RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

[soulcake]

A friendly reminder to new questers to read the Informational threadmarks and FAQ specifically before asking a question. Links below:

Frequently Asked Questions
Here is the Detailed Rune List
Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

 

[TempestK]

Can we please drop the subject?

 

[DragonParadox]

...Greenskins are literally deranged mass murderers with a culture based on who killed more backed by twin gods of violence and mostly worshiping the living embodiment of violence among the chaos gods, they arent a species, they arent a race, they are a caricature of the "it's ok to slaughter" bad guy trope in RPGs

Click to shrink...

It's not about what you vote to do, it is about the language you use in presentation. Dehumanizing any sentient being like that rises uncomfortable echoes to say the least.

 

[Goricnac]

It's not about what you vote to do, it is about the language you use in presentation. Dehumanizing any sentient being like that rises uncomfortable echoes to say the least.

Click to shrink...

I can understand that, it just always feel weird to me to apply that to a fictional species intentionally designed to be as guilt free to murder as possible.

 

[DragonParadox]

I can understand that, it just always feel weird to me to apply that to a fictional species intentionally designed to be as guilt free to murder as possible.

Click to shrink...

Sufficiently violent and aggressive language will still trigger those associations no matter how justified something may be IC. There is a world outside the warhammer fantasy fandom with actual people in it and I think it is better for us to moderate how we speak of fictional beings than for some of them to be turned off or even disturbed by things read with no or little context. I mean imagine if one of those posts glorifying the destruction of X species was the first thing someone read about warhammer, of which they know nothing else...

Doesn't seem very welcoming does it?

 

[soulcake]

I feel the mod message has made it abundantly clear, but this isn't the place to debate the ethics or validity of Greenskin existence and the morality of killing every last one of them. Even if it was, it wouldn't give you Carte Blanche to get weird about how good it would be or how morally righteous/correct it is to do it or otherwise wax poetic about it.

Please don't be weird about discussing genocide. A simple enough litmus test is replacing whatever fictional race you're discussing with any real marginalized group and if it comes off as even remotely xenophobic/bigoted tone it down. (Don't quote me on that I'm not a mod, but it's what I do.)

Im not here to argue about whether my method is appropriate or not either. Its not meant to do anything more than serve as a self check to see if you're likely breaking rule 2.

 

[The3rdCorinthian]

I can understand that, it just always feel weird to me to apply that to a fictional species intentionally designed to be as guilt free to murder as possible.

Click to shrink...

I think it's because of the inherent Implications of creating a species that are intentionally designed to be guilt free to murder.

That being said... I don't think peaceful Greenskins are on the Table. It's like that spiderman meme, they don't want to cure cancer, they want to turn people into dinosaurs have a huge sprawling fight. If it happens, honestly great, I just find it unlikely.

Edit: Didn't see Souls post until after I posted. Apologies.

 

[Binge-Reader]

Generally I find the fact this discussion happens proof the thread has ran out of things to talk about atm.

 

[The3rdCorinthian]

Generally I find the fact this discussion happens proof the thread has ran out of things to talk about atm.

Click to shrink...

Personally I' interested in figuring out why exactly the Runesmith chant was so different this time, or rather what differences the changes to the chant mean.

Biggest one I can see is that instead of it being 'The work of eternity wrought onto the mortal plain', it's 'A fragment of eternity Brought onto the mortal plain'.

Obvious part of that is the Gronti-thing, but Im not sure that's the whole of it. That I felt was Barak Azamar drawing more and more on the deep magic and dredging something up with it. With the chant, I feel its more closely tied to Skarrenbakraz, since it's the same chant involved in all our other creations but taken to 11.

As a side not, unless its been brought up before, @soulcake what does the whole thing with how long runes last mean. Is that only in battle, or do all our creations have a specific shelf life, and if so how are you going about handling that?

 

[IronFist]

As a side not, unless its been brought up before, @soulcake what does the whole thing with how long runes last mean. Is that only in battle, or do all our creations have a specific shelf life, and if so how are you going about handling that?

Click to shrink...

Presumably Runesmiths have techniques to recharge or restore old items that aren't functioning as well due to age.

I'm also interested in something Soulcake said in Divided loyalties, about Snorri being one of the Runelords that was more interested in radical experiments and advancing the art.
That already seems to be the happening, and we've already seen the first clash with another Runelord during the last Rhunkalbrogg.

The question is, what do you think will be the thing that goes too far?
Alchemy?
Creation of many waystones?
Study of the Winds?

 

[The3rdCorinthian]

I think it will be when we reach the point of a hypothetical 4 rune material.

