RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

[soulcake]

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Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

 

[tri2]

How the ever loving fuck are we supposed to recreate what took one and a half thousand years of working with Ulthuan in a measely five decades?

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Simple, with the Snorri Method, Work Harder.

 

[Alratan]

Also, the elves in canon withdrew from contact with the dwarves between the start of the Civil War in -2,749 IC and -2,188 IC when Caledor II reopened trade and diplomatic relations. As the first Anvil was made in -2,000 IC, it wasn't made after fifteen uninterrupted centuries of working with them. They'd only been back in contact for less than two centuries, in which time the runesmiths would have to get comfortable working with and learning from elven mages again.

The treaty of friendship between the elves and dwarves was only sworn in canon in -2,839 IC anyway. There was contact between -4,119 IC when they founded their first colonies in the Old World and -2,749 IC, but it probably started off quite infrequent. Unlike the Norscan colony which is on a Kraka's doorstep, the major elven colonies on the rest of the Old World's coasts are a long way away from the canon dwarf holds in the World's Edge Mountains.

 

[MrHobbit]

Because we don't know it took one and a half thousand years of working with Ulthuan. For all we know it took a few decades after the first runelord radical enough to try started working on it.

Also, we don't know when the Rune of Sorcery was invented. We know when the first Anvil of Doom was made, but according to the dwarf timeline the limiting factor there wasn't the invention of the Rune of Sorcery, it was the Kurgaz's discovery of how to melt gromril (and presumably) cast the anvils that was what made making them possible. I don't think canon even tells us that he discovered the Rune of Sorcery.

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It is the only number we have though, and there aren't any mentions of the Rune of Sorcery being used anywhere else. The wiki does mention that Kurgaz is the one who invented it, but it is the wiki so it is of questionable reliability.

Depending on what happened with Thungi, it may well be possible for Snorri to know more about Runes than he currently does. Thungni may never have found a solution to Durin's Consternation. It seems possible that Snorri eventually will by part of finding at least a partial answer.

And I do think it's important that the very concept of runesmithing would have previously been fundamentally undwarven. I doubt that he would personally disapprove of one of his descendants replicating his feat and discovering a way for dwarves to do something that was previously thought to be impossible for dwarves, to be undwarven.

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Given that all Runesmiths have a connection to Thungni, I suspect there is no Rune that a Runesmith learns that Thungni is not aware of. I also doubt that your supposition about Durin's Consternation is correct as well. Thungni is connected to Runes and vice versa, if there is anyone who understands how they work it would be him. Well, and the Old Ones too I guess.

And that is not a reason to use said knowledge to do undwarf-like things. There is nothing wrong with expanding our repertoire of Runes, it's the callous treating of secrets that is undwarf like. Which I know is the main goal of this.

Also, the elves in canon withdrew from the Old World between the start of the Civil War in -2,749 IC and -2,188 IC when Caledor II reopened trade and diplomatic relations. As the first Anvil was made in -2,000 IC, it wasn't made after fifteen centuries of working with them. They'd only been back in contact for less than two centuries, in which time the runesmiths would have to get comfortable working with and learning from elven mages again.

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The way I read it, Ulthuan proper lost contact with it's colonies, which would have had a great collection of lore regardless. Hence why Caledor II had to smack down the Elthin Arvan's declaration to be the Eleventh Kingdom. The colonies were only abandoned during the reign of Caradryel.

Even ignoring the fact that the colonists existed and would have had magical knowledge (with the exception of the Grey Lords, it wouldn't have been advanced as Ulthuan proper's) the Karaz Ankor still would have that time to stew on what ever magical knowledge they had accumulated before hand.

 

[Alratan]

It is the only number we have though, and there aren't any mentions of the Rune of Sorcery being used anywhere else. The wiki does mention that Kurgaz is the one who invented it, but it is the wiki so it is of questionable reliability.


Given that all Runesmiths have a connection to Thungni, I suspect there is no Rune that a Runesmith learns that Thungni is not aware of. I also doubt that your supposition about Durin's Consternation is correct as well. Thungni is connected to Runes and vice versa, if there is anyone who understands how they work it would be him. Well, and the Old Ones too I guess.

