Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Voting will open in 7 hours, 52 minutes
A friendly reminder to new questers to read the Informational threadmarks and FAQ specifically before asking a question. Links below:

Frequently Asked Questions
Here is the Detailed Rune List
Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:

I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
Last edited:
Quick question: If we're supposed to keep Adamant a secret from the public, would making an Adamant Eye be a good idea? Wouldn't a Pure Gromril Eye work just as well?
The secrecy around adamant creation is more for other dwarfs benefit than Snorri.
Snorri has proven that he does not particularly care for secrets, only the advancement of runecraft.
But other runelords do care for secrets, and would hesitate to share their knowledge of they knew it was going to be spread fast and wide.
A part of the brotherhood's secrecy is also that runesmiths don't traditionally collaborate, but before Snorri's smelter, Adamant creation was ruinously expensive for runelords, so it required pooling resources to be feasible on any scale.

Also, runesmiths are the poster boys for chuuni :V
 
Last edited:
The secret is Adamant creation.

Note, nobody raised a stink about a Hold's King with armor of it.

Nobody raised a stink about Grimnir and his Companions.

Nobody raised a stink about Zharrgal or Barak Azamar or the bolt we killed Kholek with.

It's "merely" a super special awesome metal to most, some Runelord bullshit. Making it is the bit we can't swing about willy nilly.
 
Just a quick question, did we ever figure out what the clue that Thungni gave us on Turn 42 meant? You know this one.

Wherein I have left, yet I remain. Where I have not rested, yet my mark s'upon the bed. Where I may gaze at the stars but see not the moon. Where there can be light yet ought to be dark. Where the land shines only when I do. There, 'pon that land, lies that which only the worthy may handle.
I didn't see any big discussion about it after it was said and with this lull in stuff to talk about it would be good to revisit. For some reason the mention of stars and beds makes me think about the sea floor. I don't really know.
 
The first fallacy here is that Dolgi seeks to be doing something exceptional here. The great majority of runes don't appear to be the exclusive property of specific families. If that were the case then Dolgi would currently know an awful lot fewer runes, and so would his descendants. He basically wants to take out without putting back in to the community bank of knowledge. It's worth noting that this is the most restrictive covenant on a rune we've ever heard of in quest. It's also when there was discussion of putting conditionals on who could learn the Rune of Forged Limb many people supporting what Dori's proposing were adamantly opposed on the grounds, IIRC, that it was inappropriate to bind runesmiths like that.

Dolgi could well be setting a precedent here, as one of Snorri's apprentices, not to maintain the status quo, but to indicate that even less sharing of proprietary runes was acceptable if you have children to pass them onto instead. The possible risk here is encouraging bloodline based restrictions on knowledge being applied on top of master-apprentice lineages more often.

The second fallacy is that this is being framed as the other choice being giving away the rune for free. There's nothing in that option that said that, Dolgi or his descendants could still have asked for payment in exchange for sharing the rune. What Dolgi wants to do is bind his descendants to forbid them to ever do so. For all the waxing lyrical about freedom and individual choice, what this vote was about was about removing freedom and restricting the choices of Dolgi's future apprentices and descendants. Contrary to the claims, this option is the more centralising and authoritarian one, as it's saying that Dolgi should exercise that level of authority and control over other, compelling them to follow his will. The option that truly respects individual choice is the first one. Dolgi can do what he wants with his rune, but so can anyone else he teaches.

The other thing is that this isn't a niche rune like the other restricted distribution runes we've seen. Brana lives being saved is only the least of the Rune of Featherweight's potential. Part of the problem of keeping it to Dolgi's family is that potential may never be realised. The true benefit would be developing an engineering variant that can be applied to wagons, as that would revolutionise travel and logistics across the increasingly thinly spread dwarven realms, and make campaigning much easier.
 
Last edited:
The first fallacy here is that Dolgi seeks to be doing something exceptional here. The great majority of runes don't appear to be the exclusive property of specific families. If that were the case then Dolgi would currently know an awful lot fewer runes, and so would his descendants. He basically wants to take out without putting back in to the community bank of knowledge.
Just pointing this out. This is also a fallacy as in fact the majority of all runes could be family secrets without influencing how many Snorri knows. Or influencing if Snorri even knows that he does know them.
It would just mean that new runes exist. And soulcake couldn't be bothered to double or tripple the size of the Rune List with runes neither Snorri or the questors knows exist.

And people putting into the community bank of knowledge are actually kinda rare. And they often gatekeep them behind their own trials like Gotri or Mastership like Snorri did.
And, putting back into the bank of knowledge can be politically different as seen when Snorri got into an argument in the second conclave, "These are runes that everyone has a right to know" is close enough to "These are runes that everyone ought to know" which is tantamount to commanding other runesmiths that it can tug beards. And as a non Runelord Dolgi might not even be in a position to offer to set up similar trials.

