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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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a bit of discussion that cropped up when the Rune of Forging was mentioned!

Rune of Forging
This rune ensures the war machine is free from imperfections and therefore deadly accurate. In order to inscribe it, an Engineer must strike the machine with a hammer and a Runesmith must recite a special litany with each blow, making it a weeks-long ritual.

That makes me wonder if there are some potential runes out there that are very hard to discover because they require there being other people in the room while the runes are being made. Runes that require multiple runesmiths acting simultaneously, or runes that require that some other craftsman is practicing their craft as the rune is made, or even, more adventurously, runes that need a spellcaster to be casting a spell or creating an enchantment on the target object.

On a tangentially related note, I wonder if any Brana have inspired by runecrafting to try making their own magic items.

I'm eh, a little worried for the Dwarfs in the MoM in a few millennia, or whenever it was the ogre migration came. They'll be pretty entrenched by that point, but still....literally the entire ogre race rampaging through in a feeding frenzy is nothing to scoff, and even if Dawi are short and stout I doubt they'll be off the menu. Not to mention, even if we handled it well with the Brana, there's no guarantee that the eastern dwarfs will react well to a race of colossi inhabiting what they'll likely see as their mountains by the time they come across them.

In the shorter term the problem is likely to be that the original greenskin homeland is apparently in the east of what would become the Dark Lands. In canon they migrated west as a result of the same Slann induced vulcanism that caused the Time of Woe in general, which they were particularly hard hit by.

As a warning, below I'm positing a particularly revisionist take on Warhammer history, which I'm not asserting to be the gospel truth.

Now, the greenskins don't currently have metalworking, and probably aren't an existential threat to the dwarven colonists, but the reverse very much isn't true. This means that the first sustained contact between dwarves and greenskins will be very different. In canon, the relatively small number of chaos dwarves was able to go full imperialist on them, able to enslave entire tribes and transplant them to labour in their industries (which would presumably have included agriculture before they and the Slann destroyed the Dark Land's environment). This even continued after escaped slaves brought the secrets of working metal, including steel, back to their homelands.

The second chapter comes, of course, when the greenskins came west at the start of the Time of Woe, and immediately attacked the dwarves. (As a side note first contact between humans and the Karaz Ankor is recorded to have happened in the first decade of the Time of Woes as well). Now, think of the context here. The greenskins are usually presented as unreasoning savages, but it actually makes sense for them to immediately attack the dwaves. From their experience dwarves are the bogeymen, slave taking imperialists with an unending hunger for green flesh to throw into their furnaces, both literally and figuratively. Importantly, they won't know much about dwarven culture; as these are the free tribes who will only know what small numbers of escaping slaves told them - we're more than a thousand years before the black orc lead rebellion where vast numbers of slaves cast off their chains at once. In this situation it's very understandable for greenskin refugees fleeing climate change to attack what looks like their historic oppressors.

And so they did, and from that moment when they kicked the dwarves at their lowest moment the die was cast and relations between dwarves and greenskin were always going to be unrelentingly hostile, an attitude that the dwaves passed onto their later human clients, and the greenskins internalised.

Here though, none of that may happen. While the dwarves have experiences of negative contacts with other sapients in the form of the beastmen and Fimir, they also have positive contacts with the Brana and elves, and they also have experience from their own Hashut cultists that every race can have bad apples and that doesn't damn all their kin by association. The lesson it does seem to teach is that the problem is Chaos rather than otherness, as that's the common thread.

This means that I can see the dwarves, if they encounter the greenskins from a position of strength as they're likely to here, being willing to deal with them peacefully. Whether that will be reciprocated or not is another matter, but the greenskins won't have a epoc long history of being raided for slaves for slaves by dwarves. The fact that the chaos dwarves could use the greenskins not only as slaves, but as slave soldiers, and that much later on people manage to negotiate and trade with the Hobgoblin Khanates for passage, and the coexistence of gnobblars and ogres, indicate that it might not be completely impossible.

A big factor as to what happens could be related to how popular the hill dwarf lifestyle becomes. If the dwarf population keeps growing and the proportion of them happy to live in and on the surface of a hill keeps going up then the dwarves may want to settle the future dark lands themselves, rather than just the mountains around it. If the Brana keep expanding, their presence would make securing large amounts of the surface easier if the dwarves can build them towers to nest in*.