And that is not a reason to use said knowledge to do undwarf-like things. There is nothing wrong with expanding our repertoire of Runes, it's the callous treating of secrets that is undwarf like. Which I know is the main goal of this.


The way I read it, Ulthuan proper lost contact with it's colonies, which would have had a great collection of lore regardless. Hence why Caledor II had to smack down the Elthin Arvan's declaration to be the Eleventh Kingdom. The colonies were only abandoned during the reign of Caradryel.

Even ignoring the fact that the colonists existed and would have had magical knowledge (with the exception of the Grey Lords, it wouldn't have been advanced as Ulthuan proper's) the Karaz Ankor still would have that time to stew on what ever magical knowledge they had accumulated before hand.

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On the Rune of Sorcery, I think the wiki is extrapolating from Kurgaz being the person who first earned how to melt gromril* and then make the first Anvils of Doom by inscribing the Rune of Sorcery on them as they cooled. As I say, I can't find anything saying when the Rune was first made, who discovered it, or what else it may have been used for.

If Thungni knew the answer to Durin's Consternation, I strongly doubt he'd have let his son destroy himself over it. Although the Ancestors left some puzzles behind, I don't believe Thungni would fail to teach something so fundamental to runecraft if he knew it. And I suspect that for things like gromril chain the reason Grungni didn't teach it is because his method couldn't be replicated by mortal dwarves. I think Durin's Consternation comes from a lack of theoretical knowledge that he could have passed on if he'd known it.

On undwarf-like, the whole point is that the definition of what's dwarf like is culturally constructed and can and has been changed in the memory of dwarves that are still alive. There's no platonic ideal of dwarfness, the Ancestor Gods radically reshaped what it meant to be a dwarf in their images.

On contact between Ulthuan and the dwarves, the elves could easily have ordered their colonies in the Old World to cut off contact for the duration of the emergency. Being told to cut off trade and communications with their main trading partners would have pissed them off enough to want more independence down the road.

* Which as I observed above, is something Snorri has managed despite it requiring a Snerra tier savant benefiting from two and a half thousand years more general rune development to invent in canon.

 

[kinglugia]

how to melt gromril

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... Then what the fuck have the other dwarfs been doing when the Pure Gromrils are made!? Are they just heated and smacked?

 

[Alratan]

... Then what the fuck have the other dwarfs been doing when the Pure Gromrils are made!? Are they just heated and smacked?

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Probably yes. Forging after heating it enough to soften rather than casting with liquid metal. You can make a weapon or piece of armour that way. Making a solid gromril anvil as a single piece of metal would be impossible though, hence why you'd need something to invent a process to actually melt gromril.

 

[MrHobbit]

On the Rune of Sorcery, I think the wiki is extrapolating from him being the person who learned how to melt gromril and then make the first Anvils of Doom by inscribing the Rune of Sorcery on them as they cooled. As I say, I can't find anything saying when the Rune was first made, who discovered it, or what else it may have been used for.

If Thungni knew the answer to Durin's Consternation, I strongly doubt he'd have let his son destroy himself over it. Although the Ancestors left some puzzles behind, I don't believe Thungni would fail to teach something so fundamental to runecraft if he knew it. And I suspect that for things like gromril chain the reason Grungni didn't teach it is because his method couldn't be replicated by mortal dwarves. I think Durin's Consternation comes from a lack of theoretical knowledge that could be passed on.

On undwarf-like, the whole point is that the definition of what's dwarf like is culturally constructed and can and has been changed in the memory of dwarves that are still alive. There's no platonic ideal of dwarfness, the Ancestor Gods radically reshaped what it meant to be a dwarf in their images.

On contact between Ulthuan and the dwarves, the elves could easily have ordered their colonies in the Old World to cut off contact for the duration of the emergency. Being told to cut off trade and communications with their main trading partners would have pissed them off enough to want more independence down the road.