I mean, its probably going to be earlier than that,likely something to do with Elves and claims we're risking giving up secrets, but a 4 rune material is one I see as likely to piss people off as being 'Attempting to be equal to/surpass the ancestors'.

 

[soulcake]

@soulcake what does the whole thing with how long runes last mean. Is that only in battle, or do all our creations have a specific shelf life, and if so how are you going about handling that?

Click to shrink...

Runes require regular maintenance. Regular being decades, centuries in some cases, but maintenance all the same. Thankfully from what I can gather about lore maintenance seems pretty universal, with a few exceptions, so you don't necessarily need to know how a Rune works exactly to keep it running.

More short term, Runes use the Winds of Magic so they can run out of charge and need time to gather enough energy to function again as seen with your smelters.

 

[Alratan]

Presumably Runesmiths have techniques to recharge or restore old items that aren't functioning as well due to age.

I'm also interested in something Soulcake said in Divided loyalties, about Snorri being one of the Runelords that was more interested in radical experiments and advancing the art.
That already seems to be the happening, and we've already seen the first clash with another Runelord during the last Rhunkalbrogg.

The question is, what do you think will be the thing that goes too far?
Alchemy?
Creation of many waystones?
Study of the Winds?

Click to shrink...

You know, anything we do while Thungni is still here and he doesn't even comment negatively on arguably has his tacit approval. That's a reason to be as radical as possible without really crossing the line while he's still here.

I think it will be when we reach the point of a hypothetical 4 rune material.

I mean, its probably going to be earlier than that,likely something to do with Elves and claims we're risking giving up secrets, but a 4 rune material is one I see as likely to piss people off as being 'Attempting to be equal to/surpass the ancestors'.

Click to shrink...

I don't think people would object to a four rune material. I do think some would object to sharing with the elves without explicit Ancestral approval. What would be ideal is if we could somehow do something that would demonstrate how valuable collaboration with the elves would be without crossing the line, and make it something interesting enough that it attracts Thungni's attention so he backs doing so.

I'm not sure how we'd do that though.

 

[Burned_Cookie]

You know, anything we do while Thungni is still here and he doesn't even comment negatively on arguably has his tacit approval. That's a reason to be as radical as possible without really crossing the line while he's still here.

Click to shrink...

And then we take one step to far, he bobs us on the head with a rolled up newspaper and our reputation is in shambles forever.

Lets take things at the pace we are going, it's been working so far.

 

[Woltaire]

The question is, what do you think will be the thing that goes too far?
Alchemy?
Creation of many waystones?
Study of the Winds?

Click to shrink...

making metalsmith be able to make gromli?
mythril? possibly breaking the rule of 3
trying to change rune smithing culture to share secrets and advanced rune smithing as art?
if I had to bet I think it gromli cause that what pissed them off last time, alchemy since that cross the line or straddles the line into full on magic stuff and rule of 4 at the end of the day due to our action with gromli their gonna be a group of conservative who are gonna get pissed at us no matter what

And then we take one step to far, he bobs us on the head with a rolled up newspaper and our reputation is in shambles forever.

Lets take things at the pace we are going, it's been working so far.

Click to shrink...

hypothetical though what we that even be that we realistically might do? the only thing I could think of is working with elves on magic stuff but that happened otl

 

[IronFist]

and make it something interesting enough that it attracts Thungni's attention so he backs doing so.

Click to shrink...

The challenge is doing so in the next 50 years, before he leaves.

 

[Alratan]

And then we take one step to far, he bobs us on the head with a rolled up newspaper and our reputation is in shambles forever.

Lets take things at the pace we are going, it's been working so far.

Click to shrink...

Thungni discovered and learned how to channel magic to make runes in the first place, back when dwarves were incapable of using magic. He did possibly the most radical thing a dwarf has ever done. He was then part of or allowed the setting up personality cults dedicated to himself and his family, which is also pretty amazingly radical.

I'm not sure it's possible for Snorri to do something more radical than Thungi has done, and I doubt he's hypocritical enough to call anyone else over it. I think it's pretty likely the conservative runesmiths are just projecting their own prejudices.

The challenge is doing so in the next 50 years, before he leaves.

Click to shrink...

Azakit and the Rune of Sorcery may be possible to develop in the next five turns.

 

[MrHobbit]

I think it will be when we reach the point of a hypothetical 4 rune material.

I mean, its probably going to be earlier than that,likely something to do with Elves and claims we're risking giving up secrets, but a 4 rune material is one I see as likely to piss people off as being 'Attempting to be equal to/surpass the ancestors'.