There's also the question of humans. We don't know when they moved up into the Dark Lands from what were apparently their original equatorial homelands. They may not have been present until Settra's conquests across the Crystal (later Bitter) Sea, descendants of armies or colonists left behind after Nehekhara fragmented upon his death. This was a period when the Plain of Bone was called the Plain of Plenty (presumably later soil erosion revealed the dragon skeletons?). If that's the case humans won't be showing up there for another couple of thousand years.

* thinking about dwarven colonisation efforts makes me mourn Dolgi's decision to maintain a monopoly on the Rune of Featherweight all the more. It had such transformative potential if it had been made available for widespread development and adoption that will now probably never occur because Dolgi wanted to ensure that his already extraordinarily wealthy family would be even richer.
 
I'm eh, a little worried for the Dwarfs in the MoM in a few millennia, or whenever it was the ogre migration came. They'll be pretty entrenched by that point, but still....literally the entire ogre race rampaging through in a feeding frenzy is nothing to scoff, and even if Dawi are short and stout I doubt they'll be off the menu. Not to mention, even if we handled it well with the Brana, there's no guarantee that the eastern dwarfs will react well to a race of colossi inhabiting what they'll likely see as their mountains by the time they come across them.
Yah I am think that the ogre invasion will be the major crisis of that time period and will require the full might of eastern dwarves and large parts of karak anzkor to be leveraged to deal with it, which will make it harder to deal with the sundering with all the best troops out east dealing with orges trying to claim the mountains of mourne

This means that I can see the dwarves, if they encounter the greenskins from a position of strength as they're likely to here, being willing to deal with them peacefully. Whether that will be reciprocated or not is another matter, but the greenskins won't have a epoc long history of being raided for slaves for slaves by dwarves. The fact that the chaos dwarves could use the greenskins not only as slaves, but as slave soldiers, and that much later on people manage to negotiate and trade with the Hobgoblin Khanates for passage, and the coexistence of gnobblars and ogres, indicate that it might not be completely impossible.

A big factor as to what happens could be related to how popular the hill dwarf lifestyle becomes. If the dwarf population keeps growing and the proportion of them happy to live in and on the surface of a hill keeps going up then the dwarves may want to settle the future dark lands themselves, rather than just the mountains around it. If the Brana keep expanding, their presence would make securing large amounts of the surface easier if the dwarves can build them towers to nest in*.

There's also the question of humans. We don't know when they moved up into the Dark Lands from what were apparently their original equatorial homelands. They may not have been present until Settra's conquests across the Crystal (later Bitter) Sea, descendants of armies or colonists left behind after Nehekhara fragmented upon his death. This was a period when the Plain of Bone was called the Plain of Plenty (presumably later soil erosion revealed the dragon skeletons?). If that's the case humans won't be showing up there for another couple of thousand years.

* thinking about dwarven colonisation efforts makes me mourn Dolgi's decision to maintain a monopoly on the Rune of Featherweight all the more. It had such transformative potential if it had been made available for widespread development and adoption that will now probably never occur because Dolgi wanted to ensure that his already extraordinarily wealthy family would be even richer.
I kind of feel like greenskins who don't u know act like greenskins aren't really greenskin then, and this just doesn't feel like in greenskin character at all, and the wiki says this
However, the Greenskins' tendency for warfare has created a division within their society that has ensured their race shall never reach such heights. Since the dawn of their history, the Greenskins have been plagued by a never-ending series of civil wars that has consumed millions of their own kind, for such is their desire for battle that Greenskin tribes have been known to fight each other just as much as they fight the other civilised races of the Old World
Since the dawn of history they have been like this, while their won't be black orcs which is pretty big they will still be greenskins at the end of the day, and there thirst for war
also the hobogoblins are basically skaven who are orcs, that will constantly backstab at the first chance Hobgoblin
gnobbler are described as slaves of orges and only fled their because it was between that and the chaos dwarves Gnoblar
well they already are settling the dark land Thori home is in the crater of gazul haunt and sure they are on the walls of the crater but they still aren't in the mountains so we are already seeing that happening
seems to be a canon conflict according to the wiki
According to Warhammer Armies: Tomb Kings from 6th Edition, the Plain of Bones was known as the Plains of Plenty in Nehekhara and were under the control of King Alcadizaar the Conqueror of Khemri[2a], but this region was already described as 'parched' long before the Great Catastrophe.[1a] Nevertheless, Warhammer Armies: Tomb Kings of 8th Edition indicates that the armies of Nehekhara had marched into the Dark Lands even before the rise of Settra.[5a]