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We don't know if that is what Durin destroyed himself seeking, and the Ancestors are not perfect. Ancestor Gods they may be, they are not human. They are Dwarfs.

The Ancestors did not fundamentally change Dwarf psychology. Dwarves were always secretive. Dwarves were always distrusting. Dwarves always had a thing about grudges. Dwarves always held a tendency for tradition. The Ancestors just focused the Oaths around more productive means and taught the Dwarves various things which helped them a lot. This was, of course, a big deal, but there is a difference between fundamentally rebuilding Dwarf society and completely ignoring Dwarf psychology.

There is nothing suggesting that the colonies closed themselves off, we only have evidence saying Ulthuan basically forgot about them during the Sundering and they decided to united as one Kingdom, which Caledor II seemed to have smacked down.

 

[tri2]

Can we please focus on the important matter? How do we make more toys and deliver them to the children? Won't anyone think of the children!?

 

[Alratan]

We don't know if that is what Durin destroyed himself seeking, and the Ancestors are not perfect. Ancestor Gods they may be, they are not human. They are Dwarfs.

The Ancestors did not fundamentally change Dwarf psychology. Dwarves were always secretive. Dwarves were always distrusting. Dwarves always had a thing about grudges. Dwarves always held a tendency for tradition. The Ancestors just focused the Oaths around more productive means and taught the Dwarves various things which helped them a lot. This was, of course, a big deal, but there is a difference between fundamentally rebuilding Dwarf society and completely ignoring Dwarf psychology.

There is nothing suggesting that the colonies closed themselves off, we only have evidence saying Ulthuan basically forgot about them during the Sundering and they decided to united as one Kingdom, which Caledor II seemed to have smacked down.

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The Ancestors changed what was considered acceptable behaviour and what wasn't. You're focusing on the conserved factors and asserting they're immutable, while before the fact it would have been easy to claim that characteristics they did change couldn't be. There are radical runesmiths out there in this quest that want to share knowledge more freely. They're still dwarves. How secretive a dwarf is is still culturally constructed. We had the opportunity to start shifting dwarven culture in the Far North a small way towards being less selfish and secretive and more altruistic and sharing. We chose not to take it, but the option was still there.

We're told '2335 (-2188) - After many centuries, the Elves return once more to the Old World. The Dwarfs learn of the civil war amongst the Elves and the treachery of Malekith. The two races begin to trade once more. Bargains are struck and Dwarf craftsmanship reaches new heights of ambition and accomplishment.'

It doesn't say that trade between Ulthuan and the Karaz Ankor begins again, but that the two races begin to trade again. If the elven colonies had still been trading with the dwarves, it would be phrased differently. It specifically notes that this is the point from which dwarven craftsmanship takes off as well.

 

[MrHobbit]

The Ancestors changed what was considered acceptable behaviour and what wasn't. You're focusing on the conserved factors and asserting they're immutable, while before the fact it would have been easy to claim that characteristics they did change couldn't be.

We're told '2335 (-2188) - After many centuries, the Elves return once more to the Old World. The Dwarfs learn of the civil war amongst the Elves and the treachery of Malekith. The two races begin to trade once more. Bargains are struck and Dwarf craftsmanship reaches new heights of ambition and accomplishment.'

It doesn't say that trade between Ulthuan and the Karaz Ankor begins again, but that the two races begin to trade again. If the elven colonies had still been trading with the dwarves, it would be phrased differently. It specifically notes that this is the point from which dwarven craftsmanship takes off as well.

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The conserved factors were the fundamental root of the unacceptable behavior, it was just taken to an unhealthy extreme.

The Elves never left the Old World, so that is almost certainly referring to Ulthuan proper. The Elthin Arvin still covered most of the Old World and we know places like Laurelorn weren't abandoned. I'm also pretty sure the Dwarfs didn't actually know about the Sundering, other than [shit happened], which is part of why Malekith's false flag attacks were taken so poorly.

Either that or the writers of that specific year entry forgot that the Elves had a lot of colonies on the Old World that were in a position to deal with the Dwarves, or the Elthin Arvan declaring themselves the eleventh kingdom was retconned in after the fact. Either way, that year entry is rather questionable in reliability.

