- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Because it might get back to Kurenai and we've never lost a spouse.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It is still potentially worth noting that not only did Hazou also lose a long term lover but that it was also a very recent loss
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm open to different wording if you have some.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Oh i meant that in a general sense, not necessarily in the plan itself, my b
- Location
- United States
I'm really confused how ANBU ended up interrogating random genin, considering the plan was to kidnap and then mind-dive as many members of the Loremaster clan as possible. This was, among other things, an attempt to obtain possibly crucial information on the Dragons before it was erased forever and seemed to have been prioritized accordingly by Asuma.
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- Location
- Yes.
It's entirely possible that they were interrogated but we didn't get the information.
- Location
- United States
I don't feel like this is the time or place to start including Kagome. The stakes are too high. You don't invite the newbie along when you're on the back foot and down two scores with 3 minutes left. Sure, what you suggest would be a good idea, but when we are discussing politics with just the clan, and the stakes are lower.
Kagome's whole thing is loyalty. He would literally die before doing what you're suggesting here. It's making me lack confidence in your other predictions.
we should talk to kagome about this instead of assuming he's wrong, lest we repeat the debacle. although i suspect he's referring to the jinchuriki curse, which akatsuki said naruto is little affected by.
- Location
- Not a Burned Down House
A couple of weeks ago I put forward the idea of doing a weekly cooking night with Kagome. We go buy some cool Akimichi cooking books and every friday (or the Elemental Nations equiavalent) we cook a new recipe with Kagome.
This seems like a very nice and easy way to show that we love Kagome outside of pure utility and has, as far as I can tell, no downside except losing some time.
This seems like a very nice and easy way to show that we love Kagome outside of pure utility and has, as far as I can tell, no downside except losing some time.
- Location
- Washington, USA
The conservative faction fully commits to their own philosophy, and gains strength thereby; to do any less ourselves would be self-sabotaging cowardice.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Since akane died, Kagome is spending p much all his time sealing or reading sealing notes to get better faster and open the rift, so I legitimately expect him not to be interested in "wasting" this time. Also, a lot of the chill/downtime fluff ends up offscreened (and is potentially happening already and we just don't see it) so alas I don't see this idea changing anything personally.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Hazō suspects that Asuma didn't want to put certain details in print and would (might?) have been willing to fill them in verbally. It's unfortunate that the report wasn't delivered to you until after Asuma's death. Some discrete inquiries lead you to believe that the redacted information is not available anymore and likely never will be.
(OOC: Yes, your proposal is a good one. Thanks.)
- Location
- United States
Asuma gathered the lore (for us!) around January 30. We asked Asuma for the lore in person on February 8. He died on March 15. This was literally one of our (and his!) top priorities and the only reason we weren't repeatedly asking for it in-character was because you told us you needed time to figure out what it was.
It feels really unfair that as a result of that we are permalocked out of the information.
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- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
You're completely correct about Kagome's sense of loyalty, but I think that @Dictator4Hire may have meant "someone else will make friends with Kagome, Kagome will leak information without realizing it, and the 'someone' in question will use that information to hurt the Gōketsu."
I'm sorry you feel that way.
The report said only hokage (Asuma) was supposed to read it, and that he should destroy it after reading it. Although I dunno why he added notes to the report if he was gonna destroy it. Did he not destroy it for some reason? And then Tsunade read it, since she was hokage. And instead of following instruction and destroying it (since hokage don't need to obey anyone) she sent the report to Hazou (edit: with instructions that hazou could ignore the warning that report for hokage eyes only)?
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Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
- Location
- how about no
If Kagome wants to be more involved in political planning and accepts reasonable stipulations for the resulting responsibilities I agree absolutely that we should start with clan only meetings with Mari testing him afterwards to see how effectively he can safeguard information from social manipulation. Having Kagome enter the Hokage election meeting to give any address to Leaf's assembled elites would be irresponsible on every Goketsu's part.
Kagome also has a track record of being comically bad at keeping his composure in front of outsiders who are not immediately hostile or appear to be too dangerous for him to handle. Capitalizing on that allowed us to talk with him and begin our recruitment process of him in the first place (link to Ch 16).
It would never be his intent to betray us as that would be unthinkable to him, but it was also never his intention to get involved with other ninja while he was living as a hermit on his own before we barged into his life.
Kagome can change and it is our responsibility as his friendly neighborhood hivemind to make sure all of those changes are healthy for him rather than let an opposed outside actor leverage his secretly friendly nature for nefarious ends.
EJ groks it.
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Seconding this.
I am disappointed, but not, ultimately, surprised.
I will be very disinclined to vote for anything that pursues Forbidden Lore in the future. Historically, it very rarely works out and I feel like it is a waste of time and energy.
- Location
- U.S.
Thirding this. If _The_Bomb is correct in that the authors stated that they were delaying the Lore for OOC reasons, then we should not be denied it for IC reasons.