Honestly if we want to talk about how Dolgi isn't putting back into the community, can we point out that he's never taken an apprentice? Shocking!
 
Just pointing this out. This is also a fallacy as in fact the majority of all runes could be family secrets without influencing how many Snorri knows. Or influencing if Snorri even knows that he does know them.
It would just mean that new runes exist. And soulcake couldn't be bothered to double or tripple the size of the Rune List with runes neither Snorri or the questors knows exist.

And people putting into the community bank of knowledge are actually kinda rare. And they often gatekeep them behind their own trials like Gotri or Mastership like Snorri did.
And, putting back into the bank of knowledge can be politically different as seen when Snorri got into an argument in the second conclave, "These are runes that everyone has a right to know" is close enough to "These are runes that everyone ought to know" which is tantamount to commanding other runesmiths that it can tug beards. And as a non Runelord Dolgi might not even be in a position to offer to set up similar trials.

Honestly if we want to talk about how Dolgi isn't putting back into the community, can we point out that he's never taken an apprentice? Shocking!

If most runes were family secrets I think this would have been mentioned somewhere in the last two thousand pages. It would have been very relevant when the conversations about adopting Karstah into the clan were happening, for example.

And runes can diffuse out into the community without making them freely available to everyone at once. Every time Runelords or Masters make a rune trade, or a master teaches a travelling journeyman the runes the community as a whole knows grows broader and deeper. That's what would have happened to Dolgi's rune if he didn't impose bloodline restrictions on who it could be taught by and to.

That's the issue here; that Dolgi is apparently being extraordinarily restrictive. There's no test a visiting journeyman could ever pass to learn the Rune of Featherweight if he had the misfortune not be born into the privileged bloodline. That seems to be the current standard, that journeymen can take a test, and if they're worthy, they will be taught a Master's signature rune.

And as for apprentices, Dolgi is contributing in his own way by making apprentices for other people.

On that note, I wonder if Fjolla will ever have children now she's married. There's no reason for dwarves to have similar female fertility patterns to humans.
 
Last edited:
The first fallacy here is that Dolgi seeks to be doing something exceptional here. The great majority of runes don't appear to be the exclusive property of specific families. If that were the case then Dolgi would currently know an awful lot fewer runes, and so would his descendants. He basically wants to take out without putting back in to the community bank of knowledge. It's worth noting that this is the most restrictive covenant on a rune we've ever heard of in quest. It's also when there was discussion of putting conditionals on who could learn the Rune of Forged Limb many people supporting what Dori's proposing were adamantly opposed on the grounds, IIRC, that it was inappropriate to bind runesmiths like that.

Dolgi could well be setting a precedent here, as one of Snorri's apprentices, not to maintain the status quo, but to indicate that even less sharing of proprietary runes was acceptable if you have children to pass them onto instead. The possible risk here is encouraging bloodline based restrictions on knowledge being applied on top of master-apprentice lineages more often.

The second fallacy is that this is being framed as the other choice being giving away the rune for free. There's nothing in that option that said that, Dolgi or his descendants could still have asked for payment in exchange for sharing the rune. What Dolgi wants to do is bind his descendants to forbid them to ever do so. For all the waxing lyrical about freedom and individual choice, what this vote was about was about removing freedom and restricting the choices of Dolgi's future apprentices and descendants. Contrary to the claims, this option is the more centralising and authoritarian one, as it's saying that Dolgi should exercise that level of authority and control over other, compelling them to follow his will. The option that truly respects individual choice is the first one. Dolgi can do what he wants with his rune, but so can anyone else he teaches.

The other thing is that this isn't a niche rune like the other restricted distribution runes we've seen. Brana lives being saved is only the least of the Rune of Featherweight's potential. Part of the problem of keeping it to Dolgi's family is that potential may never be realised. The true benefit would be developing an engineering variant that can be applied to wagons, as that would revolutionise travel and logistics across the increasingly thinly spread dwarven realms, and make campaigning much easier.

You could consider that Dolgi is doing setting a trial, just one that is dependent on his bloodline. "You want the rune and the chance to share it freely, marry into my clan,"
 
The first fallacy here is that Dolgi seeks to be doing something exceptional here. The great majority of runes don't appear to be the exclusive property of specific families. If that were the case then Dolgi would currently know an awful lot fewer runes, and so would his descendants. He basically wants to take out without putting back in to the community bank of knowledge. It's worth noting that this is the most restrictive covenant on a rune we've ever heard of in quest. It's also when there was discussion of putting conditionals on who could learn the Rune of Forged Limb many people supporting what Dori's proposing were adamantly opposed on the grounds, IIRC, that it was inappropriate to bind runesmiths like that.