 

[Garlak]

If Thungni knew the answer to Durin's Consternation, I strongly doubt he'd have let his son destroy himself over it. Although the Ancestors left some puzzles behind, I don't believe Thungni would fail to teach something so fundamental to runecraft if he knew it. And I suspect that for things like gromril chain the reason Grungni didn't teach it is because his method couldn't be replicated by mortal dwarves. I think Durin's Consternation comes from a lack of theoretical knowledge that he could have passed on if he'd known it.

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Or he might have taken the approach that some knowledge has to be learned and discovered by the individual Dwarf, and so was letting Durin conduct his own research. Or was waiting to teach Durin more, after Durin expanded his own repertoire, but Durin wasn't able to get far enough on his own. Durin's Consternation may just refer to Durin's confusion and inability to understand a thing.

Or, for another approach and simpler answer; he simply didn't know his son was going to get himself killed over it!

We don't know if that is what Durin destroyed himself seeking, and the Ancestors are not perfect. Ancestor Gods they may be, they are not human. They are Dwarfs.

The Ancestors did not fundamentally change Dwarf psychology. Dwarves were always secretive. Dwarves were always distrusting. Dwarves always had a thing about grudges. Dwarves always held a tendency for tradition. The Ancestors just focused the Oaths around more productive means and taught the Dwarves various things which helped them a lot. This was, of course, a big deal, but there is a difference between fundamentally rebuilding Dwarf society and completely ignoring Dwarf psychology.

There is nothing suggesting that the colonies closed themselves off, we only have evidence saying Ulthuan basically forgot about them during the Sundering and they decided to united as one Kingdom, which Caledor II seemed to have smacked down.

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Yeah, this.

Alratan seems to be taking an approach of "Well, whatever the Ancestor Gods do is Dwarfly, and even the things that weren't part of Dwarf society before they did it, became part of Dwarf society after the Ancestor Gods did it; therefore, that means you are free to lay down precedent and it'll become Dwarfy."

Hobbit and I take a more cautious and skeptical or conservative approach to things though. And also believe that it's not just a matter of "Well, they did it, and so it became Dwarfy" but consider the possibility that they were working with Dwarf psychology, traditions, mores, ideology, ideas, things in general, when they did what they did.

That it's not just as simple as: "Well, whatever I trailblaze becomes the new established and traditional path. So therefore, I am free to trailblaze as I want. All that matters is success. If I succeed, or if I do a thing and it becomes popular enough, then that counts as success and is properly Dwarfy. QED."

Where you start from, how you do a thing, how you get there, and where you get... all that matters. Both the journey and the destination matters. The means and the ends all matter.

In fact, even more care should be taken for anything precedent-setting or trailblazing-y. If something you do might end up having societal effects on the level of an Ancestor God? You had damn well better be damn sure about making sure that you leave good effects and echoes. You can't just do a thing and assume it'll be okay because it happened and you succeeded and it altered society or set new precedent so therefore its fine right.

How secretive a dwarf is is still culturally constructed. We had the opportunity to start shifting dwarven culture in the Far North a small way towards being less selfish and secretive and more altruistic and sharing. We chose not to take it, but the option was still there.

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Or maybe we chose to keep Dwarfs more individualistic and free, focused more on family over centralization of power/authority. Individual (or family-based) liberties. Those are good things too. Those are virtues and values too, y'know.

It wasn't just a choice between "obvious good thing and obvious bad thing", where you know what the obvious Greater Good is and we failed to pick the Obvious For The Greater Good Choice and failed to progress towards a more enlightened society and thus failed the cause of positive change and enlightenment.

 

[Alratan]

Or maybe we chose to keep Dwarfs more individualistic and free, focused more on family over centralization of power/authority. Individual (or family-based) liberties. Those are good things too. Those are virtues and values too, y'know.