Yah it sad but I think the rune research path we got set upon by dolgi runes might be a path to further even lighter weight runes which we can then release allowing other runesmiths to craft regular brana armour circumventing that
 
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Alratan there is a lack of comprension of greenskin biology and society in your version.

First greenskins have very bad record keeping, it being almost only oral and recalled by actual mad schaman (so this idea of them connecting the dawi to the fallen ones is possible only for the one they actualy caged), second the first greenskins come from the southlands, as made clear by the savage orcs.

The greenskins where in the old world way before the time of woes, even before the war of vengeance the dawi litteraly hunted grenie for sport.

The times of woes convinced some greenskins to move from the east into the west that's all.

The darklands are still livable by greenskin,(khan empire) since they do live everywhere, even the chaos waste.

Peace is NEVER an options when dealing with greenskins, they did not attack Dawi because they cared about how oppressed other greenskins were or had been (empaty for them is so rare to be almost non existant) they litteraly live to figth and kill and beat stuff, without chaos corrupting them.

We are speaking of a race that reproduce whilst being killed.

The ONLY solutions to greenskins is absolute massacre that has to be repeated evry so often.

I have studied their so called culture quite a whyle and belive me they never assaulted a Karak because they feared the dawi inside because they migth enslave them.

for example look at Grom, a very big waagh against a people they did not largely interacted with and had no history of racial hatred, they killed and burned until they could and would have drown ulthuan had they be left alone.
Your theory could very well work if we where dealing with wow orcs, not warhammer one.
 
Alratan there is a lack of comprension of greenskin biology and society in your version.

First greenskins have very bad record keeping, it being almost only oral and recalled by actual mad schaman (so this idea of them connecting the dawi to the fallen ones is possible only for the one they actualy caged), second the first greenskins come from the southlands, as made clear by the savage orcs.

The greenskins where in the old world way before the time of woes, even before the war of vengeance the dawi litteraly hunted grenie for sport.

The times of woes convinced some greenskins to move from the east into the west that's all.

The darklands are still livable by greenskin,(khan empire) since they do live everywhere, even the chaos waste.

Peace is NEVER an options when dealing with greenskins, they did not attack Dawi because they cared about how oppressed other greenskins were or had been (empaty for them is so rare to be almost non existant) they litteraly live to figth and kill and beat stuff, without chaos corrupting them.

We are speaking of a race that reproduce whilst being killed.

The ONLY solutions to greenskins is absolute massacre that has to be repeated evry so often.

I have studied their so called culture quite a whyle and belive me they never assaulted a Karak because they feared the dawi inside because they migth enslave them.

for example look at Grom, a very big waagh against a people they did not largely interacted with and had no history of racial hatred, they killed and burned until they could and would have drown ulthuan had they be left alone.
Your theory could very well work if we where dealing with wow orcs, not warhammer one.

There's lots of ambiguity in Warhammer history, but there's more than one piece of evidence that the greenskins entered the Old World in strength during the Time of Woe and not before. While the greenskins themselves don't keep histories, other races do; and it's those sources, I believe that tell us that greenskins largely migrated from their original homelands in the east of the Dark Lands in response to the Slann messing up the climate. We have secondary sources telling us for example, that the greenskins never reached Norsca, and that they reached the dwarf surface settlements in what would have become Kislev later than they did further south - and that was after the Time of Woe.

Small numbers of greenskins may have migrated earlier so they may have been present in some places, but there clearly wasn't a sustained significant presence. The fact that the Darklands can support a greenskin population after climate change doesn't mean that it couldn't support a much larger one before it; and it would be those who were suddenly in excess of its carrying capacity that would have migrated.

People can manage to deal with greenskins. That's why one of the most famous mercenary generals selling his services to human clients is a Hobgoblin Khan with orc and goblin troops serving beneath him. It's why caravans can cross the Hobgoblin Khanate and trade with them. It's why there are other orc and goblin mercenary units that will serve alongside human armies.

