.
 
Kinda. A non Flail wouldn't be able to literally bend around a shield though so it actually wouldn't be giving the same result. And I'm not sure that with a non Waking Flail Snorri would have the skill/precision to manage it in the same way.
The point of this for me was never power, it was 'Whats the best possible use for waking on a weapon.'.
So taking Waking out of it... Yes, Currents or MStriking would probably technically an improvement, but that is kinda missing the point of the thought exercise. Erm, for clarity I think I proposed this combo during the Rune trade but it got no attention so Alratran may see the Hydra Flail proposal as something entirely separate.
I'm coming at it from the perspective that the combination of Waking and Fate and Striking makes the weapon strike unerringly, whereas something like Conduction and Fate and Striking gives that skill to the wielder as that is the point of both Fate and Striking when put together on top of giving them Conduction. Striking guides their blows and enhances their skill.

Basically, I'm not really convinced of the value of the result of the thought exercise. We could do it, if we designed the weapon in a certain way, and that's valuable to know but that's about it in terms of valuable results of the exercise in my opinion.
The problem with the forged limbs is that there would be too much overlap between Runesmiths and the Cult of Valaya in the realms of healing people. Not the Rule of Pride.
This is not quite correct. The issue stems from two tenets:

Cult of Valaya:
Always provide aid to a wounded or ailing Dwarf.

And the Cult of Thungni's Rule of Pride.

It is basically pulling one way of "help a lot!" with the Valayan's, and pulling the other way with the Cult of Thungni's "Don't devalue your work/make great works!".

There was no issue of overlap brought up.

There's also another separate issue entirely within the Cult of Thungni about the optics of being seen to compel other runesmiths to get in on Arm Them in a way that signals that we think our vision is superior to Thungni's.
 
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I'm coming at it from the perspective that the combination of Waking and Fate and Striking makes the weapon strike unerringly, whereas something like Conduction and Fate and Striking gives that skill to the wielder as that is the point of both Fate and Striking when put together on top of giving them Conduction. Striking guides their blows and enhances their skill.

Basically, I'm not really convinced of the value of the result of the thought exercise. We could do it, if we designed the weapon in a certain way, and that's valuable to know but that's about it in terms of valuable results of the exercise in my opinion.

This is not quite correct. The issue stems from two tenets:

Cult of Valaya:
Always provide aid to a wounded or ailing Dwarf.

And the Cult of Thungni's Rule of Pride.

It is basically pulling one way of "help a lot!" with the Valayan's, and pulling the other way with the Cult of Thungni's "Don't devalue your work/make great works!".

There was no issue of overlap brought up.

There's also another separate issue entirely within the Cult of Thungni about the optics of being seen to compel other runesmiths to get in on Arm Them in a way that signals that we think our vision is superior to Thungni's.
What? The way I understood it was that there was too much overlap in the way of healing people but it was tolerable if it was just Snorri and his apprentices. The real issue would be if he started to spread how to make the limbs to other Runesmiths and thus cause a make it an issue between the Runesmith guild and the Cult of Valaya as organizations.

Like the issue between the merchants guild and messengers guild and who's job it is to transport dwarves who want to travel somewhere. (I think that was the issue. It was a conversation between Snorri and his brother and Snorri suggested that that sounds like the grounds for a whole new guild.)
 
What? The way I understood it was that there was too much overlap in the way of healing people but it was tolerable if it was just Snorri and his apprentices. The real issue would be if he started to spread how to make the limbs to other Runesmiths and thus cause a make it an issue between the Runesmith guild and the Cult of Valaya as organizations.

Like the issue between the merchants guild and messengers guild and who's job it is to transport dwarves who want to travel somewhere. (I think that was the issue. It was a conversation between Snorri and his brother and Snorri suggested that that sounds like the grounds for a whole new guild.)
The conflict between the merchants/messengers was because of money, they both want the income from transporting people. The Valayan's aren't for profit (I don't think), they don't care who helps Dawi as long as they get the help they need. The issue is they would push too hard trying to get limbs mass produced creating friction when the runesmiths push back because of the rule of pride.

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This is probably why we gained favour with the Valayans. Because we are helping the Dawi of Dum
 
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What? The way I understood it was that there was too much overlap in the way of healing people but it was tolerable if it was just Snorri and his apprentices. The real issue would be if he started to spread how to make the limbs to other Runesmiths and thus cause a make it an issue between the Runesmith guild and the Cult of Valaya as organizations.

Like the issue between the merchants guild and messengers guild and who's job it is to transport dwarves who want to travel somewhere. (I think that was the issue. It was a conversation between Snorri and his brother and Snorri suggested that that sounds like the grounds for a whole new guild.)
Basically because of the aid all ailing or injured dwarves tenet, the Valayan's would be happy with more help, but as Jreengus says it'd cause problems on the runesmith end.
 
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