It wasn't just a choice between "obvious good thing and obvious bad thing", where you know what the obvious Greater Good is and we failed to pick the Obvious For The Greater Good Choice and failed to progress towards a more enlightened society and thus failed the cause of positive change and enl

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Being free to be selfish doesn't mean that it's virtuous to be selfish. Snorri was never going to compel anyone to hand over a rune they invented, that wasn't the question. The question was whether it was morally better to be altruistic than selfish, and we said that it wasn't.

There was no question of centralisation of power or authority, any more than there ever is when you ask for advice from a spiritual leader or a trusted mentor.

The question was 'Should I let other people learn how to make or further develop this life-saving invention or should I keep it a family monopoly so we can get even richer?'. That's not about individualism or freedom whichever way you chose to answer.

Going further into this topic gets rather political, so we should avoid it. There are of course strands of thought that view altruism as an evil to be avoided, but this forum isn't the place to discuss them.

 

[Enohthree]

Being free to be selfish doesn't mean that it's virtuous to be selfish. Snorri was never going to compel anyone to hand over a rune they invented, that wasn't the question.

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Wasn't he?
Like, Dolgi's actions were going to reflect whatever advice we gave. What's your definition of compel here?

 

[Alratan]

Wasn't he?
Like, Dolgi's actions were going to reflect whatever advice we gave. What's your definition of compel here?

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If he was going to disagree with what Snorri suggested using force, the threat or fear of force, or some form of public shaming to extract the knowledge.

Someone valuing your judgement and following your advice after asking for it is not in any way a form of compulsion. If I ask a trusted workplace mentor, say, which of a pair of positions I should apply for next they are not compelling me if I take their advice after they offer it, even if I trust them enough that whichever option they suggest I'd follow.

 

[BungieONI]

Yah it sad but I think the rune research path we got set upon by dolgi runes might be a path to further even lighter weight runes which we can then release allowing other runesmiths to craft regular brana armour circumventing that

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I'm not particularly interested in poking the Weight of Things for a couple of reasons: Dolgi's laid claim to its root and I don't really feel like circumventing his work if he chooses to keep it in house. The second thing is that its another avenue of research, but one that I think is near the bottom of the priority list compared to our other stuff. Thirdly, Dolgi's a nice guy and was genuinely conflicted around the oath he had in mind for Featherweight; the question thus being how widely he is going to be applying his oath about Featherweight to runes derived from it. I kind of believe that if he finds something he judges as even more useful than Featherweight, he'll lean towards full release.

One thing I'm wondering about is if Dolgi will release other runes derived from the Featherweight rune. @soulcake in the hypothetical that Dolgi keeps the Featherweight rune in house, but derives other runes from it, are those on a case by case release basis?

 

[Woltaire]

Wasn't he?
Like, Dolgi's actions were going to reflect whatever advice we gave. What's your definition of compel here?

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no the vote literally said advice soulcake said in a separate post that the entire context was advising and he came to us for advice, if you think snorri advice will always be interpreted as a order that a valid, one I disagree with, he a master runesmith and came to us for advice

I'm not particularly interested in poking the Weight of Things for a couple of reasons: Dolgi's laid claim to its root and I don't really feel like circumventing his work if he chooses to keep it in house. The second thing is that its another avenue of research, but one that I think is near the bottom of the priority list compared to our other stuff. Thirdly, Dolgi's a nice guy and was genuinely conflicted around the oath he had in mind for Featherweight; the question thus being how widely he is going to be applying his oath about Featherweight to runes derived from it. I kind of believe that if he finds something he judges as even more useful than Featherweight, he'll lean towards full release.

One thing I'm wondering about is if Dolgi will release other runes derived from the Featherweight rune. @soulcake in the hypothetical that Dolgi keeps the Featherweight rune in house, but derives other runes from it, are those on a case by case release basis?