Dolgi could well be setting a precedent here, as one of Snorri's apprentices, not to maintain the status quo, but to indicate that even less sharing of proprietary runes was acceptable if you have children to pass them onto instead. The possible risk here is encouraging bloodline based restrictions on knowledge being applied on top of master-apprentice lineages more often.
This supposition is incredibly unlikely. Dwarfs are incredibly secretive, and I will literally eat my fucking shoe if @soulcake says that Dolgi is the only Dwarf in the history of the entire fucking Karaz Ankor to restrict a Rune to his family.

It is fairly common for Runesmiths to only take apprentices from their own Clan, which is what Dolgi is going to do.

You need to stop putting the Rune of Featherweight on such a pedestal, it is not some sort of life saving drug. Even if it had been released to the general population, it would still be a luxury item for the extremely wealthy. Runes are not cheap, and Kraka Drakk is very much the exception in their promulgation.
 
In what way? It just treats the rune as a family secret to be shared only by those deemed worthy of being family. I'm sure there are plenty of other things in dwarf culture treated like that, beer stonebread recipes, specific ways to make a crossbow whatever.

I'm not sure that they are. Guild secrets passed through lineages of teachers and students seems to be the general way these things work at the moment.

Look at how Valaya taught the dwarves in general to write and to brew, Grungni taught them to mine, Smednir to work metal, and Morgrim to construct devices. Those guilds don't seem to be restricted to the descendants of those ancestors passing on family specific secrets.

There are clans associated with professions but the skills don't seem to be associated with bloodlines.
 
I'm not sure that they are. Guild secrets passed through lineages of teachers and students seems to be the general way these things work at the moment.

Look at how Valaya taught the dwarves in general to write and to brew, Grungni taught them to mine, Smednir to work metal, and Morgrim to construct devices. Those guilds don't seem to be restricted to the descendants of those ancestors passing on family specific secrets.

There are clans associated with professions but the skills don't seem to be associated with bloodlines.

I do not think the ancestor gods are a good example there... they are kind of exceptional by nature. Let's just ask @soulcake how unusual are family secrets in crafts more generally not just making runes?
 
"Right. It's about what I ought to do with the Rune. It was my intent to make it something of a specialty among my family. I would still teach any apprentices I would have, and any close friends or those whom I trusted like yourself, but with the stipulation that the latter could not share it themselves," Your student admits, clasping and unclasping his fingers.
----------
Think this means Dolgi would be willing to teach, for example, Snerra and Fjolla.

So there still is a "trial"; that trial is just "become a close friend or extremely trusted by me." (Well, or, "marry into the clan" as DragonParadox said, heh.)
The first fallacy here is that Dolgi seeks to be doing something exceptional here. The great majority of runes don't appear to be the exclusive property of specific families. If that were the case then Dolgi would currently know an awful lot fewer runes, and so would his descendants. He basically wants to take out without putting back in to the community bank of knowledge.
MSpellspite, Rune of Strongarm (and presumably the Master Rune of Gotri Hammerspite); both have a "do not share" clause. Both of them appear to be runes that are only learnable by going to the Runelord and undertaking their test or challenge and proving worthy of the knowledge. (Though IIRC MSpellspite I think had a "When you yourself are a Runelord..." clause or something like that.) So no, this is not actually utterly exceptional or unknown of or unthinkable of amongst Runesmiths.
The other thing is that this isn't a niche rune like the other restricted distribution runes we've seen. Brana lives being saved is only the least of the Rune of Featherweight's potential. Part of the problem of keeping it to Dolgi's family is that potential may never be realised. The true benefit would be developing an engineering variant that can be applied to wagons, as that would revolutionise travel and logistics across the increasingly thinly spread dwarven realms, and make campaigning much easier.
Ah yes, so; 'Congratulations! You have discovered something that has been determined to be useful or valuable or foundational by us. Therefore we demand that you share it and not be selfish.' That'll go great with everybody. (To exaggerate for effect.)

This sort of thing you're talking about here -- "potential may never be realized" "The true benefit" -- is going against an individual Runesmith's conception of his art and deciding for him. You've decided that Dolgi's creation is both too precious as it is now -- as an armor rune -- and as it might potentially be, as an Engineering variant, and that this potential value cannot be left in the hands of Dolgi and his family. A pretty damning indictment of Dolgi and his entire lineage of Runesmiths. "You can't be trusted to make the decision on what to do with this knowledge."