While greenskins are warlike, that doesn't mean it's impossible to deal with them peacefully. And yes; Grom attacked the elves. Of course he did. He was the product of the very greenskin culture that I was talking about the interactions with the chaos dwaves producing.

Also, remember that a lot of what we read about them is probably written by their enemies. The descriptions of hobgoblins so they're compulsive irredeemable backstabbers, the most evil and untrustworthy race on the planet. We're also told that Hobgoblin Khanate is the largest empire in the world and has a singular ruler in the Great Khan. Those are basically incompatible, and given that the later is an observable fact, it makes it likely that the former is just propaganda written by their enemies.

The fact that there are such major cultural differences between hobgoblins and other greenskins makes me suspect that Fantasy greenskins don't have a strongly genetically determined culture, but that they're influenced by the culture they sprout in. I'm very sceptical of it being based on any kind of genetic essentialism. I can see aggression being innate, but the details of its expression seems much less likely.

Greenskins may need to die to reproduce, but that's doesn't need to be a violent death. They seem to age and die like other mortals.
 
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There are ways to make Greenskins less of a plague, and something more interesting to write about and interact with.

Maugan Ra wrote a very interesting take on Greenskins that don't only worship Gork and Mork in his quest Of Wizards and Winter, and it's a pity that tribe got killed on sight.
 
People can manage to deal with greenskins. That's why one of the most famous mercenary generals selling his services to human clients is a Hobgoblin Khan with orc and goblin troops serving beneath him. It's why caravans can cross the Hobgoblin Khanate and trade with them. It's why there are other orc and goblin mercenary units that will serve alongside human armies.

While greenskins are warlike, that doesn't mean it's impossible to deal with them peacefully. And yes; Grom attacked the elves. Of course he did. He was the product of the very greenskin culture that I was talking about the interactions with the chaos dwaves producing.

Also, remember that a lot of what we read about them is probably written by their enemies. The descriptions of hobgoblins so they're compulsive irredeemable backstabbers, the most evil and untrustworthy race on the planet. We're also told that Hobgoblin Khanate is the largest empire in the world and has a singular ruler in the Great Khan. Those are basically incompatible, and given that the later is an observable fact, it makes it likely that the former is just propaganda written by their enemies.

The fact that there are such major cultural differences between hobgoblins and other greenskins makes me suspect that Fantasy greenskins don't have a strongly genetically determined culture, but that they're influenced by the culture they sprout in. I'm very sceptical of it being based on any kind of genetic essentialism. I can see aggression being innate, but the details of its expression seems much less likely.

Greenskins may need to die to reproduce, but that's doesn't need to be a violent death. They seem to age and die like other mortals.
I am gonna need a source on the general and also
The Hobgoblin Empire or the Hobgoblin Khanate of the Eastern Steppes is one of the largest and most powerful Greenskin Empires in the entire world, ruled by their legendary ruler Hobgobla-Khan. Like all empires that are formed within the large, trackless steppes of the east, the Hobgoblin Empire is not really a nation, but rather a large confederation of Hobgoblin Clans all holding fealty to Hobgobla-Khan.[1a] The empire was said to have been founded by the legendary and near mythical Khengai Khan.[4a]

Such is the extent and power of the empire that 90% of caravans going through the Silk Road which passes through their domain never reach their destination.[2a]

His warriors are a major, ever-present threat for caravans, 90% of which never complete the Silk Road safely.[2a]


90 percent of the carvens never make it through, it sounds like from that they don't trade at all but more like run the gauntlet on the edge of their territory and pray that any hobogoblins clans they meet are more focused on something else then wanting their stuff. Also from the second it line it makes it eveb more clear, that they don't really trade at all or it more likely extremely rare for them to trade about as likely as skaven trading with humans

Literally everyone hates them, every other greenskins hates them for being backstaber, chaos hate them, cathy hates them, the fact the wiki never even suggest something to contradictory to the idea of them being terrible backstabber make it very likely that they are just that. Also they aren't a empire in traditional sense at all, they are a confederation with most of the tribes doing their own things most of the time and warring with each other and then occasionally the khan will have them to something, he also pretty mythical so I wonder if he even real or more like a huge myth, and if he is real then no one gonna backstab him cause it not in their self preservation which is what they focus on, skaven are massive backstabber but they still have a massive empire even more advanced than hobo khantes so it perfectly possible to have a race be backstabbers and still have a empire. They are explicitly called sub species by the wiki and have very large physical difference between them and other greenskins which discount the idea that it culture that determine it and not genetics.
 