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anything that might threaten his stranglehold on the market he will want to keep in house, so if we ask him after we come up with a rune that eliminate all weight hypothetically then he will prob say no keep it in house since the whole point of the keeping rune in house thing was to benefit his clan and this new rune once released would make his rune obsolete
edit: nvm didn't see soulcake post
if he didn't want us to improve on his rune he shouldn't have given us the rune, also his rune was a rune likely improved from a previous lighter rune one all runes are runes improved on previous runes we would be keeping that long tradition going

 

[soulcake]

@soulcake in the hypothetical that Dolgi keeps the Featherweight rune in house, but derives other runes from it, are those on a case by case release basis?

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Yeah. I won't write about every darn thing since a Weapon or Talismanic variant of a Rune won't likely be worth the effort. Though if Dolgi unlocks true flight its obviously significant enough for me to write and likely have a vote on.

 

[Enohthree]

If he was going to disagree with what Snorri suggested using force, the threat or fear of force, or some form of public shaming to extract the knowledge. Someone valuing your judgement and following your advice after asking for it is not in any way a form of compulsion. If I ask a trusted workplace mentor, say, which of a pair of positions I should apply for next they are not compelling me if I take their advice after they offer it, even if I trust them enough that whichever option they suggest I'd follow.

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To stretch this analogy however you're not asking between several neutral options. This is more like if you asked a trusted workplace mentor if you should donate your new holiday bonus like they're doing even if you weren't planning on it, instead of buying better Christmas gifts for your kids.
There is compulsion here even if its not literal threats of force. The compulsion is the sense of shame that can be instilled over picking a certain action instead of another. Non-public shame that could lead to charity as a result, but shame nonetheless.

 

[Woltaire]

To stretch this analogy however you're not asking between several neutral options. This is more like if you asked a trusted workplace mentor if you should donate your new holiday bonus like they're doing even if you weren't planning on it, instead of buying better Christmas gifts for your kids.
There is compulsion here even if its not literal threats of force. The compulsion is the sense of shame that can be instilled over picking a certain action instead of another. Non-public shame that could lead to charity as a result, but shame nonetheless.

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this is a terrible allegory the rune made it so any brana could have armour this is more like asking whether a drug that could potential save ten of thousands of lives maybe hundreds thousands lives be kept in company and sold at high prices because the company small and can only produce so many/ their will always be many many more people who want it then supply or have it patent removed and allow any drug company to make it

 

[BronzeTongue]

Being free to be selfish doesn't mean that it's virtuous to be selfish. Snorri was never going to compel anyone to hand over a rune they invented, that wasn't the question. The question was whether it was morally better to be altruistic than selfish, and we said that it wasn't.

There was no question of centralisation of power or authority, any more than there ever is when you ask for advice from a spiritual leader or a trusted mentor.

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Selfish is an interesting way to describe the dwarves. They are generous to their communities in many many ways, including ones humans don't regularly manage.

The good and the bad thing about dwarves is that they get deeply invested in their work and each other. They're secretive because they care about thing that they've often spent centuries learning and are convinced with some basis that they actually do know best how it should be used.

Or, as in the case with Dolgi, he wants to build something for his family in particular because he wants to leave something special for them. The sort of connection and history that matters to dwarves.

Unilaterally labeling all of that as selfish when the motives are more complicated and more reasonable than stubborn greed is pretty dismissive.

Not min-maxing all of his efforts to meet a particular definition of public good isn't wrong. I'd argue it's not even neutral, but rather good in its own right because he's contributing to the world in his own way even if it's not optimum by other people's standards.

 

[Alratan]

Selfish is an interesting way to describe the dwarves. They are generous to their communities in many many ways, including ones humans don't regularly manage.

The good and the bad thing about dwarves is that they get deeply invested in their work and each other. They're secretive because they care about thing that they've often spent centuries learning and are convinced with some basis that they actually do know best how it should be used.

Or, as in the case with Dolgi, he wants to build something for his family in particular because he wants to leave something special for them. The sort of connection and history that matters to dwarves.

Unilaterally labeling all of that as selfish when the motives are more complicated and more reasonable than stubborn greed is pretty dismissive.

Not min-maxing all of his efforts to meet a particular definition of public good isn't wrong. I'd argue it's not even neutral, but rather good in its own right because he's contributing to the world in his own way even if it's not optimum by other people's standards.