Click to shrink...

...Why would they object? The Brotherhood of Karag Dron was founded to surpass the Rule of Three. Durin the Lost was the one who founded the Brotherhood and it is led by Alric Thungnisson.

The Rule of Three is a thing that Runesmiths find regrettable, that there is no material capable of holding more than three. Finding a material that can hold four Runes would be lauded.

Thungni discovered and learned how to channel magic to make runes in the first place, back when dwarves were incapable of using magic. He did possibly the most radical thing a dwarf has ever done. He was then part of or allowed the setting up personality cults dedicated to himself and his family, which is also pretty amazingly radical.

I'm not sure it's possible for Snorri to do something more radical than Thungi has done, and I doubt he's hypocritical enough to call anyone else over it. I think it's pretty likely the conservative runesmiths are just projecting their own prejudices.

Azakit and the Rune of Sorcery may be possible to develop in the next five turns.

Click to shrink...

And Thungni is an Ancestor God. He knows far more about Runes than we ever will. He is also intelligent enough to recognize how his children reacted to the things he did, ie the Rule of Pride. Just because Thungni founded the Guild, it does not mean there is a reason to yeet everything Runesmiting is about out of the window and completely undwarfify the craft.

How exactly are we going to do that? I can see getting some of the opening stages of Akazit done, but the fucking Rune of Sorcery? Something that was invented by Kurgaz, a Snerra-tier Savant, nearly one and a half thousand years into the alliance between the Karaz Ankor and Ulthuan?

Don't mind me, I'm just calling bullshit on that.

 

[Dutch]

I'm also interested in something Soulcake said in Divided loyalties, about Snorri being one of the Runelords that was more interested in radical experiments and advancing the art.
That already seems to be the happening, and we've already seen the first clash with another Runelord during the last Rhunkalbrogg.

The question is, what do you think will be the thing that goes too far?
Alchemy?
Creation of many waystones?
Study of the Winds?

Click to shrink...

Wouldn't be surpised if that is one of the core differences of the whole "northern radical" distinction. Working to advance the art of runesmithing rather than the runework itself.

Thungi ruled that sharing knowledge in good faith is a-okay. I say we make use of that to our utmost ability. Every Rhunkalbrogg we'll share new findings.

Alchemy, Deep Magic, Waystones, the Winds, Starmetal, etc. You name it.

We'll call it Snorri's discovery hour.

Let it excite our supporters, enrage our detractors and put everyone else to sleep.

 

[The3rdCorinthian]

I don't think people would object to a four rune material

Click to shrink...

i think theyd object to us doing something that they see as 'surpassing' the ancestors. 4 rune metal was just the thing that came to mind as being something they might see as doing just that.

I'm not as familliar on warhammer Fantasy as most, I just like it more than 40K

I don't think people would object to a four rune material. I do think some would object to sharing with the elves without explicit Ancestral approval. What would be ideal is if we could somehow do something that would demonstrate how valuable collaboration with the elves would be without crossing the line, and make it something interesting enough that it attracts Thungni's attention so he backs doing so.

I'm not sure how we'd do that though.

Click to shrink...

I mean, if we bring up the winds and show we have an inroaad into greater understanding of how runes work, such might happen.

I also think he might be vaguely interested in just what the FUCK we did on the anvil of Earth, if we can figure it out.

 

[Alratan]

And Thungni is an Ancestor God. He knows far more about Runes than we ever will. He is also intelligent enough to recognize how his children reacted to the things he did, ie the Rule of Pride. Just because Thungni founded the Guild, it does not mean there is a reason to yeet everything Runesmiting is about out of the window and completely undwarfify the craft.

How exactly are we going to do that? I can see getting some of the opening stages of Akazit done, but the fucking Rune of Sorcery? Something that was invented by Kurgaz, a Snerra-tier Savant, nearly one and a half thousand years into the alliance between the Karaz Ankor and Ulthuan?

Don't mind me, I'm just calling bullshit on that.

Click to shrink...

Snorri may have the disadvantage of not being a Snerra tier savant, but he has the advantage that he can consult with one, Snerra herself (who is developing ways of manipulating magic and teaching Snorri how she did it), can also draw on insight from the Brana who have their own take on the Winds of Magic, and he has experiences that Kurgaz is very unlikely to have done, such as living in the era before the creation of the Great Vortex and channeling s significant fraction of the first ever Storm of Magic through his body and soul. He also lives in the Far North where magical phenomena are stronger and more common.