Firstly, it seems moderately likely to me that we would have received the Lore before Asuma's death without further IC prompting, although I would need to further investigate the exact chapters to get a firmer understanding. Beyond that, we almost certainly would have received it if we had disregarded your OOC requests and continued to push IC for the Lore.
Would you rather, in the future, that we ignore your OOC requests when they conflict with IC goals, lest it result in a second situation like this? That is the takeaway from this situation, to me.
- Location
- Yes.
Speaking as someone who mostly just wanted to know whether we should have gotten the Forbidden Lore in-story, I'm OK with this. The necessarily OPSEC-sensitive nature of the captures, interrogations, and summarizing of information meant that there's only a bare handful of people who could have participated in the entire enterprise, and all of them are very busy with other, more critical duties.
- Location
- Pacific standard
Okay, so this is pretty clearly Isanese ninja. I'll hold some doubt on that just in case, but I think thats a safe assumption.
Okay so this stock response is 41 characters long. TODO: check every line Yuno has every said in case any of them are relevant and exactly 41 characters. If the characters are smart enough to redact more than they need to so character analysis doesn't work then boo, stop having good enough information security to fool 5th dimensional beings with open access to a long, detailed historical record of their world. Grumble grumble ninja op
Hmmm Hidden Rock would make perfect sense, but that's a total of 11 characters including the space, while the redaction is 10 characters. The only other options that come to mind are Akatsuki, which doesn't make much sense, and Jashinists, which would make a lot of sense. Curiously, if it's talking about Jashinists, we know that this is *Tsunade* reading the report and leaving notes, not Asuma.
FASCINATING. WHAT.
Authority to use chakra? ChakrAI confirmed.
I'm pretty sure we've seen other people say that the sage *made* chakra, rather than helping some humans access it - this feels closer to the truth.
10 characters, 10 characters, 10 characters. Hmm. Raiyoke is seven, Mori is four, Nara is four. Either this isn't talking about the Five, or the fricken characters have good enough information security to foil 5th dimensional beings with open access to a detailed history of their world and infinite time to explore it. AAAAAA
It's totally the Five and Leaf infosec is just annoyingly good WHICH MAKES IT EVEN WEIRDER THAN AKANE DIED HELLO
Well, nice to have confirmation none of the paths are metaphorical. I think this [REDACTED] is either Ui or Lord Ui.
'Higher realms' ahh so there's a hierarchy in reincarnation, it's not binary. We are looking at pseudo buddhism after all. That's actually probably one of the bigger lore drops here
Except this doesn't seem to match with what we've seen? Is the afterlife portal to the Naraka path? That doesn't make sense - I think it's to the *Preta* path, where the soul eaters eat memories. From Isan's POV I think it's the following
Deva Path
Asura Path
Human Path
Animal Path
Preta Path
Naraka Path
I think this is wrong and based on a misunderstanding. I think it actually looks something more like
Deva / Animal Path
Human / Asura Path
Naraka / Preta Path
We ?know? / ?think? that the animal Path is artificial, made by the Sage as a reward for his companions after the veil between Paths was strengthened. How did he strengthen the veil? .... I'm starting to think he just mashed complementary Paths together. We've been confused the entire story because the world LOOKS LIKE THE ASURA PATH, A WORLD OF CONSTANT BATTLE. SERIOUSLY IF THIS ISNT THE WAR PATH WHAT DOES THE WAR PATH LOOK LIKE. *ahem*.
Super strong ninja are known as Asura. OH GOD MAYBE THE CANON RESURRECTION STUFF IS ACTUALLY CANON AND CERTAIN S RANKER KITS HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR THE ENTIRETY OF EN HISTORY
"Wait, do you mean our bowling team?"
"respectively,
1. All of them
2. All of them
3. All of them
4. All of them"
"try finger, but, hole?"
Okay so Isan has conflated the Dragons and the Five. I don't know if that conflation is correct. Also, scary remembering Isan had a EM fighting style, and EM could absolutely be the default exercise for turning chakra into elemental Fire
Sooooooooo vibes for canon Naruto summoning shenanigans?
Need to check who Hooryuu is, I think he's in the Pangolin summoner lineage?
Oh thank god, they exiled it right? Indestructible effects are really annoying, but permanent ex-
WHY WOULD YOU USE IXALAN'S BINDING ON EMRAKUL
"Isn't that a nickname for your mom? I dunno man I'd ask pops"
Okay so the rabbit moon goddess stuff is one thing, but what if this is all absolutely literal and there's a floating mass of sentient darkness in the heart of the moon. huh. That sounds less absurd than I thought it did when I consider the cave of mild peril/cave of violet flames
"uhhh it's pretty dangerous but the furs and oil are nice??"
Information security? MAD?
PathS? PATHS? EXCUSE ME
wait so Isan thinks the current situation is worse than it was before the Old gods died, and they've been living a sheltered fairly equitable life. Fuuuuuuuuck.
based
cringe
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Can we please have an honest talk about the miscommunication?