(Or maybe it can just be more blunt than that. Should we just outright wonder about selfishness and altruism? "Should people be allowed to choose to be selfish?" To which the answer is "Yes, yes they should be." Because people should be able to decide about the things they've created and invented and own those things. Charity and altruism should not be mandated and people shouldn't be browbeaten into doing so. Aside from that though, this whole thing has had my skeptic hackles be up a lot, as I'd said somewhere on the previous page.)

And "He basically wants to take out without putting back in to the community bank of knowledge", as if Dolgi isn't being productive by making Brana armor and teaching his descendants and his descendants making armor and experimenting with it. Or just... You realize that this sort of behavior or activity isn't exactly out of line with Dwarf values and beliefs, right? Which means that this is casting judgment on every Dwarf who acts like this? (... Also, if you didn't want some amount of secrecy, maybe you shouldn't be dealing with the most secretive and mysterious of Dwarfs; the Runesmith.) Are they all being failures and ungrateful churls?

Dolgi isn't doing things according to your demands and expectations of Runesmiths but, y'know what, that's fine. Because Runesmiths should be free to do what they want -- including being secretive or mysterious or with extreme standards or other stereotypically Dwarfy or stereotypically Runesmithy things -- rather than being commanded or controlled or herded by any one smith other than the Ancestor God himself. But sufficiently exalted Runesmiths can have a shitload of sway over things, and if they're not careful can make others march to the beat of their drums. So it's important to be careful about that. As we saw Alric Thungnisson and Yorri talk about.
"What he's also asking is if he'd be allowed to figure it out for himself," your Master clarifies.

Alric looks at Yorri quizzically.

"..so long as he maintained proper discretion I see no reason why he could not?"

"Thungnisson, I hope you realize you've effectively given the lad Carte Blanche to go mad over this mystery," Yorri comments, taking a long swig from his mug.

"He is a Runesmith, a Runelord, the only orders we follow are when we are apprentices and after that, only the ones we swear to. We lead ourselves, we follow at our discretion, and only Thungni can claim either right or worthiness to lead us all," Alric retorts.

Yorri snorts.

"Just because the order is phrased as a request Thungnisson doesn't mean it isn't an order. You refuse to see the sort of power you wield, as ever," he snipes back, though without any heat.
So why is it that Dolgi can make oaths of his family and expect them to be followed? Without it being centralizing and authoritarian and etc? Because it's HIS direct family and clan.

Because there's a difference there, and that difference matters.

And because it's not the kind of command or oath that can spread throughout the Karaz Ankor and compel other Runesmiths; it only holds for Dolgi's family. ... Also, it's an oath that is meant to increase the prestige/value/rarity/whatever of Dolgi's family. I don't think most families would object to that kind of thing. 'Oh no. Pull my arm why don't you.' It's not something against the family's best interests, basically.

And yes I'm aware that it does, in fact, bind other Runesmiths because they're asked not to pass it down. -_- That's because I was comparing it to a Runelord trying to make other Runesmiths act the way he wants or follow his values or political goals. Versus a family patriarch deciding for his family and descendants, and making a decision that impacts their wealth and prestige and also sets a course of what they will be specializing in. (Because let's also consider the fact that Dolgi isn't just making the decision to keep something secret to his family. He's also making the decision of "having his family specialize in <thing>." That, too, is a decision and one with a point. It means that Dolgi's family branch will have a family specialization to excel at and standards to meet. There'll be the weight of expectation and of a Longbeard's/Living Ancestor's expectations. This too is a commitment.)

Merely keeping a secret and respecting an oath is different then trying to get Runelords and Runesmiths to follow along with your agenda or goals or politics.

On another note though... This goes into values differences between humans and dwarfs, but...

While I believe it was said in Divided Loyalties, I think it still holds true here? Dwarfs believe that if there is nobody worthy to know a secret... then that secret should be lost. Dwarfs also value secrecy and privacy and oaths and stubbornness. They... value it. Somebody pursuing an oath or showing stubbornness or refusing to give up a secret no matter what, is somebody acting alongside Dwarf values and virtues.

Secrecy and exclusivity and extremely high standards (and strong views on ownership/wealth/gold and grudges and oaths) is part of Dwarf values, psychology, culture, and so on.

Playing into that can be cool. Playing against type, conversely, shouldn't be free and automatically assumed to be a good and the right thing to do.

And part of what this means is that arguing against secrecy or exclusivity on the grounds of it automatically being more virtuous... well, it might be true for humans, but not necessarily so for Dwarfs.
 
Voting will open in 7 hours, 52 minutes
Back
Top