Any group that's as treacherous and prone to backstabbing as the hobgoblins are claimed to be wouldn't be able to create an maintain something like a tribal confederation under a single Khan that lasts for centuries through multiple changes of leader and with multiple powerful local enemies to exploit internal divisions.

It's like the dark elf problem writ large.
 
Any group that's as treacherous and prone to backstabbing as the hobgoblins are claimed to be wouldn't be able to create an maintain something like a tribal confederation under a single Khan that lasts for centuries through multiple changes of leader and with multiple powerful local enemies to exploit internal divisions.

It's like the dark elf problem writ large.
you wouldn't think the skaven would and who says it the same khan it could just be different hobo goblins all claiming to be the khan and might make right with enforcing confredation, the first rule is self preservation with them so they are forced to ally to deal with the other threat, and since everyone wants them dead they are forced to mantian a loose confredation, I doubt cathy would be able to project much past the great bastion since it a massive steppe, the chaos dwarves have no intrest(and are kind of allied with them) and other than chaos in the north they don't have any other threat. Also who says they don't exploit it all the time, they are greenskin they breed like rabbit which makes it nearly immpsible to wipe them out once they are a major force in the region. So you can wipe out a massive army and another one appears. It still what the lore says at the end day and if you think that dumb bring it up with gw
 
Alratan the greenskins came from the soutland, they arrived in kislev later because is on the opposite side of the planet, had they come from the east they would have been way closer and arrived earlier.
They already are in the old world anyway and got purged multiple times, in cannon the only reason way there were a lot more in the east was because there were not enough dawi to kill them.
Let me correct on grenies reproduction, the always reproduce, a violent dead makes them reproduce faster.
Orcs do not dies of old age, goblin do get senile but is ET cannon.
There is no cultural impact on greenskin for being enslaved by the chaos dwarf, there is no single culture that allows that.
The culture of greenskins is more differenciated by the tecnological level and the enviroment they live in, only beastmen and skaven are less geneticaly ingluenced due to them.
Let me be very clear here, a Goblin CAN NOT be anything more than a thieving creul backstabber.
An orc MUST think about killing stuff 90% of his time.
Hobgobla-kan, has never proved to be part of a line of succesion.
Sure the hobgoblin have multiple tribal leader, but consider the fact that succesion means backstabbing the precedent boss.
This are a kind of beast that would start killing eachoter in the middle of a battlefield because the enemy is to far away.
Nothing is exagerations about how terrible they are, suicide bombers are so common because whilst they die they can flip of orcs.
You have decided that the skaven the greenksins and the dark elf are not functional society in a fantasy universe.
Aside from the whole suspension of disbelief fact these species are completly different from the human one they reproduce faster (or do not work to survive) and act in a different enviroment.
 
Rule 2: Don’t Be Hateful - This kind of language is not acceptable.
This is a Dawi quest, even suggesting grenies should not be treated like the dirt they are and always will be is pointless anyway, since we are already killing them like pests.
 
What I am curious about is when we run into then pre maw orges it gonna to be very interesting to see what they are like and to also meet early cathy, ind civilizations, and see how they interact and how much we influence each other. Also bet their gonna be some massive trade network forming in the future gonna from east to west across dwarf civilizations.

Edit: I bet we are gonna get along great with ind they basically have from our perspective living ancestor gods walking around
 
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Alratan the greenskins came from the soutland, they arrived in kislev later because is on the opposite side of the planet, had they come from the east they would have been way closer and arrived earlier.

I've never seen a source saying the greenskins migrated north. Only saying they migrated west from their original homelands in the east of what became the Darklands. That migration was explicitly caused by Slann induced vulcanism and resulting climate change that drove (some of) them away from there, which is why it took so long for them to show up.

It's humanity that migrated north from their equatorial homelands.