He may well also have better tools than Kurgaz did, allowing him to take more risks thanks to his armour, and, if the Windsight eye works out, being able to see what he's working on in a way Kurgaz would never have been able to. We may also have tools or equipment made of T5 Runemetal before the next five turns are out, although at that point that is a long shot. I don't think that the non-Ancestor Gods ever achieved that.

Depending on what happened with Thungi, it may well be possible for Snorri to know more about Runes than he currently does. Thungni may never have found a solution to Durin's Consternation. It seems possible that Snorri eventually will by part of finding at least a partial answer.

And I do think it's important that the very concept of runesmithing would have previously been fundamentally undwarven. I doubt that he would personally disapprove of one of his descendants replicating his feat and discovering a way for dwarves to do something that was previously thought to be impossible for dwarves, to be undwarven.

 

[MrHobbit]

Snorri may have the disadvantage of not being a Snerra tier savant, but he has the advantage that he can consult with one, Snerra herself, can also draw on insight from the Brana who have their own take on the Winds of Magic, and he has experiences that Kurgaz is very unlikely to have done, such as living in the era before the creation of the Great Vortex and channeling s significant fraction of the first ever Storm of Magic through his body and soul. He also lives in the Far North where magical phenomena are stronger and more common.

He may well also have better tools than Kurgaz did, allowing him to take more risks thanks to his armour, and, if the Windsight eye works out, being able to see what he's working on in a way Kurgaz would never have been able to. We may also have tools or equipment made of T5 Runemetal before the next five turns are out, although at that point that is a long shot. I don't think that the non-Ancestor Gods ever achieved that.

Click to shrink...

Did you even read my post? Kurgaz would have already been pretty damn old by the time he created the Anvils of Doom, probably as old if not older than Kragg the Grim. The Karaz Ankor had been working with Ulthuan for nearly fifteen centuries by the time he created the Anvil of Doom.

So, Kurgaz probably had age on his side, experience with Elgi on his side, and natural born skill on his side.

How the ever loving fuck are we supposed to recreate what took one and a half thousand years of working with Ulthuan in a measely five decades?

 

[Mr. Idiot]

You know I think the "Gift" and how much of it you have matters less as you get deeper into your career, otherwise it kinda feels... Not good.

 

[Neroj]

i think theyd object to us doing something that they see as 'surpassing' the ancestors. 4 rune metal was just the thing that came to mind as being something they might see as doing just that.

I'm not as familliar on warhammer Fantasy as most, I just like it more than 40K

Click to shrink...

There is absolutely no rule or bias against surpassing the Ancestors. They just don't believe it possible. Manage it anyway and you become a legend.
The rule of 3 also isn't a religious commandment, it's a physical constant. Breaking it is like a scientists discovering how to go faster then light. It'll get you a nobel prize and several chapters in the history books, not an inquisition.

 

[Alratan]

Did you even read my post? Kurgaz would have already been pretty damn old by the time he created the Anvils of Doom, probably as old if not older than Kragg the Grim. The Karaz Ankor had been working with Ulthuan for nearly fifteen centuries by the time he created the Anvil of Doom.

So, Kurgaz probably had age on his side, experience with Elgi on his side, and natural born skill on his side.

How the ever loving fuck are we supposed to recreate what took one and a half thousand years of working with Ulthuan in a measely five decades?

Click to shrink...

Because we don't know it took one and a half thousand years of working with Ulthuan. For all we know it took a few decades after the first runelord radical enough to try started working on it.

Also, we don't know when the Rune of Sorcery was invented. We know when the first Anvil of Doom was made, but according to the dwarf timeline the limiting factor there wasn't the invention of the Rune of Sorcery, it was the Kurgaz's discovery of how to melt gromril* (and presumably) cast the anvils that was what made making them possible. I don't think canon even tells us that he discovered the Rune of Sorcery.

Also of note, Kurgaz wasn't a runelord. He was described as a Master Runesmith when he died.

* which Snorri actually has invented with the adamant smelter, demonstrating that he can equal Kurgaz's feat.

 

[The3rdCorinthian]

There is absolutely no rule or bias against surpassing the Ancestors. They just don't believe it possible. Manage it anyway and you become a legend.

Click to shrink...

I mean, we did just that. Or at least equalling them.

It resulted in someone screaming at us about how we were a glory hungry pretender using butchered and mangled runes.

Hence why I don't really agree with this particular bit. Sure, Dwarves might believe the first bit, but the second is so ingrained that the act of doing so inspires immediate rejection because, well, you just can't have, there must be something wrong with it.