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Let's say I invent a wonder drug, but not only a wonder drug, but something foundational that can probably be developed in multiple different ways. I can either sell it and sell its design to other drug makers and researchers, this will ensure that the most people benefit from the drug and the most new drugs and applications for those drugs based on it will be developed as quickly as possible.

Or I can keep it as secret of my already exceptionally wealthy family. The supply of that drug will be massively restricted and many of the potential derivatives will either take much longer to be developed or may never exist (if they also require knowledge my family won't have). On the up side, my family will be somewhat richer than they would have been, and they'll have the power and status that comes from being the monopoly supplier of something that's in high demand, and they will always be able to look at the formula and know they're that bit better off because of me.

Which is the more virtuous option? Note that the first option doesn't mandate giving the rune design away for nothing. You can still use it to trade for other people's drug formulas which you or your family can then make. All it does is mean you're not insisting on it being a perpetual monopoly of your family.

Now, the question isn't whether I should have a right to choose the later, but whether it's morally praiseworthy for me to do so. I do feel this is a case where the Kantian categorical imperative can be applied. What would happen if everyone always did what I'm about to do? Would I, Dolgi prefer to live in a world where all the runesmiths who'd ever discovered a new rune insisted on keeping it as a family monopoly, or one where they were prepared to exchange them with each other and teach apprentices who could go on to teach non-family members? Dolgi has significantly benefited from being in a world where the later is true, as Snorri taught runes that he'd invented, so it feels hypocritical for him to turn around and deny others something he was given.

Also something can be selfish(depriving and runesmiths brana of a super valuable rune) and altrustic(helping his family establish themselves in runesmithing and making a rune all their own that can be their claim to fame, and when times get tough they can always count on that rune for business) morality even in warhammer is often complicated and not simple at all

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That's not altruistic though. It's still selfish. It may be an understandable selfishness if you don't think your family can manage without owning the monopoly, but that doesn't make it altruistic.

 

[Andmeuths]

I think it will be when we reach the point of a hypothetical 4 rune material.

I mean, its probably going to be earlier than that,likely something to do with Elves and claims we're risking giving up secrets, but a 4 rune material is one I see as likely to piss people off as being 'Attempting to be equal to/surpass the ancestors'.

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We cannot share T5 Runemetal without the agreement of the Brotherhood of Dron , I suspect anymore than we can openly gift the knowledge of Adamantium purification to Any master not inducted into the Brotherhood. And if its going to be openly published to all Runesmiths, it would be at the agreement and consensus of the Brotherhood as a whole. And the Brotherhood would not object if we found a way to purify Adamant even further.

 

[The3rdCorinthian]

I never got the idea that it was meant to be a perpetual monopoly for just his family Just that he'd only teach it to his family. Dolgi strikes me as a person not to begrudge his children if they take the time to learn the rune and ultimately decide to spread it, if only because that connects it back to them.

Unless this was already discussed earlier and disproven. In which case damn did I misunderstand the implications of that choice and am glad I didn't take part in it.

 

[honorthy]

Also something can be selfish(depriving and runesmiths brana of a super valuable rune) and altrustic(helping his family establish themselves in runesmithing and making a rune all their own that can be their claim to fame, and when times get tough they can always count on that rune for business) morality even in warhammer is often complicated and not simple at all

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thinking about morality is waste of time any way morals change from person to person and civilization to civilization

 

[Woltaire]

I never got the idea that it was meant to be a perpetual monopoly for just his family Just that he'd only teach it to his family. Dolgi strikes me as a person not to begrudge his children if they take the time to learn the rune and ultimately decide to spread it, if only because that connects it back to them.

Unless this was already discussed earlier and disproven. In which case damn did I misunderstand the implications of that choice and am glad I didn't take part in it.

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yah no it a perpetual monopoly like dolgi coud change the oath later in his life but once he dies the oath can't be changed and it set in stone

thinking about morality is waste of time any way morals change from person to person and civilization to civilization

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so you think all of philosophy and most of literature is a waste of time?