Also, the varying tech level of the greenskins is because of them being enslaved by the chaos dwarves. The chaos dwaves taught them to work steel, and that knowledge was brought make home by escaping slaves and was then spread by the migrating tribes, but some tribes rejected that knowledge and stayed in the Stone Age.
 
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Sorry, this has probably already been addressed, but there are nearly 2 thousand pages in this thread with 25 posts on each page. Could someone please tell me if Snorri has already made the prosthetic eye for that dwarf that lost her legs? Were the sensory runes Yorri taught him enough for him to accomplish that? I know it was supposed to be a disgrace if he took too long to accomplish that, and it's been a while since he made the legs.
 
Sorry, this has probably already been addressed, but there are nearly 2 thousand pages in this thread with 25 posts on each page. Could someone please tell me if Snorri has already made the prosthetic eye for that dwarf that lost her legs? Were the sensory runes Yorri taught him enough for him to accomplish that? I know it was supposed to be a disgrace if he took too long to accomplish that, and it's been a while since he made the legs.
No, not yet. Will be created automatically at turn 49.
 
Well yes, but that's quite unlikely. Tbh, I would rather just get it out of the way and get the Princess seeing immediately.

The only reason I can see to do it is to fish for a combo for later compression into a Master Rune that we might want to later apply to Snorri's own eye, and that feels pretty tenuous, particularly given we haven't traded for the kind of runes we might use in such a combo.
 
The only reason I can see to do it is to fish for a combo for later compression into a Master Rune that we might want to later apply to Snorri's own eye, and that feels pretty tenuous, particularly given we haven't traded for the kind of runes we might use in such a combo.
We got the option to make the eye a couple of turns ago though, before we lost the eye. Now, we have a reason to fish for combos, but at the time, not really.
But also, a combo we want on the eye of a runelord, might not be the same thing we want on Orra's eye.
 
We got the option to make the eye a couple of turns ago though, before we lost the eye. Now, we have a reason to fish for combos, but at the time, not really.
But also, a combo we want on the eye of a runelord, might not be the same thing we want on Orra's eye.

Oh, I fully agree, but now there is a slightly greater possible motivation to do it.

What this does make me think though, is that if we are going to do some research that may improve the Rune of Forged Eye, such as Mind of the Things or the Secrets of Light in the next few turns, the Turn 49 deadline for the Princess' eye is a good reason to do it sooner rather than later, so that its of the highest quality we can relatively easily make it without investing actions.
 
Stop: no more of this
no more of this
Peace is NEVER an options when dealing with greenskins, they did not attack Dawi because they cared about how oppressed other greenskins were or had been (empaty for them is so rare to be almost non existant) they litteraly live to figth and kill and beat stuff, without chaos corrupting them.

We are speaking of a race that reproduce whilst being killed.

The ONLY solutions to greenskins is absolute massacre that has to be repeated evry so often.

I have studied their so called culture quite a whyle and belive me they never assaulted a Karak because they feared the dawi inside because they migth enslave them.
This is a Dawi quest, even suggesting grenies should not be treated like the dirt they are and always will be is pointless anyway, since we are already killing them like pests.
While advocating for violence against a fictional group is not inherently against the rules, calling for repeated massacres while declaring that a species should be "treated like the dirt they are and always will be" is a violation of Rule 2: Don't Be Hateful. As such, @Franksson has received the standard 25-point infraction and 3 day threadban.

Everyone else, carry on.
 
Rule 5: Don’t Make it Harder For Us to Do Our Jobs
...Greenskins are literally deranged mass murderers with a culture based on who killed more backed by twin gods of violence and mostly worshiping the living embodiment of violence among the chaos gods, they arent a species, they arent a race, they are a caricature of the "it's ok to slaughter" bad guy trope in RPGs
 
There are ways to make Greenskins less of a plague, and something more interesting to write about and interact with.

Maugan Ra wrote a very interesting take on Greenskins that don't only worship Gork and Mork in his quest Of Wizards and Winter, and it's a pity that tribe got killed on sight.
I think the canon existence, in mainline Warhammer of the forest goblins who worship a Spider God instead of gork and mork should lend some credit to greenskins being able to change their beliefs even without reliance on fanon. Such I don't think is easy for them but it does indeed seem possible.
 
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