Personally I feel like there is something major that I am missing. Something that is obvious to all the QMs but that they seemingly haven't communicated to me in a way that I noticed and understood, which would explain not just why Asuma and his ANBU didn't manage to provide Hazō some real information from real Isan sources, but also why Hazō did not feel the need to dig any further, or even suspect that stuff was being hidden from him.
There's the uncharitable read of it. That would be that the QMs collectively didn't have the time and spoons to collate some kind of lore dump that the players didn't really "earn" anyway and that with Asuma's death they have an excuse to never have to really do that at all.
But in this case I am actually pretty sure that this uncharitable interpretation is actually wrong. Not just because of my trust towards you all, but also because that Discord post that got linked made it seem like at least Velorien didn't think that getting anything other than random basic stuff sourced from Isan genin was realistic. The issue is that I don't have an actual clear picture of what happened instead. I don't have a theory of mind that explains why things ended up being as they are. I just feel a mix of confusion and disappointment.
Worse, I don't know what I should do different in a future similar situation in order to not have similar results. I don't know if our mistake was IC and we should have included something proactive in our plans that we didn't, or if it was OOC and we should have communicated better with the QMs so that they understand our expectations and address them better (even if just by explaining to us exactly why our expectations are unrealistic from a simulationist viewpoint), or if we should have, I don't know, steered away from the topic ourselves because of some completely meta burden we were putting on you that would not have resulted in what we wanted for reasons that have nothing to do with simulationism and instead is about spoons and QM fun and such.
Here's my understanding of the actual events:
- Based on the winning plan that the players voted in Hazō tells Asuma that Isan might have vital lore, partially as a reason to stave off its destruction.
- Asuma concurs. He proposes targeted mind-dive into members of Isan's loremaster Clan. He can propose this because he has at least one ANBU who is of the Yamanaka Clan.
- The chapter in which Isan's destruction happens is written. There is no scene that in any way deals with Isan lore.
- Players ask for Isan lore over a long period of time. At some point this takes on meme status.
- The QMs for a long time do not provide said Isan lore. No clear IC reasons for Hazō not getting access to it is given. Player perception is that the reasons for the delay are OOC and that in theory Asuma had the lore available and Hazō wanted it and Asuma knew that Hazō wanted it and that Asuma forwarding it to Hazō wasn't much of a time hog or ordeal for Asuma.
- I do not actually know the OOC reason for the delay. Pure speculation on my part would be that coming up with such lore was a significant world-building exercise with potentially major plot repercussions and that coordinating this between three QMs and their preferences actually made it harder instead of reducing the workload.
- The lore dump doesn't happen before Asuma dies. The QMs (seem to) want to reconcile this without jumping back and forth in the timeline.
- The lore dump remains a major undertaking and so continues to be put off. A good amount of the active player base now frequently meme-votes to finally get that lore.
- The lore dump happens. There is a big divide between what players expected it to be and what QMs delivered.
- I am disappointed (which can happen and is my own problem) and confused (which I would like to resolve with the help of the QMs).
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- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The QMs have made and repeatedly delivered on a staggering commitment to simulationism. They've also always been incredibly fair. They don't twist the story to suit what they want or find convenient.
I think the least we can do is to extend them the benefit of the doubt, and I do mean the least. Plausible explanations exist, including 'Asuma provided Shikamaru with the information pulled from the mind of the Isanese, and they mutually decided that there was nothing obviously relevant and that history would not be kind to the people who provided Goketsu Hazo with information he didn't need'.
Pursuing hidden and forbidden knowledge as a low-power and relatively low-status individual who has a reputation for making big moves based on scraps of knowledge which have high-variance outcomes is going to be difficult verging on impossible unless we dedicate significant time to the endeavor. We can try to be clever, but the fact of the matter is that it's an extremely long shot without direct access to a primary source who wants to share what they know. I don't think that an approach of 'try to find big dumps of information' is an approach grounded in reality.
Let's approach a Dog bard, or have a serious conversation with Ma and Pa, or ask Tsunade what she knows, but let's also recognize that trying to find this sort of stuff with modern resources would be extremely challenging and Hazo doesn't even live in a culture where 'legibly record your business transactions' is widely-accepted common knowledge. Orochimaru probably knows very little - he certainly hasn't killed any Dragons - and he's spent years and years searching for this exact sort of thing as a certified asskicker without any obvious scruples.
It's entirely possible that we simply don't have access to a repository of hidden lore because the people who know it regard it as an infohazard and act accordingly - they seek it out and burn it. It's also entirely possible that patching together the available stories and songs would take years of dedicated focus and that there are no shortcuts.
But the main thrust of this is that I get pretty annoyed when I see people approach the QMs (providers of free entertainment! cooperators in prisoners dilemmas! really nice people!) from any position other than 'I don't understand this and I am inclined to attribute this lack of understanding to the fact that I have imperfect knowledge as opposed to anything else'. It scans (to me) as arrogant, inconsiderate, and rude.
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